Bear Attack: Say a Prayer


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Wildalaska
July 15, 2003, 07:57 PM
Follows is the sketch story, more details below;

Brown bear mauls man at Russian River campground
Campers advised to stay in cars until daylight because of danger

The Associated Press

(Published: July 15, 2003)
A brown bear sow mauled a man early Tuesday morning at the Russian River Campground on the Kenai Peninsula.

Dan Bigley, 25, was reported in critical condition at Providence Alaska Medical Center in Anchorage.

Doug Stockdale, spokesman for the U.S. Forest Service, said Bigley's address was listed as Girdwood but that he may be a seasonal worker there.

A sow with two or three cubs charged several people near the stairs of the popular camping area at around 12:30 a.m., Stockdale said.

Witnesses said several brown bears with cubs as well as a black bear were spotted nearby.

Bigley was flown to Anchorage and arrived at about 3:20 a.m.

Campers were encouraged to stay in their vehicles until daylight.

The Forest Service and Alaska State Troopers discouraged fishing on the river until daylight. They also posted warning signs at the campground, trailheads and the ferry that crosses the Kenai River just below the Russian River.
_______________________

I heard this AM that the attack occured becasue the victims dog chased the bear, then of course revered itslef and came back... I also heard that he did not have a weapon or at least could not use it.

And before I hear a litany of "he should have had a gun" etc and all sorts of second guessing, I would note that per a conversation I had with someone in the medical field this am, that the victim besides having horrific facial injuries, has lost BOTH his eyes. Truly a tragedy and he deserves our prayers.

I for one am going to the Russian River this week, I am carrying a shotgun instead of a pistol. Hopefully the bioligists will scare the bear off....

WildAlaska

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spacemanspiff
July 15, 2003, 08:02 PM
i'm going to the kenai to do some dipnetting. doubt bears make it down to the mouth of the river. but i'll have a firearm nearby.

why is it local residents that always encounter bears like this? i think bears are committing hate crimes upon us. they hardly ever do this kind of thing to tourists!

sorry to be flippant. regards to the man who was mauled.

TallPine
July 15, 2003, 08:14 PM
Another one of those "rare" bear attacks ... :rolleyes:

4v50 Gary
July 15, 2003, 08:18 PM
There's a reason why we're suppose to be on the top of the food chain and not part of the food chain. Prayer said for this woe begotten man.

Cosmoline
July 15, 2003, 08:19 PM
Sows seem to go for the eyes. I even recall a BLACK bear sow slashing I guy's eyes a few years back, and it's unusual for them to attack at all. They must have learned to "fight dirty" to survive against the larger bruins.

I've seen these guys move, and even thick devil's club won't slow them down much. The shoot through it like a torpedo. The fellow in question might not have had any time to react. If I ever get charged by a sow, and can't get to my piece in time, my plan is to cover my head with my hands and drop, lying perfectly still. That seems to work with them. Of course, it doesn't often work with predatory black bears or angry brownie boars.

The dog thing doesn't surprise me. The one time I got run down by a moose, it was because some dogs made him mad and he took it out on me. That was a memorable experience! It reminds me of what an old timer up here told me. Keep a dog you don't like around for bear protection, along with a .38. When the bear comes down the trail chasing him, shoot the dog with the .38.

spacemanspiff
July 15, 2003, 08:51 PM
i read somewhere taht black bears in general wont attack because you are food to them, but because they like to use you as a big chewtoy that flops and flails around. so playing 'dead' would cause a black bear to get bored.
and brown bears/grizzlies are more prone to attack because you are food for them, so fighting back was advised.

this is all moot if its a sow with cubs, she'll attack anything to protect her young.

Wildalaska
July 15, 2003, 09:02 PM
I assume that the drop and play dead technique works with sows becasue all they want to do is remove the threat so they can escape with their cubs.

WildnocommenthereAlaska

Wildalaska
July 16, 2003, 12:57 PM
Heres the follow up...

Grizzly mauls Russian River angler
CRITICAL: Bear-human encounters escalate, leave four bears dead.

By CRAIG MEDRED
and DOUG O'HARRA
Anchorage Daily News

(Published: July 16, 2003)
RUSSIAN RIVER -- A 25-year-old angler seriously mauled by a brown bear here early Tuesday was being treated at Anchorage's Providence Alaska Medical Center as state and federal officials tried to decide what to do about a growing bear crisis along the state's most popular salmon stream.

Daniel Bigley was just feet from a stairway that leads to the Grayling parking lot in the U.S. Forest Service's popular Russian River Campground when he was apparently jumped by a brown bear sow with two cubs, according to U.S. Forest Service officials.

He was in critical condition Tuesday night, having had part of his face torn off and losing at least one eye, according to witnesses.

Details of the attack were sketchy, but retired Col. Frank Valentine, a former member of the U.S. Army Rangers, said he and his wife, Celeste, were settling into bed in their trailer about 100 yards from the parking lot at 12:30 a.m. when a car horn started honking.

Moments later, he said, a young man and a young woman came pounding on his door.

"They were in shock,'' Valentine said. "They were very, very anxious and scared to death.''

They told him of the mauling and asked for help. Though it was still light enough to see, Valentine grabbed a flashlight and headed for the stairs.

He said the two young people told him they'd been standing near the top of the two-tiered stairway when they heard shouting below. Then three bears -- what appeared to be a sow grizzly and two cubs -- bounded up the steps.

The couple, Valentine said, turned, ran and dove through an open window into the back of a Chevrolet Blazer. The bears ran past and back into the woods. The couple started blowing the horn to attract attention before going for help.

When Valentine returned with the couple to the head of the stairway, he sent the woman to wait in a nearby restroom built of concrete blocks, while he and the young man headed toward the river.

About 20 to 30 feet from where the trail from Grayling meets a trails that runs along the water, they found Bigley and a friend down in tall grass and brush. The friend was trying to stop Bigley's head from bleeding. At first, Valentine thought Bigley was dead.

"He had severe trauma,'' said the Vietnam veteran on vacation here from his Georgia home. "I've been in combat, and I've never seen anyone with those type of injuries who has survived. It looked like he had been blasted in the face.''

But when Valentine checked on Bigley, he found the man conscious, his pulse good and his airway clear. Valentine called 911 on his cell phone.

"There really wasn't anything we could do down there except wait to transport him,'' he said.

As Valentine and the others waited, more volunteers trickled in -- a man with a shotgun to keep watch in case the bears returned; another arrived with a first-aid kit started cutting off Bigley's waders. People with flashlights showed up to light the campground road for emergency crews.

By the time Cooper Landing Emergency Medical Technician Carrie Williams arrived, the community's volunteer firefighters, Alaska State Troopers and more than a half dozen others had gathered. She described the scene as "chaotic,'' but manageable.

"Thank God he was on the stair side'' of the Russian River, she said.

