[born2_b0whunt]

hey guys I am looking at purchasing my first hunting rifle. I am favoring either the .30-06 or the 7mm. 90% of my hunting is done on elk besides that usually whitetail deer once in a while a muley. I live in Montana so I hunt open parks where it would be nice to take 300 to 400 yard shots once in a while. which do you think would be the best. Thanks
Jake

[earplug]

Find A non belted 7MM based on the 06 case. I believe the round is called the 7mm Remington Express, they changed the name from 280 Remington.
A 7-08 is A fine round too.

[SlamFire1]

There are some fine 7mm rifles out there, for a new shooter, I would recommend advoid anything labeled "magnum".

As I read your post, you are talking about 300, 400 yard shots. If this is your first hunting rifle, you may not be a very experienced shooter, and even with good shooters, 300 to 400 yards is a very long way.

What ever rifle you get, practice with it. Try shooting it in unsupported positions, like sitting. Shoot on paper using a target. Don't shoot at rocks, the dirt splashes make you think you are close, but actually, you are not.

The distance you can keep all your shots on something smaller than a dinner plate is the maximum distance you should be shooting at game. You owe the animal a quick end. For a new shooter that may be 100 yards.

I have always been partial to the 30-06, logistically it is hard to beat. So many choices, and they are easy to find. But if you like 7mm, a 280 Remington is a fine cartridge. The old 7X57 is a fine cartridge, just a little less horsepower. Just advoid a 7mm Mag, too much noise, too much recoil. Takes a lot of practice to control those things.

[lastresort777]

7 mag. is a super-bad caliber.(bad=good) I love the A-bolt by Browning. Now it`ll have to be the X-bolt because the A-bolt is being discontinued.

Not to get off the subject but why in the world would Browning discontinue the most popular rifle in existence?

[Bartkowski]

Not to get off the subject but why in the world would Browning discontinue the most popular rifle in existence?

I have met 1 person who had at one point owned one of these, and hundreds with winchester 70's and remington 700's. I never knew it was that popular.

Back to the original post. A 30-06 will do what you want, but you will have to know your gun and its ballistics if you are going to shoot at that range. I have a 30-06 and a 7mm rem mag. Recoil is the same, so if you can handle one, you can handle the other, but the 7mm is in my opinion a better choice out past 300 yards.

If you really plan on shooting that far I would get a 7mm Rem mag, but if that is just a maybe I will shoot that far, then I would get a 30-06. The 7-08 just seems a little weak at 400yards especially if you were to load it with 160gr bullets or heavier. I am not a magnum type even though I own a Rem mag, so I choose to steer away from the Ultra mags and weatherbys.

And they changed the name back to .280 remington.

[ShunZu]

Lastresort777, good question. My next question would be, why in Hell would the owners of Browning (FN) KILL THE WINCHESTER LINE? Model 94 for over 100 years, 1300's, The Rifleman's Rifle - the Model 70. These are the pieces that have made America great.

Something's sinister here, guys. Anyone agree? Unless I miss my wild guess, FN is -NOT- an American-owned company.

S&W a few years ago come to mind?

Now the A-Bolt, another American classic, is going by the wayside.

Time to say ENUFF. I'm boycotting ANY AND ALL FN-made pieces from here on.... and I'm going to start a threat to this effect. Even though someone just posted a message that "The Rifleman's Rifle is Back", it is NOT a Winchester... just someone who bought the rights -- and brought it back at double the price. BS. I've got all the Winchesters, and A-Bolts for that matter, that I need.

[homers]

For 300 - 400 yd shots, you need a good scope to match a good gun. You can get recommendations of brand and power if needed.

[George Hill]

Hornady .30-06 165gr SST Light Mag: Velocity/Energy:

Mzl: 3015/3330. 300 yard: 2405/2118. 500: 2041/1526

Trajectory in inches:

Mzl: -1.5. 100 yd 1.5. 200 yd 0.0. 300 yd. -6.6. 400 yd -19.3. 500 yd -39.

7MM Rem Mag 154 gr SST:

3035/3149, 2508/2150, 2189/1638.

