About ammo in your home


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jaydubya
October 26, 2007, 10:51 PM
I'm a San Diegan and my county has just survived the worst fire storm in California history. My family and home were never directly involved because we live on the south coast. But I currently have about two thousand rounds of range ammo in the garage, plus HD ammo and handguns about the house. As the Perfect Santa Ana hit us, combined with the worst drought in memory, I found myself watching a local TV station commentator describing how a house in Rancho Bernardo was burned to the ground, and listening to ammunition in the ruins cooking off in an alarming sputter. In fact, the commentator said that cartridges were raining down upon him. He got there long after the firemen had left -- and guess WHY they left.

Morale: if fire approaches your house and you are ordered to leave your house, take your ammo!

I continue with this: Although Qualcomm Stadium was used as an evacuation center, the Chargers will play in Qualcomm Stadium Sunday. I welcome you to watch a game in a town, and a state, that was ready for the Perfect Storm.

Hoowah!

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earplug
October 26, 2007, 11:05 PM
Small arms cartridges are not A problem when they cook off due to heat.
Repeat this several times.
Cartridges in firearms are A danger if they cook off due to heat.
If cartridges were A danger we would not need firearms to go with them.
This has been covered in the TV show myth busters and the old classic book by Hatcher.

Evenflo76
October 26, 2007, 11:10 PM
After seeing what happened to the residents of Louisiana after Katrina, you can bet I'll be taking ALL my firearms and ammo with me when I go. Most folk had their firearms seized after they went back to collect personal belongings and check the condition of their property.

The only time I want my ammo to fgo bang is when I pull the trigger.

larryw
October 26, 2007, 11:11 PM
Uh huh... that brave reporter was standing firm while the firemen bailed? :rolleyes:

Description of a publication from SAMMI: Nearly one million rounds of ammunition were subjected to ten different tests-from open burn conditions to tightly confined burn conditions-to examine what happens to sporting ammunition exposed to severe impact and fire. This video is recommended as an educational tool for fire departments and explains how firefighters face no danger from sporting ammunition in a fire when protected by standard turn-out gear.

My cousin the firefighter is more concerned about my propane BBQ tank than my tens of thousands of rounds of ammo, many pounds of powder and bricks of primers in my garage.

But glad to hear you weathered the firestorm, I have several friends and business partners who weren't so lucky.

larryw
October 26, 2007, 11:12 PM
double-tap

DB
October 26, 2007, 11:17 PM
earplug and larryw have it right... My understanding is that cooking ammo by itself in a fire is not particularly spectacular or a problem. Hatcher did extensive studies which are published on this very subject.

jaysouth
October 26, 2007, 11:26 PM
I had an auto catch on fire. There was a metal GI surplus ammo can in the rear seat containing a couple of hundred .45 ACP reloads. Most of the rounds cooked off in the fire, the can was bulged and distorted, but no bullets or cases escaped from the ammo can.

If you have a propane cylinder, a can of gasoline or a lawnmower with gas in the tank, you have the makings of a deadly explosion and fire.

sm
October 26, 2007, 11:58 PM
Human Life trumps material possessions.

Fire, Flood, Tornado, Chemical Spill , and other disasters, one is wise to evacuate and not put their safety, and especially the safety and well being of others at greater risk,by lingering and gathering possessions, or going back into areas of danger.

Some things one cannot put a value on.
Insurance is just a hedge , accept the fact total replacement is not going to occur.

I know a lady and son;the instant a tornado siren sounded, their house was hit.
She spent 7 months or so in the hospital, her son 3 or so, I forget exactly.
These the only survivors. Husband and the rest of the kids died, pets too, house flattened, all vehicles destroyed, lost everything.

Mom and son, bought a home, in another town, before they moved in, installed a in-ground storm shelter before they every moved in.
Also a modern fire and burglar alarm system, and other security measures.

I was in a Hi Rise Motel when the fire alarm went off, in the wee hours.
I dressed, snagged AA Mini-Maglight, CCW, and assisted others going down from 10th floor.

Almost 2 hours later, out comes a well dressed lady, with everything she had taken into hotel, had taken a bath, did her makeup, and packed everything nice and neat.
Fire Dept had a little chat in regard to Fire Alarms, evacuating and all...

How many times have you seen on the news someone died while looking for the pet, or went back in for a pet, or some keepsake in a fire?

jaydubya
October 27, 2007, 12:11 AM
SM: well said.

