OK-What caliber for an African Lion?


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News Shooter
November 1, 2007, 01:06 PM
If an African lion is roaming the mountains of southeastern West Virginia, Angus Peyton wants it captured, not killed.

Peyton is offering a $3,000 award for the safe and humane capture of the lion.

He also wants the animal to be placed in refuge.

The Charleston broker says he fears someone may try to shoot the lion.

Bow hunter Jim Shortridge swears he saw a male African lion weighing between 250 and 300 pounds at the foot of Cold Knob Mountain earlier this month.

Rainelle-based Tiger Mountain Refuge and Greenbrier County animal control officer Robert McClung have placed motion-sensitive video cameras in that area in hopes of getting an image of the lion.

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Fumbler
November 1, 2007, 01:35 PM
The new 17 Fireball aught to lay him out in one shot.

:rolleyes:

BlackBearME
November 1, 2007, 01:36 PM
$3,000 for the safe capture? Who the heck is going to try to capture it for $3,000? I don't know about you all, but I don't have a tranq gun in my back pocket (much to my dismay).

More importantly, why in the heck is there an African Lion roaming WV?

30 cal slob
November 1, 2007, 01:36 PM
awww, man, i was about to dust off my .375 H&H mag.

lure it with a can of tunafish and bop it over the head with a bowling pin.

Eyesac
November 1, 2007, 01:39 PM
lure it with a can of tunafish and bop it over the head with a bowling pin.

haha!
New thread: What bowling pins for lions?

MiddleAgedKen
November 1, 2007, 01:42 PM
.223 from a suppressed 11" AR, natch. ;)

PointOneSeven
November 1, 2007, 01:45 PM
66514

230RN
November 1, 2007, 01:46 PM
All right, who's the poster who always touts the 40 W phased plasma rifle?

Where are you when we need you?

db_tanker
November 1, 2007, 01:49 PM
hmm...I would say something in the 375 and up range....


most would prefer a proper double to get a good reliable one-two punch...mebbe a 470 NE or perhaps a good 416 Rigby...Hell, I would like to try out my 416 Taylor. :) I would need to pick up some Woodliegh's to load up.


I would think it would be interesting to find out what the mountan lions are doing around the other lion...

oregonhunter
November 1, 2007, 01:52 PM
470 NE double.

romma
November 1, 2007, 01:53 PM
This is a funny thread. Just recently we watched a movie about a tiger running around WV eating people... Truth is stranger than fiction.

tnieto2004
November 1, 2007, 01:55 PM
Wow this sounds exciting .. Wish I could hunt for lions!

Koos Custodiet
November 1, 2007, 01:55 PM
Lions are remarkably thin-skinned.

OK, let's face it, if it's coming at me I'd prefer the RPG and not a 22 revolver, but a levergun in 45-70 or even 30-30 will do. A helluva lot of lions have been shot with 303 British, for example.

A lion in Virginia? Hells man, it escaped from a circus, dress up as a clown and shout "sit" at it [1].

Koos

[1] Better yet, get Hillary to dress up as a clown...

Kruzr
November 1, 2007, 02:07 PM
As mentioned, they are thin skinned............they get really ticked when you shoot them.
http://www.break.com/index/huntlion.html

Don't miss. :)

Kaeto
November 1, 2007, 02:13 PM
I'd choose a 10 cm. Hellbore.

Hoppy590
November 1, 2007, 02:21 PM
I say we take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

General Geoff
November 1, 2007, 02:28 PM
.338 Lapua Magnum. :)

Koos Custodiet
November 1, 2007, 02:31 PM
>Don't miss.

Dumb fsking idjits.

Yea, let's face it, your phased plasma wossname in the whatever range is also pretty useless if you miss.

Those big cats are quick, and (in Africa) they have an attitude. As I said that one you guys have probably escaped from somewhere and probably doesn't deserve having lead thrown at it.

Im283
November 1, 2007, 02:32 PM
What bowling pins for lions?

Why the Headpin of course :)

Kaeto
November 1, 2007, 02:37 PM
With the Hellbore you only have to have the shot get within 20 feet of the target. then the target is roasted from the heat.

Harley Quinn
November 1, 2007, 02:39 PM
Serious my 458 Win mag...In a pinch and desperate, the one I am carrying 357 Sig. or the 400 Corbon.

If going out to do it with time on my hands and picking up what I needed.