Williams helped stabilize Bigley. He was then lashed to a backboard. Volunteers carried him up the stairs to a waiting ambulance. The ambulance took him out of the campground and about a mile down the Sterling Highway to a wide spot in the road near the Resurrection Pass Trail head.

A Providence Lifeflight helicopter waited there to fly Bigley to Anchorage.

Friends described Bigley as a newcomer from Arizona with a yearning to discover America's last great wilderness. He had a degree in environmental sciences, said Girdwood neighbor Jennifer White, and was working as a counselor at Alaska Children's Services in Anchorage.

A co-worker there, Brad Precosky, the well-known Alaska mountain runner, said he'd just sold Bigley a plot of land with a cabin in Bear Valley above Anchorage. Precosky said Bigley was full of enthusiasm about living in the mountains and imagined skiing down some of the gullies near his new home.

"I had a good feeling about him," Precosky said.

"He's done quite a bit of guiding in river rafting and hiking," White said. "He's not the kind of guy who would have been out there causing a big ruckus.''

It appeared, according to authorities, that Bigley simply stumbled into trouble on his return from an evening of fishing. He was following a trail used by thousands of people every summer. Valentine had just come up the same trail, carrying a limit of three red salmon.

"I had walked that same path maybe 30 minutes before they did,'' he said, "I walked it alone, but I sang the whole way. Just for the grace of God, it could have happened to me.''

Bear problems along the river have escalated since the middle of last month when the first of two annual returns of red salmon arrived late. Kenai Peninsula area wildlife biologist Jeff Selinger with Fish and Game said that in recent days there have been reports of several grizzly bear sows with cubs in the area, as well as a number of black bears.

Problems grew serious a week ago when an angler was charged by a brown bear sow with three cubs. He shot at her to protect himself. The fate of that bear was unknown until two days later when the cubs were reported up a tree in the Russian River Campground.

The rotting carcass of their mother was found not far away. Alaska Department of Fish and Game regional wildlife supervisor Jeff Hughes said biologists subsequently decided to euthanize the less-than-50-pound cubs because no zoo or other wildlife facility could be found to take them.

It was not, Hughes added, an easy decision. Fish and Game, he noted, is in the middle of a program trying to preserve a Kenai brown bear population believed to be threatened by increasing development.

"We've got to do a better job,'' he said. "Maybe we need to provide the bears with a buffer.''

In the aftermath of the mauling, the U.S. Forest Service has closed the Russian River Trail and the banks of the river from the falls to the confluence from 11 p.m. to 6 a.m. through July 25.

The Forest Service has no authority to prohibit fishing, so anglers could walk up the river and fish. Anglers will, however, be unable to drive to the Russian River Campground, get a parking space and walk down to fish.

Even with the sun high and hot on Tuesday afternoon, a trio of yearling grizzlies was busy making trouble in plain sight near the confluence of the Russian and Kenai rivers.

"We've got ourselves a messy situation,'' Selinger said, "a situation that has the potential for a lot of problems.''

Kenai refuge officer Kevin Shinn said one of the yearlings appeared particularly aggressive. It came out of the woods near the Kenai River ferry, he said, grabbed a backpack and then started looking for more.

"They continued to work downstream,'' he said, "working from stringer to cooler, whatever they could find.''

Anglers expressed varying degrees of concern. At the top of the Grayling stairs, Dave Howard, a superintendent at Costco in Anchorage, and his father, Dave Sr., were geared up to go fishing, bears or no bears.

Veterans of this river, they figured they could get along with the bears. The last time fishing, the younger Dave said, "we saw four grizzlies and a black. We stayed away and gave ground."

"Hey, this is their river,'' added Dave Sr. "These guys were here before we were here. It's their fish.''

________________________________________

Bet we see some one shooting their friend becasue they think its a bear..

The solution?

Close the whole river or rubber bullet them!

Keith
July 19, 2003, 03:31 PM
Aftermath:

Friends describe fishing trip turned nightmare
RUSSIAN RIVER: Bear with cubs "really aggressive" just before mauling.


By CRAIG MEDRED
Anchorage Daily News

(Published: July 19, 2003)
With 25-year-old Daniel Bigley still fighting for his life at Providence Alaska Medical Center on Friday, details were beginning to emerge about the Tuesday morning bear attack that turned a pleasant fishing trip to the popular Russian River into a nightmare.

Bigley's friend and fishing companion, Jeremy Anderson, said he was at the top of a stairway leading to the Grayling parking lot in the Russian River Campground around 11:35 p.m. Monday when he heard that a brown bear had been spotted on the river below the bluff there.

The 22-year-old student at the University of Wisconsin-Stevens Point and his 20-year-old girlfriend, Emily Maasch, had been fishing with Bigley and another young man on the river only half an hour before. They were waiting near the parking lot for their friends to join them.

From that spot overlooking the river, Anderson said, "we saw someone taking pictures. So we hurried up and went over there because Emily had never seen a bear before.''

Anderson himself had a seen a few. He spent last year working for the concessionaire that runs the Russian River Campground, a place regularly visited by bears. And this summer he is rowing rafts on the Kenai River for a Cooper Landing tourism business. Bears are a common sight along that river.

What Anderson and Maasch saw from the bluff Monday night was "this 800 to 900 pound grizzly bear with, I think, it had three cubs. When we saw the bear, it was already really aggressive ... it was running down the middle of the river, shaking its head.''

Anderson had no idea what might have upset the bear. The possibilities are endless. It could have been spooked by a fisherman downstream on the Russian. It could have had a bad encounter with another bear or bears. It could simply have been worried about the cubs, which Anderson said disappeared into the brush along the near bank of the river while their mother made a fuss.

"It was in the middle of the river, running down the river,'' Anderson said. "I saw it shaking its head. It was in one of those very aggressive moods.

"The cubs were along the shoreline that we couldn't see. Then the momma veered off. The momma veered toward the trail.

"That's when I had the bad feeling,'' he said.

The Russian River angler's trail, toward which the bear had turned, is at midsummer one of the most heavily trafficked trails in Alaska.

Though it was now late at night, Anderson noted, "we'd seen some people going down (that trail) right about 20 minutes before it happened.''

Still, he wasn't particularly worried about their friends -- Bigley and Bigley's roommate, John. The roommate, Anderson and other friends of Bigley said, has been traumatized by the bear attack, and they fear anything written about the incident might put him under more stress, so they asked that his last name not be used.

John was only feet away from Bigley when the bear attacked, grabbing him by the face. No one is sure how long the mauling continued, seconds or minutes, those involved said. Everyone familiar with the situation said it was obvious to John then that Bigley would never be able to see again -- if he lived at all.

Bigley's condition Friday remained critical.

His parents are in Anchorage with him now, praying he will survive so they can take him back to his Carmel, Calif., home to recover and begin to build a new life.

Anderson said it is all hard to believe.

"John and Dan are very experienced in the outdoors,'' he said. "More (so) than 80 or 90 percent of the people who go down there" to the Russian. If someone was to have a problem with a bear, Anderson didn't expect it to be these two.