-1.5, 1.4, 0.0, -6.2, -18.0, -36.1

Personally, I fancy The Seven.

[born2_b0whunt]

thanks you guys are a huge help. I have shot an .30-06 before in fact I killed an elk with one last year and I really liked it. So you also said I need to pratice at different positions. The .30-06 shells are cheaper right?.

[Fisherman_48768]

30-06 will do anything the 7mm Mag will do. On paper the 7MM is supposedly the superior round, in practice the 06 in the hands of a shooter that knows his rifle will do just as good if not better. Why? The 06 has a wider bullet selection available to match the game being hunted at half the cost. I've taken elk with both the 30-06, never took more than one round, the 7mm took 3 shots, all in the chest to just knock it down. If the 06 is only good for 300 yds why then did the military train shooters at 1000 yds.

[born2_b0whunt]

thanks I am still kinda looking at the 7mm though I shot a mule deer buck last year with one across a hay field a 350 yards. I really liked that too. so since the -06 is a .30 caliber it hits harder right?..cause as I mentioned earlier I hunt elk 90% of the time. So I would like to get a gun that can get the job done the best for me and the elk. sorry for the beginner questions but all you guys have been a huge help.

[BigO01]

Both are great calibers but if it makes a differnce to you the 7mm Mag is a bit more expensive to shoot .

For a budget long range caliber you might consider the 270 it too is an established long range round effective on Elk and Deer at the ranges you describe .

[born2_b0whunt]

Thanks alot you mentioned that a .270 is good too. my cousins shoot a .270 WSM. He really likes his gun. I started looking at those too. Can I find a .270 WSM for under $400.00

[mpmarty]

look at the seven mm mag again. It is unbeatable in a rifle with less recoil than a 338 win mag. Seven mm bullets have a higher sectional density (penetrate better and fly faster) than thirty caliber bullets. Yes, the 06 was used in defile fire "over a hill" on people at up to a thousand yards in the "old days". Also in the old days the average person weighed 150lbs and the object militarily was to wound not kill as every wounded soldier took seven out of action to care for him. Those were the days we fought civilized opponents. An elk weighs several times what the old soldier weighed and you don't want to wound him, you want to kill him outright. The seven mm magnum by Remington is the absolute best long range deer and elk cartridge out there and if you handload, Hornady makes a bullet in seven millimeter that has the highest ballistic coefficient of ANY bullet of any caliber, 725 as I recall. Ballistic coefficient is the measure of the bullets drag as it flies through the air which translates to more retained velocity and energy at longer ranges. I have hunted with the 7mm mag since the mid sixties and have taken mule and black tail deer out to a measured 475 yards with the buck standing on a ridge looking down at us. My 7mm mag will print one hole cloverleaf five shot groups at a hundred yards with hunting bullets (if I do my thing correctly). 30:06 is a fine old cartridge but the seven is better for a number of reasons.

[born2_b0whunt]

thank you marty finally something I have been waiting to here I really like the 7mm. That is going to be the caliber I get. You have been a huge help thank you again
Jake

[627PCFan]

30-06 if you want cheap abundant ammo. I have a 7mm because Im an angry ,angry man=)

[MCgunner]

If you handload like me, you can make a 7 mag shoot like a .280, but you can't make a .280 shoot like a 7 mag. That's why I got a 7 mag.

VS. the .30-06, the 7 has better BCs and SDs, more velocity per bullet weight, more energy at range, more of everything. It's a better heavy game round, but either will work inside 300 yards just fine. I just like 7mm bullets, really, though I also have 30 caliber guns as well as a 25 caliber gun.

A 280 Remington will do anything you need doing and recoil is more tolerable than the magnum or the .30-06 with factory loads. If recoil is a concern and you don't handload, I'd go 280 Remington and live happy. There really isn't a bad choice here, so you can't go wrong.

[GunTech]

I live in Helena, and hunt central Montana (White Sulfur Springs area). Most of my shots have been 150-300 yards. I beaned a white tail doe at about 150 yards with my 308 and 165gn SGK. The exit wound was hideous. I'm going down caliber.

For Elk, 30-06 will definitely do the job, as will 280 or even 7x57 at reasonable range and good shot placement. With bad shot placement, a super magnum won't help.

