F.B.I. Why .10 mm. over .45 ACP. ?


PDA






DC3-CVN-72
October 26, 2007, 08:44 PM
After the 1986 miami shoot out why did the F.B.I. spend the time & money to develope the .10 mm. that they wattered down with the .40 S&W when we already had the proven .45 ACP. I think the .10 mm. is a grate round and I love my S&W model 1006,:evil: but if their was that big a problem with the .9 mm. why not imeditaly arm the field agents with .45 ACP. handguns ?

If you enjoyed reading about "F.B.I. Why .10 mm. over .45 ACP. ?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
SubSolar
October 26, 2007, 08:58 PM
If I remember correctly, the 10mm did better than the .45 in their ballistics tests. It was also more accurate than the .45 which was more accurate than the 9mm also in the test.

GunTech
October 26, 2007, 09:20 PM
Penetration. The 10mm beats the 45 hands down.

Jimmy Newman
October 26, 2007, 09:22 PM
Just a note... 9mm and 10mm are 9mm and 10mm, not .9mm and .10mm.

They just set out with some research to try to find the optimum pistol caliber and came up with the 10mm. Of course, it turned out to be more than a lot of the people who weren't willing to practice a lot could learn to shoot well, so they ended up toning it down.

jamesr
October 26, 2007, 09:24 PM
It was a knee jerk reaction, the 10mm was over kill. But honestly 10mm makes a 45acp look like a 9mm.

I wish the 10mm would make a come back, I think it is a great caliber.

My question is what the hell did they make the 45gap for :barf:

It has the same ballistics as the 45acp, but is allows for a little smaller grip. Was that really worth another cailber? :rolleyes:

The Canuck
October 26, 2007, 09:24 PM
So why does the HRT and FBI SWAT use the .45 ACP? Not being catty, genuinely curious.

jamesr
October 26, 2007, 09:29 PM
So why does the HRT and FBI SWAT use the .45 ACP? Not being catty, genuinely curious.

Each dept does ballistics tests, and chooses a caliber. It was probably a mix of reasons. But they could switch to the 357-sig or 40 s&w next year. Most depts change as they continue to review their choice.

DC3-CVN-72
October 26, 2007, 10:05 PM
I guess what I was getting at when I started this thread was if .9 mm. was so bad why did the F.B.I. not immediatly change over to .45 ACP. untill something else could be developed. I'm not saying that the .45 ACP. is more powerfull than the .10 mm. just that we already had the .45 ACP. dose that make sence. :confused:

Quiet
October 26, 2007, 10:23 PM
The FBI went with the 10mmAuto after the Miami incident, in which the current issue 9x19mm ammo was deemed to be lacking in effectiveness.

Original 10mmAuto loads were deemed to be too much for the average FBI agent to handle so it was underloaded. S&W and Winchester noticing that they could achieve the same ballistics as the 10mmAuto FBI load by shortening the 10mmAuto case, created the .40S&W.

After several years of service, the S&W Model 1076 and 10mmAuto was deemed to be too impractical for the average FBI agent and a new search was on for a new service pistol. In the interm, the FBI issued out 9x19mm Sigarms P-226 & P-228.

During the time period the S&W Model 1076 was adopted and used, the FBI adopted the H&K MP-5/10 as their standard submachinegun. Full power 10mmAuto rounds were used in the MP-5/10 and not the underloaded 10mmAuto FBI load.

During this time period, FBI SWAT was using 9x19mm Sigarms P-226 and FBI HRT was using 9x19mm Browning Hi-Powers. FBI HRT put out a RFP for a replacement (.45ACP hi-cap 1911) to their used & abused Browning Hi-Powers. Les Bear won the contract and the FBI HRT was issued the Les Bear/Para-Ordnance P-13.45 SRT. After problems surfaced concerning the reliability of the P-13.45, the HRT switched back to their Browning Hi-Powers. A few years after, FBI SWAT put out a RFP for a replacement (.45ACP single stack 1911). Springfield Armory won the contract and the FBI SWAT & HRT were issued the Springfield Armory Bureau Model.