But that night he was beginning to worry what this bear might do because it was acting so strangely. Most bears seen at the Russian are afraid of people. A few act curious. Occasionally there are those that behave aggressively to try to get food or take fish.

But this one acted like it was angry.

"I really did have a feeling in my head that something wasn't right,'' Anderson said. "Five or 10 seconds later, I heard the screams.''

It was shortly after midnight, early Tuesday morning. At first, he thought someone was simply making noise to shoo away a bear. He did not know that Bigley and John were on the trail there. But he quickly realized something had gone badly wrong.

"It registered with me,'' he said, "and I said to Emily, 'those aren't screams. Those are cries for help.' ''

Together, Anderson and Maasch crept to the edge of the bluff to see if they could spot anything in the dusk that was slowly sliding into darkness.

"We were very cautious walking up there,'' he said.

When nothing was visible from the bluff, Anderson told Maasch to keep watch from there and he would descended the stairs that switchback down the side of the hill. He started down, but didn't get far.

At the first corner, he said, he ran into two cubs that he described as small enough that "I could have cradled them in my arms."

The cubs, he said, were "about 10 feet away from me and started hissing and coming toward me.''

Anderson started backing up. About the same time, he said, Emily saw the sow below the bluff and shouted a warning that the animal was coming up the steep hillside.

"We didn't have anywhere to go,'' Anderson said, "so I told her to run for the bathroom.''

The Forest Service outhouses at the Russian River are concrete structures capable of stopping a bear, but Anderson and Maasch never made it there.

"We wouldn't have made it to the bathrooms,'' Anderson said, "because the bear was only two steps behind us. (But) at that point, we saw a window of opportunity, which happened to be the Blazer.''

A Chevrolet Blazer had, fortuitously, pulled into the Grayling parking lot only 15 minutes before, Anderson said, and, even more fortuitously, its rear window was smashed out.

"I pushed (Emily) in,'' Anderson said. Then he dove in behind her.

"The bear was two feet behind me,'' he added. "It was growling and shaking its head. Then it started circling the Blazer, growling and shaking its head.

"We were freaked out, you know.''

The bear made a few turns around the Blazer, but didn't try to get inside, before heading for the woods. Anderson and Maasch started honking the car horn, thinking that would bring help. When it didn't, Anderson and Maasch hopped out and went for the nearest campsite.

"Campsite 81,'' he said.

Retired U.S. Army Ranger Col. Frank Valentine, a tourist from Georgia, answered the banging on his door to find a distraught young couple.

"They were in shock,'' Valentine said. "They were very, very anxious and scared to death.''

"I told him, 'We need your cell phone, and we need a gun,'' Anderson said. "I told him I was sure there was a bear mauling.''

A phone call was immediately made to 911 to alert authorities, after which Anderson and Valentine headed for the scene of the mauling.

"We started hearing the screams,'' Valentine said, "so I responded. I noticed it was John's voice.''

Anderson and Valentine found John cradling Bigley's badly bleeding head. It looked, Vietnam veteran Valentine said, "like (Bigley) had been blasted in the face."

John, according to Anderson, said he and Bigley had been coming up the trail from the direction of the Kenai River with Bigley's dog, Maya, when the dog went alert.

"They were talking,'' Anderson said. "They were making noise. They were laughing. But about 10 seconds before the attack, the dog got skittish and barked. They heard a rustle through the brush where the island is.''

That island is just upstream from what Russian River anglers know as the "cottonwood hole,'' one of the more popular fishing hot spots between the Graying parking lot and the Kenai. The island upstream from it is small, maybe 10 feet wide and 50 feet long. Anderson thinks the cubs might have been on the island while the sow was in the river, but added "this is the part I'm a little foggy on.''

He does know, from talking to John on the night of the attack, that the sow came out of the brush near the island, just feet from where the riverside angler trail intersects a trail that cuts off to the stairway to the Grayling parking lot.

"Maya, the dog, jetted down to the (Kenai-Russian) confluence and actually brought back two people,'' Anderson said. "John was able to duck in the bushes. The bear ran about two feet past him and grabbed Dan.''

In a matter of minutes, if not seconds, the bear's jaws had pushed the young fisherman close to death.

"I don't even want to get into details of that,'' Anderson said. "John and Dan and I are close friends. I will give props to everyone that was helping out. This was one of those things I hope I never have to deal with again.''

Anderson is now trying to figure out how to establish a recovery fund for Bigley. Efforts were to start today at the "Festival of the Forest'' in Cooper Landing.

A half-time employee at Alaska Children's Services, Bigley is fortunate to have some health insurance.

"Our policy is that half-time employees (do have insurance). ... So he's covered by our health insurance,'' said Jim Maley, executive director there. "We're all relieved about it."

Maley said Bigley was working as an activity therapist with troubled kids.

"He worked with, and hopefully will at some point again work with, kids on a one-to-one basis,'' said Maley, who added that when he met Bigley he was impressed by the young man's "positive outlook. He was extremely positive and gifted in working with children.

"Our thoughts and prayers are with him now.''

PileDriver
July 19, 2003, 11:44 PM
And before I hear a litany of "he should have had a gun" etc and all sorts of second guessing, I would note that per a conversation I had with someone in the medical field this am, that the victim besides having horrific facial injuries, has lost BOTH his eyes.




the idea here would be to shoot the damn thing way before he got close enough to maul you

Wildalaska
July 20, 2003, 01:01 AM
the idea here would be to shoot the damn thing way before he got close enough to maul you

I knew someone was gonna say it...

Keith, I think Ill leave the response to you.....

Wild:cuss: Alaska

TallPine
July 20, 2003, 10:09 AM
IMHO, no fish are worth this kind of risk.

At the very least, every group should have one person with a 45-70 on lookout at all times.

=============

Anderson had no idea what might have upset the bear.

Just like some people ... the sow went "postal"

ACP
July 20, 2003, 10:16 AM
Wildalaska

You know, I wrote a reply yesterday asking folks to remember this thread when some ... uh, less-than-informed person... suggests carrying a hi-cap 9mm or whatever to defend themselves in a bear attack. Then I deleted it. Now I see there was a need for it.

PileDriver, you need to do a search for "bear," either here or on TheFiringLine.com. Read some of Keith Rogan's first-hand accounts, hear from Alaska Fish & Game types, look at pictures of Brownies. You don't "shoot through" a charging bear like Mel Gibson or Will Smith. It's not quite that simple.

PileDriver
July 20, 2003, 02:09 PM
PileDriver, you need to do a search for "bear," either here or on TheFiringLine.com. Read some of Keith Rogan's first-hand accounts, hear from Alaska Fish & Game types, look at pictures of Brownies. You don't "shoot through" a charging bear like Mel Gibson or Will Smith. It's not quite that simple.





i've hunted bear many times and am well aware of how to kill one, having killed several. i'm also aware that you don't "shoot through" one. you also don't wait to fire on one that's charging.