As for those who discussed how safe it is to be around rounds cooking off, that is not the point. The point is this: are firemen willing to save your house, or just move on?
Cordially, Jack

larryw
October 27, 2007, 02:51 AM
Jack,

The point is are the firemen going to move on because of ammo (as the anti BS-reporter is implying), or because of the propane tank/lawnmower in the garage?

Watching some of the firefighters take on the local brushfires and their commitment to save homes, I think nothing short of a Dresden level firestorm will drive them off. These brave souls take their work and charter to heart, God bless them.

So, don't be swayed by the incessant drumbeat of the antis and drive-by media. They're trying to weave a fabric for the restriction of liberty, based on lies and fabrication.

sm
October 27, 2007, 03:47 AM
Fire Marshall's/ Fire Dept Folks coming around just asked that tanks of Oxygen. Propane, and Acetylene, the 122 pounders of O2 and same size of gas, be secured to the wall.

I am familiar with have these in homes and business.
Business might have as many as a dozen of these tanks.
Concern was these falling, and tripping Fire Fighters.

Mom&Pop Gun stores, again, don't recall any concerns about ammo, just the code on BP amount and storage, that I do not recall back in the old days.

-
Deal is, folks need to think for themselves and use some common sense.
Indoctrination by Gov't, Politicians and others with Agendas have reduced Society's ability to use Common Sense, appreciate what is Priority, Freedom and be Self Reliant.

You cannot protect everybody from everything.
I do not care if just regular J.Q. Public sharing with another J.Q. Public or Gov't Regulations.
Heck one can drink too much water and hurt themselves.
One can take too many of some vitamins and get toxic, and hurt themselves.

Where these fires are, Guns are bad and Gun Control is the Agenda.
Negative News gets ratings.

Heck my mom saw some reports of propane tanks, in these fires and recalled some news deal about a propane tank going off during a Meth Lab exploding back when.
She fussed and fumed and wrung hands until I moved a small propane tank from her house, like used for BBQ grills.

"Mom, you expecting them fires in CA to reach here in the South?
You are not making Meth are you?"

She looked at me, with a dumb look.

"Mom, you do realize some parts of the country use Big Propane tanks for cooking and heating. These folks do not have /use natural gas. They don't all blow up every time lightening accompanies rain with a T'Storm. You need to take that TV and and toss it in the trash".

Just what I told her.

I do not personally own a TV. A perfectly healthy person, with commercials will be indoctrinated they have something wrong with them.
I told mom if she ever calls me and says she need to see a Doctor about Erectile Dysfunction, I am going to toss that damn TV so far, so fast it will make her head swim.

CSI Syndrome, another thing. Has not only Juries expecting all this razzle dazzle , now has folks all worried and wanting Gov't to come protect them from - name anything.

Fire?
Yeah, BTDT and more than once. Lost some extremely sentimental guns. Like 3 NIB Colt ARs. 5 NIB BHPs, Two pallets full of ammunition and reloading supplies, ~ 200 1911 magazines.
For starters.

Yeah, it hurts! Sentimental value, not to mention monetary value.
I got memories, and I get tears, I miss the folks more than the stuff gone.

FireFolks did not make a big deal out it.
Heck the fire at a lumber company or paint place had them more concerned.

ArchAngelCD
October 27, 2007, 03:56 AM
It wasn't the ammo that made the firemen "move on." The Media is corrupt and you can't believe most of what they report over the past 8 years. You watch, not only is the ammo evil but they will find a way to blame Bush for the Santa Anna winds too.

sm
October 27, 2007, 04:01 AM
Globular Worming* too, you forgot that.
;)

* Art's term. *grin*

jaydubya
October 27, 2007, 03:26 PM
Archangel said: You watch, not only is the ammo evil but they will find a way to blame Bush for the Santa Anna winds too.

Already been done! Someone made a political cartoon showing a man and woman running from a fire. The man had on a sweatshirt with a logo: "I love Hollywood". He was saying to the woman running beside him, "Now we have to figure out how to blame this on Bush."

And now, Archangel, shall we put this to bed? Over on the S&W site you got rather personal.
Jack

Omega
October 27, 2007, 09:07 PM
I am shooting about 15-20 k rounds a year. I reload. At any given day I'd have at least 10k of ammo (today I have 16K) plus about 20 lb of various gunpowders, thousands of primers, etc
Fire is my very serious concern - is there any liability if someone gets hurt while my house is flames?