Years later and after realizing what they really wanted was the .40S&W and not an underloaded 10mmAuto, the FBI adopted the .40S&W and the Glock Model 22 & Model 23 for issue to HRT/SWAT FBI agents.

The H&K MP-5/10 is still the standard issue submachinegun.

What this all means.
9x19mm is good enough to get you by.
10mmAuto (FBI light load) not so great for regular Agents.
.40S&W great for regular Agents.
.45ACP great for Agents who have to CQB.
10mmAuto (full-power loads) great subgun round.

Quiet
October 26, 2007, 10:26 PM
I guess what I was getting at when I started this thread was if .9 mm. was so bad why did the F.B.I. not immediatly change over to .45 ACP. untill something else could be developed. I'm not saying that the .45 ACP. is more powerfull than the .10 mm. just that we already had the .45 ACP. dose that make sence.
FBI Agents come in all shapes and sizes and it was deemed that not all of them could handle the recoil of a .45ACP handgun.
Hence the reason, why it is still limited to FBI Agents with additional firearms training (ie. HRT & SWAT).

Zoogster
October 26, 2007, 11:24 PM
They tested many rounds and arrived at the 10mm as the ultimate pistol round for the job based on numerous results.

It had a high capacity and smaller frame, but the main reason was the ballistics. Officers often find themselves facing individuals in vehicles. The 10mm is great for penetration, but also expands excellent with the high velocity. In a proper firearm it has recoil on par with a .45, but aimed follow-up shots are actualy faster because it is more of a snap rather than a push. It also is extremely flat shooting, where you aim is where you hit for quite a range.

The reason the FBI stopped using it was because several small framed females were threatening to file sexual discrimination lawsuits because they said the firearm qualifications were sexist favoring thier male counterparts with the 10mm. This was not just due to the round, but because it was being fired out of a .45ACP frame still equiped with a much weaker .45 ACP recoil spring that was allowing the slide to get slammed around acting as a pendalum throwing shots wide.
So they started to load the round to lower performance to make up for a bad spring, rather than upgrade the spring (they were not aware of it at the time.)
So a great round chosen because it was the best for the job was traded for a round that was best for the gun in a poor configuration.
Then the .40SW was born because gun makers saw the ability to use 9mm frames chambered in this weak loading and knew it would be far cheaper to simply rechamber thier many existing 9mm platforms than have to make new ones suitable for the 10mm.

So the 10mm was selected because it was the best for the job, and the .40SW replaced it to due to greed and profit.
Law enforcement followed the FBI lead and the .40SW now holds the spot the 10mm was destined to hold.

So something as small as the wrong stock recoil spring in a pistol chambered for an introduced round can and did change the future of the round.

The .45ACP on the other hand works great at close range against human tissue, but starts to quickly degrade if anything is in the way. It is quite wide for the energy it contains, and consequently fewer rounds can be held in a firearm of standard dimensions. Its width also causes it to lose velocity while penetrating barriers far quicker.
I would say one of the big reasons the .45ACP is chosen for CQB type work is because it is a great defensive round, but due to its very poor ballistic coeffecient is one of the safest defensive rounds to be hit with while wearing body armor. It may pack a punch, but it won't be getting through.
The paramilitary type teams you mention are also military type units, and a handgun is simply a secondary weapon, so capacity concerns are not as much of an issue.

You also mention 9mm and 10mm as if the only thing seperating the two is the 1mm in thier description, and thier choice in switching over is a matter of upgrading a single mm. They are completely different rounds, not even comparable in the ballistics department. Just like a .44 magnum and a .45 are in no way comparable. A similar name does not make a similar cartridge.

Officers died because of poor performance of pistol rounds on Michael Platt.
The performance issue was fixed because of that, and then unfixed for political and financial reasons.