Keith
July 20, 2003, 02:26 PM
Well, this actually sounds like one of those rare and unusual cases where they had plenty of warning that the bear was going to "go off". They watched it run up and down and work itself into a frenzy. My guess is that the bear simply lost track of its cubs temporarily. They were on the bank near those fisherman while she was out in the river.

With or without a gun, I'd have been up a tree before the bear reached its boiling point - assuming there are trees along the river there. Anyone know?

These cases are just horrible. This poor guy was new here, but his companions weren't. They should have been better prepared.


Keith

Cosmoline
July 20, 2003, 03:24 PM
"the idea here would be to shoot the damn thing way before he got close enough to maul you"

"you also don't wait to fire on one that's charging."

Hmm. Well if you're just shooting every bear you see because you're scared it's called "poaching" and we don't like it when people do that. We put them in prison here. Alaska is no place to be if you feel the need to shoot wildlife on sight
:D

Keith
July 20, 2003, 03:50 PM
>>>>you're just shooting every bear you see because you're scared it's called "poaching"<<<<<

Ha! I've been called every kind of idiot you can imagine for trying to explain that to people!
Most people visiting Alaska are better off with pepper spray - for two reasons - 1: They aren't good enough with a firearm (or don't have the right firearm), or 2: They simply can't grasp the fact that it isn't proper to blast away every time a bear is "too close".

Keith

Obiwan
July 20, 2003, 03:51 PM
The latest advice from those "in the know" is that playing dead is not the best idea.

Keep in mind that many of "those in the know" seem like they prefer the bear to win???

Popular opinion today is that you should stand your ground...or climb a tree....OC is a great idea...at leat for black bears in the lower 48

Running just makes you more attractive as a plaything...shooting them with most handguns..and some longguns just pisses them off!

I realize that this is all much easier said than done...and were I armed...I would tend towards shooting the charging bear.

Just like bad people....avoidance is your safest bet.

PileDriver
July 20, 2003, 04:04 PM
Hmm. Well if you're just shooting every bear you see because you're scared it's called "poaching" and we don't like it when people do that. We put them in prison here. Alaska is no place to be if you feel the need to shoot wildlife on sight









is that what i said?? i said a CHARGING bear

Keith
July 20, 2003, 04:55 PM
Grizzlies "charge" quite frequently. This is called a "false charge" and is part of the threat display you'll see quite often. The problem is that if you then shoot, the "false charge" is likely to turn into a real charge that kills you. Or, almost as bad - leaves a wounded grizzly behind that will end up ACTUALLY threatening someones life long after you are gone.

You might be good enough to hit a target the size of a grapefruit (a bears brain), moving and bouncing towards you at 35 mph, but most people aren't. Wounding the bear is very likely to set off a real mauling, either at that moment or long afterwards...
In some places (like Kodiak and the Alaska Peninsula) you might encounter a dozen grizzlies a day on a fishing trip. It's just unthinkable that anyone would shoot every bear that made a threat display. You'd end up in jail and rightfully so.

You can actually tell a threat display from a real charge, though in this case (totally unarmed, in the dark) knowing how wouldn't have been much help. Bears making a threat display have their ears up, teeth bared, and are generally making a lot of noise - teeth clicking, grunting, etc. Bears that are actually attacking make no noise, they just lay the ears down and come for you. The barking dog isn't the one that bites you...
And trust me, the case above is quite rare in that someone actually SAW the bear before the attack. 90% of the time the bear bounds out of the brush just feet away and nails you.

You have to remember that some of us have to live here. And every year we are left with wounded, gimpy, starving, angry bears to deal with after the tourists leave. And 99.% of the time, that bear didn't have to be shot.
Fish or hike with a partner, one with a heavy rifle or shotgun (slugs) and one with pepper spray. If a bear gets too close, zap him with pepper spray while the other guy covers him with the firearm. Resume fishing.

Keith

Keith
July 20, 2003, 04:59 PM
Oh, as for "playing dead" - grizzlies (almost) always attack for territorial reasons or to remove a threat to cubs. Playing dead is the right thing to do if it gets you down. Resistance is suicide because you are just proving that you are still a threat.

Black bears (almost) always attack for food. Playing dead is suicide.

Wildalaska
July 21, 2003, 12:11 AM
Interesting observation Keith, heres Another Bear Incident (http://pegasus.lunarpages.com/~alaska2/penguinpeak.htm)

jade
July 21, 2003, 02:03 AM
Oh, as for "playing dead" - grizzlies (almost) always attack for territorial reasons or to remove a threat to cubs. Playing dead is the right thing to do if it gets you down. Resistance is suicide because you are just proving that you are still a threat.
Black bears (almost) always attack for food. Playing dead is suicide.

i've been told this as well.


i got the quote below from the Forest Service's website for my particular area.

"FIGHT BACK If a black bear attacks you. Black bears have been driven away when people have fought back with rocks, sticks, binoculars and even their bare hands."

http://www.fs.fed.us/r2/psicc/bears.shtml

it's at the very bottom of the page.

jade

PileDriver
July 21, 2003, 02:37 AM
It's just unthinkable that anyone would shoot every bear that made a threat display. You'd end up in jail and rightfully so.






again, i didn't say shoot every bear. it's pretty obvious that the bear in question should have been shot.





You might be good enough to hit a target the size of a grapefruit (a bears brain), moving and bouncing towards you at 35 mph, but most people aren't. Wounding the bear is very likely to set off a real mauling, either at that moment or long afterwards...






assuming one would stop firing after only one shot. i wouldn't






90% of the time the bear bounds out of the brush just feet away and nails you.





And 99.% of the time, that bear didn't have to be shot.




i'm real skeptical of posts that quote stats with nothing to back them up.





If a bear gets too close, zap him with pepper spray




lol...that won't piss him off at all eh?

Keith
July 21, 2003, 02:37 AM
Wild,

Have you ever noticed how few Alaskan bear attacks make it into the national press? That guy in Colorado got just a little nip on the head and it was like you'd never hear the end of it... People here get ripped apart or killed and there's not a line in the national press.

Is it that Alaskan bear maulings aren't considered news - to be expected?

Keith

Keith
July 21, 2003, 02:44 AM
Pile,

I can only tell you that every year we have knuckleheads shooting up the local bears and leaving them for us to deal with. Wounded bears are no fun when you have kids and a life to live after the knucklehead in question goes back to the suburbs in the lower 48 with his hairy-chested bear tale.

When we do get an actual mauling (and the animal is found and killed) it invariably has bullet wounds in it from one of these knuckleheads. Healthy bears rarely maul people. Shot up bears do frequently. Please don't shoot the bears unless you have a good reason to do so.


