Need help choosing 1st 9mm


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.45&TKD
November 1, 2007, 03:19 PM
I've been groping for a reason to get a 9mm. I was a .45 1911 snob for a long time and have recently branched off to the .40 in Glock 22 and I like it.

The reason I've come up with to get a 9mm is common availability of ammo. In a TEOTWAWKI situation I could imagine eventually running low or running out of certain ammo calibers. It makes sense to have at least one 9mm in the collection. Because of the TEOTWAWKI and ammo availability scenario, I think a 9mm that can safely shoot reloads and lead bullets is important.

Criiteria:
-Full Size preferred (I carry a full size 1911 now)
-Double Stack Hi Cap preferred (to take advantage of smaller cartridge)
-No Polymers (Lead reloads eliminate the Glock)
-New, used, or milsurp OK
-Steel frame preferred, but could compromise with AL alloy if a better platform
-$300-600 price range

I'm thinking either a used Sig P226 or one of the CZ's. (And I know almost nothing about these two).

Are there any other options? Any opinions? Thanks for your help.

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1BLINDREF
November 1, 2007, 03:22 PM
In a TEOTWAWKI situation
Little help???

I think that you are on the right track with a P226 or a CZ75. Both are quality guns that will serve you well.
Try them both and pick the one you like best.

.45&TKD
November 1, 2007, 03:24 PM
Quote:
In a TEOTWAWKI situation

Little help???

The End of the World as we know it.

RUT
November 1, 2007, 03:26 PM
>>recently branched off to the .40 in Glock 22 and I like it.<<

Then how about a Glock 17?

D-Man
November 1, 2007, 03:35 PM
The End of the World as we know it.

And I feel fine.

Ok, with that out of the way......

A used P226, new CZ75, and new Beretta 92 come to mind offhand.

1BLINDREF
November 1, 2007, 03:36 PM
Quote:
In a TEOTWAWKI situation

Little help???

Thanks!!

Hokkmike
November 1, 2007, 03:40 PM
P-226.

deacon
November 1, 2007, 03:40 PM
45...


The Sig is a traditional DA/SA and I believe the CZ can be had in either single action or traditional DA/SA flavor.

It seems from reading your post that you prefer/have had either a single action or safe action pistol type.

In keeping wth that traditon, I cannot recommend enough a Browning Hi-Power. It meets all of your criteria and should serve you well. It may take a little while to find one though...it did for me anyhow. But after about 2 years of looking, I finally got a NIB practical for $ 399.99 at a local Gander Mountain and couldn't be more satisfied with the purchase.

Anyhow, keep us posted and good luck :)



Brad

.45&TKD
November 1, 2007, 03:43 PM
Deac,

You're right, a BHP would fit the bill as well. Thanks.

Rangegod
November 1, 2007, 03:43 PM
Here's a hint:

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=49024&stc=1&d=1165583466

JAC

Ninja42
November 1, 2007, 03:45 PM
CZ75b, that is certainly what you are looking for! Its all stell, has a 17 shot magazine, 19 if you take the wonderful SP01 variant, and its fairly cheap even from new. Oh, and did I mention that it is one of the finest shooters on the planet? Buy one, I swear by the gods that you will not regret it.

Lonestar49
November 1, 2007, 03:46 PM
Quote: Here's a hint:
--------
...

Just find that wallpaper, and you have the right choices hanging on your wall.


Ls ;)

.45&TKD
November 1, 2007, 03:48 PM
Does the BHP feed hollow points reliably? That would be another criteria.

R&J
November 1, 2007, 05:36 PM
Forgive me, but IMHO, the cost of an aftermarket barrel should not preclude the awesome G17 from consideration as a TEOTWAWKI fall-back weapon. In fact, I'd argue that it is your best choice for such a purpose.

Let me explain myself.

There are two reasons not to use reloads in a Glock:

1) While Glock's rifling does squeeze a bit more speed from a given ammo, it does promote lead fouling, which is a maintenance problem.

2) While the slightly looser tolerances of the Glock firing chamber do contribute to its legendary reliability--repeat legendary--under a vast number of operating conditions, they are not suitable for reloads due to the minute case swelling the chamber-fit allows.

Consider a famous inverse--the high-precision German Luger, which would not operate reliably in the cold of the Russian Front, where you might really need it! The tolerances were too tight! The design too fussy! :uhoh:

Shooting reloads from a Glock is easily addressed...

