Pay attention to the ammo you buy.


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doorman
October 31, 2007, 05:59 PM
I was wondering if this has happened to anyone of you out there.

Last Friday I go to the local gun shop to buy various types of ammo for my new SA 1911a1. I am running .45 ACP from various manufacturers and various weights to see where any malfunction may occur.

Go to the range on Saturday with my daughter and we start with the Federal American Eagle. All of the sudden weird things start happening. I experienced two hang fires. I mean the hammer goes down and about a half second later the gun goes bang. I started to get all kind of jams, stovepipes, double feeds, FTF and FTE.

My daughter who is only seventeen wants to know what kind of crap did I buy. I pull to box cover and discover that I am putting .45 GAP and not .45 ACP.:what: I stack the two rounds next to each other to see the difference and notice the .45 GAP is slightly shorter.

The guy at the gun shop had pulled the ammo and I did not pay attention and it was an honest mistake on his and my part. The boxes of American Eagle look the same and were stacked next to each other.

Has this happened to anyone else and would this damage the pistol?

RU

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Cougfan2
October 31, 2007, 06:05 PM
You're lucky you didn't damage your gun. I not only check the outside of the box, I look at the actual cartridges inside the box. It is rare, but not unheard of to get, let's say, 30-06 in a .270 box. Sometimes QC takes a nap even with the best companies.

BobMcG
October 31, 2007, 11:08 PM
Never had it happen although I can see it happening. I always check the box myself and the rounds that are in it. I've also sold a lot of ammo and always made darn certain I handed over the correct ammo too. Check and double check.

The Bushmaster
October 31, 2007, 11:37 PM
Honest mistake? On both of you? Nope...Failure to pay attention. And broke one of the rules of firearms. Use only that ammunition designed for that particular firearm...

RecoilRob
November 1, 2007, 07:26 AM
Just shows you that the 1911 doesn't normally headspace on the case mouth....the extractor holds the round against the breachface well enough for the firing pin to make contact.

Many 10mm Colt owners have tried firing 40 S&W (either accidentally or deliberately) and found that it can be done. Depending on the particular extractor tension, some guns run remarkably well with the 40's!

Highly doubtful that you did any damage by running some GAP, but of course, you shouldn't do that now that you have noticed the problem.

Don't worry about it. You learned a valuable lesson and I highly doubt you will ever have this problem again!

MustangHowie
November 1, 2007, 09:20 AM
I was talking to one of the dealers one day, and he showed me a 9mm casing that was bulged. I asked him what happenned and he said that he sold a guy a .40 and he bought ammo from Walmart and that was what they gave him!

possum
November 1, 2007, 01:13 PM
:banghead:

i think that i would notice while loading the mags.

Halo is for Kids
November 1, 2007, 11:59 PM
Anyone want to post a pic of comparably weighted 45 gap and 45 acp side by side?

At sportsman's warehouse in AZ they had a sign over the 45 gap stating that it will not work in 45 acp pistols and there will be no returns accepted. A few of the boxes above the sign had been opened and resealed with tape. I guess for some, even reading the box isn't enough.

I've heard such things as 44 magnum will work fine in a 44 Russian revolver. 9mm is 9mm, 38 is 38, 44 is 44, and 50 is 50 right?:rolleyes:

C-grunt
November 2, 2007, 03:45 AM
My friend bought a box of 30-30 Remigton CoreLokt and it was full of .222 Remington

mljdeckard
November 2, 2007, 04:18 AM
Don't be too hard on the guy.

There was a time when I though there was only one kind of Colt .45. If HE's a bit of a rookie, and they guy behind the counter was also scratching his butt, how was he supposed to know that ACP and GAP aren't the same thing? Especially when they load up and fire?

NO ONE GOT HURT. Good lesson.

1911Tuner
November 2, 2007, 08:32 AM
...the extractor holds the round against the breachface well enough for the firing pin to make contact.


As will a .308 case in a .30-06 chamber...but that doesn't indicate that it's normal for either to headspace on the extractor.

The 1911, or any other rimless autopistol cartridge will headspace on the extractor only if things are so badly out of spec that the gun won't fire reliably...as indicated by the GAP experience reported here. Only if the chamber shoulder is cut so deep...or the case is so short that the firing pin drives it in so far that the forward movement of the cartridge is halted by the extractor hook catching the rim.

Headspace is:

The difference between the linear distance from breechface to chamber shoulder with the gun in battery, and the length of the cartridge case. Working headspace will vary from shot to shot unless all cases are exactly the same length.

SAAMI minimum/maximum case length for the .45 ACP is .888-.898 inch. Maximum static headspace dimension for the 1911 is .920 inch. The nominal distance from the breechface to the rear of the extractor claw is .075-.080 inch. With a minimum-spec case, and even if all the excessive static dimension results from deep chambering...which it usually doesn't...the worst-case scenario puts the case .045-.050 inch away from headspacing on the extractor.

ADKWOODSMAN
November 2, 2007, 08:42 AM
At the range, I saw a fellow shoot 2 rounds from a Garrand and no holes in the 100 year target. He was confused, but when we looked at the empties they were .270!!

Walkalong
November 2, 2007, 08:43 AM
Nope...Failure to pay attention
Yep. Period. They look a LOT different.

:banghead:
i think that i would notice while loading the mags
Yep. Good lesson learned with, fortunately, no ill affects. :)

1911Tuner
November 2, 2007, 07:49 PM
At the range, I saw a fellow shoot 2 rounds from a Garrand and no holes in the 100 year target. He was confused, but when we looked at the empties they were .270!!

