Midrange .357 vs midrange .40S&W, how do they compare?


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DMK
November 2, 2007, 09:02 PM
Lets consider both out of a 4" barrel to compare apples to apples (an average service gun size):

155 or 165gr .40 S&W JHP vs. 158gr .357 JHP

For a self defense and woods carry, are these rounds pretty comparable?

Both have a long history as an LEO round. How do the statistics rate them?

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Conqueror
November 2, 2007, 09:05 PM
At equal range the .357 will carry more energy, but most of the well-performed ballistics research (ie, Fackler et al) suggests that a pistol bullet should be large diameter rather than high-energy as long as both options can penetrate 12" of gel. You'll find me carrying .40 over .357.

mavracer
November 2, 2007, 09:22 PM
from doubletap websight
.40 S&W 155gr Speer Gold Dot JHP 50rds.
1200fps 495 ft/lbs from a 3.5"bbl.
1310fps 590 ft/lbs from a 4.5"bbl.
357 Magnum 158 Speer Gold Dot 50rds.
Velocity: 1400fps / 4" Ruger GP-100

DMK
November 2, 2007, 09:27 PM
I was looking at Speer's website for the Gold Dots:
http://www.speer-ammo.com/ballistics/ammo.aspx

(all from 4" barrel)

.40 S&W 165gr
1150 fps / 484 fpe

.40 S&W 155gr
1200 fps / 496 fpe

.357 158gr.
1235 fps / 535 fpe

Sounds pretty close to me, especially when you consider I'd have 11-13 rounds out of my CZ40B and only 6 rounds out of my Model 28-2.

It's also my understanding that 165gr. .40 has a better LEO record of dropping criminals than 155gr has. Then again, it might just be a more popular round.


Anybody have any good Ballistic Gel links for .40 155-165gr? Brassfetcher doesn't have any good tests for this weight, just 180s.

jad0110
November 2, 2007, 09:46 PM
The following comes from http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#357:

Heavy .357 Magnum

Item No. 19A20 180 gr. LFN-GC (1400 fps ME 783 ft. lbs.) Per

Item No. 19B20 170 gr. JHC (1400 fps ME 740 ft. lbs.)

Item No. 19C20 158 gr. JHC (1475 fps ME 763 ft. lbs.)

Item No. 19D20 125 gr. JHC (1700 fps ME 802 ft lbs.)


I see you will be woods-carrying in NC - the biggest 4 legged animals around here are black bears, and black bear attacks are extremely rare. So I'd be more worried about 2 legged, errect bipedals than anything else and either gun would serve you well in that regard. I'd carry the one I shot best, and for me that would be a 357 Magnum loaded with either 38s or 357s, as I can't hit the broad side of a barn from inside with a 40.

YMMV

roscoe
November 3, 2007, 03:44 AM
For woods protection, the .357 wins because of superior penetration. You can get 180 and 200 grain hardcast loads from Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap that will outpenetrate anything from an autoloader, including 10mm.

Having said that, however, Doubletap now makes a 200 grain hardcast in .40 that moves pretty fast (1000-1100 fps) and is sure to penetrate. It is not up to 10mm levels (which push the same 200 grain slug 1200-1300 fps), but better than anything else in normal autoloader rounds like 9mm, .45ACP, .357 SIG, .40, etc.

It is true, however, that virtually anywhere outside Alaska your biggest concern is hairless bipeds, and I usually carry accordingly. My exception to "usually" is when I have the toddlers camping in black bear country, and since they can't negotiate as effectively with bears as I can, I carry the big mother hardcast slugs in the .357 or .45 LC.

mavracer
November 3, 2007, 08:19 AM
For woods protection, the .357 wins because of superior penetration. You can get 180 and 200 grain hardcast loads from Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap that will outpenetrate anything from an autoloader, including 10mm.
I'm not sure I'd jump on that bandwagon this is from Doubletaps websight.
Caliber: 357 Magnum
Bullet: 200gr. Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Hardcast
Velocity: 1200fps / 4" Ruger GP-100
Caliber : 10mm
Bullet : 200gr Wide Flat Nose Gas Check Beartooth
Ballistics : 1300fps/ 750 ft./lbs. - Glock 20

DMK
November 3, 2007, 10:03 AM
I see you will be woods-carrying in NC - the biggest 4 legged animals around here are black bears, and black bear attacks are extremely rare.Out here on the west end, we also have Panthers (aka Painters, aka Mountain Lions). I've seen the mauling they give livestock and have friends who've lost pets to them. Though I've never heard of a human being attacked by cats locally.

jad0110
November 3, 2007, 02:08 PM
Out here on the west end, we also have Panthers (aka Painters, aka Mountain Lions). I've seen the mauling they give livestock and have friends who've lost pets to them. Though I've never heard of a human being attacked by cats locally.