458 Win mag in my Enfield rifle, 44 mag Super Blackhawk, in holster at my right side, 400 Corbon, my Glock 21, under my left arm in holster, for the final act if all else fails (the lion not me). These I own and have at my disposal, ready, willing and able.

:)

Geronimo45
November 1, 2007, 02:42 PM
Is this supposed to be West Virginia's answer to the NW's bigfoot?

Sounds kinda skinny for a lion.

JamisJockey
November 1, 2007, 02:55 PM
Is this supposed to be West Virginia's answer to the NW's bigfoot?

Sounds kinda skinny for a lion.

Nah, WV women resemble bigfoot all on thier own.

My vote is escaped pet, possibly emaciated from from not being much of a hunter. Potentially juvenille, too.
The person who saw it might just suck at guesstimating the weight of an animal, too.
Male lions can reach 600lbs.
Oh, and I'd use the same caliber A) I already have, B) Alaskan guides use for bear protection......12ga slugs.

XD-40 Shooter
November 1, 2007, 02:56 PM
308 winchester, milde recoil, more than enough power.:D

Crunker1337
November 1, 2007, 03:17 PM
.406 Chey-Tac from long distance.

News Shooter
November 1, 2007, 03:21 PM
Man, that video is scary. I'm glad I gave up big game hunting

Harley Quinn
November 1, 2007, 04:13 PM
That video was interesting for sure. Talk about failure to fire (operate) he was lucky for sure.
Did one of the hunters get shot by another in that fiasco:confused:

redactor
November 1, 2007, 05:02 PM
375 Holland and Holland Magnum.

Harley Quinn
November 1, 2007, 05:12 PM
Hindsight is 20-20 I have read, the situation where the group and the man was attacked he would have been better off with a shotgun and waited before he used up all his ammo.

At about 5 feet, full load of shot into the lion would have been a good thing.
The guy was out of his league for sure. No martial arts training can be seen, he is very lucky. I wish there was some follow up story to that video.

Was it a staged thing or was it real? Looks like something Hollywood could come up with.

BlackBearME
November 1, 2007, 05:37 PM
I think a .45-70 or .458 Socom would be OK. Overkill, but would work fine.

For what I have on hand? .72 Brenneke.

If I were in that party on the video, it definitely woulda been a 3" Brenneke on top in the mag, followed by a coupla 3' 00 Buck.

RyanM
November 1, 2007, 05:41 PM
250 to 300 pounds? That's pretty small. They're usually 330 to 500.

Anyway, "thin-skinned" or not, you want a high-powered rifle for a lion.

http://www.african-hunter.com/Rifle_Choice_4_Dangerous_Game.htm

At least not too many people have been recommending 12 gauge. I don't know what it is about that cartridge, but people really overestimate it, way too much.

nfl1990
November 1, 2007, 05:45 PM
Remington 700 in .308win. Use ap rounds and go for the head.

Zoogster
November 1, 2007, 06:04 PM
I have seen that video, and it sure appears to me the lion is hit more than once.

It is hard to tell if the lion is hit by the original shot from afar. It falls over, seems unstable on its feet as it gets back up, and is quite upset. Those all seem like indications it was hit.

Then as it charges the shooter and jumps it seems contorted in pain midair as if something it did not expect just happened, landing unstable and rolling on the ground. It then runs off when it clearly wants to attack.

I would venture it got hit at least once if not more. Poor caliber and/or poor shot placement.

Male lions are thin skinned and quite vulnerable to low and medium power rifle calibers. Most standard rifle rounds could easily kill one. However they are very determined critters with a lot of willpower. So they may still attack even after recieving a lot of physical damage if they are able.
In the wild thier sole purpose in life is to fight.
Male lions rarely participate in hunting, and thier physique is not really suitable for chasing or running down prey. So they tend to be testosterone filled guards of pack and territory, moreso than most other animals since it is thier sole position in life. So saying they can be quite stubborn even with a bullet in them is an understatement.

Stevie-Ray
November 1, 2007, 06:27 PM
Normally, I doubt I'd settle for less than a .416 Rem mag, but since I've never fired one, I'd bring my SAR-48 with a full 20 round mag.:o

jerkface11
November 1, 2007, 06:55 PM
.303 British has probably killed more lions than any other cartridge.

