How do you tell if a gun is +P+ rated?


PDA






vis--vis
October 29, 2007, 02:37 AM
I was bridge hunting in the middle of nowhere with my friends and decided to defend myself against a tree with my CCW. Problem with that was I fired off all my carry rounds and, to my shame, all the ammo I had in my house except for 5 rounds of 115 gr. WWB.

Better than nothing, but that's all I got in my gun. So I am going to order a stash of Winchester 147 gr. SXT. Problem is, I have no idea how to tell if my Glock 19 is rated for it.

I would assume so since you there is no known force on earth which can destroy my Glock (unlike my XD).

Thanks for the education.

By the way, that tree is as good as dead. All 16 shots were center mass and in a tight group.

If you enjoyed reading about "How do you tell if a gun is +P+ rated?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
polekitty
October 29, 2007, 02:42 AM
I would bet the farm your Glock is ok +P+. Glocks main market target is law enforcement, and Federal sells a 9mm+P+ especially for law enforcement. It is available, and legal, for private use. I've shot the stuff in my new Taurus 24/7PRO. It actually doesn't "feel" much different from my Corbon, but I suppose it is. On second thought, it might possibly have a little more bump than my Corbon and Fiocci.

strickj
October 29, 2007, 02:53 AM
I would say so to.the only gun I own far as I know that cant handle them is my ja9 cheap-o-shooter

and btw what forces destroyed your xd?

antsi
October 29, 2007, 03:05 AM
I don't believe there is any official standard for +P+. SAAMI is the agency that sets pressure standards for cartridges, and I don't think +P+ has any exact meaning other than "exceeds SAAMI standards."

Thus I doubt any manufacturer is going to make a blanket statement that it's okay to shoot +P+ because they would essentially be saying "you can shoot anything you are able to physically cram into the chamber."

The general advice given here and elsewhere is that modern quality firearms can probably handle +P+ ammo made by reputable name brand manufacturers. Shoot it through an antique or a junk gun, or use Brand Z Nuclear Hot ammo, and all bets are off.

everallm
October 29, 2007, 08:57 AM
+1 with Antsi

+P/+P+ are not measurements they are marketing devices only, vary wildly from manufacturer to manufacturer and are generally taken to mean.

"Yo sucker, this stuff will make you bigger, badder and cooler than any other guy on the block"

Followed by REALLLLLY small print

Ammunition has been shot by a professional on a closed course. Not intended for real world use, side effects may include loss of hearing, loss of eyeball, loss of digits, coma or death. The above ammunition has not been evaluated or accepted by the FDA and any loss or injury is entirely the fault of the consumer.

In other words Caveat Emptor, shoot at your own discretion and be bloody careful

vis--vis
October 29, 2007, 09:42 AM
Ammunition has been shot by a professional on a closed course. Not intended for real world use, side effects may include loss of hearing, loss of eyeball, loss of digits, coma or death. The above ammunition has not been evaluated or accepted by the FDA and any loss or injury is entirely the fault of the consumer.

In other words Caveat Emptor, shoot at your own discretion and be bloody careful

Haha. Fair enough.

I simply want some good penetration & damage so I can put my foe down. I just don't want my gun to explode while my foe laughs at me and bludgeons me to death with my shattered gun.

vis--vis
October 29, 2007, 09:44 AM
and btw what forces destroyed your xd?

Oh, none actually. I was being somewhat sarcastic and implied the XD was a piece of crap compared to my mighty Glock. :-D

everallm
October 29, 2007, 10:21 AM
Vis--Vis,

Real issue here is better "knock down" rather than higher velocity and not infrequently lower accuracy which is all that + ammunition will give you.
(Accuracy based upon user interaction/experience rather than inherent to the higher pressure....)


Shoot the calibre you are comfortable with, work on accuracy and shoot enough to build muscle memory.

Then look at the various EFMJ, JHP etc rounds out there and discount about 50% of the hype.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Has some potentially useful empirical info on the various types of round in more real world scenarios.

strat81
October 29, 2007, 10:21 AM
1) Read the manual. If it does not state yay or nay...
2) Contact the manufacturer.

I just did this for the Sig P225. The response was that it's fine for +P since that is SAAMI-spec, but not for +P+.

That being said, I'd say a Glock would handle +P+ from Federal or Winchester. I don't think either want the reputation for destroying LE guns.

Deer Hunter
October 29, 2007, 10:25 AM
Most of the "+P" and "+P+" is hype used to sell ammunition. Any modern handgun will handle the slightly warmer loads.

possum
October 29, 2007, 01:38 PM
I would assume so since you there is no known force on earth which can destroy my Glock (unlike my XD).

please explain i don't get it.

the glock will be fine.

Owen
October 29, 2007, 02:11 PM
AFAIK, no handgun is officially rated for +P+.

+P is a standard level above +P

+P+ is a cartidge that exceeds the +P standard. IIRC there is no actual pressure rating for +P+ ammo.