True. They most likely pose more of a threat than a black bear, though again not as much as other people up to no good. There have been a number of pretty vicious ML attacks on people in the Pacific NW in recent years. But I too have never heard of attacks in the Carolinas. As you may know, black bears are easily frightened off, even when there are cubs around. Black bears will often "bluff charge" from what I understand, wherein they bolt in your direction, then shy away.

Mountain lions are not as heavily built as black bear. From what I've been told, the same general rules that apply to stopping bad guys also applies to mountain lions - basically most any medium or large bore handgun round will do the job, with proper shot placement of course. Even small bore will do the trick if you are a good shot.

Just curious, where in western NC are you able to hike, a National Forrest? I know there is a lot of National Park land out there, where firearm carry is prohibited (even open carry). It's been years since I've been hiking; maybe one day when my son is older.

DMK
November 3, 2007, 02:19 PM
Just curious, where in western NC are you able to hike, a National Forrest? I know there is a lot of National Park land out there, where firearm carry is prohibited (even open carry). It's been years since I've been hiking; maybe one day when my son is older.We have a lot of National Forest land here, but we also have a lot of state forest here too.

The odd thing is our local public rifle range is in the National Forest and you pay the annual fee at the Park Ranger station. I'm not sure how that works legally.

As you may know, black bears are easily frightened off, even when there are cubs around. Black bears will often "bluff charge" from what I understand, wherein they bolt in your direction, then shy away.I've never run into one up close myself, but the stories folks tell me indicate that Mountain Lions run off too. My sister had a flat on a lonely back road here. While she was trying to figure out what to do about the tire, a ML came wandering down around the bend. They both froze for a few seconds then when my sister moved to get in the car, the cat just turned, jumped about 8 feet onto the hill and took off into the woods.

eldon519
November 3, 2007, 02:25 PM
In regards to cast bullets, comparing velocity and bullet weight between .40 and .357 doesn't tell the whole story as far as penetration goes. An equal weight .357 bullet will have a much greater sectional density and will tend to penetrate further, even possibly at lower velocities than an equal weight .40/10mm bullet. A .40 S&W has about 25% more cross-sectional area than a .357 bullet.

mavracer
November 3, 2007, 02:36 PM
In regards to cast bullets, comparing velocity and bullet weight between .40 and .357 doesn't tell the whole story as far as penetration goes. An equal weight .357 bullet will have a much greater sectional density and will tend to penetrate further, even possibly at lower velocities than an equal weight .40/10mm bullet. A .40 S&W has about 25% more cross-sectional area than a .357 bullet.
I agree with all that,I was more disagreing with the
For woods protection, the .357 wins because of superior penetration. You can get 180 and 200 grain hardcast loads from Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap that will outpenetrate anything from an autoloader, including 10mm.

jaydubya
November 3, 2007, 04:03 PM
During the last decade or so, there have been four or five (if memory serves) attacks by mountain lions on humans in southern California's San Diego and Orange County. They were always ambush attacks, as that is the way mountain lions hunt. Again if memory serves, the majority of the attacks were fatal to the humans involved. I consider mountain lions to be dangerous, and I doubt if I would have a chance if one ambushed me -- which is another reason not to travel through the woods alone. On the other hand, law enforcement officers have killed mountain lions with their issue handguns. It seems that they are fairly easy to kill, much more so than, say, a grizzly.
Cordially, Jack

roscoe
November 4, 2007, 02:36 AM
I agree with all that,I was more disagreing with the

Quote:
For woods protection, the .357 wins because of superior penetration. You can get 180 and 200 grain hardcast loads from Buffalo Bore and DoubleTap that will outpenetrate anything from an autoloader, including 10mm.

Well, the Poncelot penetration quotient for the 200 grain .357 at 1200 fps is 1362.8. The 10mm at 1300 fps is 1237.2. What that quotient means in real terms is anybody's guess, but the narrower .357 penetrates better.

Not that I think that the 10mm is anything but the bees knees, and the best autoloader cartridge by far. If there were a decent DA/SA 10mm I would be the happiest man on earth.

mavracer
November 4, 2007, 08:29 AM
Well, the Poncelot penetration quotient for the 200 grain .357 at 1200 fps is 1362.8. The 10mm at 1300 fps is 1237.2. What that quotient means in real terms is anybody's guess, but the narrower .357 penetrates better.
poncelot doesn't take into account the bullets meplat if the two bullets have the same meplat there is far less affest from the differing diameters,there fore the bigger 10mm with the same meplat and more energy should in theory make up for the tiny differense and penatration will probably be about equal.
Not that I think that the 10mm is anything but the bees knees, and the best autoloader cartridge by far. If there were a decent DA/SA 10mm I would be the happiest man on earth.
Eaa witness elite stock

roscoe
November 4, 2007, 04:12 PM
Eaa witness elite stock
Well, I don't quite trust them, but I do love the CZ design.

mavracer
November 4, 2007, 05:53 PM
Well, I don't quite trust them, but I do love the CZ design.
the only other option I could suggest would be a used smith they are around and very well built.personally I don't like pushing safety up to fire.

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