Easy mistake to make, since the two calibers are based on the same case,
like the .32 Winchester Special and the .30-30 Winchester. If ya don't look close...

jad0110
November 2, 2007, 09:37 PM
The guy at the gun shop had pulled the ammo and I did not pay attention and it was an honest mistake on his and my part. The boxes of American Eagle look the same and were stacked next to each other.

Has this happened to anyone else and would this damage the pistol?

Something similar happened to a guy over in The 642 Club when he fired a few 38 Supers through his J Frame :what: . I didn't even think that would be possible, but apparently it was.

JHansenAK47
November 2, 2007, 09:40 PM
Couple years ago, I was wanted to go shooting and was looking for bullets and found a box of Norinco 9mm. I opened up the box and pulled one out to look at it and the case was split down the side. I then looked through the box and found 4 more with splits in the brass. The brass had probably been there a couple years as it was my father's ammo and he never goes shooting anymore.
I've had surplus ammo split when I was shooting it to and vent toward my face(M38mosin). I always wear safety glasses when shooting any kind of milsurp ammo or reload.

Z71
November 5, 2007, 02:32 PM
A coworker came back fron the store with .243 WSM instead of .243 Winchester.

Had to borrow ammo from me to finish hunting the weekend until the store opened back up Monday.

XDKingslayer
November 5, 2007, 04:13 PM
Anyone want to post a pic of comparably weighted 45 gap and 45 acp side by side?

They look almost identical, however there are some glaring difference between the two that most people would never notice.

The GAP is about 1/8" shorter than the ACP, the extractor cut is a steeper angle and it uses a small pistol primer instead of a large pistol primer.

Both the GAP and the ACP headspace on the case mouth so it shouldn't have fired. Obviously, that's not always the case.

orionengnr
November 7, 2007, 11:48 AM
...and no holes in the 100 year target.

Wow, where do I get one? My targets don't last five minutes! :)

novaDAK
November 8, 2007, 08:44 AM
I blame Glock for giving his new caliber a name so close to an existing caliber. I mean come on...ACP GAP...

It would be like if Ruger came out with a new 9mm called 9mm Ruger. That would surely confuse some people since there's already 9mm Luger. :)

WAID
November 8, 2007, 11:51 AM
You're lucky you didn't damage your gun. I not only check the outside of the box, I look at the actual cartridges inside the box. It is rare, but not unheard of to get, let's say, 30-06 in a .270 box. Sometimes QC takes a nap even with the best companies.

I doubt it is QC at the company level. The way factories run batches and seperate things makes it pretty hard to do any mixing. However you never know when somebody has been "comparing" the ammo on the shelf even the stuff behind the counter and returned it to the wrong box.

sixgunner455
November 8, 2007, 03:44 PM
Something similar happened to a guy over in The 642 Club when he fired a few 38 Supers through his J Frame . I didn't even think that would be possible, but apparently it was.


Not only is it possible, there is no reason why it shouldn't work in the particular case of a .38 Special and a .38 Super. The Super is called a "semi-rimmed" cartridge. It will headspace, fire, and extract, because it has that little nubbin of a rim on it. When I have seen someone do this, the accuracy was poor (2 inch or less groups with .38 Special vs. 6"-8" groups with .38 Super), but would still have been fatal torso hits. I suppose that is from the freebore the bullets have in the cylinder, combined with the .355" bullets out of the .38 Super going down a .357" tube.

Guy who showed this to me was from another country, and told me that when he was in his native country and couldn't get the proper ammo, he could usually find .38 Supers instead. His was a Smith & Wesson Bodyguard, first J frame I ever fired. I had thought that .38 Special was easier to find, but apparently, not everywhere in the world.

Deer Hunter
November 8, 2007, 04:52 PM
Had something liket his happen to me. My cousin wanted me to shoot his 7mm mag. I enjoy shooting, so why not? Bad part was all he has were .270 rounds.

40SW
November 8, 2007, 05:12 PM
Glad you are ok!!, could have been much worse. Isn't the .45GAP standard chamber pressure about 10-15% over the .45ACP standard?

The Lone Haranguer
November 8, 2007, 10:26 PM
At sportsman's warehouse in AZ they had a sign over the 45 gap stating that it will not work in 45 acp pistols and there will be no returns accepted.

For those not familiar, at these stores you take the ammo off the shelf yourself and take it up to the registers. :cool: A novel concept. ;) Barring oddities like a total misboxing of the ammo, the onus is also up on you.

They also do it with .357 Magnum (revolver) vs. .357 SIG (auto) ammo. A good policy. My policy, if buying where someone has to get the ammo for me, is to double-check the box(es) before the cashier starts ringing them up.

Halo is for Kids
November 9, 2007, 12:06 AM
For those not familiar, at these stores you take the ammo off the shelf yourself and take it up to the registers. A novel concept. Barring oddities like a total misboxing of the ammo, the onus is also up on you.
True, and that's the way I like it.

I did have a cashier at Sportsman's Warehouse open a 1000rnd case of 7.62x39 that I was buying:fire:. Ruined a perfectly good sealed case so she could count the boxes individually. The contents were printed on the side of the case!!! It was closing time and it was the last case so "que sera sera"

jpwilly
November 9, 2007, 12:08 AM
Yes that can and will happen. I have had to correct sales clerks before when they handed me the wrong box of ammo. Most often they didn't know the first thing about firearms or ammunition. You are speaking a different language and many people don't understand!! Watch them, read the box, check the headstamp don't assume anything it's your saftey.

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