Fatigue


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Mot45acp
October 30, 2007, 10:14 PM
First off, it has been a while since my last range session. I am trying to learn the art of scoped rifle shooting. After I get fed up with that I head to my favorite range, the pistol range.

The pistol range has no silly one shot every five second rule. I am free to practice in any manor I choose. Controlled pairs, no problem. Mozambique, go right ahead. Three or four targets at once...you get the picture.

My last couple of sessions, the cause for the end of each session was fatigue. Mainly from the elbow down.

I have recently drank the Glock Kool-aid. I have noticed the heavier trigger pull.
But, there is a subtle difference. The plastic frame seems to have a vibration accompanying the recoil. After say 300-400 rounds I start to get a numbing sensation.

Does anyone else experience this?

Regards
Mot

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CWL
October 30, 2007, 10:43 PM
I think that 300-400 rounds for a regular training session is way too much. You stop getting any training benefits after 200-250 rounds max.

Cut down on your high round count/long range time and increase the frequency of your range visits.

Pistolcraft is a martial art, and just like any other excercise, long visits + infrequency don't get better results than consistent & shorter workouts.

Also, to build up physical stamina, do more dry fire excercises when not at the range. Get and use some of those heavy grip exercisers for building grip and finger strength.

RNB65
October 30, 2007, 10:48 PM
I agree with CWL. Why shoot so much? 300+ rounds sounds like overkill.

A poly gun is certainly going to shake, rattle, roll, and recoil more than a heavier, steel gun and be a bit rougher on the hands and arms. I'd use an all steel range gun for 300 round sessions.

Double Naught Spy
October 30, 2007, 11:07 PM
I think that 300-400 rounds for a regular training session is way too much. You stop getting any training benefits after 200-250 rounds max.

Not necessarily as it depends on how he is training, the type of training, the the number of tasks for which he is training, and the amount of time spent training. So, shot count per range session isn't necessarily relevant to determining how many shots should be fired before overly diminished returns.

Why shoot so much?
He apparently enjoys it.

Does anyone else experience this?

The numbing sensation is likely either a nerve issue, vibration issue, or both. You may be holding the Glock in a manner that puts pressure on nerves that end up going numb. Or, somehow the vibration is just such to cause the nerves to numb as can be experienced when handling vibrating items, especially for longer periods of time.

Note that you may not have experienced this with your previous pistol that likely had a different grip angle and circumference. So it may be the change in the grip that is allowing the problem to occur or occur more.

CountGlockula
October 31, 2007, 05:03 PM
I have recently drank the Glock Kool-aid. I have noticed the heavier trigger pull.

Heavy pull? What trigger/spring set up do you have?

My Glock model 35 has a 3.5lb connector with an NY1 trigger spring and its trigger pull is similar to a revolver. Therefore a bit heavier. I like it since it more of a competition/defense/range weapon. Very smooth and consisitent shots.

A Glock stock trigger/spring set up has a lighter trigger pull.

CWL
October 31, 2007, 06:50 PM
Double Naught,
I don't agree with you. Sure anyone can have fun blasting away while plinking or during training classes, but the law of diminishing returns does indeed play a part here. If you shoot to the point where fatigue and pain/numbness sets in, what's the point? Might as well just throw dollar bills downrange for all the good it will do in improving technique & skills.

I've done my share of excercise and martial arts over the decades, if you get to the point of overwork and fatigue, you lose focus on keeping to the proper techniques & stances as well as increase the chance of mishaps & injury. Your body does not benefit since you may develop bad muscle-memory from flinching for example.

Just like any training, there's no point going to the gym once a month and attempting 400 bench presses, it'd be much better to go every week and do 40-100 reps.

Same with gun training, even Fairbairn & Sykes knew this way back during the early 1900's. They noted that it is much more beneficial to shoot only a few rounds at very regular intervals than to shoot many rounds only a few times a year.

mister2
October 31, 2007, 06:57 PM
After say 300-400 rounds I start to get a numbing sensation.


Remember tennis elbow? Basically, it's the tendons getting repetitive trauma, which is similar to what your lower arm endures for 300 - 400 rounds. Maybe full-house 10mm? In a word: overuse.

Anecdotally, I can also confirm that the poly frames have a flex/vibration not felt on the steel or even alloy frames.