RNB65
October 27, 2007, 09:13 PM
Morale: if fire approaches your house and you are ordered to leave your house, take your ammo!

:rolleyes: Uh, no. I would suggest taking your family and not worrying about ammo. Loose ammo going off in a housefire isn't the least bit dangerous to anyone.

Charles Foxtrot
October 27, 2007, 10:04 PM
.
They've even named one of the brushfires the Ammo fire. It is a combined fire, and probably should have been called the Horno fire, as the Horno blaze is older and bigger. But it's probably a good time to impress a message on the minds of our sophisticated voters: Ammo = bad.

Apparently, the Ammo fire was caused by a Marine live fire exercise in Camp Pendleton.

The Lone Haranguer
October 27, 2007, 10:20 PM
I think the poster's concern is not saving the ammo, but as a danger to firefighters.

Studies have been done (I read of one in an old American Rifleman) that show a cartridge in the chamber of a firearm subjected to fire will discharge the bullet at full force, but loose ammo will just cause the cartridge cases to burst and send small bits of brass shrapnel (but not the bullets) flying about. The brass particles do not have sufficient force to penetrate a firefighter's protective coat, pants, boots, helmet or smoke mask.

Just to be prudent, why not lock your ammo up in at least some sort of metal cabinet, or your gun safe itself? That should alleviate any concerns.

ArchAngelCD
October 27, 2007, 10:55 PM
And now, Archangel, shall we put this to bed? Over on the S&W site you got rather personal.
Jack
Over on the S&W forum all I said was:
You posted this over on THR forum too. I'll say the same thing here, the ammo wasn't the reason the firemen left. The Media is corrupt and you can't believe a thing they say. Please stop spreading the propaganda of the Anti-2A Libs.
In no way was I trying to insult you or make it personal. Sorry if you took it that way but that's not the way it was meant. I was only trying to remind you we have enemies all around us and not to be taken in by them just because they are on TV. We have to be on our guard at all times because the enemies of our freedom are very sneaky.

Sorry if you took what I said personally because it wasn't at all meant to insult you.

Peace,
Tony

jaydubya
October 27, 2007, 11:04 PM
The Lone Haranger said: I think the poster's concern is not saving the ammo, but as a danger to firefighters.

I thank you for your support. I cannot believe the flak I have been receiving on two websites from people who seem to think I am a willing tool of the devil. If I may refine the topic, I meant that if you want firefighters to save what is left of your house, ammo should not be going off in it. You want positive vibes about your house when the firefighters come, not negative ones.

Post edit: Archangel has apologized to me privately as well as publicly on two sites. There is peace between us.

Moderator, please lock this thread.
Cordially, Jack

Ed Ames
October 27, 2007, 11:26 PM
The firefighters left because there were several THOUSAND other houses in danger. Think triage. Think "save the houses that can still be saved."

Ammo cooking was not an issue.

karlsgunbunker
October 28, 2007, 12:24 AM
I'm not worried about the 20K+ rds of ammo I have stored.
It's the Several pounds of BP and Pyrodex in the safe that worries me.
Not sure how much of a Ka-boom a pound of Goex in the can will make.

joe4702
October 28, 2007, 12:34 AM
I heard that "reporter" on the radio Monday morning. I was pissed because the guy was implying that bullets and shrapnel were flying everywhere with full force and endangering anyone in the vicinity.

With all that was going on that day, the last thing the public needed was some moron "reporter" spreading misinformation and fear about ammo cookoff.

Misfire99
October 28, 2007, 02:22 AM
For me to take all my guns and ammo I would need an 18 wheeler. I recently moved four states away and I had to make three trips with my 3/4ton pickup for just my guns and ammo.