The following offer quality aftermarket barrels for the G17:

http://www.stormlakebarrels.com/home.aspx

http://www.barsto.com/category_main.cfm?ID=GLOCK

http://www.lonewolfdist.com/

All of the above will allow naked lead reloads, and perform reliably and accurately in the G17.

What's more, all common repair parts can be readily purchased for the Glock 17, and stocked on standby. Isn't this desirable for a TEOTWAWKI 9 mm? :confused:

All the best accessories, like 33-round magazines and six inch barrels, laser sights and weapon-lights, night sights and magazines, are readily available for the Glock 17. Isn't this desirable in a TEOTWAWKI 9 mm? :)

A minimal tool kit for a Glock consists of:

1) Glock Armorer's Tool
2) Bore Brush
3) Oil Can

Some people clean their Glocks in a dishwasher! :what: Isn't this perfect for a SHTF, EOTWAWKI 9 mm? :rolleyes:

The Glocks were designed so that we could take apart 100 G17s, throw the parts in a basket, and quickly reassemble 100 9 mm combat handguns in as little time as possible, using minimal tools. Is this not a winning trait in a TEOTWAWKI 9 mm? :D

My 3rd Gen G17 has nearly 7000-rounds through it, including DT +p ammo, without one hiccup.

Our 3rd Gen G17 & G19 have handled the 33-round magazines without one glitch, using all manner of ammo types--including +p hollow points.

The Glock 17 has the well earned reputation for a world class, field-proven, 9 mm combat platform, that dates back some 27-years. It is the most popular 9 mm semi-auto currently employed on the planet. Doesn't that speak to you? Be logical--this is your criterion, don't forget... :scrutiny:

My advice for TEOTWAWKI: Get a good auto-loading shotgun. Get a G17 and a G19 as back up! ;)

--Ray

P.S. Also, your G22 can be converted to 9 mm with a KKM conversion barrel--something to consider as the apocalypse draws near! ;)

up_onus
November 1, 2007, 05:39 PM
oh PLEASE take a look at the springfield armory EMP....
www.springfield-armory.com and it won the NRA award...
http://www.nrapublications.org/bullseye.asp

JDGray
November 1, 2007, 05:47 PM
CZ all the way:D Best shooter I own.

.45&TKD
November 1, 2007, 07:22 PM
R&J,

Isn't it the unsupported chamber in the Glock that makes reloads hazardous?

I don't see how the aftermarket barrels would solve that.

everallm
November 1, 2007, 07:34 PM
+1 on the CZ SP-01, tough as nails, eats pretty much anything you can throw at it, reliable, 19 round mags, great "hand feel".

For a SHTF/TEOTWAWKI it also has a KADET .22 conversion as well for about $250 bucks.

I admit to loving mine.......

Ninja42
November 1, 2007, 07:34 PM
In glocks, the chamber and the barrel is basically the same piece of metal, so by changing the barrel to a reload friendly one you are actually getting a similar barrel with a tighter chamber cut into one end.

In fact, I cant really think of any autoloader where the chamber and the barrel are seperate.

kentucky_smith
November 1, 2007, 07:57 PM
I'd be looking at either CZs or BHPs...

goon
November 1, 2007, 08:18 PM
I just got a used P-226 CPO.
Reliability seems perfect but I have only shot a couple hundred rounds through it up to now. But I don't forsee any issues.
The grips didn't fit my gun quite right so I emailed SIG and they sent me new grips in the mail. It's perfect now.
It's what I would get.
Actually, if I had bought a P-226 as my first I would probably not have ever wanted to buy anything else.

BTW - the BHP is also a good gun. I've never heard of any issues with them using JHP's and they have been around for a LONG time.
A local gunsmith I used to talk with a lot said that in 50 years of working on guns he had never worked on a BHP. That says something for them.

GVMan
November 1, 2007, 10:14 PM
+1 to what R&J said about a Glock and a different barrel. I wouldn't get a new barrel for any fears about the unsupported chamber but because the OEM polygonal rifling gets fouled up with lead which results in over pressure.

Additionally if it is a true TEOTWAWKI situation I think two long term problems are going to be parts availability and mag availability because sooner or later you will break something. If a simple trigger spring or magazine breaks I think the chances of finding another Glock or Glock mag to use for parts is higher than it would be for any other gun. I may be wrong and am only guessing.

foxmoor
November 1, 2007, 11:22 PM
Cz Sp-01!