MDHunter
November 1, 2007, 07:13 PM
just to toss in with what others are saying, and perhaps to debate a couple of posts...

Someone mentioned using a 12 gauge might have been better, since that's what Alaskan guides use for bear protection. Um, maybe FISHING guides use this when they're on the river with their clients, possibly because it's less burdensome to carry than a hi-powered rifle. Most HUNTING guides in Ak I've known or talked to carry a rifle of .338 Winchester caliber or greater; some opt for a .375 or a .416. there's no comparison between a 12 gauge and a .30 caliber rifle or anything more powerful, the rifle is far superior.

Someone mentioned maybe poor caliber. Perhaps a tracker or two was carrying a small caliber rifle, but most professional hunters require their hunters to carry a .375 H&H as a minimum for dangerous game; and the PH usually carries something at least that powerful - so the hunter and the PH should have had rifles that were plenty powerful. I'm guessing that they did hit the lion a couple of times, but not in a vital spot to break it down or hit a vital organ.

After watching that video, if I were to encounter a lion in the States, I'd want my biggest rifle in my hands.....my .338 WinMag with 250 grain bullets.

Michael

MikePGS
November 1, 2007, 08:59 PM
Yikes, i don't think the guys in that video established clear fields of fire at all. Its a wonder that the lion was the only thing to hit someone.


That being said, from what i've read on the internets you should hunt lions with a .45 caliber 1911, since its the ultimate in stopping power :D

Ala Dan
November 1, 2007, 09:14 PM
.338 Win Mag~! ;) :D

Anything larger is an overkill~! :scrutiny: :eek: :(

Nolo
November 1, 2007, 10:34 PM
.308 Winchester/.30-06/.303 British/7.62x54R/8mm Mauser, etc. The placement is more important than the power, in my opinion, if you can penetrate the skull, then you're okay. A Mosin-Nagant shooting 180-grainers would be fine in my opinion, which is based off of theory, not experience. Just an educated, inexperienced guess, really. I think that the lighter kick of the battle rifle cartridges is more important than the greater power of the big magnums, .338 Mag is worthless if you miss (like those hunters in the video).

North of 49th
November 1, 2007, 11:16 PM
If you feel really brave you could go for 12Ga with sabot slug

North of 49th
November 1, 2007, 11:19 PM
sorry didn't finish writing. ^ But i think that you should be fine with 7mm Rem. Mag or anything above that. If you can take a fully grown Grizzly down with it a lion sould not be much worse.

Lucky
November 1, 2007, 11:31 PM
http://www.brassfetcher.com/12gaugeFedTacSlug.html

pfft, that would only leave a superficial wound. Seriously, what normal animal wouldn't be OK with a 6"x10" permanent cavity in it? Trivial, really. Nothing like other magical bullets. http://www.brassfetcher.com/Sellier%20&%20Bellot%20150gr%20Soft-point.html :)

Wow, that's like having a milk carton removed from you, poof, suddenly there's space for a post hole in your chest.

plexreticle
November 1, 2007, 11:42 PM
I doubt $3k would cover the cost of tracking and trapping an animal like that.

K3
November 1, 2007, 11:46 PM
.577 Tyrannosaur. Nothing less will do. Lions have kevlar and ceramic under their fur.

C'mon, it's only 160lb-ft of recoil!

eliphalet
November 2, 2007, 12:54 AM
I would want the skill, nerve and whatever caliber/gun this guy is using.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x_yTNo36YOs

BigO01
November 2, 2007, 01:15 AM
This has happened Before with African Lions getting loose .

Lion scare prompts citizens to ask for regulation
QUITMAN, Ark. (AP) In the past week, four 600- to 800-pound African lions believed to have some connection to a nearby exotic animal farm have been killed near this central Arkansas town. And residents say the terror may not be over because no one knows for sure whether more lions are on the loose.

One of four loose lions shot and killed by law enforcement officers in an area north of Quitman, Ark.
By Stephen B. Thornton, AP

Lisa Vaughan says her log cabin in the woods was so peaceful that sometimes the only sound that could be heard was the trees swaying in the wind.

Now she's listening for lions.

"I had a terrible headache, and my blood pressure has been up. ... It's been a long ordeal," says Vaughan, whose husband, Johnny, killed two of the lions with his .30-06 rifle.