Keith

PileDriver
July 21, 2003, 03:10 AM
i wouldn't shoot a bear that didn't give me a reason. i'm not talking about one making a false charge from 40 yards out either.

nor would i wait until it was close enough to use pepper spray.

anyone who just shoots a bear and leaves it to wander should be in jail. this whole post was generated by a story about a bear that needed to be shot. my posts were reflective of that angle, not of hypothetical situations

Wildalaska
July 21, 2003, 03:31 AM
Is it that Alaskan bear maulings aren't considered news - to be expected?

I think its just ignorance of life outside their comfort zones.....plus it ruins the Bambi image of wildlife...when it happens in Colo they can pretend its an anomaly...the exception rather than the rule...

Cosmoline
July 21, 2003, 04:12 AM
The black bear scare me a lot more than the potential brownies. Any black bear that will peak into your tent or poke around your stuff has already decided that humans aren't a threat. These animals can smell humans a mile off. A lot of the brownies people encounter are either two or three year old goobers who are just figuring out what's what or sows--either of these can be avoided in most cases. Attacks by brownie boars are very rare and usually happen when people run into fresh kills. When they do attack with the intent to kill, nothing on this green earth will save you. An 800 lb. boar can slam a grown man down and snap his back--mauling isn't even necessary.

This is one reason I usually carry a .357 with 200 grain solids. At home 99% of the time, problems are going to be with black bears trying to get at the dog food. Likewise, on the trail all of my point-blank encounters have been with black bears looking for 7-11 discards. The only brown bears I've seen have been high tailing it at a distance. I know things are different on Kodiak, but on the other hand attacks by brownies are extremely rare even there.

HBK
July 21, 2003, 06:46 AM
I HIGHLY recommend the books by Gary Sheldon, Bear Attacks and the Truth About Bear Attacks. It debunks a lot of the myths about bear attacks. The guy is a class act too, responded to an e-mail message I sent him even. Knows his stuff.

TallPine
July 21, 2003, 12:03 PM
Oh, as for "playing dead" - grizzlies (almost) always attack for territorial reasons or to remove a threat to cubs. Playing dead is the right thing to do if it gets you down. Resistance is suicide because you are just proving that you are still a threat.

After a few seconds, you won't be "playing" dead anyway .... :p

Keith
July 21, 2003, 12:10 PM
Well, all of the sources say that attacks in North America are about half and half - half black bear and half brown(grizzly). But then you have to consider that browns are only about 1/100th as prevalent as blacks... In other words, an individual brown bear is about 100 times more likely to attack a human than a black bear.

And there is something else I've never quite been able to understand. If you look at black bear attacks, there seems to be a geographic component. Many areas with high population densities see few or no black bear attacks. Look at SE Alaska or the lower 48 - black bear attacks are extremely rare or even completely unknown in some areas.
Then look at mainland Alaska and NW Canada and you'll see that attacks are quite common. I don't understand that.
A friend of mine grew up down on PoW Island chasing black bears out of the garden with a stick. She thought no more of black bears than most people think of raccoons. She moved up to Willow (outside Anchorage) and quickly learned that if you advance on a black bear with a stick around there, you may get a surprise. Those bears are a lot more aggressive than the ones she grew up with in SE Alaska. She now keeps a 20 gauge with skeet loads by the door and "dusts" any bear nosing around the place - no more chasing them off with a stick.



Keith

PileDriver
July 21, 2003, 12:30 PM
She now keeps a 20 gauge with skeet loads by the door and "dusts" any bear nosing around the place - no more chasing them off with a stick.








I can only tell you that every year we have knuckleheads shooting up the local bears and leaving them for us to deal with. Wounded bears are no fun when you have kids and a life to live after the knucklehead in question goes back to the suburbs in the lower 48 with his hairy-chested bear tale.







is this one of the knuckleheads you were referring to?

Keith
July 21, 2003, 12:49 PM
Skeet loads don't even penetrate through a bears skin. They just sting like hell at any range beyond 15 yards or so and any pellets are scratched out after a few days. The idea is to shoot them in the butt so they associate peoples property with a painful experience. Fish & Game use rubber/plastic bullets and pepper sprays for the same purpose.

You seem rather unfamiliar with firearms, but if you peruse the boards you'll quickly pick up the difference between shotguns and rifles, skeet loads and bullets, etc. It may seem complicated at first, but different firearms and loads can be used for different purposes.

Welcome to the world of firearms!

Keith

spacemanspiff
July 21, 2003, 01:48 PM
pssshaaaww! the ONLY way to protect yourself from a bear is to have a walther p22 in each hand john woo style and aim for the eyes. that .22lr will bounce around the inside of his skull and rip that brain to shreds.
me, i got my p-22 slides chromed, and i put a surefire and laser on each rail, with a red-dot scope mounted on top. and if my arms are really tired i have a detachable shoulder stock. they are attached with lanyards to my belt in case i have to drop them quickly to put my keys in between my fingers so i can scratch the bear if it gets too close, and in the worst case scenario, i have a super=soaker filled with a mixture of tabasco/cayenne pepper.


theres a LOT of armchair quarterbacking going on here. the advice that really matters comes from those that have actually had face-to-face experiences with bears. keith, cosmoline, wildalaska, have any of you had to discharge your weapon against a bear? yet the three of you put together have probably had more bear encounters than the rest of us THRers.

PileDriver
July 21, 2003, 04:20 PM
You seem rather unfamiliar with firearms, but if you peruse the boards you'll quickly pick up the difference between shotguns and rifles, skeet loads and bullets, etc. It may seem complicated at first, but different firearms and loads can be used for different purposes.






LOL now that is funny!

Keith
July 21, 2003, 05:09 PM
It wasn't meant to be funny. You really can learn a lot about firearms and I encourage you to do so.

Keith

Cosmoline
July 21, 2003, 05:15 PM
Thankfully I've never had to shoot, but the close encounters I have had with "little" blackies in the woods have left me wondering if I would have much chance to. They move extremely fast even in thick brush, and from a backpack scabbard I've only been able to get a rifle out and aimed by the time they've passed me and on their way. There's no easy answer. I'm currently using a weird-looking system where I keep my rifle across my front with the barrel down and a quick-release on the strap. I haven't had any close encounters this year so I don't know how it will work in practice.

On my lot in Willow I've been relying more on the noise of my chainsaw and a .357. Not much chance of carrying a rifle when you're felling timber and building a cabin! If push came to shove, I might be able to drop a tree on the bear or throw a log at it LOL

Bottom line--if what you use isn't on you and ready, there's little chance you'd be able to use it in an actual attack. So be very comfortable with what you carry. That's pretty much the general rule for carrying firearms, though, I suppose.

TallPine
July 21, 2003, 06:10 PM
On my lot in Willow I've been relying more on the noise of my chainsaw and a .357. Not much chance of carrying a rifle when you're felling timber and building a cabin! If push came to shove, I might be able to drop a tree on the bear or throw a log at it LOL

I always thought a running chainsaw, especially one with a 30" bar like mine, would make a fearsome weapon against man or beast in close quarters combat.