Colonel Cooper's perfect pistol round came to life in the form of the 10mm produced by Norma. The fact that the FBI later adopted it based soley on test results of numerous rounds proved it was indeed everything it was envisioned to be before it was even created.
It is unfortunate that things turned out the way they did and we now have widespread and affordable .40SW ammunition instead of 10mm ammunition.

woodstock72000@yahoo.com
October 27, 2007, 12:04 AM
The 10mm and the .40 S@W both out perform the 9mm and the .45 Lots of people will argue this point but never the less, it`s a fact. I`ve sold all of my 9mm`s and I`m now trying to gather a few .40`s. I don`t understand the statement about a 10mm making a .45 look like a 9mm though. Since I`ve started shooting the .40`s I`ve fell in love, They`re hands down the best all around caliber for a handgun that I`ve ever shot. I just wish that they woulda been here sooner.

Try`em and see for yourself. My favorite so far is the CZ 75 B. Just got it and it`s a dream come true.

Oh, if you`ve questioned the ballistics, go here http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ballistics/?url=%2Fballistics%2F45_auto.html&x=3&y=5 and see for yourself.

woodstock72000@yahoo.com
October 27, 2007, 12:12 AM
Oh yeah, before the PLACEMENT,PLACEMENT,PLACEMENT guys get started, ask yourself this," Would you rather have injured an assailant with a 9mm or a .40 or 10mm?" Easy answerS.

Manan
October 27, 2007, 12:13 AM
As I recall, the 10mm ballistics were superior to other police type rounds, but the reason the FBI did not go with it in the early years was that an exceptable sized frame would not hold up to repeated firing.

Also, concerning the .45 round and penetration; the .45 is a man stopper. It is slower and has less penetration characteristics by design. All of the .45's energy is transferred to a target thereby lessening the chance that the target will continue to be a threat. Most pistol fights happen with just a few feet between a good guy and a bad guy (3 to 7). In police work, it may be sometimes necessary to shoot through something, like a car door or windshield. The .45 many times will not penetrate a car door or windshield. Hence the need for a faster round with more penetration characteristics.

Soybomb
October 27, 2007, 12:51 AM
If you dig around a little you can find a pdf of the FBI's analysis of their options and why they went with 10mm straight from the horses mouth.

Trebor
October 27, 2007, 01:18 AM
There was some internal controversy after the Miami shoot out over what handgun and handgun caliber the FBI should use. There were guys involved in the training and selection who backed .45 ACP. My understanding is the 10mm won out partially on merit and partially because it's backers had more clout within the agency.

So, like a lot of things, it seems internal politics was involved.

My info is from discussions I've read over at The Gun Zone from people who knew some of the details of the selection process. I don't have any links because the threads were quite awhile ago and this is from my memory of those discussions.

Harley Quinn
October 27, 2007, 01:38 AM
The subsequent FBI investigation placed blame for the deaths of their agents on a perceived lack of stopping power exhibited by their 9mm service pistols. They soon began the search to adopt a more powerful caliber. Noting the difficulties of reloading a revolver while under fire, they specified that agents should be armed with semiautomatic handguns.

The Smith & Wesson 1076, chambered for the powerful 10mm Auto round, was chosen as a direct result of the Miami shootout. The recoil of the 10mm Auto later proved too much for some agents to control effectively, and a special reduced velocity loading of the 10mm Auto was developed, commonly referred to as "10mm Lite" or "10mm FBI".

Soon there after, Smith and Wesson realized the large case of the 10mm Auto was not necessary to produce the reduced ballistics of the FBI load. Smith and Wesson developed a shorter cased cartridge based on the 10mm that would ultimately replace the 10mm as the primary FBI service cartridge, the .40 S&W.

