[TraditionsCSR]

We here at Traditions Firearms are thinking about using our ALS 2100 autoloading shotgun series as the basis for a new model oriented toward the practical/3-gun market. For those unfamiliar with the gun, the ALS is a gas operated design with a relatively quick cycling time -- Mr. Patrick Kelley of "Front Sight" magazine was able to shoot .12 second splits with it. External design is similar to the Beretta autoloaders, but the trigger and gas systems are quite different. It's made in Turkey.

We've built a couple of prototypes that work very well, but would like to know what particular features would be most desirable to shooters. Who better to ask than the knowledgeable folks at THR?

We shot the heck out of one of the prototypes this weekend, with great results (i.e., perfect functioning, with hits that were almost frighteningly quick and easy). This prototype is a 12 gauge with 24" vent rib barrel, black synthetic furniture, extended mag tube (8+1 capacity), red fiber optic front sight, and a 45mm red dot sight mounted on the rib forward of the receiver.

We'd be initially interested in the thoughts of experienced practical/3-gun shooters, while keeping in mind that this shotgun would be directed more at entry-level or new shooters rather than the guys and gals shooting at stratospheric competitive levels. Thanks in advance -- we very much appreciate any and all input.


Mike Barham
Traditions Customer Service

[Preacherman]

Sounds like a great idea - and if you can come in at a more reasonable price than the Remington/Winchester factory offerings, many of us will bless you! Here's what I'd like to see.

1. RELIABILITY!!! I've done courses and participated in events where literally every single semi-auto shotgun present (including Benellis, Remingtons, Berettas, Winchesters, Saigas, etc.) malfunctioned at least once during a course of fire. Some of this was due to operator error, but most was due to finicky semi-autos that couldn't handle a lot of dust, a hold that wasn't firm enough, etc. If you can build a "shooter-proof shotgun" that can also handle normal environmental conditions, that would be outstanding.

2. Stock configuration. I'd like to see a stock that can be "fitted" to the individual shooter, to obtain a proper cheek weld, etc. This need not be anything very expensive or elaborate: perhaps a set of "add-on" spacers for length (to accommodate length-of-pull between 13" and 14½"), a set of cheek-pieces made of sorbothane or some other recoil-absorbing substance that can be fitted to the stock to raise the comb to the appropriate level for the shooter, etc. Most of us do the latter by adding our own padding, but if you could make available a set of fitted pads, this would be both cleaner-looking and more profitable for you (as an add-on accessory).

3. Good trigger. I'd like to see a trigger at least in the 3-4 pound class, with a good clean break and not too "mushy". If it can be adjustable, so much the better. This is one area where I won't compromise: I'd gladly pay $200-$300 more for a shotgun with a good trigger (or one that can be made to be good) compared to one with all of the same features, but a bad or non-fixable trigger.

4. Finish. This will be a practical shotgun - it's going to get hammered! It needs to be in a finish that will withstand weathering, sand, bouncing around in car trunks, etc. Something long-lasting and hard-wearing would be nice.

5. Sights. Let's have sights that are tough enough to stand up to thousands of rounds without shooting loose: easy to see, especially in low light conditions for night shoots (Tritium insert in the front sight?): and reliably and repeatably adjustable when needed (preferably without special tools).

That's my initial take on the subject. Good luck building it - if you get all this right, I'll buy three (and I'm not joking!!!).

A final thought: some of us (including me) are not great fans of the "evil black gun" syndrome so common in practical shooting sports. I'm partial to wood furniture rather than black plastic. How about offering wood as an option? Maybe some different colors for the plastic? I'm not suggesting pink or lavender, as was discussed in another thread recently ( :D ), but green, or brown, might be cosmetically pleasing. Just a personal thought...

[Correia]

I’m a 3 gun shooter, and one of the 3 gun match directors for www.udpl.net. I’m also one of the competition shooting moderators here at THR. To say I’m addicted to 3 gun would be a drastic understatement. I’m also a shotgun nut, as that is by far what I do best in 3 gun.

I agree with much of what Preacherman already said, but I have got to hammer on one point. Reliability. And we need reliability with both heavy and light loads. Many matches require buckshot, others require only bird. However we need to be able to practice with bird shot because it is cheap. It has got to be utterly reliable, especially in sand and dust. If you look at most of the big money 3 gun matches probably 70% of them are shot in the desert, and for some reason, they are always windy.

It has to be durable. Really durable. Hard core 3 gunners are not your average weekend shooter. We go through lots of rounds, and we get our guns hot. Parts breaking down is a huge pain. Little stupid rings and pins that break down tick us off.