"Everybody is scared around here," neighbor Arvil Skinner says. "People have to sit out with a high-powered rifle just to let their kids play in the yard. That's just how serious it is. It might be all right and it might not. They might still be out there. We just don't know."

The Vaughans say they believe that the lions belong to animal farm operator Steve Henning, who moved in on the other side of the patch of trees almost a year ago. He brought with him 11 African lions, 30 tigers, five mountain lions and a lynx.

Henning says the lions killed in the woods were not his. He speculates that someone who tried to give him lions last week turned them loose on the 44-acre property of Safari Unlimited, the lion and tiger farm he operates.

The farm is not open to the public, Henning says. Aside from the pens where Henning keeps his cats, the property is not fully fenced.

Neighbors express disbelief over Henning's response. "That really blows my mind how anyone could believe that story," Lisa Vaughan says.

Henning was not able to give Cleburne County sheriff's deputies or the Arkansas Game and Fish Commission the name of a person they could track down, authorities say. "Mr. Henning told us the guy goes by different names, and he doesn't know where he lives," Deputy Jack Allen says.

Sheriff Dudley Lemon, who has inspected Safari Unlimited, says he thinks Henning is telling the truth. But, he adds, believing Henning's story does mean more big cats could be roaming the woods.

Johnny Vaughan says he will be the first to apologize to Henning if it's proven the lions that have been killed didn't belong to him.

But he and his neighbors in this town of 700 people located about 60 miles north of Little Rock want local laws amended so that Henning can't keep lions and tigers in their neighborhood.

"We've got to try and pass something to not only protect the people, but also to protect the animals," Johnny Vaughan says. "It's sad to think that someone can have that many animals but they don't need some sort of license."

glockman19
November 2, 2007, 01:34 AM
I thnk at that close range a .44 mag would do the trick. Also aim would be easier with a lever action or revolver IMHO.

Big Boomer
November 2, 2007, 01:52 AM
A do I need a permit? B can I keep the pelt?

first things first, hunting Lions is like playing king of the food chain. You are just as apt to be the hunted as the hunter.

You'd have to be very "tacticool" you'd need nightvision equipment and a directional sound device, bullet proof everything! You have to take classes in Ninjitsu at the local mall after school or on weekends for at least a couple of days.

You must have read up on a few short stories involving navy seals for sure! You will have to paint your face all up so that you could not be detected. You might even have to put deer urine on your boots (although I am not sure why).

You must become one with nature and think like the beast thinks, hrmm Big Mac, um rather juicy two-legged man-snack!

You must roll around in the dirt before you enter the area to gain the "scents" of the land and must not have showered for at least a week, and for the love of pete don't brush your teeth either. One must carry a blinding surefire flashlight to stun the beast in it's tracks while you take aim with your weapon of choice! And that would be?

My high point 9mm! Not only because it's the caliber used by special forces but the rapid fire capability of the semi-auto action will guarantee a quick kill. I will be using super lethal fang face ammo from Extreme Shock! (I had to save my lunch money for 2 months to buy a box!)

Fight Fangs with Fangs!

mata777
November 2, 2007, 02:24 AM
Screw the $3000.00 for live capture. I would shoot it with my .50 beowulf and save a whole lot of money versus a trip/hunt in Africa. :D

Malice
November 2, 2007, 04:36 AM
Ok... I am not against hunting, and I hope to go hunting one day soon myself, BUT...

Am I the only one who wished that the lion in that video had done a lot more damage to the :cuss: who shot it?

Honestly. If you are that inept, you deserve to get your face torn off. If you insist on paying all sorts of money and time to go to Africa and shoot such a truely impressive animal, at least do it right. If you and your four friends with rifles go see out but cant kill one lion without it knocking you to the ground, you deserve more than a scare.

Dr.Rob
November 2, 2007, 05:44 AM
Hatari! (Bring 'em back alive!) Any bubba with a bang stick can shoot a runt lion... but capture it? That might take cajones of steel.

30 cal slob
November 2, 2007, 07:25 AM
Hatari ... I loved that movie.

ceetee
November 2, 2007, 08:56 AM
Callahan Fullbore Autolock.


Pretty much says it all, right there.

gunsmith
November 2, 2007, 10:06 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyJMxd9iYjY

Q.
What is an African Lion doing in the West Virginia hills?
A.
anything it wants to do.

MD_Willington
November 2, 2007, 11:19 AM
My grandfather nailed a lion with a SMLE in .303... he was a MP with the British Army in WW2...

