Mosin-Nagant as a defense rifle


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TimboKhan
November 4, 2007, 01:08 AM
I was reading another post, and a guy said this:

Well Nolo I have three Nagants and wouldn't carry any of them in to battle to defend my country my house etc

I got to thinking about this, and I agree with him to the extent that I have better rifles to do those things, and thus choose them.

Or would I?

The Mosin has several things going for it as a defense rifle.
1. It has been used to defend countries for a long, long time. Proven
2. Rugged to an extreme.
3. Easy and cheap to purchase relatively large amounts of ammo
4. Ammo can be purchased in large lots already packaged for cacheing (sp?) away.
5. Perhaps most important, ammo is cheap enough to buy in quantities that allow for regular and frequent practice. If you don't have suitable facilities or time to reload, try seeing how much .223 ammo, 7.62x39 and 7.62x54 ammo you can buy for $50.00 right now.
6. Distinct lack of moving parts. Kinda the same thing as "rugged", but kinda not. An AK is rugged, but it has more moving parts.

I know that this topic has been brought up before, but it's a fun thing to talk about (at least for me), and so I bring it up again. I would agree that the Mosin probably isn't the best home defense rifle. Loud, overkill for caliber, unwieldy. But, if it was all I had handy or all I could afford, it would by-god get the job done! Without even going to the extreme of a TEOTWAWKI, Zombie or Meteor invasion situation, I can think of plenty of realistic situations where it would be a good choice. Not the BEST choice mind you, but a good, functional choice. Katrina immediately springs to mind. A rugged rifle in those conditions would be an absolute boon. I happen to really like the AR platform, and I am a well-known fan of the SKS, and the AK is a darn good rifle, but I think the Mosin would outshine all of them in a environmental situation like Katrina.

Anyway, thats just my opinion. I fully realize that there are better choices, and as I mentioned, I have taken advantage of those choices myself. But, I also know that if the situation turns ugly, that $100.00 rifle in my closet will be more than up to the task of keeping me alive.

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Hoppy590
November 4, 2007, 01:21 AM
there are better choices.

and while i would never feel underguned with my mosin. and its definatly number 1 if i should hear "fix bayonets"

common russian mosin is

too powerfull for HD work
too slow for close in work

too inaccurate for long range work

how ever a mosin is basicaly, at the least, a pointy stick. and a pointy stick is better than nothing.

mp510
November 4, 2007, 01:29 AM
I would much rather have a modern battle rifle for fighting against modern military or para-military type enemies- unless I intended on sticking the enemy- the Russian Mosins are very well suited for that task:rolleyes: The Finnish rifles are much more accurate, however, the 5 round capacity and bolt action mechanism are serious detractors- I could accurately let off a whole lot more ammo, accurately from a semi than any bolt in the same time frame.

In the house, any Mosin is better than NO gun. In fact, I'll go so far as to say it is better than a lot of guns- I would much rather use a Mosin than a
.22 for example. However, Mosins and any other weapon with an almost 30 inch barrel is a bitch to clear corners with- it makes a 20" AR seem like paradise. I would worry somewhat about overpenetration, however, I've read accounts of 115 9x19 hardball fired from a pistol makeing it's way through most of a house- the way many houses are built, clearing walls is very likely with almost anything.

Acheron
November 4, 2007, 01:29 AM
I agree with using the MN as a defense gun. I have two and I love them. I think that the OP hits a lot of good points. A MN can go a long time without cleaning, even if it is shooting corrosive ammo. A MN has fewer moving parts than an AR, AK, SKS, M1/M14, FAL, etc. Fewer moving parts equals fewer things that can break/wear out. Sure, an MBR is great but it doesn't do jack s**t if it's broken.

I don't think I would use a MN for HD (unless it's all I have), I would use a shotgun for that. But I do think that a MN would make a supreme SHTF rifle. My only question would be what model to use? A 91/30, M38/M44, or a Finn?

cwmcgu2
November 4, 2007, 01:31 AM
My Scout-setup M44 would be my primary defense rifle for anything but a Hollywoodesque shtf situation. Because of the cheap ammo prices with 7.62x54R I am a much better shot with it than my AR as of now. My AR would only become a better choice, at the present moment, for an unlikely situation where I was actively engaging multiple hostile targets.

DMK
November 4, 2007, 01:31 AM
There are better and more modern weapons for sure.

However, the 7.62x54R can certainly have impressive terminal effects.

the initial line of impact of the bullet was almost centered on the block... at the time of significant yawing (energy/momentum transfer), the bullet had traveled off to one side of the center of the block, thus creating a torque on the block and spinning it like a rag doll.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=292190

Novus Collectus
November 4, 2007, 01:40 AM
too powerfull for HD work
too slow for close in work

too inaccurate for long range workLower powered ammo can be loaded and someone could experiment a little and maybe use bullets likely to penetrate walls as much like using balls instead of bullets.
Hollow training ammo might be another lower powered, less penetrating option. I bet even the hollow target ammo that was commonly available a few years ago would be more powerful than most of the powerful handguns.

