Knoxville Paper Publishes Map of CCW!


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Bainx
November 3, 2007, 05:19 PM
Yes folks, it's true, the liberal media in Knoxville, TN has posted an interactive map showing the addresses of those in my state who have a handgun carry permit. mod edit - this has been demonstrated to be incorrect, so everyone calm down

http://www.wbir.com/news/local/story...9&provider=top

These jerks say their posting is in the name of research.
I have posted repeatedly that I would post the names of all of their employees and family members along with addresses and, did they have a problem with me doing this?
They have blasted [read:deleted] my postings for several hours.

Well, what do you think on this?

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zxcvbob
November 3, 2007, 05:48 PM
You should find influential politicians or local celebrities with CCW that are on the list and call them up at home. Or go knock on the door. Ask them what they carry, and how you found out about it.

Bainx
November 3, 2007, 05:53 PM
Another poster from another site fixed it for me:

http://www.wbir.com/news/maps/handguns.aspx

OK fixed

Regolith
November 3, 2007, 06:49 PM
So, they've basically published a shopping list for thieves and stalkers? ****ing idiots.

Oana
November 3, 2007, 06:54 PM
I'll give them brownie points for actually compiling the information into an interesting format and also, for NOT publishing individual permit holders' names. (Unless it's somewhere on there and I haven't found it.) They also seemed to present it *relatively* well for a paper publishing CCW's.

That said, I don't like it. Even the first names mentioned weren't necessary (8,500 James might be one thing, but 40 Ednas - you KNOW some poor woman named Edna is going to be asked about it). And the map locations - how exactly were they grouping those? It seemed to be somewhat specific, but I couldn't figure out if it was zip code, or what. I need to know that before/if I send a nasty letter. :)

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out and how readers will interpret it. Take this paragraph:

Does it work? Frankly, it's hard to say. Objective proof is hard to come by. Even with 177,881 folks carrying guns in Tennessee, it is only 3 percent of the population. The percentage of people who are a victim of violent crime annually is also quite small. And our analysis suggests that those who obtain permits don't fit the socioeconomic profile of the bulk of crime victims.

We hear anecdotal interactions of would-be criminals and the people they've targeted who happen to be carrying guns, but the appearance is that the two don't interact with great frequency.

You and I would conclude from this that people who fit the profile of the "bulk of crime victims" should be encouraged to get carry permits. OTOH, the average reader might conclude that permits aren't necessary because the "less at-risk" people don't really need them.

Snarlingiron
November 3, 2007, 07:18 PM
Why not return the favor. Post up a website with the names, addresses, and map location of all of the reporters and management of the newspaper, just in the name of research, of course. Hey, just to be thorough, why not include personal phone numbers?

obxned
November 3, 2007, 07:19 PM
"You should find influential politicians or local celebrities with CCW that are on the list and call them up at home. Or go knock on the door. Ask them what they carry, and how you found out about it." ZXCVBOB

Darn good idea!!!

Gunnerpalace
November 3, 2007, 07:30 PM
Wouldn't you have to be a complete and total idiot/moron to rob someone with a CCW?

Bainx
November 3, 2007, 07:30 PM
standby folks, I am asking WBIR hard questions and they are waffeling.
Stay tuned....

jlday70
November 3, 2007, 07:41 PM
SO what this is to me is a shopping list of where I want to live. THat would be the county with the most CCW holders..

These people think that the Permit holder are the problem, while the thugs snd criminals(who are really the problem) have no press coverage or census data.

woo18
November 3, 2007, 07:46 PM
why is it all of the sudden so interesting for these news agencies to publish all this CCW information? Especially since CCW holders have passed a background check and are law abiding citizens. What is so interesting about law abiding citizens.

Maybe they will publish the names and addresses of all licensed drivers.

Bainx
November 3, 2007, 07:49 PM
yes jlday70, you could put it that way. Please, move over here among us freedom loving citizens. You are most welcome!
Here in East Tennessee, we do not put up with a bunch of Oprah peace loving, whale embracing, idiots. We love freedom, plain and simple.
Yet, violent crime perpetrated by The Black Gangster Disciples takes place here.

stevemis
November 3, 2007, 10:48 PM
What's the harm? I didn't see any addresses or names (other than two first names). It looks like the data has been scrubbed and presented by county.