Rod B
November 1, 2007, 11:25 PM
CZ75/85 series, you won't regret it.:)

glk23
November 1, 2007, 11:35 PM
Listen to the others, get a CZ; either a 75 or SP01. You will not be sorry buying one.

The Lone Haranguer
November 1, 2007, 11:37 PM
Smith & Wesson's traditional metal frame DA autos (used) are abundant in this price range. Probably the epitome of these guns is the 5906, a "Third Generation" in all stainless steel. I am also very fond of the slim little 3913; this is a single-stack (8-round mag), but is just as reliable and if anything more accurate than the bigger guns. The slide-mounted safeties are not the easiest to operate (if you use them as safeties), but this is not insurmountable. They are also available in DAO.

Vito_Corleone
November 1, 2007, 11:44 PM
Used P226, P229 or USPf9.

Blue .45
November 2, 2007, 12:02 AM
I just bought a new CZ75B this week. I passed on a like new Beretta 92FS (USA Ver.) in favor of the CZ. This gun fits perfectly in my hand and points extremely well. After taking it to the range yesterday, I was very impressed with the accuracy and reliability as well. That said, I still wouldn't mind adding that Beretta to my collection at some point in the future. FWIW, both guns have cocked and locked capability if this is something you favor.

Pops 1
November 2, 2007, 12:12 AM
I bought a Beretta 92FS a few weeks ago, it is a shooter. Pops

R&J
November 2, 2007, 12:33 AM
"R&J,

Isn't it the unsupported chamber in the Glock that makes reloads hazardous?

I don't see how the aftermarket barrels would solve that."

*****

Ninja42's got it right--the chamber walls are beefier on the aftermarket barrels.

It's done all the time--shooting reloads from Glocks with an aftermarket barrel. You don't want to hot rod it too much! As in the case of any gross reloading error, you'll pretty much blow any gun up!

I have an old friend that has a Gen-1 G17 and G20, and has loaded his own ammo since, well, forever! KKM, Bar-Sto, Storm Lake--all will serve you well for reloading, and firing naked lead bullets. Visit a Glock forum and you'll find it's common practice.

Since we're talking a TEOTWAWKI 9 mm, I'd stock at least one spare barrel!

There are some excellent 9mm alternatives offered here. But the question wasn't what's the coolest, what's the cheapest, what's the best handling?, etc. The question was, what's the best full-size 9 mm for a TEOTWAWKI scenario, and I will maintain it's the Glock 17, for the reasons I've mentioned.

Even better, would be the G18 (G17 with full auto capability), if you can get one! ;)

Get your 33-round mags from Natchez: http://www.natchezss.com/index.cfm

--Ray

.45&TKD
November 2, 2007, 12:51 AM
I've been looking at the mag prices for the CZ's.

The factory mags go for @ $45 each??? That's ridiculous.

What do you guys do for mags?

Blue .45
November 2, 2007, 01:33 AM
I just ordered a 16rd. Mec-Gar magazine from Midwayusa.

http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?saleitemid=918412&t=11082005

As I understand it Mec-Gar makes the factory mags for this gun as well. Of course, someone can correct me me if this is incorrect.

CDNN has them for about $18, but they were out of stock at the time I ordered mine.

http://www.cdnninvestments.com/cz9mm16blman.html.

R&J
November 2, 2007, 01:47 AM
"The factory mags go for @ $45 each??? That's ridiculous."

Vs. $23.99 for a Glock OEM 33-round Magazine! :neener:

--Ray

UnTainted
November 2, 2007, 03:11 AM
Get the sig 226. There are 15, 17, and 18 round mags that fit flush with the gun. This gun is one sweet-shooting full-size 9mm!

evan price
November 2, 2007, 11:58 PM
If you are a died-in-the-wool 1911 guy, check out the 9mm Star Model B's at AIMSurplus. $299, and they are 03 C&R ffl listed.
Parts and spare mags not so easy to acquire, I imagine.

Sigs will do ya right. Many military and SF units carry them today.
If you are used to GLocks now, that's also a good second choice.

It all depends on if you want to learn a new manual of arms for a different pistol.

Slugless
November 3, 2007, 12:12 AM
SIG P226. What a nice, nice pistol that is.

Browning Hi-Power - nice piece but the ergonomics aren't modern and I'd definitely get a trigger job. Worth considering, all milled steel appeals to me.