Lonestar49
October 31, 2007, 09:36 PM
I shot too many rounds and messed up, read post below..lol


Ls

Lonestar49
October 31, 2007, 09:38 PM
Your right, and I quote ya: "Working for a living is like fighting a war but I don't get to die"
---------

300 - 400 rounds continuous fire, and you're numb..

Sounds about right for a war zone and a pistol.. only ;)


Ls

Autolycus
October 31, 2007, 10:05 PM
Try a steel gun instead of the Glock. ;)

Or you could try an HK with the recoil reduction system...

Double Naught Spy
October 31, 2007, 11:01 PM
I don't agree with you. Sure anyone can have fun blasting away while plinking or during training classes, but the law of diminishing returns does indeed play a part here. If you shoot to the point where fatigue and pain/numbness sets in, what's the point?

As I said, it depends on what he is trying to accomplish. Fatigue training is a valid form of training. It is used in the military amongst other places. Sure, we are all a great shot when we are nice and fresh, or maybe warmed up a little. I don't know about you, but the end of my work day can definitely have me worn out. The same holds for a lot of people. How will they be shooting in a SD situation? How many people have a clue in this regard?

Just like any training, there's no point going to the gym once a month and attempting 400 bench presses, it'd be much better to go every week and do 40-100 reps.

Okay, so when you go to the gym, do you only do 40-100 reps of bench presses and then go home? Probably not. You then go and do 40-100 curls, and so on with other types of weights and exercises. By the time you leave, maybe you have 400-1000 reps done.

Now you will tell me this is where the guy at the gym is working different muscles. Sure, and if you have a full shooting routine, you can work a lot of different muscles as well between changing shooting positions, two handed, strong hand, weak hand, kneeling, sitting, crouching, prone, shooting on the move, shooting from your back, etc.

Yes, you can do a repetitive task to the point where there is little or no training benefit, no doubt, but this isn't necessarily determined by a magic number.

mpmarty
November 1, 2007, 12:07 PM
I strongly disagree with the idea that three or four hundred rounds is too much in one session. Heck, in an hour or so last Sunday I shot two hundred rounds just trying out my new 45 auto for reliability, then went on to shoot for another two or three hours burning through close to five hundred rounds. When I trained small arms in the service I'd shoot all day long, just breaking for lunch and fire in excess of a thousand to two thousand rounds of 45. This type of saturation training is the absolute best thing for improving ones skill level. It makes the synapse path from brain to muscle so fast and automatic you cannot even imagine the speed and control you obtain. This is also referred to as muscle memory and is the major contributor to speed and accuracy with a pistol.

Mot45acp
November 1, 2007, 02:06 PM
Lonestar, that is my old sig line. Where did you dig that up?lol

The gun in question is my G17 all stock except the sights. I havent experienced this with any other gun including a G30, PT 145, 1911, P345.

Maybe its a 9mm thing? Just different recoil that I am not used too?

It feels similar to running a power tool (sander, impact)for an extended time. That is why I brought up the vibration thing.

I got it for economic reasons ie 9mm is cheaper than .45. I get to practice more. Any trigger time is good trigger time.

I usually shut it down when it becomes clear that I am not gaining anything by continuing.

As far as the Glock koolaid. I never liked them. No oohs and ahhs. Its another Glock. Everyone has one. But, it is like the AK 47 of the pistol world. It is ugly and scary and I cant seem to make it fail.

obxned
November 1, 2007, 02:32 PM
First thing I'd do is find a range that doesn't have that stupid 5-second rule. Many of the skills you need to practice can never be done there.

ClickClickD'oh
November 1, 2007, 03:33 PM
Is it a Gen III Glock? I've found that the finger ridges on the Gen III Glocks don't fit a lot of people and cause pain and discomfort in protracted shooting sessions.

hceptj
November 1, 2007, 06:36 PM
I get the same way after 200-250 rounds. I shoot on average 2x a month and will take from 2-5 pistols with me. After 4-5 boxes of ammo I'm tired and it starts showing up on the targets.

Probably, as mentioned above, the more you shoot the lesser you'd feel it and the more rounds you can work through at a time. I just can't afford to go more than I do...:)

sb350hp
November 1, 2007, 07:52 PM
300-400 rounds in what time frame? I have put roughly that many through my 1911 in a matter of a couple hours with no fatigue issues at all. Consider that some of it is rapid fire, double tap, single fire, off of rests, prone, kneeling and just about every other method or posistion you can think of. I do not own any magic plastic (maybe that is the issue??).