Reloading. It has got to be easy to reload. The loading gate must be easy to access, and the controls have got to be big and easy to use. Sharp edges around the loading port suck beyond all comprehension. We are thumbing shells in while moving, so the easier to load the better. The bolt release button should be placed someplace that it can be hit quickly and instinctively.

Trigger pull must be decent. We don’t expect Perazzi trap gun triggers, but we like our Benellies and Remingtons. That is what we are used to.

24 inch barrel is good for USPSA style 3 gun, but some of the bigger matches (like www.wc3gun.com for example) require a shorter barrel length. I think a 20 inch tube would be a great thing to offer.

Same with sights. Open class shotguns are going to be run with red dots, but lots of matches don’t allow dot sights on the shotguns. Personally I run a bead. I think a set of good sights would be wonderful, but have a mount set up for dot sights for our open class brethren. Rifle sights work fine, so do ghost rings. Iron sights are a must have. Iron sights that work well with slugs would be nice.

Operation should still be reliable with the use of a side saddle or butt cuff. (I like www.3gungear.com the best myself). This is a problem with some recoil operated guns when you hang lots of junk off them, so many of the side saddle users you see are running gas guns like the 1100 or the X2 instead of Benellies.

Offering stocks in a color other than black is a good idea. Black stocks get hot in the sun. The new Rem Competition Master has a gray stock. I like gray or green plastic, and my competition shotgun actually has a wood stock.

A good recoil pad is absolutely necessary. Like I said, we shoot a LOT.

Having a back bored barrel would be nice, better patterns and less recoil. However I don’t know how much something like that is going to cost.

If you can get us a reliable and tough shotgun, already set up for 3 gun, and you can do it for well under the price of the Remington (that we have to spend another $100-$200 to trick out with after market stuff) then you will have a real winner.

And I am always available for product testing. :D

[Jim Watson]

I don't have the experience of the two previous posters, but I have done a little 3-gun and the occasional sidematch.

To repeat Correa, the Practical Shotgun must be easy to reload. Almost all the shotgun stages I have ever seen have been reloading contests. It doesn't matter how fast and accurate the shooter is for the first eight, getting the next eight in is the key to success.

[Dave McCracken]

My co-Moderators hammered it down pretty tight, let me just emphasize a couple things.

Reliability is paramount. And it has to be reliable under Field and Emergency condtions.

Easily topped off.

Durability, on the order of 30-50K heavy rounds before parts replacement is a minumum.

A clean safe, 4 lb trigger.

A short LOP stock for smaller folk and when wearing armor.

Able to handle lighter loads, specialty loads, and barnburner Mags.

Add a threaded muzzle for breaching hardware, etc.

And enough Pic rails to gladden the heart of the most driven gearhead here.

And if you need a Beta tester, you know where to find me...

[Andrew Wyatt]

It should have decent sights, a decent trigger, and a decent safety.

why don't you come down to the match this year (www.wc3gun.com) and ask a bunch of shooters?

[TraditionsCSR]

Many thanks for the valuable information, gentlemen!

To address at least some of the ideas posted already:

1. We've done no "shoot to destruction" tests on the ALS, as it was originally intended for the hunting and clay target markets. Long-term durability is obviously in question. We have had some good feedback on thousand-round tests with 3" magnum loads. Several shooters have called saying they've fired upwards of 20,000 rounds, but this was all AA-type ammo for skeet. At least one practical shooter used an ALS for the Iron Man shoot, then loaned it to another shooter whose (unnamed) shotgun croaked during the match. Both shooters experienced perfect reliability, but this is obviously not an extensive test. I have approached our marketing director about getting some guns out for beta testing by shooters, as was suggested by a couple of your replies.

2. Windy, sandy weather conditions are tough to find here in New England. The ALS seems to work fine in muddy duck blinds and such, but we'll need to see the results of more shooting in western states under match conditions. See beta test comments above.

3. We'd actually prefer to use our Home Security shotgun as the basis for this project, since it would serve the dual purpose of home defense/LEO, where most people prefer short barrels. This gun is matte-finished and has a 20" cylinder bore barrel -- but we're unsure that such an open choke is suitable for this type of shooting. The 24" test gun has screw-in chokes. Recommendations on which is preferable?

4. The downside of the Home Security gun is that there's really no good way to easily mount optics. Affixing a mount to the vent rib of the 24" prototype seemed to work well, but the HS model has no rib. This leaves the dreaded saddle mount, which situates the sight very high. The receiver is on the thin side for drilling and tapping. Suggestions?