Glock 17. Shot one for the first time this summer. Wish I had bought one of those for my first pistol instead of the Taurus 92. I'm not a Glockfanboy but I'd buy one of those in a heartbeat - if I needed another 9mm.

Never messed with a CZ pistol.

I wouldn't touch a Star BM with a 10 foot pole. A pistol should shoot straight.

Overall I'd go with the SIG.

Blue .45
November 3, 2007, 12:22 AM
I just bought a new CZ75B this week. I passed on a like new Beretta 92FS (USA Ver.) in favor of the CZ. This gun fits perfectly in my hand and points extremely well. After taking it to the range yesterday, I was very impressed with the accuracy and reliability as well.

After a second trip to the range today, I have to amend my comments with regard to reliability. While firing, I had the slide stop randomly engage on two occasions when using Federal's American Eagle 147gr. TMJ ammo. I plan to call CZ monday to have them send me a new slide stop. I hope this fixes it, because I really like the way this gun handles.

mekender
November 3, 2007, 01:28 AM
metal frames

cz-75
ruger sr9
beretta 92fs
browning hi power

for poly

FNP-9
Beretta Px4
Sig
Glock


personally, the new ruger looks sweet and is really light... i was shooting a cz-75 the other day and was easily able to hit a 6inch target at 50 yards about 40% of the time with the rest of the mags hitting the box the target was stuck on... so that would be a really high up choice too

10-Ring
November 3, 2007, 01:34 AM
I have a few favorite 9mms -- BHP, USP9, G19 and 92fs. I guess I can't commit :o

9mmfanatic
November 3, 2007, 02:56 AM
I have shot close to 2000rds with my cz 75b stainless model, and it is by far my most favorite gun. Eats any bullet, and begs for more. Heavy all steal structure makes it a very solid. If you like stainless, stronger metal, and the looks, its the only way to go. My father owns a cz 75b, and has a little over 1000 rds without cleaning, and the damn thing keeps on shooting. All I can say it is a great gun. I paid a little high, 600$ out the door, but got it new from a reputable dealer and was worth the extra 50$ or so.

damagefactor
November 3, 2007, 03:40 AM
For SHTF scenarios where I would need to reload with lead, I would use a revolver!

Lead deforms easily (as i'm sure you all are aware), causing rounds to hang on feed ramps. They just aren't field worthy in an auto pistol.

I've had JHPs do similar things in both my 92FS and USP.

You would be surprised, despite being loaded in a magazine and then placed in web gear - the top one or two rounds can take enough damage to prevent reliable feeding.

I've literally shot thousands of FMJs without a single feed failure from either weapon, yet every time I rotate JHP ammo out of my web gear I wind up with one or two feed failures - always from the top of the mags.

Quoheleth
November 3, 2007, 09:49 AM
Seriously...I would consider either the Taurus PT92 or Ruger P95. Taurus has an iffy rep with some of their guns, but rarely do those problems seem to come up with the '92. It's a shooter, 15-17 round mags, amby thumb safety mounted on the frame, full-size, metal frame, dependable, and combat accurate. The Ruger is also a brute. While it's a polymer frame, it is also rugged. Both are well within your price range. In fact, if you watch the used market, you can probably get BOTH for the prices you've given.

Neither one wins the sex appeal category, but they do what a gun should do - shoot reliably with combat accuracy - well.

Q

PX15
November 3, 2007, 10:05 AM
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_6844.jpg

Thanks for excluding the Walther P99/AS.. They are kinda hard for the folks who really want one to find, so you're not wanting one makes another available for somebody else!


Best Wishes,

J.Pomeroy

P.S. You'd just hate the P99c/AS. (Probably the b/u LWS32 also)..:barf:

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_6832.jpg

johnnyh
November 3, 2007, 12:27 PM
The one I have ( Ruger P93DC ) is a nice gun.

xax68
November 4, 2007, 12:26 PM
CZ75bd If ya run out of ammo beat em to death :)

Autolycus
November 4, 2007, 01:19 PM
I would suggest a GLock 17 with a whole bunch of magazines. And changing the barrel to shoot reloads as others have described is a good idea as well.

Koblenz
November 5, 2007, 10:58 AM
If you buy a Browning Hi Power be sure to get one of recent manufacture. Vintage Hi Powers were not made to feed hollow points. I don't know when the design was modified - probably in the 1980's or 1990's.

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