I am sure it depends on the person but I don't think (numbness) is cool at all. Do you suffer that with any other handgun after the same process?

MrBorland
November 1, 2007, 08:50 PM
I have recently drank the Glock Kool-aid. I have noticed the heavier trigger pull.
But, there is a subtle difference. The plastic frame seems to have a vibration accompanying the recoil. After say 300-400 rounds I start to get a numbing sensation.

Does anyone else experience this?

Numbness in your trigger finger? Since you mentioned the heavier trigger pull, I had to wonder. When I started shooting revolvers, I experienced numbness in the trigger finger. If so, where are you placing your finger on the trigger? Around the 1st joint, or immediately behind? I've generally felt it ought to be the pad of the finger for semi-autos and 1st joint for revolvers. When shooting a revolver, I get much more control this way, but with the heavier trigger pull (and a lot of shooting), my finger went numb. Even the day after. There's not much meat at the joint to pad the nerves. I still use my 1st joint, but I guess my finger toughened up since it's not getting numb anymore. If you're really shoving your trigger finger way in there, I suggest just using the pad of your finger.

FWIW, I don't think there's a hard and fast rule about round count and fatigue; just stop when you find yourself getting sloppy. Remember: Practice doesn't make perfect. Practice makes permanent. In my experience, "centerfire fatigue" is more insidious, in that it can hard-wire a flinch. I do most of my shooting with .22lr and limit my centerfire to 50 or so rounds per session. Easier on the wallet, too. ;)

Famine
November 1, 2007, 09:38 PM
The most I've shot in one sitting...err...standing...is 200. Past that, I'm not shooting any better, I AM a little tired, and frankly, I'm a little bored.

AtticusThraxx
November 2, 2007, 02:37 PM
Though considered unmanly by some, try a padded baseball glove on your dominant hand.

BridgeWalker
November 2, 2007, 02:48 PM
"No pain, no gain" is a really, really foolish way of turning being ballsy and over-enthused into incurring life-long injury. Ask me how I know. ;)

When bits start going numb, it's time to change something. In most situations, pain is there to let you know to change something.

Also, my shoulder has been hurting for about six years now. I'm twenty-eight. Way too young for chronic pain. But I just had to practice that throw a couple hundred more times...

I realize martial arts to pistol shooting is not a direct translation, but it's close. Heavy stress on your body, more than you realize because it feels so good, both in honing the skill and in the adrenalin of popping off hundreds of rounds. Repetitive motions while subject to these stresses. When you start to seriously notice the pain, it was time to quit about fifty rounds back.

Grandpa Shooter
November 2, 2007, 04:04 PM
Shooting well is more mental than physical. Back when I was a range safety officer at a public range every time the weather became uncomfortable people would start packing up to leave. Only the serious shooters were left. If the weather stayed bad people just wouldn't come to the range. Sure you can get tired working your job or shooting. We don't get to pick the circumstances when it becomes necessary to defend one's self. Unless you practice under all conceivable conditions, you won't be prepared for that one time, and tired is one of the things you may be. Why do you think they ran us twenty miles and then took us to the range back in the service days. It was so that we had to control our minds and attitudes under adverse conditions. Training through the curve of poor performance is critical to readiness.

telkontar
November 2, 2007, 05:11 PM
"I usually shut it down when it becomes clear that I am not gaining anything by continuing."

Not that we've found the root cause, but I think this is the proper training attitude. I still think working to exhaustion on occasion will help the overall marksmanship. Having run marathons and an ultramarathon (including one of each in the same week), I favor working the entire system and losing some precision. It encourages recruitment of muscle fibers provides a benefit as long as the "sloppier" execution does not become ingrained. Posters with military training seem to follow this idea in this thread.

Walkalong
November 2, 2007, 05:21 PM
Shooting more just for the sake of shooting gains nothing.

Quality practice in lesser amounts is better. Same for practicing hitting a baseball, or a golf ball, or whatever.

Quality over quantity. :cool:

wcwhitey
November 2, 2007, 08:28 PM
Back when I shot bullseye practice was all about muscle memory. If you shot your best group of a lifetime after ten rounds then you stopped. If it took 100 rounds then that was when you stopped. The last thing your body remembered was the sequence of events that led up to the nice group. If you keep on going and quit when your shooting turns to crap then that is what your body remembers, crap. It applies to more than bullseye shooting. I did this just the other day with my .44 Magnum. The first shot took out the X. I stopped for that string. 20 minutes later same thing. I then switched to rifle because I knew it could only go downhill from there.