[MCgunner]

Not to get off the subject but why in the world would Browning discontinue the most popular rifle in existence?

I didn't even know Browning MADE an SKS. ROFLMAO!

[North of 49th]

I personaly have a 7mm rem. mag. But then again i am not a small guy and it is not my first rifle. For my first hunting rifle i actually shot my dad's 30-06 savage. Great gun, not to much noise or recoil. But like was already said, 400-500 yards is a hell of a long way. I would try to take a animal at that range unless i had a very good scope a good gun and most importantly i knew how to handle my gun.

[born2_b0whunt]

I live in Townsend so I am very familar with the white sulfur springs area. I hunt over by duck creek or by clancy above park lake. I am not to concerned about recoil I have shot a 7mm before actually killed a deer with one. I think i am going to get a 7mm rem mag. Now I just have to start looking around for one. I found one I liked called a stevens do you guys know anything about a stevens rifle?

[ojibweindian]

I found one I liked called a stevens do you guys know anything about a stevens rifle?

From what I've heard, the Savage Stevens 200 is the old Savage 110 with a different colored stock. Lots of good reviews here on THR.

[trigga]

Just advoid a 7mm Mag, too much noise, too much recoil. Takes a lot of practice to control those things.
my buddy is hunting for the first time this year and he purchased a used remington either model seven or 700 bolt action. it is loud but the recoil was just a bit harder than my semi 30-06. great choice but i just didn't like the $50 scope he had for it. you can barely the target at 100 yards through it.

[jmorris]

Everyone should have at least one 30-06. If your out in the sticks, the local gas station/grocery store will have extra ammo for you (it will be next to the .243, 30-30 and .22lr). There is a reason the 30-06 has been around over 100 years.

[achildofthesky]

I started shooting alot when I was 12 with a handed down to me mauser vz24based sporter in 30-06. At xmas I got my first reloading press to tame the costs of reloading. I am used to it and prefer it myself, and though I hav'nt owned a 7mm mag the numbers look great and there are a huge number of supporters. I think the ammo availability is barely a blip if at all on the radar of concern, given the sheer numbers of rifles in 7mm mag.

I just bought a custom stocked & barreled Ruger M77 in 280 for $200 that I have yet to shoot and am will be reloading for it when the scope arrives.

As far as the recoil factor, I really don't care too much. I really liked all 3 of the 338 Win Mag's I have owned, but here in Aarghkansas there isnt a whole lot of real need for one. Perhaps I will get another if I move back out west...

Yep, I will stick with the '06 and try out the 280 and see how it shoots. If it is as accurate I will keep it, if not I will move it and get something else to play with.

That is one of the great secrets of guns you know. Buy smart and shop hard, if you don't like the gun sell it and get all you $$ back (and maybe a bit more) and try something else...

Just one gals take on it...

Patty

[CoRoMo]

Go with the 06, it is tried and true. I still plan to get one eventually because I reload that round. Not a fan of any European (millimeter) calibers. IMO magnums have become popular for no good reason. I don't expect that I'll ever own one ever. The good ole rounds that our granddads used are good if not better than when he used them. You'll never have trouble finding ammo with the 06, and there is no way you would regret buying it over the 7mm. If it ain't killing elk, you ain't shooting in the right spot.

[SDDL-UP]

You just can't go wrong with either one. The main difference to me is that the 7mm (esp. a magnum) has better range. The .30-06 CAN shoot great distances but it will be more of a challenge.

Fisherman 49768,

It's all about shot placement! I'd say you had three bad chest shots or were just using the WRONG bullet. Things happen. Thousands of people kill elk every year with a single shot from a 7mm remington Magnum, and a 270 Winchester too. NO WAY are 30 caliber bullets half the cost of 7mm, exact same as far as I can tell. You can get more different bullets in .308 diameter (30 cal.) than .284 (7mm) or ANYTHING else for that matter. 7mm bullet selection is very, very good, and I actually can't think of any hunting bullet that you can get in a 30 cal. that you can't get for a 7mm. Now there is no denying that you can shoot heavier bullets in a 30-06, but if a good quality 175gr. 7mm won't do it chances are you are going to want a 338 or bigger anyway.