The .40 S&W became far more popular than its parent, the 10mm Auto, due to the ability to chamber the shorter cartridge in standard frame automatic pistols designed for the 9 mm Para. Other than a .142" reduction in overall case length, resulting in less gun powder capacity in the .40 S&W, the 10mm and .40 S&W are identical, both using the same .400" caliber bullets

Bullet
October 27, 2007, 02:44 AM
You might look here -

http://home.earthlink.net/~gnappi/history.htm

sleeperj21
October 27, 2007, 09:15 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FBI_Miami_shootout,_1986

Harley Quinn
October 27, 2007, 09:32 PM
These two guys that were the suspects in this famous shoot out were just very hard core bad a-- folk. They were killed and they killed.

The guns they were shooting, was what? What killed and wounded the officers that were involved?
Weapons
Suspects
Ruger Mini-14 rifle
S&W M586 .357 Magnum revolver
Dan Wesson .357 Magnum revolver
S&W M3000 12 gauge shotgun
FBI
Smith & Wesson .357 and .38 Special revolvers
Smith & Wesson 459 9mm pistols
Remington 870 12 gauge shotgun

This is what was there that day:
*********
Then came the killing:

Military-trained, Platt aggressively advanced on Grogan and Dove's car, which they (so far uninjured) were using for cover. Reaching their position, he continued firing the rifle. Platt killed Grogan with a shot to the chest, shot another agent in the groin, and then killed Dove with two shots to the head. Platt himself had already been hit six times at this point.

So that is what changed the pistol to 10 mm and 40 S&W.

:uhoh:

.357 magnum
October 28, 2007, 12:06 AM
The 10mm is better for penetration through barriers. Especially Car doors and windshield glass. I prefer the .45, it is a little better Man Stopper, more ammo choices and easier to shoot.

The Best to All!

Frank

azredhawk44
October 28, 2007, 12:20 AM
These two guys that were the suspects in this famous shoot out were just very hard core bad a-- folk. They were killed and they killed.

The guns they were shooting, was what? What killed and wounded the officers that were involved?
Weapons
Suspects
Ruger Mini-14 rifle
S&W M586 .357 Magnum revolver
Dan Wesson .357 Magnum revolver
S&W M3000 12 gauge shotgun
FBI
Smith & Wesson .357 and .38 Special revolvers
Smith & Wesson 459 9mm pistols
Remington 870 12 gauge shotgun

This is what was there that day:
*********
Then came the killing:

Military-trained, Platt aggressively advanced on Grogan and Dove's car, which they (so far uninjured) were using for cover. Reaching their position, he continued firing the rifle. Platt killed Grogan with a shot to the chest, shot another agent in the groin, and then killed Dove with two shots to the head. Platt himself had already been hit six times at this point.

So that is what changed the pistol to 10 mm and 40 S&W.

Reading between the lines on Harley's post, one could also deduce that the FBI agents HAD a powerful cartridge in the form of the .357 magnum already. They just couldn't shoot very well.

What's the FBI loadout for .38 and .357? Isn't .38 a 158gr LSWCHP, and the .357 is a 125gr JHP? Neither of those is a slouch in any regards.

I also think the 10mm got pole-axed by politics, and I refuse to own a .40 short-and-weak. If I didn't have magnum revolvers, I would be looking into a 10mm auto handgun.

Trebor
October 28, 2007, 12:40 AM
IIRC, the FBI .357's were loaded with the standard FBI .38 Special load, as per FBI policy.

RNB65
October 28, 2007, 01:04 AM
IIRC, the FBI .357's were loaded with the standard FBI .38 Special load, as per FBI policy.

That's correct. Five of the FBI agents carried revolvers that were chambered in either .357 Mag or .38 Special. However, none of them had .357 Mag ammo. They all used .38 Special +P ammo.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs7.htm

Landric
October 28, 2007, 03:34 AM
IMO, the "Miami Shootout" was more a failure of tactics and shot placement (and being outgunned by a suspect with a rifle) than an ammunition failure. The ammunition basically performed as it was designed to. The fact that a single bullet that could have been fatal failed to penetrate deeply enough is not a very good argument for changing bullet design, weight, and chambering.