BridgeWalker
November 3, 2007, 04:54 AM
Posters with military training seem to follow this idea in this thread.

Then there's the posters who couldn't get into the military because of the permanent damage caused by working too long. :uhoh: I agree that working to and past exhaustion can be great. But working to and past signs of nerve damage is slightly less great, and could result in, for example, getting turned away by the marines. (And the army, navy, air force, and coast guard...)

Yeah so, personal bias here. Still the op talks about localized numbness. Not the same as fatigue or exhaustion.

Grandpa Shooter
November 5, 2007, 12:50 AM
Yeah so, personal bias here. Still the op talks about localized numbness. Not the same as fatigue or exhaustion

What do you think happens in a real gunfight. The other guy walks around with an orange pastie on his chest and you get to choose when you have just the right conditions to shoot? In gunfights people get shot. The one who can get hit and still keep shooting is the one who wins the battle, not the guy who quits because his finger hurts! Real life armed encounters require being able to return fire under any adverse conditions that arise.

DMK
November 5, 2007, 07:19 AM
Now you will tell me this is where the guy at the gym is working different muscles. Sure, and if you have a full shooting routine, you can work a lot of different muscles as well between changing shooting positions, two handed, strong hand, weak hand, kneeling, sitting, crouching, prone, shooting on the move, shooting from your back, etc.When working out or shooting, you'll always be limited by the weakest link (the most fatigued body part). Even if shooting multiple guns, multiple positions, handgun, rifle, shotgun, You'll still be limited by arm fatigue, eye strain, general numbness of the mind.

What do you think happens in a real gunfight. The other guy walks around with an orange pastie on his chest and you get to choose when you have just the right conditions to shoot? In gunfights people get shot. The one who can get hit and still keep shooting is the one who wins the battle, not the guy who quits because his finger hurts! Real life armed encounters require being able to return fire under any adverse conditions that arise.True. Exhaustion and difficulty should be part of your training, but not SOP. When you get tired, you get sloppy. It's unavoidable. That makes for bad form, shortcuts, improper technique. The whole purpose of training is to practice the right way to do something. You don't want to be learning poor form. Imperfect Practice makes for poor performance.

You should only practice adversity once you have completely mastered technique and can do it repeatedly without a thought. Even then, you need to alternate adverse conditions with normal training, with the majority being the normal training.

Ala Dan
November 5, 2007, 07:23 AM
Yes, I have experienced fatigue very quickly; especially after my MVA in
which I was almost killed~! Broken neck, crushed left wrist with nerve
damage does not do well on the firing line; but like other's, I have good
days and I have terrible days~! :scrutiny: :uhoh: :eek:

-terry
November 5, 2007, 01:30 PM
You're not training for battle are you? How tired can you get in 3 - 5 seconds?

The fatigue issue enters with range work. Shoot til you get tired then save the rest of the ammo for another day.

Grandpa Shooter
November 5, 2007, 01:56 PM
You're not training for battle are you? How tired can you get in 3 - 5 seconds?

The point I am trying to make is that you don't get to pick when you have to respond. The OP may have just left the range and his hand is cramping really bad. He stops at the ATM and someone confronts him and it turns ugly. He may have to draw his gun, and may have to use it with that same hand. Not unlike me with arthritis in my hands. I have to train drawing, shooting, holstering, working the action, with hands that hurt like ****. And yes, to me all the work I do with a hangun, while fun, is about training!

mljdeckard
November 5, 2007, 02:11 PM
I WISH I had ever fired 300 consecutive rounds in the army. Not even in the MGs on the tank.

With my Glock, I also had a Advantage Arms .22 conversion kit. I cranked out 1000 rounds one fine saturday afternoon. Not only was my right hand tired, I got a LOT of practice with my left hand as well. I felt it the next day.

If people ask me for the definitive reason I switched out the Glock for the 1911, I tell them that the Glock has a gooey trigger. The Kimber doesn't. (And yes, I did the same 1000 round drill with the .22 kit on the 1911, it was much less excruciating.)

Snipe315
November 5, 2007, 05:46 PM
I see lots of people commenting that shooting 300-400 rounds in a single session is the norm for them.