Having said all that I think the 30-06 is the most flexible round on the planet and if you don't own one now it should still be on the list for somewhere down the road. if you really want extended range perfromance I'd go with a 7mm Remington Magnum or 7mm Winchester Short Magnum.

[one-shot-one]

if you like and want a 7mm mag get it it is a good round. however don't believe all the hype about how much better it is than "?" (fill in the blank).
just aint true, had one and traded it for a 300 wsm, because i reload and got tired of dealing with the "belt". my gun safe is now belt free.
ps "belted" mags are a marketing gimick from the 1960's and are not as easy to accurize in general as a non-belted case.
just my $0.02

[Art Eatman]

Fromn looking at George's numbers in Post #8, I'd say the difference is in one's emotions, not in practical results. Three inches diference in trajectory at 500 yards? 1,600 ft-lbs for the 7mm vs 1,500 for the '06? I really don't think it matters to Bambi, one cartridge or the other.

Having seen folks be off a hundred yards in range estimation when looking at a really long shot, that much "off" means a miss with either one. And if you have a laser range finder and have a teensy-tiny clue about the trajectory, either will hit just where you want.

So?

:D, Art

[MCgunner]

Art, Hornady light magnum is not normal .30-06 and I'm a handloader, don't buy factory ammo. If you try to mimic Hornady light magnum loads by handloading, you're going to blow cases. The 7 is superior when you compare apples to apples, good for at least another 50 yards if not 100 in PBR depending on load. Whether that's important is up to the in individual, but I like mm calibers, specifically the 7, and either gun costs the same, so I went with the 7.

Go with the 06, it is tried and true. I still plan to get one eventually because I reload that round. Not a fan of any European (millimeter) calibers.

So, the 7 hasn't killed an animal since 1962 and has no following or popularity, right? It's just a flash in the pan, a fad, and nobody hunts with it? :rolleyes:

I don't expect that I'll ever own one ever. The good ole rounds that our granddads used are good if not better than when he used them.

Well, I'd rather hunt with the calibers my great, great, great, great, great, ........ granddad used, bows with a flint arrowhead. :rolleyes: Well, yeah, the matchlock was an improvement, no need to go any farther ahead than that, though, right.... well, unless you hunt in the rain, maybe the flintlock is the best, nothing since is an improvement?????

You'll never have trouble finding ammo with the 06, and there is no way you would regret buying it over the 7mm. If it ain't killing elk, you ain't shooting in the right spot.

I don't have trouble finding ammo in 7mm, sell it right down the street at Walmart! I've never actually bought factory ammo for it, though, and of the game I've taken with it, I never used a factory load to do it. It is one of the five most popular rounds in the US after all.

Now, don't take this post personal, I'm just playing devils advocate here and stickin' up for the 7 and some things modern. You can get carried away with the old fart "the don't make 'em like they used to" and "what was good enough for gramps is good enough for me" mentality. I'm fast becoming an old fart, turn 55 on Thursday, but I own a PC with Windows XP, a MP3 player, a digital camera, hell, even a cell phone with an MP3 player and a digital camera built in! I ain't tried to go down to the Western Union office to wire a gram in quite a while. :rolleyes:

ROFLMAO! I love sarcasm, you can probably tell. :D

[HankB]

I've used the .30/06 on numerous deer, as well as gemsbok, zebra, kudu, leopard, impala, warthog, and numerous other species. I've concluded that the .30/06 is a good choice for all thin-skinned, non-dangerous game worldwide, with the possible exception of eland and giraffe.

Looking at the ballistics tables and loading data, I'd say the 7mm mag is a good choice for all thin-skinned, non-dangerous game worldwide, with the possible exception of eland and giraffe.

The 7mm has a slightly flatter trajectory with slightly more velocity and energy. The .30/06 makes a slightly bigger hole and has the option of shooting considerably heavier bullets.

IMHO, assuming the best loads are chosen in each, those who believe there's any tangible difference between the two cartridges in the hunting field have a very vivid imagination.

[Bearhands]

seems to me it's the WONDER of the word "magnum" that causes these debates...