Overall, the Silvertip worked very well (and I suspect it still does). If anything the FBI did the law enforcement world a great disservice by promoting the Winchester Olin Super Match 147 grain JHP as a better overall law enforcement/self-defense round than the 115 grain Silvertip. The circumstances encountered in the "Miami Shootout" were quite unique. No single weapon or ammunition can possibly cover all possible situations.

That said, I think the 10mm is a great pistol cartridge, and I would much rather the FBI and law enforcement in general stuck with it in its full-power loading. It is really not that hard to control in guns like the S&W 1076, it packs a punch, and it is very accurate. I've been in law enforcement over 11 years. Anyone who has enough upper body strength to be able to handle themselves on the street can control a full-power 10mm (and yes, that includes small framed females, I have worked with several who were tough as nails and probably stronger than I am). People who cannot shoot the 10mm can also not shoot the .40S&W, the .45ACP, the 9x19mm, or the .38 Special. They just cannot shoot and use the complaint that the 10mm recoils too much as a crutch to point a finger elsewhere. The grip on single stack 10mm pistols is also slim enough that just about anyone can handle one. No single handgun works for everyone of course.

Too bad the 10mm didn't stick around in greater numbers, I'd love the 10mm ammo and brass to be more affordable so I could shoot mine more.

Harley Quinn
October 28, 2007, 04:36 AM
One thing that is not mentioned but probably known about the Mini 14...It was a 223, I am thinking.
It killed one of the FBI with a shot to the chest (wearing a bullet proof vest or not he died from the one shot).
The other FBI agent was shot twice in the head with this weapon and another in the groin.
That accounts for 2 dead and one wounded.

The firearms that the FBI used obviously did hit the suspects but not hard enough to kill them out right.

The 40 S&W has become the favorite it seems of late.

I have a bent for the 357 Sig and the 400 Corbon recently. I like the 10 mm also. The 45 in +P is nice.

The xtra rounds are nice to have in a 9mm auto (glock hi cap mags). But they seem to have gone over to the 40 big time in LEO.
There is some very good ammo out now and if you see the time frame of this shooting (21 years ago) a lot of money and research has gone into the firearms industry.

I personally would feel that a nice 40 cal would do the trick for most of the LEO also.

Soybomb
October 28, 2007, 06:52 AM
IMO, the "Miami Shootout" was more a failure of tactics and shot placement (and being outgunned by a suspect with a rifle) than an ammunition failure. The ammunition basically performed as it was designed to. The fact that a single bullet that could have been fatal failed to penetrate deeply enough is not a very good argument for changing bullet design, weight, and chambering.
I'm not following. A shot was placed in path with the heart but didn't penetrate deeply enough to reach the heart and the failure is shot placement? It seems like thats an example of perfect shot placement and a failure of the ammunition to perform as needed, even if it performed as designed. I believe it was the final wake up call that shots aren't straight into the chest right to the heart but sometimes might take a less direct path first, including through other tissue like an arm in this case.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf][/url]
Ammunition Failure - Dove made perfect shot, gun worked perfectly, bullet failed to do what was necessary.
Had bullet met currently established FBI standards, Platt's heart would have been penetrated and he could have lasted 30 seconds or so - not the four minutes plus after which he killed Grogan and Dove.

So how is shot placement to blame?

As to the original poster, see page 6 of this document for the answer to your question stright from the FBI http://www.firearmstactical.com/pdf/fbi_10mm_notes.pdf

silversport
October 28, 2007, 10:03 AM
soybomb...you have it closer to the truth...I remember this day well...I used this very incident to finally convince my Chief to switch from revolvers to semi-autos as did many departments...the Winchester Silvertip did EXACTLY what it was designed to do under the older FBI protocol...Relative Incapacitation Index I believe it was called...the one that said a .380ACP was just as well as a .45ACP (that WAS the thinking)...IIRC 10" of penetration and stop...the study of the rounds placed with Silvertips was that they were placed very well...the shooter did his part...the bullet did what it was designed to do...penetrate 10" and stop...it di its part...the RII never took into consideration that the bullet might have to penetrate arms, hands. legs before getting to the stuff to end the fight...one round took out the Aorta but the shooter kept firing and waging Hell...
Bill