Must be some RICH people on this board. :scrutiny: Either that or they aren't shooting to often.

I used to shot 200-250 rounds of 45ACP each range session and I went at least once a week. That was about 1,000 rounds a month for about $200. That was and still is reasonable to me has far as number of rounds/frequency/cost.

Now that ammo prices have almost doubled, :eek: I only shoot 150-200 each session. Often this seems like to light for a good session but I just focus more on making each shot count.

BridgeWalker
November 5, 2007, 10:18 PM
Yep, one has to able to perform under adverse circumstances. I guess for me the breaking point between good training and just dumb comes when one is deciding to create a potentially permanent impairment in the name of preparedness.

I'm very, very prepared for situation where I need to shoot one-handed, because I can't shoot two-handed. Permanent damage from training too intensely. Trouble is I can't shoot worth a darn off-hand. Willpower rarely works over frayed tendons and destroyed nerves. I gained a serious strategic disadvantage by training too intensely.

But hey, do what works for you. Someone's gotta keep the orthopods in business, and I've done more than share for one lifetime! :o

C. H. Luke
November 5, 2007, 11:26 PM
"Willpower rarely works over frayed tendons and destroyed nerves. I gained a serious strategic disadvantage by training too intensely."

Sage advice at a minimum!

Read some of John Taffin's work? Don't want to end up crippled with arthritis from years of shooting "to much", to often, etc.

That "vibration is actually "shock" and similar to one's hearing if not "protected" and allowed to rest properly can only lead to worsening problems soon or in ageing.

One more thing: Popping pain killers, Rx or otherwise, is one thing when one is "young" and quite another when one is older and still actively shooting!

TimboKhan
November 6, 2007, 01:19 AM
First thing I'd do is find a range that doesn't have that stupid 5-second rule. Many of the skills you need to practice can never be done there.


Evidently he did do that first thing, since he said that his range does not have a 5-second rule.

TimboKhan
November 6, 2007, 01:23 AM
I see lots of people commenting that shooting 300-400 rounds in a single session is the norm for them.

Must be some RICH people on this board. Either that or they aren't shooting to often.


I have shot one caliber this much on more than one occasion, but it only cost me about 10 dollars. Guess what I was shooting?

I have also shot around that many rounds across a variety of guns, but not all that often. Generally, I find that after about 200 rounds, I am pretty much done, and I will spend the rest of my range time shooting the bull (uh, no pun intended) with my shooting buddies.

Mot45acp
November 6, 2007, 06:15 PM
The G17 is my only 9mm. The 3 main reasons I got it:

1. Cheaper than .45 = more practice.

2. I wanted a Sub 2000 and they dont make one in a .45

3. Wanted a black uber evil, high capacity, livestock raping, pistol.

Had to take a physical today. Preliminary says no to any nerve damage. Said its normal when exposed to vibration. Got the "Why do you need to shoot so much?" from the Dr. But thats another thread.

The fatigue was localized.(from the strong side elbow to hand) I usually load my mags before I go to the range. Consists of 5-9, 17 or 19 rounders and 4-6 33 rounders. A couple of handfulls pulled out of an ammo can. It all depends on if I feel like unloading my SD rounds.

edit to ad: the rifle range is 1 shot for five seconds. I walk across to the pistol range to practice pistol firing.

littlegator
November 6, 2007, 06:19 PM
The most I've shot in one sitting...err...standing...is 200. Past that, I'm not shooting any better, I AM a little tired, and frankly, I'm a little bored.

I smell an anti-gun, liberal sheeple blissininny troll on this thread. Bored. Pleeeeeez. (Just kidding). :p

Actually, can you get carpal tunnel from shooting pistols too much?

Grandpa Shooter
November 6, 2007, 06:45 PM
:You guys are making me think too much. Got me wondering now if the peripheral neuropathy in my hands is from shooting too much. Never gave it a thought. I shot 4-500 rounds a week for 4 years or more and got really good. Now my hands are numb much of the time and the last two fingers on my left hand don't want to uncurl. I am on meds for it which help somewhat. Never made a connection til now. Maybe I better cut back a bit.

I thought it was from driving and using power tools for a living! Yeh that must be it!

Lonestar49
November 6, 2007, 07:06 PM
...

Or a combination of all 3..

So much for Celebrex, not much to celebrate.. Bring back the Viox..


Ls

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