The State of North Carolina has similar statistics (number of licensees by county) available on the web. While I don't think actual permit holder information (name, address, etc) should be available to the public, I don't see anything wrong with organizing things on a map and doing some pedestrian statistical analysis on it.

Unless I'm missing something...

Rudy Kohn
November 3, 2007, 11:29 PM
If you follow a few links and reach their original article, there is a database you can open in Google Earth (or a text editor) which appears to have coordinate data for every individual permit.

http://download.gannett.edgesuite.net/wbir/news/kml/statewide.kml

The location information appears to be available. Accuracy is unknown.

stevemis
November 4, 2007, 12:23 AM
If you follow a few links and reach their original article, there is a database you can open in Google Earth (or a text editor) which appears to have coordinate data for every individual permit.

Ok, that's not cool.

hso
November 4, 2007, 12:34 AM
I don't know what ya'll are talking about.
I go to the map. I open the county. The census tracts come up. No names or addresses of HCP holders appear. What do they have on the map except statistical data that doesn't identify or lead to the identities of HCP holders?

What I do see is county by county and census tract by census tract within the counties, the relative numbers of HCP holders and the average income of the households in that census tract. What it does show is that there are lots of suburban HCP holders in TN. Lots of suburban voters. The sort of folks politicians like to get support from.

Where is the identity or individual address for TN HCP holders provided in the WBIR maps or story or discussion?

Im283
November 4, 2007, 12:48 AM
I agree with HSO. Where is all the info you are claiming to see. No names no addresses.

Basically it was a story about permit holders, pretty much a non story. I was rather dissapointed that it was not newsworthy.

The only thing of interest that I saw on the news that night or on their website was my picture. And to think this is part of my 15 minutes of fame, pretty disappointing.

strickj
November 4, 2007, 01:31 AM
lets hope the bg's reed that map and rob/break in to someone else's house!

Mtnvalley
November 4, 2007, 01:43 AM
I went so far as to download the map and open it in Google Earth, as suggested upthread. Same result, aggregated information with nothing individually identifiable. As a family with two permits in the household, I have no concerns whatsoever about the info that was printed. Evidently the specifics are available to anyone motivated enough to find out, via the "sunshine laws" regarding public records...but I think the Roanoke Times found out what sort of idea it is to print "The List". ;-)

I do have a bit of a problem with Knoxville Mayor Haslam signing on with NYC Mayor Bloomberg's "Mayors Against Illegal Guns" coalition (read up on their unethical and some say illegal tactics). I understand that several mayors across the country have actually pulled out once they learn the stunts that Bloomie is pulling; perhaps Haslam needs to know. It might speak louder if the info came from a constituent. (I don't live within his fiefdom).

OEF_VET
November 4, 2007, 01:57 AM
The Sky Is Falling! The Sky Is Falling!

Bainx, you sir, need to relax. There is nothing in the info you posted worth getting excited about. First, you inpune the reputation of the owner of this site, a man who has done more for the RKBA in this country than most; and then you resort to exaggeration and hyperbole, in order to excite the masses about a non-issue. I wish my life were as boring as yours must be, so I could get this excited about nothing.

Eightball
November 4, 2007, 02:28 AM
I don't get it. I click the link, nothing comes up. I search for it, no map.

Am I missing something?

strickj
November 4, 2007, 02:34 AM
post my addr for the world to see I have a hcp,and maybe the bg's will break into the house next door or steal the car down the street.it's kinda like the "forget the dog beware the owner with gun silhouette"you use to see all the time.I think it could be a deterrent for the masses.just don't post my name and other personal info like I'm some sex offender.I see nothing wrong with it and would welcome it.
just my 3 cents

Rudy Kohn
November 4, 2007, 09:00 AM
I stand corrected. The huge amounts of coordinate data in the text file, e.g.

-84.844365,35.310696,0

are data corresponding to polygons describing the borders between areas indicated in the map. I have examined a few of the data points, and, if you reverse the coordinates and ignore the altitude, e.g.

35.310696,-84.844365

(if you don't reverse them, you end up in Antarctica!)

they point to the borders between zip codes, or whatever boundaries are used in the map. I saw huge amounts of very specific coordinate data in the file, and assumed, since they were preceded by a "placemark" tag, that they were address data. Instead, they are actually high resolution descriptions of polygons across the surface of the earth defining the borders you see when you open the file in Google Earth.