[MDHunter]

For two reasons:

1) Everyone who hunts should own one sometime in their life; and

2) If you ever in rural Alaska on a hunting trip and need ammo, you're sure to have at least 3 calibers available, and 7MM isn't one of them :)

Michael

[Art Eatman]

MCgunner, remember that I've been loading for the '06 for a fair while. Sure, the Federal stuff isn't "normal", but it's readily available. I picked up a box out of curiosity, and it groups as tight as my handloads.

I've not shot the Federals on my 500-yard range, but I've compared my 150-, 165- and 180-grain Sierra loads. There's not a nickel's worth of difference in trajectory, surprisingly enough. All boattails. Roughly, four feet of drop for a 200-yard zero.

I've pretty much come to the conclusion that if you know the trajectory of your load, the particular cartridge is less important than knowing the range. Adding a Bushnell 800 to my toy collection has made long range "rock hunting" a ton of fun. :D (Drive out in the back country, pick out a rock, laser the distance, and play Kentucky windage. Neat deal. Guesstimating out to five hundred is pretty easy holdover, but it gets a tad tricky after that.)

[born2_b0whunt]

thanks for all your opinons I am for sure buying a 7mm though. I am thinking of a Stevens with a leupold 3x9 scope.
Thanks again
Jake

[gyp_c2]

...I'm with Art on this one...tons'a guns out there, but knowing where they'll work...is an edge...
Hell, I can't even see an elk at 400 unless it's in plain view...I have ta' sneak up on 'em while they're busy doin' elk-stuff...http://emoticons4u.com/smoking/rauch06.gif
...havin' said that, I did just pick up a Sears JC Higgins Mauser with a Fajen stock...in 30'06...three in one" with Winchester Supreme 180 Accubond...

[eliphalet]

I did just pick up a Sears JC Higgins Mauser with a Fajen stock...in 30'06...three in oneI'll just say "Yeah," with a big smile for ya.

Wasn't gonna get in this one, but, I bought a 30'06 as my first big game rifle. I later did buy a 7 mag, after a year or five I sold the 7 and still use that '06 every year almost. Sold that 7 Mag over twenty years ago. Several other good guns in several good big game calibers in the safe but that '06 is my "go to" gun nearly every time for what's called big game here. Good chance I will not change in my lifetime unless for medical or age reasons I need to plant elk right where I see em using a caliber/bullet I would feel confident to go through the shoulders. Hate to ruin meat but I can see that being a possibility. So far I have not needed to worry and just use a 150 grain '06, with none moving far at all after being shot, but the thought of a heaver bullet has entered my mind as I grow older and things don't work as good as they once did.
Ah heck I otta just admit, need it or not I have wanted a 375 since reading to much Field & Stream and about Africa as a kid. Almost, once or twice, gosh who makes one in LH...Probably end up with a 338 if anything anyway.

[birdbustr]

Either is fine. I used a 30-06 for my first 20 or so deer and it did great with Federal 150 BTSP Gameking bullets. If you don't handload and want 1 all around rifle for big game, you can't go wrong with a 30-06 or a 7mm Rem Mag. It's .284 compared to .308 diameter round. Recoil is about the same too.
The 7mm Rem Mag is a little flatter shooting due to its lower BC and approximate max speeds of 3200 fps 7mm Rem Mag vs. 3000 fps of the 30-06.

Apples to Apples.

If you talk about 7mm STW or a 7mm Ultra Mag, then you are talking about long range shooters. A 30-06 will reach out too, but much more holdover compared to these. If you don't plan to hunt over 300 yards, you'll be fine either way. I personally am not a 1 gun fits all hunter. I have a 7mm-08 for hunting less than 200 yards or for stalking deer. Sitting on a field where I am likely to shoot more than 200 yards I take the 7m STW.

[uk roe hunter]

how about 7mm08? shoots 140 grain at 2900 ish the bullets have a great sectional density and ballistic coefficient. it is a real dream to shoot with no recoil and will handle most things found even in north america. i use a .30-06 and a 7mm08. the 7mm08 i load with 130 grain bullets.

worth considering?

steve

[Art Eatman]

The common 140-grain 7mm08 bullet is just ten grains less than the common 150-grain load for the '06 or .308, and comes out at the same muzzle velocity.