Eyesac
November 2, 2007, 12:03 PM
You must have read up on a few short stories involving navy seals for sure!

Hahaha!

doubleg
November 2, 2007, 12:55 PM
.308 M1A

It was charging at me I swear! ;)

ARKIESTEEL
November 2, 2007, 02:41 PM
I cant understand some of the lack of trust for the 12 gauge. Some of the slug guns now are shooting really well at 100 yards and that is a lot of lead hitting pretty hard. Seems like Capstick would follow up wounded lion with 12 gauge #4 buck and that man killed lots of lions. Most any rifle good enough for elk would do fine but if I have to stake my life on something a good pump 12 loaded with slugs and buckshot comes to mind pretty quick. Might carry my 629 smith for back up some 310's should keep my hip weighted down about right.

Twud
November 2, 2007, 03:10 PM
I say he gets capped during the upcoming deer season. Wouldn't that be something to show the boys in town.
Bad timing for the lion.

kd7nqb
November 2, 2007, 03:57 PM
I say my chevy truck chasing this thing at 45mph should do it. Might be better if there happens to be hot lead from a pistol flying out of it at the same time. Seriously in a me vs lion moment I choose truck.

Zoogster
November 2, 2007, 04:44 PM
Hatari! (Bring 'em back alive!) Any bubba with a bang stick can shoot a runt lion... but capture it? That might take cajones of steel.

Very true. To think the Romans brought many back alive to thier gladiator pits long before they had darts or the ability to shoot shows just how tough people were back then.
Dozens of live bears, lions, tigers or anything else that could be thrown in a pit together or with people were captured alive and transported long distances by people with only primative tools. They didn't hurt or kill such massive beasts even though they were viciously fighting for all they were worth.

That shows some serious skill.

Propping yourself up from a distance and shooting is not so difficult. That is why they must charge people tons of money to do it, otherwise there would be no lions left.

Harley Quinn
November 2, 2007, 04:51 PM
Wow, that's like having a milk carton removed from you, poof, suddenly there's space for a post hole in your chest.

Exactly:what:

There were many books written about Africa by Various Big game "Hunters"
Some of the best tell about the damage that is inflicted on the thin skin animals that are very cunning and vicious, crippled by a bad shot, hiding in the bush and jumping on or at them as they go by.

Many in that situation opted for the "shotgun". For reasons mentioned.:uhoh: Capstick being famous for opting for the finer shot rather than a slug or 00 or 000.
http://www.amazon.com/s?ie=UTF8&search-type=ss&index=books&field-author=Peter%20H.%20Capstick&page=1
Just read a few of his books:

Nolo
November 2, 2007, 05:33 PM
IT'S COMING RIGHT FOR US!!!

koja48
November 2, 2007, 05:56 PM
Wetting themselves?

Zoogster
November 2, 2007, 06:20 PM
what the mountan lions are doing around the other lion

Wetting themselves?

Mountain lions and African lions are completely different animals and would not come into contact a lot in the wild.
The African lion, especialy the male is heavier built, less agile and cannot climb, run, jump, or sneak as well as the more graceful and stealthy mountain lion or cats built like a leopard. I saw a documentary where a lion tried to climb up into a tree another cat was in with a kill. The lion got up, as the other cat just jumped away, but the lion fell out and broke its back.

So I imagine the mountain lion knows the African lion is there long before the African lion ever knows it is there.

In a pit or cage the African lion has the advantage, but in the wild a leopard or Bengal tiger could sneak up and kill the heavier built African lion. However animals are smarter and more thoughtful than that. Risking injury even if one succeeds is risking the ability to hunt and eat.

So the African lion probably just never sees them.

A lone male African lion would fare pretty bad in the wilderness. They are built to defend the "pride" or pack, and heavy and muscular. They probably won't get enough to eat to stay well built alone. In the wild they depend on the much slimer built females to feed them by hunting.

Just like a Liger, a massive and powerful animal, would never survive in the wild. They are simply too massive, require too many calories, and become exhausted too fast to feed themselves as much food as they require.

Success in the wild, or even lethality is not about being the biggest baddest thing around.

thebaldguy
November 2, 2007, 07:19 PM
AK with extra magazines?