I'm completely convinced; there's nothing remotely problematic about this. I still think CCW information shouldn't be public, but I don't think there's any reason to cry foul here.

My apologies for posting without doing enough research.

hso
November 4, 2007, 01:00 PM
Thank you, Rudy Kohn. You're one of the first to jump out of the lynch mob and let everyone know Bainx's ranting is completely off base. You also had the personal honor to point out that there was no identity information in the maps on the WBIR line. Good on you.

For EVERYONE'S information, there are NO maps or any other information from the WBIR analysis that leads anyone to the names or addresses of HCP holders in TN. NO NAMES OR ADDRESSES OF HCP HOLDERS. None. Zip. NADA!

Download the file and run it on Google Earth and see for yourselves (and think for yourselves also).

Anyone from here on out that continues to claim that identity info is available from WBIR on their analysis of distribution/concentration and income demographics for HCP holders in TN either is intentionally trying to deceive or thoughtlessly parroting those that are trying to deceive.

FYI - "Alarmed", who is the pot stirrer on the WBIR line has acknowledged that he was wrong about WBIR making the addresses or names of HCP holders available and out of line and he has apologized. After posting personal information on station personnel much of last evening.

APOLOGY OFFERED TO THE AUTHOR AND WBIR.

Upon reviewing my postings, I have found some of them to be out-of-ling and uncalled for. As I stated, I mean absolutely no malice for anyone. Its just that it seems that 98% of everything the media puts out on gun owner is negative and demeaning to us as individuals. After reviewing the article, I find it is not meant to damage me as an individual.
Please accept my sincere apology for acting like a jerk.

Im283
November 4, 2007, 01:50 PM
Where is Bainx to admit he was wrong?

peace loving I am sure there are some peace loving individuals here in TN. What is wrong with that?

Jake Jost
November 5, 2007, 05:48 PM
Hi, folks.

I'm the analyst who did the study and wrote the commentary which Oana quoted above.

Points to consider:

--Absolutely no names or addresses published.

--Rudy, HSO, I appreciate you fellas being the voice of reason.

--BainX, presumably, is the same as "Alarmed," who posted on our message boards. He posted essentially the same thing on the Firing Line message boards. "Alarmed" thought it germane to make veiled threats to my family and the families of staff members.

--We're a television station, rather than a newspaper--the NBC affiliate in Knoxville, WBIR.

--Our study really didn't have any notions of demonstrating effectiveness or lack of effectiveness of Tennessee's permit program. We saw a spike in the number of local folks seeking the permit after a high-profile double murder in which the victims apparently did not know the perpetrators. We became interested in who, in the general and non-individual sense, was making use of the program. We analyzed the program for the purpose of seeing the geographic trend, then ran socioeconomic correlations with Census info. The question it raises, which I intend to try to answer, is whether the economic split we saw is a sign of inequality in the way the program is administered. Are the permit and training fees a barrier? Why aren't the folks who traditionally would most need the permits getting them?

--I'm a patient guy, slow to anger--part of the temperament I got from my old man. I'm not going to take the veiled threats made by a few reactionary buffoons as being indicative of all or even most gun owners and enthusiasts. On the other hand, it's not really a reasonable expectation that other news folks will respond similarly. My friendly advice: consider Alarmed and BainX (if they're not the same person, though they likely are) a case study in how not to respond to the press, if you'd like to be an effective advocate. Making vague threats is likely a pretty reliable way to turn an objective or on-the-fence journalist into an anti, as you like to call them. Somebody threatens you, you're likely to hold a grudge.

--Knowing as I do that gun owners and enthusiasts are a widely-varied group in terms of make-up, it's not a reasonable expectation for everybody else to be able to prevent one person from reacting reflexively and doing something foolish. All the same, it might be a worthwhile conversation for gun folks to have. You really don't want the village idiot to lead the parade. Some of your level-headed members have done a great job assuring others that we're not out to invade their privacy, and we do appreciate it.

--You can reach me at jjost@wbir.gannett.com if you'd like to ask any additional questions or make additional comments on our story and commentary. If you are interested in seeing any of the correlation tables, I'd be happy to share them. (Do note we will not be sharing any individually specific/identifiable information.)