In general a modern pistol should be fine with any ammo. In general handguns are radically overbuilt. Just ask Clark. He should be here any minute :-)

strickj
October 29, 2007, 05:12 PM
Oh, none actually. I was being somewhat sarcastic and implied the XD was a piece of crap compared to my mighty Glock. :-D


lol gotta love glock guys
I was one till I shot my 1st xd

Soybomb
October 29, 2007, 05:59 PM
+P/+P+ are not measurements they are marketing devices only, vary wildly from manufacturer to manufacturer and are generally taken to mean.
That is not correct, there are most certainly some calibers that have +P pressures specified by saami. .38spl is 17k psi, .38spl +P is 20k psi. Thats not marketing, thats a difference in measured pressure. +P+ would be anything over 20k psi in that round. There is no .380acp +P pressure specified by saami, so if you see someone selling .380 +P then its marketing.

everallm
October 29, 2007, 06:43 PM
Soybomb,

My quote above says "vary" and "generally taken"

You have quoted one specific calibre for one manufacturer for one type. So my stance (statistically) is better than yours. Then again stats and lies.....

As I said, this is pure sales BS and is Buyer Beware

Soybomb
October 29, 2007, 08:10 PM
To each his own, I don't call real pressure differences sales BS. I didn't want people to think that there is no such thing as +P when it is in fact a real standard with a measured max pressure in many caliber just like the regular saami spec'ed loads.

RockyMtnTactical
October 29, 2007, 10:05 PM
Try it in the gun in question. If it explodes, it is not rated for it. If it doesn't there's a chance that it can handle it... :neener:

I would ask the manufacturer...

ArchAngelCD
October 29, 2007, 11:02 PM
Did you really shoot off all your SD ammo to stop a zombie tree from eating you?

I would think it wise to save at least 1 mag in case the tree's family came-a-callin.

WVMountainBoy
October 30, 2007, 06:26 AM
DOWN WITH THE ZOMBIE TREES!!!
Okay thats out of my system...but really bullet choice is more important than a +P rating. Expansion and wound channel are more important than getting an exit wound due to velocities that would make a SR71 jealous. Save the money on getting good quality factory ammo that consistantly performs well out of your gun. Hollows are going to be better for SD than FMJ's...buy a few boxes from the major loaders (Federal, Win, Hornady, and maybe even *wretch* Remington) See what JHP your gun likes best, then take down the zombie tree lords with a vengence!

vis--vis
October 30, 2007, 06:46 AM
Did you really shoot off all your SD ammo to stop a zombie tree from eating you?

I would think it wise to save at least 1 mag in case the tree's family came-a-callin.

I did and while engulfed in fear I became imprudent.

Is Winchester Ranger SXT 147gr not a worthy defense round?

Seven High
October 30, 2007, 07:38 AM
FWIW I own a S&W 642. It was not marked for +P ammunition. It was mfg. in 1991. I called S&W. They stated that it was not approved for +p. I do not shoot +P in it. I am having problems finding non +P SD ammo. for it.

Claude Clay
October 30, 2007, 11:35 AM
winchester silvertip hp. try em, work fine for me

The Bushmaster
October 30, 2007, 12:11 PM
Read the manual for your particular handgun or call the manufacturer...

GaryP
October 31, 2007, 12:29 AM
In general handguns are radically overbuilt

Yeah, except Glock with those unsupported chambers! :neener:

Read: KA-BOOM waiting to happen with anything other than SAAMI spec ammo.

:evil:

Owen
October 31, 2007, 12:32 AM
In general handguns are radically overbuilt

Yeah, except Glock with those unsupported chambers!

Read: KA-BOOM waiting to happen with anything other than SAAMI spec ammo.


Considering they are all proofed, they do fine with ammo quite a bit hotter than SAAMI.

It's not so much the pressure that's the problem, is reused, brittle brass, and only with .40's AFAIK.

GaryP
October 31, 2007, 12:45 AM
Considering they are all proofed, they do fine with ammo quite a bit hotter than SAAMI.

Oh, well please enlighten all as to actual (Official) Glock Proof specs for 9mm, .45acp, .40 S&W, & .357Sig. :uhoh:


Thanks in advance

:evil:

ugaarguy
October 31, 2007, 01:06 AM
Soybomb,

My quote above says "vary" and "generally taken"

You have quoted one specific calibre for one manufacturer for one type. So my stance (statistically) is better than yours. Then again stats and lies.....
OK let's look at the major defensive handgun calibers sold in the US. We have .38 special, 9mm Luger/Parabellum, .357 Magnum, .357 SIG, .40S&W, and .45 ACP. Half of those - .38 Special, 9mm Luger/Parabellum, and .45 ACP - have SAAMI standards for +P loadings.