Someone had to say it.

koja48
November 2, 2007, 08:01 PM
I'll bet it darn sure helps! Don't believe that coyotes driving a grizz off a kill happens very often. Carnivorous animal senses being reasonably equal (tho I made my original post in jest), I stick with the "wetting themselves" or realizing that the superior predator/"ain't nothing I've ever encountered before" instinct is invoked and the cougar clears out or becomes dinner. More cats see us than we see cats. They are cagey & cautious creatures.


would not come into contact a lot in the wild . . . it's ONE lion, so odds are astronomical, but I think this is NOT out of the realm of possibility. If this were the case, NO predator would ever eat. Sh** happens . . . African lion approaching down wind, cougar from the side or upwind . . . both in the same neck of the woods . . . one cougar, one African lion face-to-face-confrontation . . . cougar loses.

So the African lion probably just never sees them. I heartily agree with this, based on my initial post, and disagree in part with this . . .

Success in the wild, or even lethality is not about being the biggest baddest thing around.. Stealth & patience/persistence can be an asset, BUT, if an encounter occurs, the "biggest & baddest" wins. Been in too many fights to discount this theory, and we are, after all, carnivores . . .

Cosmoline
November 2, 2007, 08:10 PM
http://blogs.usatoday.com/ondeadline/2007/10/in-west-virgini.html

Twenty pounds of raw chicken left on the site last week were devoured, but McClung said that doesn't prove the lion's existence.

Jake?

To think the Romans brought many back alive to thier gladiator pits long before they had darts or the ability to shoot shows just how tough people were back then.

They had slaves and servants to expend if needed on such a project. They were effective enough they drove multiple species to extinction and cleared the med of most of its large game animals.

Mountain lions and African lions are completely different animals and would not come into contact a lot in the wild.

They wouldn't come into contact AT ALL. Cougars are a New World animal. This lion, if it exists, is deletarious exotic game. Probably someone's illegal pet that escaped. It should be shot on sight.

Harley Quinn
November 2, 2007, 08:30 PM
Here is an interesting side line about the Lion in WV...
*********

The AP reports that state and local officials set up a video camera at the scene -- and left 20 pounds of raw chicken there, which was devoured. Unfortunately, there apparently is no video record of the devourer -- and the story's not quite clear about which came first, the camera or the chicken."

How frickin inept can you be? And they hire & pay these "state & local officials"? Why. Maybe they can all draw straws to determine who gets to be the next bait left out for the Lion King!
Did anybody bother to check to see if the video camera is tapping?
Hello McFly, is there anybody home?

************

They are as impressed as others here at THR about those officials..
:D

That lion may never have tasted chicken LOL...

chemist308
November 2, 2007, 09:12 PM
A 22LR could do the trick. But if you're really intent on killing the kitty for no good reason, I'd recommend just for you to use a 223 Remington. Or if you really want a challange you could try stalk hunting with a bow and homemade wooden arrows...

Zoogster
November 2, 2007, 09:17 PM
I'll bet it darn sure helps! Don't believe that coyotes driving a grizz off a kill happens very often.
Actualy I just saw a documentary in Yellowstone of wolves chasing a grizzly bear off from its kill. They didn't attack it directly, they just chomped on its heels and the bite always came from the one it was not facing. When it attempted to attack one they just stayed out of reach.
It can and does happen. A domestic dog might go straight for the animal and find itself in a brawn vs brawn match quickly losing. A wild animal however is not so foolish.

it's ONE lion, so odds are astronomical, but I think this is NOT out of the realm of possibility. If this were the case, NO predator would ever eat.
No they don't eat based on chance. They pusue prey and hunt. They may stumble on something by chance, but eating is because they intentional hunt and stalk prey, not because they accidentaly run into it.

Face to face confrontation? They are completely different creatures, if the cougar used face to face confrontations on any of its targets it would probably never eat. They are ambush predators, stealth is 90% of thier game.
Male African lions are probably the least stealthy cat of them all. They would be clueless to the presence of a cougar, leopard, or tiger, unless one of those species was eating a kill and the smell tipped them off.
If they chose to stalk the male African lion I am sure they could kill it with a surprise bite to the neck before the brawn of the lion gave it any advantage. Yet why would they bother? It would not be able to kill most of thier prey, and would starve. It would risk getting injured and being unable to hunt and eat.
They could also easily get away by climbing, jumping or outrunning the African lion and simply return using stealth to once again have the advantage. Only in a pit with stealth and cunning removed from the equation would the african lion prevail.