Just hope you don't run out of gas at the critical moment .... :)

PileDriver
July 21, 2003, 08:32 PM
It wasn't meant to be funny. You really can learn a lot about firearms and I encourage you to do so.






what's funny is you assume you know the extent of my gun knowledge. you're the one who referred to "knuckleheads" shooting bears.

the thread topic is what i was responding to. during which, i ask you for documentation on your stats that you posted. you never responded except to say i didn't know much about firearms.

in my opinion, any knucklehead who shoots a bear in the ??? is lucky to be alive.

i wonder what happens to the next unfortunate who crosses paths with this anally rectified bear?

judging a total stranger's qualifications when dodging questions about the facts you espouse doesn't lead to intelligent conversation

spacemanspiff
July 21, 2003, 08:52 PM
piledriver, its obvious the posters in this thread have gone to great lengths to be polite and courteous in answer to your criticism and armchair quarterbacking on behalf of the fisher who was mauled.

heres a sample of some of your words throughout this thread that would lead some to believe that you have had no experience with a firearm, nor with large predators:

the idea here would be to shoot the damn thing way before he got close enough to maul you.
you also don't wait to fire on one that's charging.
it's pretty obvious that the bear in question should have been shot.
i wouldn't shoot a bear that didn't give me a reason. i'm not talking about one making a false charge from 40 yards out either.
nor would i wait until it was close enough to use pepper spray.


this is NOT a urinating contest. it is very arrogant for a person to pipe in with 'shoulda, coulda, woulda's'. the fact of the matter is that a fisher was caught off guard. please dont turn this into a "if it happened to ME i would have killed that bear before the bear knew i was even there", that seems to be the direction you are trying to take this thread.

HBK
July 21, 2003, 08:57 PM
All you Alaskans, have you ever had any experience with predatory black bears? I read that the black bears in British Columbia are more likely to hunt humans for food. Do you know if this is true? Also, I've read that Brown Bears will associate the sound of a rifle shot with food. For example, you ar hunting, you kill something, the bear hears the shot and comes to claim the kill. Can y'all verify any of this behavior?

PileDriver
July 21, 2003, 08:59 PM
it's just as arrogant to assume someone knows my qualifications. i've done many stints at front site as an instructor as well as a student, have hunted all over the world for all kinds of game. i was merely posting my opinion on how i would have and have handled a situation such as this.

if that's a problem up there in alaska so be it

Keith
July 21, 2003, 09:22 PM
>>>>in my opinion, any knucklehead who shoots a bear in the ??? is lucky to be alive<<<<

Negative reinforcement - shooting a bear in the ??? with light shot or rubber bullets - is the standard tactic employed by biologists and game managers to keep bears away from human habitations. The bear simply learns to associate humans with bad juju and stays away. That's good for the bear and even better for the people who have to live near the bear. My friend uses the same tactic when she finds bears in her yard, and it's a better method than her former practice of chasing them off with a stick. What else is she going to do; call 911? Or kill every bear that enters her property?

You could probably teach me a few things about combat shooting, and maybe if you'd get off your high horse you could learn a few things about the subject being dealt with in this thread. Going to gunsite or paying someone to guide you to game animals doesn't give you any insight into animal behavior or management. Your 9mm wouldn't be worth much out on the Ayakulik, but your opinions on bears would be worth even less...

Keith

Browns Fan
July 21, 2003, 10:04 PM
Let's see now, how can I say this delicately? I think some of you guys have a bad case of bunnyhuggeritis. Any animal, no matter how cute and cuddly they look on the Animal Planet or Jungle Book, you have to understand that some of them look at us as though we were a Scooby snack. They must be dealt with accordingly.


How's that for delicate handling of this issue? (flame suit on)

Browns Fan
July 21, 2003, 10:09 PM
Let's see now, how can I say this delicately? I think some of you guys have a bad case of bunnyhuggeritis. Any animal, no matter how cute and cuddly they look on the Animal Planet or Jungle Book, you have to understand that some of them look at us as though we were a Scooby snack. They must be dealt with accordingly.


How's that for delicate handling of this issue? (flame suit on)

Cosmoline
July 21, 2003, 10:23 PM
Forget the chainsaw! I picked up one of these Gränsfors Bruks felling axes, mostly for supplemental work on the trees. The darn thing gives the Husky a run for its money! They make battle axes, and if they're anything like the felling axe I'd hate to have a run-in with one! I'll prob. post over on the alternative combat section with this.

Browns fan: Yes, big predators do size people up and make choices about whether are food or a threat. So what? I don't know what you mean by your post but if you are suggesting that this is a reason to exterminate them, I have to disagree. They were here first, and if you want to see what sort of evil grows without them, look no further than states where the great predators have been all but eliminated. **********, for example. Better yet, look at the UK! They killed off all their big predators, and now look at them! Spineless sheeple. It sounds odd, but predators are good role models for people. And where ever you find big predators, you WON'T find lilly-livered anal-retentive pigdogs and their manicured lawns and zoning and rules about how high your grass has to be. But I digress.

Simply put, the best way to create a nation of PETA members is to destroy the wildlife.

PileDriver
July 21, 2003, 11:45 PM
You could probably teach me a few things about combat shooting, and maybe if you'd get off your high horse you could learn a few things about the subject being dealt with in this thread. Going to gunsite or paying someone to guide you to game animals doesn't give you any insight into animal behavior or management. Your 9mm wouldn't be worth much out on the Ayakulik, but your opinions on bears would be worth even less...







ahh...more assumptions. i have plenty of insight into animal behavior. when are you going to answer me about your percentages you mentioned as an expert?? or are you the typical expert who throws out numbers and percentages and gets irritated when questioned as to their validity?


enlighten us knuckleheads

Wildalaska
July 22, 2003, 01:13 AM
enlighten us knuckleheads

My experience with bears has been to see their back ends hauling ??? away (or in a different direction) from me thank god! On two of those occasions I had a 338 rifle, that in and of itself was barely enough to ensure that I would only have sphincter pucker instead of sphincter leak! On the third occasion I had a wolf hybrid on a leash, a 32, and enough smarts to back right down the hill and away from a confrontation.

But I can assure you that I have the opportunity to talk to EXPERIENCED Alaskans every day, and I am sure they would look at some of your comments askance.

I suggest you take what Keith says to you very seriously as I would consider him extremely knowledgable about bear behavior and attacks. Extremely.

As for me I fluctuate every day as to my bear gun, there are so many variables. At the minimum, I have a high capacity 9mm with Hiterburger penetrators...not for any hopes that I can kill a griz, but more for black bear protection and as a noisemaker. Mostly I carry a 44 mag with the front sight filed off...ya wanna know why??

WildlistentokeithAlaska

Keith
July 22, 2003, 11:55 AM
I'm unaware of using any percentages except numbers like "99%" as a rhetorical device meaning "vast majority of the time". Nobody collects data on bear maulings and a person would be a fool to rely on data to protect themselves in any case.
I can only tell you that the "vast majority of the time", unless you have a very large rifle and are very good with it, you should probably withhold fire on a brown bear you've encountered. In almost every case they head the other direction, or make a little display before backing down. If you do shoot, you'd better be damned sure you kill it dead because if you don't, you have probably just set yourself (or someone else) up to be mauled.