My M44 is more accurate than I am at 100 yards using iron sights. Some can be more than accurate enough.


However, Mosins and any other weapon with an almost 30 inch barrel is a bitch to clear corners with- it makes a 20" AR seem like paradise.I think the M38s and the M44s carbines have a 20" barrel.

TimboKhan
November 4, 2007, 01:43 AM
too powerfull for HD work
too slow for close in work

too inaccurate for long range work

how ever a mosin is basicaly, at the least, a pointy stick. and a pointy stick is better than nothing.

Here is where we disagree.

1. I agree that the Mosin is too powerful for HD work. That being said, if I am defending my home, is there really such a thing as too powerful? I know that the argument is going to be made about penetration, and while I agree that many walls are going to be penetrated, I have my own views on wall penetration. Needless to say, I think that the arguement is bunk because darn near any caliber commonly used for home defense is going to penetrate. Anyway, that opinion aside, I agree with your main point given that there are better choices.

2. Hmm. This is a tough one. Given the options available, the Mosin certainly is slower. However, I am not an operator, and I don't think I will ever have to do much close-in work, and certainly not against multiple targets. I mean, I happen to have a AR right next to my bed ready to rock, but I am not sure that I really need it. Depending on the situation I agree, I guess.

3. This is where you and I part ways completely. The Mosin is plenty capable of doing long range work, depending on what you mean by long range. I can hit reliably, with open sights, on man-sized targets out to 300 yards. It is not a "tactical" rifle, and except for fun, I will not be shooting at 1000 yards. Ever. Is it pin-point accurate? Nope. Is the accuracy good enough to get the job done? Yep. I would point out that Russian snipers would wholly disagree with you that they are nothing more than a pointy stick.


Fellows, keep in mind that I am fully aware that there are better options, and that I use them myself. I guess my whole point is that better options don't mean that this one is bad. The arguments for capacity, speed, automatic firing and all that are well and good, but many tens of thousands of people and game have fallen to this rifle. I actually do think that the argument could be made that the Mosin is comparably suited to darn near any situation that we will likely face when compared to a modern tactical rifle. Since most of us aren't snipers and won't be greenlighting shots at 700 yards, consider that the Mosin holds at least as many rounds as a tactical rifle, does not have a scope to get in the way, and is designed specifically for combat.

Hoppy590
November 4, 2007, 01:42 AM
iv always been a promotor of Mosins, anyone can search my name and the word mosin and see that

thats said. none of my MN's ( russian and chinese) are tack drivers.

is there really such a thing as too powerful

ignoring the obvious over penetration. have you ever fired a rifle in a confined space? now add the dark of night and a mosins muzzle flash. loud noises, bright lights.... familiar with how a flashbang works? im willing to bet getting up at 2, 3 am and setting off a mosin in the confines of your kitchen would be equivalant of a flashbang.

Hmm. This is a tough one. Given the options available, the Mosin certainly is slower. However, I am not an operator, and I don't think I will ever have to do much close-in work, and certainly not against multiple targets
im not an operator, and judging from your sig ( Marines 90-93) your far more qualified than me. but "engaging multiple targets" doesnt always mean breaching a door and rescueing a hostage. a quick follow up shot becomes REAL important when you find two men in your living room, the guy 20 feet from you has a knife, and the one a few feet past him has a gun... with a mosin, or almost any bolt gun. ( SMLE and k31 with practice asside) who do you shoot?

Yep. I would point out that Russian snipers would wholly disagree with you that they are nothing more than a pointy stick.
and ww1 marines would tell you the fight starts at 800 yards... i how ever am not a russian sniper or a us marine.
no real way you can justify HD at 200 yards. even in a SHTF/EOTWAWKI i dont picture myself taking shots at things farther than 150 and in that case 7.62X39 is plenty.




Lower powered ammo can be loaded and someone could experiment a little and maybe use bullets likely to penetrate walls as much like using balls instead of bullets.

but the OP was very specific about the availability of cheap ammo and not loading your own
3. Easy and cheap to purchase relatively large amounts of ammo
4. Ammo can be purchased in large lots already packaged for cacheing (sp?) away.
5. Perhaps most important, ammo is cheap enough to buy in quantities that allow for regular and frequent practice. If you don't have suitable facilities or time to reload, try seeing how much .223 ammo, 7.62x39 and 7.62x54 ammo you can buy for $50.00 right now.



i hope soem of that made sense. im tired. again. i love the Mosin. but for the roughly 100$ you could get a Hi Point carbine, or a pump gun that would serve asa far better HD gun. or an SKS wich would be a better SHTF gun

still. pointy stick better than nothing

Regolith
November 4, 2007, 03:00 AM
a quick follow up shot becomes REAL important when you find two men in your living room, the guy 20 feet from you has a knife, and the one a few feet past him has a gun... with a mosin, or almost any bolt gun. ( SMLE and k31 with practice asside) who do you shoot?