5. Mr. Patrick Kelley, of "Front Sight" magazine, found the gun easy to speed load. I've noted no sharp edges around the loading area on typical examples. Mr. Kelley's article appeared in the Jan/Feb 2003 issue, so USPSA members could look at their old copies for this info. The bolt release is a large button under the ejection port, similar to the Beretta design. We've considered using an extension on the button to increase leverage.

6. Stock trigger pull seems to average 4.25 - 5.0 pounds on the ALS. There's a fairly long, spongy take-up, unfortunately. In today's liability climate, I'm not sure this is something we can modify, as much as we all prefer better triggers.

7. We can do either wood or black synthetic furniture at present. I personally prefer the wood, while the marketing department thinks the black is more saleable. We've made prototypes both ways. The wood's heavier by about 1/4 pound. There is already a wood youth stock available with a reduced LOP. It is not currently available in synthetic.

8. Recommendations on specific recoil pads? Kick-eez? Decelerator? Other?

9. We've looked at sidesaddle-type ammo carriers, and concur that the 3GunGear design seems the best for this shotgun. Using a sidesaddle-type eliminates the saddle mount option for optics, obviously.

We're also open to comments on the following items:
* oversized safety buttons (the ALS uses a crossbolt behind the trigger)
* extended bolt handles
* ghost-ring versus bead sights (ghost ring sights will increase cost substantially)

We're looking to retail this gun in the $500-$550 range.

Thanks again for your help!

Mike Barham
Traditions Customer Service

[Correia]

If you want dry and dusty, I've got just the place for you. I also have a club full of people who would be willing to shoot the heck out of your gun. We run a full scale 9 or 10 stage 3 gun match every quarter, and we have rifle and shotgun mini matches every month after our regular IDPA match.

From what you describe, it really sounds like your 24 inch barrel would work better than your 20. The combination of the rib and choke tubes are a plus. Open choke is great for when you are shooting static plates that don't need to be knocked over, only hit. However it is a bummer when you need to knock down heavy steel.

Saddle mounts can be a bad thing, as they are often so high that you don't get a proper cheek weld. You have got to have a good fit in 3 gun, or you are going to be way to slow. We really lean into our shotguns on those burner stages.

Sights are a tough one. To be competitive against the more well known shotguns you need to beat their price. Beads are great against steel or thrown targets, but they come up short on slug targets. Like I said, I run a bead myself, but I'm in the definite minority. Could you offer the ghost rings as an option? That way if somebody wants to go cheap, or run optics they can? Maybe a fiber optic on the end of the rib would be the best of both worlds, not expensive, easier to pick up than a bead. Still not as precise as a ring though.

A jumbo safety is quicker to operate, and they are wonderful when you are shooting in the snow, when your fingers are so cold you can't really tell if you have reloaded the shells all the way into the gun. Smaller push button safeties are harder to operate when your finger tips are numb. However personally I think they are overrated if you are sufficiently familiar with your gun. However to the average entry level 3 gunner it is a selling point.

Extended bolt handle? It doesn't need to be huge, but it needs to be comfy and easy to operate. I don't know how yours is affixed to the bolt carrier, but the Remington 1100s have a tendancy to pop out sometimes. (They have a little ball on a spring that puts pressure on handle to hold it in) I've seen two of those go bad.

And something I forgot before, and this may sound silly. The gun should have the ability to mount a tac sling. Many matches have transition stages where you drop your long gun and transition to a pistol. So a side sling mount in front of the front stock would be a great addition. I would imagine that something like that would not be very expensive to fabricate, but it would be a nice addition.

On the mushy trigger, is it something that could be simply tuned up by a competent gunsmith, or is it just kind of designed that way?

The decelerator pad has a good rep, as does the kick eez. I just use a factory rubber Remington myself. What ever brand you decide on, just make sure you get one that doesn't have pointy edges. Those abrade you after awhile, and the shooter usually has to round them off himself. I like to put rubber pads on all my rifles, even .223. Not that you need it for recoil control, but a softer pad sticks to your shoulder better and is less likely to shift around and screw up your shooting.

Just my two cents. :)

[Preacherman]

Thanks for the feedback, Mike. I'm impressed that your company would look for this kind of input from shooters like us. Count me as a customer if you get this right!

To respond to your points:

1. By all means do a "shoot-to-destruction" test on one of your shotguns - with full-house loads, not low-base birdshot. This will serve two purposes: it'll show you guys what can break (and therefore what the factory should be making stronger), and it'll be a great advertisement for the finished product if you can say that your prototype did (say) 20,000 rounds without major cleaning and/or breakdown.