Landric
October 28, 2007, 04:34 PM
The agent that fired the round that "would have killed Platt" if it has penetrated more deeply fired 29 rounds from his S&W 9mm and scored only that one hit. That is a failure of shot placement. Again, the bullet did exactly what it was designed to do. There is no single chambering or type of bullet or penetration depth that is going to work for all possible situations. A bullet that would have penetrated to the heart and possibly killed Platt sooner also might well have over-penetrated and killed an innocent bystander in a straight on frontal shooting under different circumstances. There is no magic bullet.

I'm not claiming that I would have faired better under these unique set of circumstances, however, one does have to question the tactics. The FBI, who are supposed to be the elite of law enforcement, went into a situation where they knew they were looking for heavily armed suspects; they had only a couple of long guns, only a couple were wearing body armor, and when they spotted the suspects, they did not call for law enforcement backup before making the unusual decision to run the suspects off the road.

There were a lot of failures in this situation which we can all learn from. Blaming a single bullet is a simple and inaccurate solution to a very complex problem.

That said, we did see a great improvement in handgun ammunition and chambering after this incident, and for that we can be grateful. I think the 10mm in its full-power loadings is an excellent self-defense and law enforcement caliber, and I would be very happy to carry one on-duty.

Harley Quinn
October 28, 2007, 05:37 PM
Landric,
If they fired that much ammo and scored only one hit :eek: That is just terrible stats for sure. I don't see where we can go with this other than to say that one hit with a 10mm might have done it;)

I have said it many times about shooting and being able to control self, in the battle. It is all about training and being able to hit what you aim at.

If you are going to play, the game of "life and death" at any moment at anytime, you have to be prepared with shooting and hitting. One day a month is a minimum after becoming accomplished. I'd prefer it to be one day a week.

These who fail to shoot regularly, and carry are only fooling themselves.

:(

MachIVshooter
October 28, 2007, 06:17 PM
After the 1986 miami shoot out why did the F.B.I. spend the time & money to develope the .10 mm
just that we already had the .45 ACP. dose that make sence.

The FBI did not devlop the 10mm Auto. Dornaus & Dixon did, with help from Norma Cartridge Co. in 1982. The FBI Adopted it, along with the &W 1076 Pistol.

HorseSoldier
October 28, 2007, 06:31 PM
IMO, the "Miami Shootout" was more a failure of tactics and shot placement (and being outgunned by a suspect with a rifle) than an ammunition failure. The ammunition basically performed as it was designed to. The fact that a single bullet that could have been fatal failed to penetrate deeply enough is not a very good argument for changing bullet design, weight, and chambering.


I think it can be argued that blaming the shoot out's negative outcome on 9mm handguns was the path of least resistance (and least career damage), bureaucratically speaking. Saying the pistols were to blame cast zero negative attention on poor firearms training, poor planning at both the big picture and that day (i.e. bringing mostly pistols to a long gun fight) or on the other questionable actions of the agents actually involved in the shoot out. Publicly scapegoating a bullet/caliber was a lot easier than publicly facing soem hard truths and errors (which were quietly addressed behind the scenes with better training, etc., if I'm not mistaken).

RNB65
October 28, 2007, 08:06 PM
Saying the pistols were to blame cast zero negative attention on poor firearms training, poor planning at both the big picture and that day (i.e. bringing mostly pistols to a long gun fight) or on the other questionable actions of the agents actually involved in the shoot out.

Bingo. The two real failures on that day were:

1. Going out on their mobile surveillance armed only with handguns and one shotgun when they knew from previous armored car robberies that Platt and Matix were armed with a Mini-14 and a shotgun.