The next best thing is to put the things you don't want burned up in the refrigerator and freezer, if you a freezer as a separate unit. Stuff that is in this generally don't burn as the insulation prevents it getting that hot inside.

wideym
October 28, 2007, 03:22 AM
Don't think a round cooking off is harmless. Years ago after shooting at friends house in the country, we had a campfire out back after dark. Roasting hotdogs and marshmellows when my buddy throws a dud .38spl in the fire unbeknownst to me. 60 seconds later the dud go's pow and I end up with a very hot primer embeded in my leg. It lodged in the meaty portion of my calf and we fished it out with a pair of needlenose pliers. No permant damage but boy did it sting.

benEzra
October 28, 2007, 10:01 AM
Don't think a round cooking off is harmless. Years ago after shooting at friends house in the country, we had a campfire out back after dark. Roasting hotdogs and marshmellows when my buddy throws a dud .38spl in the fire unbeknownst to me. 60 seconds later the dud go's pow and I end up with a very hot primer embeded in my leg. It lodged in the meaty portion of my calf and we fished it out with a pair of needlenose pliers. No permant damage but boy did it sting.
In reference to firefighters, though, a primer/case/bullet from burning ammunition would not penetrate their suit, as has been demonstrated in many tests.

Oohrah
October 29, 2007, 02:10 AM
I was a professional firefighter, the reporter was a liar in his state-
ment. The only danger in the cook offs would be ammo contained
in the chamber of a firearm. Sometimes black powder stored in
improper containers gave a moment of thought;) Most powder
containers split and burn with a very hot flame, but not with the
same heat range as combustable metals:)

rcmodel
October 29, 2007, 01:53 PM
Flying bullets are not a problem in a fire.
Most center-fire rifle cases are not a problem in a fire.

Beware of the blown-out primers, CF pistol cases, and .22 Rimfire cases though!
They can do a lot of damage at close range!

I did some quick & dirty testing last fall.
Here are the results:

Test set-up using furnace duct sheet metal:
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/AmmoFire1.jpg

One side:
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/AmmoFire3.jpg

The other side:
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/AmmoFire2.jpg

The remains of the cook-off ammo:
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/AmmoFire4.jpg

*Note the .223 did not even blow out the bullet or rupture the case. The slow rifle powder just burned and vented out the primer flash hole.

*Note the aluminum .357 case went clean through the furnace duct sheet metal.

*Note all the .22 RF cases, and the .223 primer almost went through.

My recommendation is to store all loaded ammo or primed cases in steel GI ammo cans.
They are designed to contain exploding ammo in a fire and will prevent primers & shrapnel from possibly injuring a fire fighter who got to close.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

The Bushmaster
October 29, 2007, 03:47 PM
It seems that you have them encased in something, mcmodel. What is it and what if you just layed them out in the open and torched them? I have always been told that unless they are chambered they are mostly harmless. The exploding cartridge in the camp fire is a hollywood mith...

rcmodel
October 29, 2007, 05:01 PM
I had them inside a thin-wall 1" aluminum tube.
It added no velocity, only direction.
I was running the test in my basement and didn't want a case to break a window out.

Ammo in a camp fire?
No myth at all.
The primers & cases could easly put your eye out if you were standing there close to it!
Those dents & holes in 24 gage sheet metal should tell you that.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

jaydubya
October 29, 2007, 10:43 PM
I'd like to put to bed what that reporter said. He said that, as he stood in front of that house where I heard rounds cooking off, that "a bullet landed on his head." I doubt that he was an NRA member, just some guy trying to describe what was happening around him. I do not doubt that, from the rubble, something bounced off his head. He called it a bullet. I transposed what he called a "bullet" into a more proper name for what I think he meant: a cartridge. I have also no doubt that a cartridge can be flung several yards into the air and in any direction by fellow cartridges cooking off. Firefighters, with their visors down, have no problem dealing with this. The reporter was not so equipped.

Can we put this thread to bed? Please?
Jack

BAT1
October 30, 2007, 10:56 AM
I keep most of my ammo in an outbuilding 30 ft from the house, with just the essentials for H/D in the house in a metal lock box. There is always a budding reporter trying to scale the corporate ladder. BBQ tanks and Acetylene and O2 bottles are a big concern to them, not ammo. When we got a equity loan to pay the cards off, they mentioned no flammables in the house or attic due to insurance regs.

The Bushmaster
October 30, 2007, 12:18 PM
I would summize that aluminum pipe would direct the case and/or primer in one direction or another. The Mythbusters did some tests where they threw several different cartridges into a fire and not much happened...Mostly fizzled.

jaydubya
October 30, 2007, 10:13 PM
As the starter of this thread, which I thought had been kidnapped, I must admit this has been an informative exchange. I have learned from it, and I suspect others have too. I offer that this has been an excellent example of the FIRST Amendment at work.
Cordially, Jack

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