What's not to like? :) I really don't think Bambi would know the difference. Nor Mr. Elk, either, for that matter...

[uk roe hunter]

Art,
I am with you on this one. there are loads of new calibres out there, sometimes one stands out. One that may be as popular as the classics one day. I think the 7mm08 is one of those calibres. i am going to buy remmy core lokt in 140 gr next time. since buying this rifle my 243 and my .30-06 have not come back out of the cupboard. i will move up to 165 gr in 30 cal and down to 85 in the 6mm. the 7mm will become my general all purpose deer rifle, my 06 will become my big red deer/pig rifle (although i expect it to come out now and then becuase it is just so good) and the 6mm will become a foxing tool.

well thats the plan

steve

[TehK1w1]

I personally would go with a .30-06 in your situation. Over 300 yards the 7mm mag will usually have the advantage, but a well-placed .30-06 bullet should certainly be able to kill an elk at 400 yards, and at shorter ranges the larger diameter of the .30-06 round will provide an extra "Whomp". Additionally, while these are both popular rounds, .30-06 tends to be both cheaper and easier to find, and in my experience, it is an easier round to learn-less flash, less recoil.

Edit-As a side note, I personally would use my Savage 110 chambered in 35 Whelen :)

[Eagle103]

I too had narrowed my choices down to a 7 mag and an 06 for a recent rifle purchase. I already had an old autoloader 06 but wanted a more accurate bolt gun. The allure of a "Magnum" sounded good at first but after looking at the ballistics coupled with the fact I already had dies etc. for the 06 I went with the 06. Not enough difference between the two.

[Harley Quinn]

Eagle103
Good choice, the barrel will last longer and there are many loadings to tune it right into what you are hunting.

[rcmodel]

I get called upon to clean the copper fouling out of 7mm mags much more often then out of 30-06's.
And there are a heck of a lot more 30-06's out there.

Maybe they are all badly copper fouled too, but I doubt it! :D

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

[MCgunner]

Okay, I'm convinced, the 7 is worthless, so I threw it in the dumpster next door today.:rolleyes:

Copper fouling? I haven't had that problem. Of course, I actually CLEAN mine after every use. I don't shoot it all that much, is a hunting tool, not for plinking. Seems, though, that if they are all so hard on barrels as everyone says, there must be a payoff somewhere, like better performance. And, in fact, there is.

[salthouse]

280 Remington is the best of both , 7mm bore and necked down 30-06 case- IMO. I have 100gr loads for yotes and 175gr for moose/bear, 140gr for deer.

[MCgunner]

I just like 7mm bullets and .280 is a fine caliber. I honestly wanted one, but every time I thought about it, I told myself, "You can load the mag to .280 velocities, but you can't load the .280 to 7mm Magnum velocities. So, I bought the mag. Same gun, same action, same weight almost, 2" more barrel in magnum calibers. Same price.

[Regolith]

My father has an M77 chambered in .280 Remington (and one in 7-08 as well). I took my first deer with it. Its a good round, though its easily matched by other, more available calibers.

[MCgunner]

Funny how everyone wants a common caliber. I guess that's good if you don't handload or you hunt in BF Egypt, but I've always been attracted to odd calibers, though I only own one wildcat. I don't know why, but popularity doesn't concern me when choosing a caliber. I do own a .308 and the 7mm, neither of which are unpopular rounds. But, I also have my old .257 Roberts and wouldn't trade it for 10 .30-06s. Sentiment might have something to do with that, but it's a danged fine rifle, very accurate, 2200 ft lbs at the muzzle, and useful on deer to prairie dogs and even good sized hogs with a proper load. The fact that you have to drive to Houston to get factory ammo does not concern me. When I took it west, I'd take several hundred rounds with me just in case I needed to sight in, or something. I mean, you never know what's going to happen. Of course, once I got the 7 mag, I always had a spare rifle. Now, I have other rifles and chiefly hunt with a little M7 stainless in .308, but I still like that old .257.