Why are AL framed Sigs good, if AL framed 1911's are bad?


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.45&TKD
October 30, 2007, 06:59 PM
If Aluminum framed 1911's are bad (or less prefered), why are are Aluminum framed Sigs good?

What's the difference?

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armed85
October 30, 2007, 07:43 PM
Who said aluminum framed 1911s are bad?

Simply put, whereas a 1911 can do most anything a handgun would be used for, an aluminum framed 1911 is a niche gun.

The light weight increases the felt recoil to a point that it just does not feel like a 1911. This is an obvious trade off, but most people who own a 1911 own it because of how it shoots rather than how it carries in a holster.

In other words, when you reduce the length of the barrel and reduce the weight of the gun, you change the way the gun shoots. You take an excellent shooting gun and turn it into an average shooting gun that's more comfortable to carry around in a holster.

cslinger
October 30, 2007, 07:46 PM
I think there were some wear issues with the feed ramp on early alloy guns where the SIGs have the feed ramp as part of their barrel. Do not quote me on this as I am not 100% sure.

That being said remember SIGs are known for frame gauling and have been known to crack frames and this is coming from a SIG guy.

SouthpawShootr
October 30, 2007, 07:53 PM
Well, I remember from a somewhat long time ago (before internet became the fount of knowledge), the general consensus was that AL framed 1911s were not durable. This was when Colt was king of the pit, Kimber didn't exist, Springfield Armory (the commercial entity) was just starting out, and Para Ordnance only made frame kits. Lots have changed in metallurgy and I would say that today's AL framed 1911s are far superior compared to yesteryear's. I think the original idea was the the slide stop was hardened steel and there was no support for the holes in the frame for it. So, over time you might see an increased incidence of frame cracks. I never seen it happen. Now, Sigs would be a bit better positioned durability-wise b/c the bearing surface is bigger and the locking block is made of hardened steel. Also, remember that in the old days, 1911 enthusiasts were often reloaders and sometimes some crazy combinations made it into the guns.

Cougfan2
October 30, 2007, 07:54 PM
This is old news. This goes WAY back to when some of the very first alloy frame guns were produced. The metalurgy wasn't as good back then so some of them did exhibit an inordinate amount of wear after heavy use. Probably the best example of this is the early S&W Airweights. Also a lot of gunsmiths and gunwriters were of the opinion that if it isn't made of steel, it isn't a gun.

The same type of thing was said when the Glocks started hitting the market with polymer frames and we know that hasn't turned out to be true.

Buy whatever feels good and shoots well.

AK103K
October 30, 2007, 08:50 PM
I had a Kimber Ultra Carry with an aluminum frame. The steel follower on the Kimber mag was wearing a grove into the feed ramp. A plastic Wilson follower solved the problem.

The SIG's dont use the frame for the ramp, so that isnt an issue with them.

The SIG's frames are also anodized, making them harder. I'm not sure how or what they do with the 1911's. Mine didnt appear to be coated, but I dont know for sure if it was or not.

.45&TKD
October 30, 2007, 09:15 PM
The SIG's dont use the frame for the ramp, so that isnt an issue with them.

My question was related to wear. An aluminum framed 1911 does not last a long as a steel framed 1911. But I believe that most of the wear is at the feed ramp, and apparently that is not the case with a Sig.

bannockburn
October 30, 2007, 10:32 PM
.45&TKD

Where are you gettting your information from, i.e., that aluminum frame 1911s don't last as long as steel framed 1911s? Colt first started using aluminum alloy in the Commander series back in 1949. Are these the guns that you're referring to? Even so, I don't think I ever recall reading anything about any aluminum frames wearing out, in the area of the feed ramp, or anywhere else for that matter. After tens of thousands of rounds have been put through them, aluminum frames will show wear in the rails and recoil abutment areas; some will even develop hairline cracks in the grip frame at stress points. Of course, the same thing can happen to steel framed guns too. A lot of this has to do with the amount of ammo going through the gun, what kind of loads they were (full house or lighter), different recoil spring set-ups, etc.
But an aluminum frame being written off because it's worn out-haven't seen or heard anything like that. Please elaborate on your statement.

skinewmexico
October 30, 2007, 11:50 PM
Tradition. When you're talking 1911s, you're not talking technology.

The Lone Haranguer
October 31, 2007, 12:04 AM
On a 1911, during the feeding cycle, the cartridges do impact directly on the frame, and there is a large, square, sharp-cornered cutout in the frame at the rear of the slide stop. On my Colt Combat Commander the top of the cutout is open, whereas on my SIG GSR the frame rail continues over it. This would in theory make it more susceptible to stress cracks. But, especially with modern alloys, I think it would take an immense amount of shooting to cause any problem, if it even surfaces. Also, SIG frames are not immune to cracking. There have been cases of the frame rails cracking off, again after extremely hard use. However, they do still continue to function although accuracy is compromised.

I do not (yet) own a alloy-frame 1911, but concerns about frame durability are not even on my "radar."

.45&TKD
October 31, 2007, 12:23 AM
.45&TKD

Where are you gettting your information from, i.e., that aluminum frame 1911s don't last as long as steel framed 1911s?

Sorry, I thought it was common knowledge. I know that aluminum framed 1911's are good for 10's of thousands of rounds, but it is my understanding that the steel framed 1911's are good for 100's of thousands of rounds.

I don't have an immediate reference source. Maybe one of the 1911 experts could chime in.

.45&TKD
October 31, 2007, 12:52 AM
One source, an old THR thread.

"1911 alloy frame life"
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=32574&highlight=1911+frame

51Cards
October 31, 2007, 01:11 AM
You take an excellent shooting gun and turn it into an average shooting gun...

You've still got the best trigger setup yet devised, and the easiest to modify/tune, re takeup & overtravel. My Defender may have had reliability issues for a while, but "average shooting?" I disagree. For a 3" aluminum frame .45, it is extremely, extremely accurate.

Autolycus
October 31, 2007, 01:26 AM
I had an aluminum 1911 at one point and I liked it. I enjoyed my friends steel colt better. However I enjoy my Sig 228 much more than both.

obxned
October 31, 2007, 11:35 AM
Hey, I loved my LW Commander. It was a joy to carry and although I shot untold thousands of rounds through it, I never saw any signs of wear or cracking.

George Hill
October 31, 2007, 04:58 PM
Out of all my 1911's, only one of them has a steel frame. Didn't plan it that way, but that's just how it worked out.

col_tapiocca
October 31, 2007, 05:32 PM
Why are AL framed Sigs good, if AL framed 1911's are bad?
Who say AL framed SigSauer are good? I'll prefer a full stell 1911.
As a duty gun for police they are exellent but for target shooting they are suboptimal.
Alu framed SigSauer P22x Series are designed to last 15000 rounds only. (referring to requirement specification)

SigSauer P22x are duty guns! Don't have to last for ever. Swiss army use the P75 (civil = P220) as service pistol and our armory keep "sprare frame" to replace if the frame get brocken.

Jim Watson
October 31, 2007, 05:55 PM
Skeeter Skelton cracked a Colt Commander frame in 4500 rounds.
Kimber advertises 20,000+ for their aluminum guns.
Chuck Taylor says 30,000+ for his Commanders and maybe better aluminum than steel.

I wouldn't (don't) worry about it.

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