2. Beta testers? Sure! I'd love to have one to try out in the hot, humid, sandy and muddy conditions of Louisiana. Correia can try it out in the deserts of Utah. Dave McCracken is in Maryland, so he can test it in an anti-gun environment... :D

3 and 4. I agree with Correia that a 20" barrel is preferable to a 24", both for match purposes and as a practical consideration in a defensive shotgun. If you specifically want a rib-mounted sight, you could always get the factory in Turkey to do a production run of 20" ribbed barrels with screw-in chokes. After all, they've already got the production line going - all they would have to do is make the rib fit the shorter barrel, which should not be a difficult modification. Shouldn't be a major issue, surely? On the other hand, you might like to consider a "Scout"-type mount over your round barrel, as with the Express Sights system for lever-action carbines (with which I'm sure you're familiar - if not, see http://www.expresssights.com/). I agree that a saddle mount is not desirable at all, as is a receiver-mounted sight: this gets in the way of iron sights, and is too high for comfort in most of the shotguns I've seen with one.

5. I've not had many problems with reloading, so I'll leave this to Correia for his comments.

6. The trigger is CRITICAL!!! I can't emphasize this too much. I simply will not buy a shotgun (or rifle) which has a non-adjustable, lousy trigger pull. I think most experienced shooters rate this as "very important" as well. I think you should reconsider this part of your plans. A good 3-4 pound trigger, not too "mushy", is very, very important indeed. If you can't get one from the factory, how about looking at after-market trigger options? If you do this on a "production" basis, ordering several hundred or several thousand units, I'm sure firms like Timney et. al. would be able to supply your needs at a very reasonable unit price.

7. I'm glad to hear that you have wood available - this will certainly be my choice over black synthetic. I'll probably also go for the youth stock, as I like a shorter LOP on my shotguns. 13" sounds reasonable - this can be taken out to 13½" with a thicker recoil pad, if necessary.

8. Recoil pads - my no. 1 recommendation is for Kick-Eez, partially because it's the softest-shooting pad I've ever used, partly because they can supply pads in various thicknesses (from about ½" to about 1¼", if I remember correctly), which helps with LOP adjustment. As a second choice, I'd go with the Pachmayr Decelerator. BTW, you didn't comment about stock adjustment for cheek weld. Please do consider offering an after-market accessory of cheek-pieces in various thicknesses of Sorbothane, so that the stock can be fitted to the individual more easily. This could be as an optional accessory, so that you could make some money off it, and at the same time beat your competition, who don't offer this accessory. Sure, we can do it ourselves, but you could save us the trouble! :D BTW, Kick-Eez do offer sorbothane sheets, so you might be able to work with them to have them make up such cheek pads as one of their regular products. Both companies would benefit, no?

9. Sidesaddles - you seem to be on the right track here.

10. Other recommendations:

(a) Oversize safety button - YES! This is a combat-type shotgun - manipulation of the controls should be made as easy as possible.

(b) Extended bolt handle - YES! Ditto.

(c) Ghost-ring vs. bead - why not both? Offer the bead as standard equipment, and ghost-ring sights as an aftermarket accessory. Mossberg does this - one can buy their ghost-ring sights for about $60 from the factory, and have them fitted by a local gunsmith. I've done this on a couple of shotguns (including non-Mossbergs), with good results. Of course, Mossberg receivers are drilled and tapped for the rear sight... I don't know if it would be economical for you to do this. On the other hand, it's a pretty easy and routine task for a gunsmith to do it. You mentioned that your receivers are "on the thin side for drilling and tapping" - OK, how about some sort of reinforcement here? A thin metal plate, drilled and tapped, to be epoxied onto the receiver and secured by a couple of short screws in addition to the epoxy? I'm sure something practical can be worked out. Another very interesting option would be to look at the Express Sights' shotgun sight system. They're made for retrofit to standard sights, IIRC, but I'm sure you could very easily fit them to your round barrel - and this might be a good alternative to ghost-ring sights if your receiver is a bit too thin for drilling and tapping.

Another consideration. I agree that for a retail price of $500-$550, you probably can't get too fast and fancy with the shotgun. So, why not two models? A "base" model with all of the basic equipment (bead sight, standard trigger, etc.), and an "advanced" model with ghost-rings installed, adjustable (or at least a better) trigger, cheek-pieces included as standard equipment instead of an after-market purchase, perhaps a fancier finish (hard-chrome, NP3, whatever), and a selection of chokes instead of the one choke (IC? Mod?) included with the base model. This might be sold for $750-$800, giving ample room for the cost of the extra options (assuming you're using a Mossberg-type ghost-ring sight set - a more expensive sight set like the Trak-Lok or MMC might push the price up another $100 to $200).