2. The spur-of-the-moment decision to try a make a tactical stop of the suspect's car knowing that they were heavily outgunned and with no planning or preperation. Bad, bad decision.

Harley Quinn
October 28, 2007, 09:24 PM
Similar to the CHP shoot out in Newhall we are talking two bad hombres and the luck of the draw was not with the LEO that day either.

Short story here is:
Newhall was the site of the Newhall Incident, in which four California Highway Patrol officers were shot to death on April 6, 1970 during a traffic stop of two heavily armed career criminals. This led to increased emphasis on officer safety both within the CHP and across the nation.

Bad training had led to this one also.
They had 357 Mag ammo in the revolvers, shotguns not being used properly.

37 years ago, hopefully these men have not died in vain.

Outlaws
October 28, 2007, 09:38 PM
My question is what the hell did they make the 45gap for

It has the same ballistics as the 45acp, but is allows for a little smaller grip. Was that really worth another cailber?

The grip on the 1911 is borderline sacred to some people, as is the grip on the full and mid sized Glocks. A lot of 1911 people would like higher capacity, but not at the expense of the grip. Well, a lot of Glock people wanted a larger caliber, but not at the expense of the grip. :D

I guess deep down inside, Glock people and 1911 people are really the same.

Zoogster
October 30, 2007, 02:34 AM
1. Going out on their mobile surveillance armed only with handguns and one shotgun when they knew from previous armored car robberies that Platt and Matix were armed with a Mini-14 and a shotgun.

I seem to recall at least one of the cars being armed with a select fire MP5 submachinegun. It was in the trunk however and never entered into the firefight.

The bad guys also were highly trained prior military police themselves. They did not wait for the police to initiate the encounter, or sit tight pinned down while the officers brought the fight to them like 95% of criminals do.

Platt aimed the mini 14 from his spot in the passenger seat putting the muzzle in front of the driver and firing out the driver's side window right at the passing officer he knew was tailing him. He then crawled out the window of a vehicle with both doors jammed shut from the obviously violent impact while under fire and being hit, and advanced on the officers using his military training before they could adjust to the situation or recover from the crash. That is no ordinary reaction by a suspect. Most would have either sat in thier vehicle, exhanged gunfire from thier vehicle or in a stationary position, or attempted to flee on foot, or at least become stationary after taking hits.

His partner the driver who was quickly put out of commission from a bullet to the back of the head which existed out the front of his facing taking a chunk of it with it still somehow managed to revive later and get in the new vehicle. So after having a rifle muzzle fired in front of his face from inches away in an enclosed vehicle(surely making him deaf at least temporarily), and then taking a hit through the back of the head that exited out of his face he got up and rejoined the scene. That shows some serious determination.
I dare say if he had remained in the fight and the two had been able to move as a fire team many more if not all of the agents would have died. He tried to get out but his door was jammed shut from the impact, and he fired one round and was then hit.
He of course would die unarmed, executed huddled in a fetal position trying not to be shot by the officer while still suffering from the head shot earlier. Someone however can have little sympathy for either of those two who had ruthlessly killed innocent people prior, that is even how they aquired thier firearms to begin with.

ccmdfd
October 30, 2007, 11:56 AM
Oh heavens! It's been quite some time since I read up on the Miami incident, so I may be a little rusty.

Didn't the infamous 9mm silvertip actualy puncture on of the main vessels in the chest? I thought it actually was a "lethal" shot, but as is often the case, the lethality wasn't instantaneous, and before that particular wound could cause incapacitation, the suspect was able to go about shooting other agents. The few extra inches of penetration may have ended the fight sooner, but then again, nothing is ever certain in these instances.

Harley Quinn
October 30, 2007, 12:02 PM
Interesting how one of the premier penetration rounds, the 9mm was unable to penetrate...Or just missed a fatal location:uhoh: The infamous mushroom round.;)

If you enjoyed reading about "F.B.I. Why .10 mm. over .45 ACP. ?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!