Regards,
--Jake, wbir.com

Sgt_nick_fury
November 6, 2007, 12:40 PM
Jake I'm more curious about the quote...

Even with 177,881 folks carrying guns in Tennessee, it is only 3 percent of the population.

what is this based on? having been born and raised in East Tennessee that figure does not seem to be remotely correct.

I can't seem to get the original article to come up from the links.....I'm just curious.

Cougfan2
November 6, 2007, 12:50 PM
Jake, thank you for a measured and reasonable response. Don't know if you are a shooter, but if you're ever out Portland Oregon way, give me a PM and I'll take you shooting. :)

Jake Jost
November 6, 2007, 07:10 PM
Hi, guys.

Cougfan: I'll let you know!

Sarge: That number is the number of currently valid permits in the state of Tennessee, as of the date of our data (April 2007), referenced with the most recent Census bureau estimate of state population. The number of folks with guns but no carry permit is likely to be much, much higher.

--Jake, wbir.com

Im283
November 6, 2007, 07:22 PM
Jake Jost says
The number of folks with guns but no carry permit is likely to be much, much higher.

The gist I see is that the people living in poorer areas of Knox seem to be on the low percentage of permits. Why don't you go to Lonsdale or N. Knoxville and seek out gun carriers who do not have permits. I am sure you all could do this by using neighborhood contacts the station surely has. I would be very interested in seeing this on the news. Finding out that middle class, white, family men make up the bulk of HCP holders was kind of a let down.

FWIW I do watch WBIR most every day for news, and Jeff Lee is a righteous dude so I believe your news to be truthful.

Oana
November 7, 2007, 02:47 AM
Thanks to Mr. Jost for sharing with us here. :)
Kudos to your station for using the information for research purposes, instead of just publishing individual permit holders' information.

K-Romulus
November 7, 2007, 10:39 AM
Thanks, Jake, for posting here. I'm sorry you had to deal with the BS from people who didn't seem to bother to even read what you had produced.

The question it raises, which I intend to try to answer, is whether the economic split we saw is a sign of inequality in the way the program is administered. Are the permit and training fees a barrier? Why aren't the folks who traditionally would most need the permits getting them?

This is a huge issue that you should definitely look at. Maybe even do a comparison of Tennesse to states that allow issuing authorities to deny permits at will (like Maryland).

hso
November 7, 2007, 11:42 PM
Jake,

The problem with the internet is that anyone can say anything about anything at any time that an outlet is made available for their ranting. Not much filtering is possible. When an idiot gets online there's no telling who's village they came from (or even if they belonged to a village in the first place).

Also, please note that the majority of folks that respond to any comment line are going to be negative because they're the folks primarily motivated to take the time to key something up. Biased sample.

I think the inequality issue about the permit fees and training costs should be explored.

Grizzly Adams
November 10, 2007, 09:24 PM
Jake,

Not all gun enthusiasts are like Bainx and not all reports/journalist are as honest as you appear to be. Please let me add my apologies to that of the others of my fellow THR members that I'm sure you will be hearing from.

Buel Adams

gunsmith
November 14, 2007, 07:40 PM
Wouldn't you have to be a complete and total idiot/moron to rob someone with a CCW?

You see, a criminal should think everyone is armed.
In Ohio a few years ago when we started getting these alerts on thr
a guy was killed and his gun taken from him, after getting his personal info
in the paper as a ccw holder.
The culprit was never caught afaik.
AMW featured a story a year or so ago about a guy that
killed a police officer, simply because he needed a gun and he knew
a cop would be armed.
A gun is not a magic talisman, you can be jumped from behind and killed BECAUSE the criminal KNOWS you have a gun.
Some psycho lefty may just want to kill a "right wing gun nut"
Indy media.org a left wing moon bat website had a member who executed a
police officer (in NorCal) just so he could post and brag about it!

I consider every newspaper that publishes names of ccw holders to have reckless disregard for the lives of the people they are affecting.

So, thanks Jake for coming on board and being so honest, but please understand , people have been killed by names being published
so some of us fight back when stuff like this happens.
Thanks for being so sporting and sorry you got caught in the crosshairs before it got straightened out.
Now...go get yerself a ccw and a cool gun!

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