What about service and support? If these guns are not well-known in this country, there are many who will ask questions about warranty service and support, parts availability, etc. Also, are there good schematics available? Will you sell spare parts freely to the end user, or insist that the gun be returned to you? Many of us are quite capable of detail-stripping and repairing our weapons, and it's a major pain in the posterior if we can't get certain parts from the factory. How do you plan to address these issues?

Hope these ideas help. I really wish you well in this project - as I said, if you get it right (particularly the trigger!!!), I'm a guaranteed customer.

[Correia]

Preacherman must have been typing the same time as I was.

I like the idea of a ribbed 20 inch barrel with removable choke tubes. That would be awesome.

If you look at the competition everything else runs in the $700-$1000 on up range. (I've shot against a guy with a $2 K match shotgun once, whooped him with a stock 870, best feeling ever!) A $500 practical SG would be a good seller provided the customers felt good about it.

[sm]

You guys with 3 gun have nailed it really well. Can't add just re-enforce and support you.

RELIABLE, great trigger, 20" bbl, external chokes (muzzles get dinged, wrenches are a PITB), overbored/backbored, Declerator pad ( trim toe/heel and inside for smooth mount, hanging up a no- no)good bead sight is fine for me--ok if others want something else, got to agree with feeding has to be ergo, fast and reliable.One of the reasons the SX1 works so well in dust and sand and others don't is the piston rod that pushes back bolt-very effiecent, reliable, and least affected gas system I ever used-period! Ammo-has to work from skeet to buckshot ( work with everything-everytime).

Rest of the stuff you guys know better than I. I agree on the points I re-stated and concur with above posts. I didn't do 3 gun, I did compete and I can wring a shotty out with "run till it dies". Wood furniture for me :D

On gun fit, a big deal with me anyway. It HAS to fit or be ABLE to fit shooter. For instance I have to use moleskin in order for a 870 to fit-I then put electrical tape over that...slides , no sticky to sweaty face like sorbathane, and slides rather than grab like moleskin itself.

Beretta uses shims to adjust---anything,but-- gun has to fit IMO.

Build it to last, Build it to be made back equal to or better than if and when such time its needs a fix.

[TraditionsCSR]

Excellent ideas all around. Thank you all very much. Perhaps we can come to something of a consensus on features (assuming satisfactory reliability and durability) so far.

1. 20" vent rib barrel
2. Screw-in chokes
3. Sidesaddle-type ammo carrier
4. Wood youth-length stock with spacers and Kick-Eez recoil pad
5. Red fiber-optic bead front sight
6. Durable matte finish (already standard on the Home Security model)
7. Extended magazine (7+1 or 8+1)

Other possibles are an extended bolt handle and jumbo safety button. Ghost rings and an optics mount available as accessories, or possibly rolled into packages at higher prices.

I spoke to our most experienced gunsmith about drilling and tapping the receiver. He reports that it is too thin toward the muzzle, but toward the stock there is sufficient thickness to install ghost ring sights if necessary. The same gunsmith said that the trigger is easily "smithable" by clipping a single spring and slightly altering the hammer geometry (mandatory disclaimer: Traditions strongly recommends against altering the factory trigger mechanism).

Another possibility would be a smoothbore barrel with cantilever and a front sight, with detachable rear sight. Winchester has done this with their practical shotgun, as I'm sure you all know.

Knowing how these things work, the sort of bread-n-butter basic model would probably be introduced to test the water. If it sells reasonably well, a fancier version would come along in a year.

Further suggestions are always welcome. I'll actually be passing this project on to other employees after today, since this is my last day with Traditions. I'm leaving the Iron Curtain (New England) behind, and moving to Arizona next week. I'll start looking for THR gatherings out there when I get settled.

Thanks again to all who replied with so many excellent suggestions. They will all be taken seriously.

Mike Barham
Traditions Customer Service

[Correia]

Good luck in AZ. It is a great state. Plenty of competition down there. (plus you will get to see what I was talking about with sand and wind in competition) ;)

[Andrew Wyatt]

what about having a model that comes from the factory with a vang comped (no ports) barrel?

Those seem to be reasonably popular at the swat magazine match.

[DJJ]

Lefty friendly. Reversible safety at least.

[Dave McCracken]

Agreed with one to seven, Traditions. Make the chokes extended for easy finger tightening and no wrenches.

Some fiber optic sights are on the delicate side. Make sure this'un's milspec tough.

A long cone and a mild overbore for better patterns and a little less kick oughta be good selling points also.

And I can find a sandpit here in anti-gun Md, bring it on!

[Oleg Volk]

Fiber optic sights need protective ears. Adjustable windage on the front sight.

Deburr the action and trigger guard. My hands bleed with enough time around most shotguns.