We don't know what set up the mauling above, but as the animal was running up and down the river enraged and upset, it was quite possibly shot and wounded by some nimrod shortly before it destroyed this young mans life.

We'll probably never know because the state of Alaska is not going to track the animal down and kill it, nor even attempt to do so. And this is food for thought; it's completely up to the people out in these remote areas to act responsibly and govern their own actions. All too often some nimrod shoots up a bear and it's up to the next person that encounters it to pay the price.

Keith

Browns Fan
July 22, 2003, 08:18 PM
Cosmoline,
You make some excellent points, sir, that gave me food for thought. I stand corrected and rebuked.

emily maasch
May 4, 2008, 10:56 PM
:eek:I am the girlfriend involved in this story and just so you know a gun wouldn't have helped. The total thing happed extremely fast - and Dan Bigley's dog Maya actually was what spooked the bears in the first place--but dogs are fast & it missed the dog grabbing dan. People need to know that it isn't true that you are safer in the woods with a dog-- it's actually makes things worse--the smartest thing I saw was two swiss guys tooting a constant whistle every 30 sec.

TheGoodLife
May 4, 2008, 11:15 PM
Hi Emily.

Glad you could post and share your experience. Sounds like a pretty frightening situation, to say the least.

Can you update us on everyone's health and condition, even though some years have passed?

And, are you sure that 'dogs' always make things worse?

Thanks.

Treo
May 4, 2008, 11:44 PM
I'd be interested in an update as well, also curious did you just happen to google Mr. Bigley's name and end up here?

XD-40 Shooter
May 5, 2008, 12:12 AM
12 gauge, 3" magnum slugs for the first 3 rounds, 00 buckshot for the last 3. I figure if you don't take the the bear down and it gets to you, a shotgun blast to the face would certainly blind the bear. But in all likelihood, if a big brownie is charging you, you're hosed.

230RN
May 5, 2008, 01:27 AM
Hi Emily. My thoughts are for things to get better than they've been so far for you and Dan.

Sorry you had to tune in on all the picayune bickering. Ninety-nine percent of the time it doesn't happen on The High Road.

Can you keep us posted on Dan's condition? One report was that he'd lost both his eyes, and another post said only one.

-Terry

ExSoldier
May 5, 2008, 01:42 AM
My sole bear encounter happened with a Grizzly way north of the Rainer Training area on Fort Lewis back in the early 1980s. My point guy on a patrol during one of my first Field Training Exercises was about maybe 70 meters in front of the main body. We heard him scream and then he came blasting thru our position screaming F*** it! F*** it! He had not his weapon or helmet or anything. He disappeared into the brush right behind us as we all turned to watch him stunned.

A moment later we realized what made him act in such a way. Old bear GRIZ was up on his hind legs mighty PO'ed about something.

So my whole patrol opened up! Too bad they were all firing BLANK AMMO. Duh. I screamed that to them as the critter advanced on us and I remembered what my best buddy had advised when he was at the 2nd Ranger Bn next door to our outfit. So I fished out a CS Tear Gas Grenade, pulled the pin and lobbed it gently so that it came to rest under him. It popped and that bear ATE that gas. He ran away pawing and rubbing his snout. Yowling. I felt kinda sorry for it and tried to tell him NOT to rub his snout 'cuz .... like it makes the pain about 1000% worse, almost instantly. He ignored me and the yowls intensified as he crashed thru the dense bush.

We policed up our guy's gear and him, too. I called in a chopper to extract us in case he recovered and decided to come looking for a soldier type meal with our MRE's for desert. Too bad civilians can't get hold of CS grenades, it worked great for me. However I do understand that those HUGE cans of "Bear Mace" work very well, too. But it'd be like carrying a fire extinguisher while camping. Not a lot of fun there.

But I'd keep on in an RV, for sure.

TX1911fan
May 5, 2008, 01:29 PM
I don't want to insert myself into this whole thing you guys have with Piledriver, but I think it's the Alaska boys who are on the high horse. I don't remember anywhere where Piledriver mentioned a high cap 9mm or that he thought all bears should be shot on sight. He said that if a bear is charging, he thinks you should shoot it. Whether that's the right choice or not, it is his opinion. Seems like you guys jumped on him a little too eagerly. I happen to have the same opinion. Were I to be in Alaska, I would (1) carry at least one firearm, and (2) shoot at a bear charging me. I don't care if it is a false charge or not. I don't want to sit around and try to figure out if a 600 pound wild animal is just messing with me. I don't want to die with ammo left. True, I may die anyway, but I sure hope I'd get a few shots off first. If not, then it doesn't matter one way or the other. I'm not going to give two legged predators the benefit of the doubt, and I don't think I'll do it for the four legged kind either. That probably makes me a knucklehead, so it's a good thing I don't make it up to Alaska very often.

Biker
May 5, 2008, 02:28 PM
I don't know the difference between a false charge and a real charge. Consequently, I'm pulling the trigger the same as I would if a man pulled a gun on me. How the hell am I to know whether or not it's a bluff?

Biker

Tokugawa
May 5, 2008, 04:20 PM
I would vote for the pepper spray. And a shotgun for backup. Forest Service reports indicate a very high rate of effectiveness for the spray. With a gun, a CNS shot, under duress, in a very short time span???? It is hard to exaggerate the amazing speed and vitality of a Grizzly bear.
Emily's dog comment was reflected in Washington State recently, when a mountain biker with dogs was mauled in a county park. Reports indicated the dogs upset the black bear.

cassandrasdaddy
May 5, 2008, 04:56 PM
how does someone report a failure of the spray?

Wheeler44
May 5, 2008, 05:15 PM
Dogs in the bush, love 'em, hate 'em. They are handy critters in the bush, good for finding trails and game. They can be a problem when they infuriate a large animal and then run back and hide between your legs.

As with every thing else it seems training is VERY important.

TX1911fan
May 5, 2008, 06:55 PM
how does someone report a failure of the spray?

Probably my favorite post of the day. Reminds me of the joke: How do you identify grizzly bear scat? It's the one that smells like pepper and has all the bear bells in it.

McCall911
May 5, 2008, 07:27 PM
My prayers are certainly with this young man and his family. Such a profound tragedy.

So no trips to Alaska for me and my family, thank you very much. Especially when I ponder the serious side of this very succinct post:

how does someone report a failure of the spray?


No, I think I'll spend my vacation money elsewhere.

physics
May 6, 2008, 02:02 AM
This is interesting, but the OP doesn't explain the situation in very much detail, as it would apply to a biologist studying the bear behavior. Was Bigley making a lot of noise prior to the attack? Did he have fish with him? Was there a carcass of a kill nearby? Was the sow injured prior to the attack? How did Bigley react to the bears presence, ie: did he run away? These are all important factors to consider.