Further, the .357 Magnum came about from Elmer Keith's work with the very hot .38/44 Heavy Duty loadings. Since it's a magnum there's no +P (but the .357 Maximum is out there if you must have more case capacity). The 40 S&W came about as lower power shorter case variant of the 10mm Auto which more shooters could handle. There is no 40 S&W +P because the 10mm Auto from which it was derived fills that next step up. The .357 SIG is little more than a 40 S&W case necked down to 9mm. It produces velocities commonly seen in 9mm +P+ loads, so there's no need for a +P variant - but there is the 9x25 Dillon if you must have it.

In conclusion, half have SAAMI +P ratings, and the remainder have rather uncommon longer case variants to handle the powder needed to gain more velocity.
As I said, this is pure sales BS and is Buyer Beware
OK, now let's take a round that doesn't have a SAAMI +P standard, but does have loads advertised as +P; that being the .45 Colt. If you think Corbon and others are full of BS with 45 Colt +P nomenclature by all means go shoot a few boxes through a SAA, or an Italian or Brazilian SAA clone and let me know if you still have a gun left to shoot them through.

Ken Rainey
October 31, 2007, 02:14 AM
The Winchester 147 SXT is not +P ammo....it is standard pressure...and a fine defense round...now concentrate on shot placement and all is well.

islandphish
October 31, 2007, 03:55 AM
My USP .45f says it is rated for +P+ right there in that little instruction book that came with it.

Soybomb
October 31, 2007, 06:21 AM
FWIW I own a S&W 642. It was not marked for +P ammunition. It was mfg. in 1991. I called S&W. They stated that it was not approved for +p. I do not shoot +P in it. I am having problems finding non +P SD ammo. for it.
I would suggest the winchester Super X 148 gr. lead wadcutter, X38SMRP. They're very shootable and should make as good of a wound as you're likely to be able to get with 2" barrel and standard pressure. If you carry a reload though you might look into something else to carry as your reload rounds.

Owen
October 31, 2007, 09:32 AM
Gary,

In Europe the proofing is done by the government. The proofing ammo is specified by the CIP standard, which is the Euro equivalent of SAAMI.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proof_test

Proof rounds are 25% over the standard pressure.

possum
October 31, 2007, 10:36 AM
Yeah, except Glock with those unsupported chambers!

Read: KA-BOOM waiting to happen with anything other than SAAMI spec ammo.

i am not a big glock fan they are awesome weapons but they just don't do anything for me, bu t as long as you don't or bubba don't double or overcharge a rd while reloading there should be no problems.

atblis
October 31, 2007, 10:43 AM
Seeing as that there's no such thing a +P+, how could a gun be "rated" for it? All it means is that it has more pressure than +P but in theory less than a proof load. I can't imagine that any manufacturer would tie themselves to such an open ended thing with that much potential for disaster.

+P has set pressures with SAAMI being the sanctioning body. Plenty of manufacturers approve +P.

However, +P in some cases is pretty much a marketing exercise. 9x19 in particular.

Jim Watson
October 31, 2007, 11:02 AM
Seven High, my pocket revolver is an elderly M38, definitely not "rated" for +P. I don't care. My hide is worth more than one gun and it is loaded with the best I can buy... 158 gr +P "FBI" lead hollowpoint. It won't blow up and the few annual refamiliarization rounds haven't worn it out yet. If they do, I will replace it.

I am not much in favor of a midrange wadcutter for defense. I went through that phase a number of years ago and concluded that they just did not have the energy and penetration to live up to their appearance.

Buffalo Bore loads standard pressure .38s at or near +P velocity, either lead hollowpoint, JHP, or a hard full speed wadcutter.
http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#standard38

GaryP
October 31, 2007, 01:58 PM
Owen,

The 25% fiqure was what I was looking for. Thanks for the info on this. :)

:evil:

jonboynumba1
October 31, 2007, 02:02 PM
I humbly reccomend 124gr +P instead ...Winchester makes some (since that seems to be your brandd prefference) Gold Dot 124+P would be mine. Corbon also offers some as well as a 115gr +P+ that has a good reputation for being particulary nasty to things and working great in G19's

147's are a bit of an oddball in 9mm IMHO I would assume they are still subsonic in 9mm even in +P If you want heavier than 124gr I'd trade for a G23...though I like the 19 better myself having owned both. Most +P loads are just slightly over max SAMMI loads just as many folks handloads tend to run. +P+ supposdley denotes that they are more than slightly over standard SAMMI specs for a given chambering. But as the other guys mention...it's probably more marketting than meaningful. You don't shoot anything like that in fine collectible P08's for example...in a 19 even hot Izzy subgun ammo won't hurt anything. Go to town -IMHO

I'm not an expert but I once saw one on TV...he looked kinda like me though ;)

Clusive
October 31, 2007, 08:16 PM
From my Glock Armorer's Manual:
http://picsorban.com/upload/glock.jpg

351 WINCHESTER
October 31, 2007, 11:25 PM
For non +p .38 special loads I have a lot of confidence in a hard cast wadcutter at about 750 fps from a j frame snubble.

If you enjoyed reading about "How do you tell if a gun is +P+ rated?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!