Stealth & patience/persistence can be an asset, BUT, if an encounter occurs, the "biggest & baddest" wins. Been in too many fights to discount this theory, and we are, after all, carnivores . . .
Comparing humans is way off. Humans are extremely far from such animals, and humans advantage is entirely due to intelligence. Whether that intelligence is how to use fire, make a spear, or build a gun it has nothing to do with being the biggest and baddest. Even in human to human fights, it has long been the culture or the people with the most advanced weaponry, armor, and tactics both in groups and on an individual basis that prevailed.
In fact since most humans traveled large territory by foot in prior times, soldiers were all lean and strong. Muscle burns a lot of calories, and people only ate what they or minimal support could carry. The image of body builders as professional soldiers is a Hollywood thing. No soldier throughout history ate enough calories or could carry enough calories to be that way while carrying heavy armor and weapons marching hundreds of miles.

Those that survive are the ones that adapt the best. The fact that we have large deadly mountain lions still in the wild, but Grizzly bears and wolves have been killed off that ranged all over more than half of America down into Mexico shows you which one was able to adapt to humans and a changing environment.

The digestive tract on humans shows we are not carnivores, we are omnivores, with our digestive tract in between that of a carnivore and an herbivore, closer to the later. It is far too long and lacking some features for great digestion of solely meat. It is too short and lacking other features seen on purely herbivores. Our teeth are mainly incisors for chopping plants, a couple canines for meat, and a bunch of molars for grinding plant matter. Most mammals that are strictly carnivores have mainly pointed sharp large canine teeth for tearing and cutting meat, and small weak incisors with moderately developed molars. Most plant eating mammals have mainy flat well pronounced incissors, minimal canines, and flat well developed molars.
We are omnivores, but we are designed more for plant matter than meat.
Both our digestive systems and our teeth prove this. Meat by body design is only supposed to be a minimal part of your diet.



They had slaves and servants to expend if needed on such a project. They were effective enough they drove multiple species to extinction and cleared the med of most of its large game animals
I didn't say it was right, or that I agree with it. I just think it shows a high level of capability. Europe lost most of its big game due to them, and that is sad. However much of Europe also lost most of its natural habitat to make room for the fuedal system where the amount of crops you owned determined how powerful and wealth you were. Most of Europe was turned into endless rolling cropland, with much of the modern trees intentionaly planted later. Wild habitat and a complete fauna hardly exists in Europe, there is still wilderness, but it hardly qualifies or sheltered the majority of the wildlife that once existed.


They wouldn't come into contact AT ALL. Cougars are a New World animal. This lion, if it exists, is deletarious exotic game. Probably someone's illegal pet that escaped. It should be shot on sight.
They shouldn't come into contact, but there is old world species similar enough to them. It is hypothetical anyways, assuming a lion was in the wilderness, and surviving as some prior stories allude.
I agree it is an exotic species likely a pet, and therefore going to be even more likely to pose a threat to humans by coming into cotact with them. It would also likely be dependent on trash and garbage, or people's pets as it would lack an ability to feed itself well through hunting. This makes it even more of a threat.

koja48
November 2, 2007, 10:52 PM
Did I reference wolves? Please re-read . . . huge difference between a wolf pack and coyotes! If you wish to debate, please use the example to which I referred.

They pursue prey and hunt. Step 1) Encounter that which you will pursue & hunt. Step 2) Proceed to hunt. I stated that IF a cougar encountered an African lion face-to-face, the cougar is out-gunned. At NO time did I describe one stalking the other. I didn't suggest that a cougar would stalk the Lion . . . and I sincerely doubt that one would.

Re: humans & any other critter . . . sorry, zoog, but in a direct confrontation, size, ability, & aggressiveness matters. Nor did I refer to "weapons;" I said "fight" . . . let me clarify: physical, hand-to-hand combat . . . size, ability, & aggressiveness matters, period! If you disbelieve, feel free to go to the roughest bar in town & challenge the biggest, meanest manster you see . . . and good luck. I also didn't allude to "adaptation." I solely discussed immediate, eye-ball to eye-ball confrontation. 1 cougar, 1 African lion in a direct conflict . . . cougar loses . . . given the opportunity, the cougar would also make haste, IMHO.

Ain't in my neck of the woods, so I really don't give a rip. Have a good evening.

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