Brown bears do not generally just attack out of the blue. Nor do they generally prey on humans. There are many variables to take into account, including past relationship of the bear with humans. Glacier National Park had a huge problem with Grizzlies eating trash, and thus encountering humans. Anyone read "Night of the Grizzlies"? For the most part, Grizzly attacks happen because you surprised the bear, or stumbled upon a kill, came between a sow and her cubs, etc... Anytime that mother grizzly feels threatened... she's gonna kick your butt.

Of course, I was not there, so I don't know the real situation.

A good book on this subject is "Bear Attacks Their Causes and Avoidance" from Stephen Herrero.

Also, just on a side note, if you DO end up having to shoot a charging brown bear... don't shoot it in the head, the angle of the forehead will just deflect the bullet. You shoot a charging bear in the chest, or so I've read. I have never shot a bear, nor would I like to.

My point here is that there may be more to the story, because brown bears don't usually attack without some kind of provocation.

Cosmoline
May 6, 2008, 03:18 AM
Guys, this thread is FIVE YEARS OLD. Half the people you're arguing with aren't even on this forum anymore.

because brown bears don't usually attack without some kind of provocation.

Who knows. The bear maybe. As much as folks would like to have a simple set of rules that can make them safe in the wild woods, there just aren't any guarantees. The business of bells and such is as much about making people feel safe as anything else. You just have to accept that you can't control nature and realize the risk is always there. I'm terribly sorry for the tragic loss here. Sometimes there's nothing you can do because it happens incredibly fast. I know people who always carry, and some who never do. Personally I'd rather have at least some hope. But I know of attacks that came from nowhere and were over so fast even armed hunters never had a chance to fire. Nobody is to blame for this, it's just nature.

There's no need to cancel trips to Alaska or get overly paranoid. The typical rural highway is many times more dangerous than the woods here.

the angle of the forehead will just deflect the bullet.

Oy not this again. It just keeps coming back up. This is an old, old myth with no truth to it. It comes from people who shoot at the mass of muscle on top of a brown bear's head to no avail and assume their bullet was "deflected." In reality they simply shot too high. The bear's brain is underneath an enormous pile of jaw muscles, not in the mound itself.

springmom
May 6, 2008, 03:23 AM
Yeah, but, Cosmo....it got brought up again by a poster who says she's one of the principals in the OP. Thread necromancy is a black art indeed, and is a no-no here, but she may not have known that.

Springmom

McCall911
May 6, 2008, 04:37 AM
Guys, this thread is FIVE YEARS OLD.

Well...

That's just a technicality!

:o

Maybe I should go back to lurking instead...

Powderman
May 6, 2008, 05:39 AM
Here's a question for those with experience...

I am the proud owner of a new 4" SW 500. With proper loads (such as 440 grain Cor-Bon) how would this do for emergency bear medicine?

TX1911fan
May 6, 2008, 10:06 AM
Cosmo, thanks for pointing that out. I guess I should make it a habit to check the dates. If I could have found the embarassed smilie I would have used it.

Cosmoline
May 6, 2008, 01:20 PM
Yeah, but, Cosmo....it got brought up again by a poster who says she's one of the principals in the OP. Thread necromancy is a black art indeed, and is a no-no here, but she may not have known that.

I just noticed that. Hope she sticks around.

emily maasch
May 18, 2008, 03:05 AM
I hear Dan is doing really great—he just had a baby and is still with the same girl from before the event—he is also functioning normally through brail--which didn't surprise me b/c through the entire long experience he was the strongest one— he was fading in and out down by the bluff for nearly 2 hours before a helicopter arrived from Anchorage—When he was in the helicopter he woke up and told a nurse he was allergic to penicillin. It was truly a blessing he was able to endure this sort of desire for survival ---We were located in Cooper Landing on the Russian River Campground—1/2 way down the spit on sterling hwy. I was working for Alaska recreational management at that same time on that same campground. The whole summer was off for Alaska prime fishing season ---the fish were not coming in thick and the bears started to move further down the mountains. Ironicly we were waiting at the top of the bluff and our friends were coming toward us ----but we both had been directly involved---The first sighing of the bear on our end was it and the cubs crossing the river—We gathered by a group as people were taking pictures—20 mins later the screaming started and you could say me and my ex both knew what was going on----We for some reason –which I still wonder-- ran directly toward the screaming—we didn’t get far and we had come right to the cubs—my ex was a bit ahead of me---On the other end—Dan and I wont say the other guys name but another---were walking on the trail and suddenly they looked up and across the path was the bear and on the opp. Side of path was her cubs---the dog quickly skid and the bear at random grabbed Dan and pinned him with his hind legs –The other boy rolled and hid in a bush–using his front paws to gouge the eyes----moments after ---When we were chased by the mother it was because she finish mauling Dan and then went up the stairs where her cubs had gone---the image I remember was a puffed up bloody bear charging at us right next to her babies---that’s when we ran --both with full boot waiters on ----

Cosmoline
May 18, 2008, 03:28 AM
Thanks for sharing those details. It's a terrible tragedy, and you're absolutely correct about the dogs.

Just recently a friend of mine in Willow nearly had a sow with a brace of two year olds on her because she ran out to grab the neighbor's stray dog only to find the three bears hot on the dog's tail. She went back to the cabin to get a shotgun I had given her last year, but by the time she came back out the dog and the bears were long gone. If she had managed to grab that dog she would have been in terrible danger.

MT GUNNY
May 18, 2008, 01:08 PM
Powderman

That the best bit of common sence
Ive heard all Thread!!

Baba Louie
May 18, 2008, 01:54 PM
I am the proud owner of a new 4" SW 500. With proper loads (such as 440 grain Cor-Bon) how would this do for emergency bear medicine?
I think that would depend on how fast can you draw it and accurately place a round or two at a P.O.'d & charging (did I say P.O.'d?) momma bear coming right at you at 30 mph? (If my math is right, that means she's covering about 44 ft per second headed your way...:eek:)

Sistema1927
May 18, 2008, 06:04 PM
I knew that this was an old thread when I saw a comment by Wildwhereheckhashebeenalaska.

Cosmoline
May 18, 2008, 11:04 PM
Isawhimattherangetheotherweekend. I think he hangs out over on TFL these days.

rbernie
May 18, 2008, 11:13 PM
Isawhimattherangetheotherweekend. I think he hangs out over on TFL these days.
He pissed off somebody over here a couple/three years ago and moved camp for good.

SDC
May 19, 2008, 09:12 AM
Just as a matter of interest, there was a grizzly attack in Bella Coola, British Columbia, a couple of days ago; the "attackee" ended up trying to play dead, and after the grizzly pulled some branches over him (the bear was going to come back for a snack later), he had to drive 25 km to get to a hospital. See http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080516.wgrizzly17/BNStory/National/home

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