Well, since most Mosins have a bayonet...Shoot the guy with a gun and bayonet the guy with the knife....after all, a Mosin with a bayonet is essentially a freaking spear, and spears have been used to take out guys with knives for thousands of years. :neener:

But yeah, the Mosin isn't my preferred HD weapon either.

Newton
November 4, 2007, 03:45 AM
Only if it's all that you can afford.

A pump action shotgun is marginally more expensive and infinitely better suited to the task.

It also won't kill one of your neighbors in addition to the goblin you catch sneaking into your bedroom.

JWarren
November 4, 2007, 05:18 AM
Katrina immediately springs to mind.


Went through it, and I'd much rather have had something other than a Mosin.


In Katrina, you were far more likely to need a good handgun than a long gun-- and then you are talking about a long gun that is-- well -- LOOOONG.


Your mileage would go further with a shorter carbine -- you would be tossing it in your vehicle quite a bit.

Semi-auto is much preferred to a bolt gun. There's a reason that we went from the 1903 Springfield to the Garand, after all.


In the aftermath of something like Katrina, you won't be sitting around waiting for something to happen. You will have a lot of work to do. That means moving around a lot. I learned that even with something short and fairly light (AK), I still just didn't have the ability to lug that around while I was removing debris and trees. It stayed in the Jeep.

I can't even imagine attempting to lug a mosin around in the same circumstances.

And then there are the times you have to leave home. You will want something you can put in the cab of a vehicle. That same firearm is one that you need to be able to get out and wield in a reasonable amount of time and with little effort. A short or folding carbine is much easier.



As said before, Anything is better than nothing.



I think that a lot of people have a misconception of what the aftermath of a natural disaster will be. That's natural and understandable if you haven't been there-- but listen to those that have if you want to get a more realistic understanding of what you may expect so that you can (hopefully) be in even a better situation than they were if you ever face such a thing.



-- John

FieroCDSP
November 4, 2007, 05:38 AM
I'm the proud owner of a Mosin M44 and a recently purchased 91/30. With the cops five blocks down the street, were I to ever have to fire that thing in the dark of night, the cops would be here before the guy would get back up if I missed. I agree that it would likely be akin to a flashbang or concussion grenade, and one or both parties would probably disoriented. That would be the best time to stick the guy.

It's better than nothing, but there's a whole lot between the best for HD and nothing.

PzGren
November 4, 2007, 06:07 AM
One of the things that make me wonder, is how rarely I see people at the gun ranges that I frequent firing rifles from combat positions. To shoot a bolt action standing takes a little more practice than shooting an M4, it also requires more strength.
The only Mosin we have in the house is a Suomi M39 and it is heavier than a K98k.
I feel fine with the Mauser K98k, can shoot it well, and during the hurricanes, I had it and about 100 rounds on stripper clips ready despite having an HBAR AR, an M4, an AK, Mini 14, and having had an SKS at the time.

I would not rule a Mosin M38 out, either. But any of my remaining rifles, or shotguns, could do the job, as long as I can remember my training in the 173. PzGrenBtl:)

baz
November 4, 2007, 08:08 AM
I would like to have a couple on hand for shtf to put in the hands of people who might not have had the foresight to be armed themselves, but who I would trust to help out in such a situation. With a couple of MN's I could arm four people. ;)

wcwhitey
November 4, 2007, 08:35 AM
I had to think about this one for a little while. My answer is no to all of the above. I picked up my first M44 a few weeks ago. Although I am impressed with the condition of the gun and the ability to buy cheap ammo my impression is based on the fact that it is a $100 gun. Mine shot 3 1/2" inch groups at 100 yards, not bad for a Mosin, but if it were a Mauser or 1903a3 I would be disappointed.
I have an AR, M1A and several other Milsurp bolt guns, I would go to any them before the Mosin. One thing I think that they fill the bill for perfectly is cache. For that price they make a great cabin gun, truck gun or back-up rifle. In the closet in case of emergency with a spam can of ammo.
They are fun to shoot because to the recoil and blast. All the reasons why I would not want to shoot one inside my home. Bill

Dave Markowitz
November 4, 2007, 09:22 AM
The first rule of gunfighting is have a gun. That said there are better choices out there if for some reason you are restricted to a bolt action rifle.

The primary attributes which make the Mosin-Nagant desireable are (a) low price for most variants, (b) relatively cheap ammo, and (c) peasant-proof ruggedness and reliability.

For defensive use they have some significant limitations: (a) the bolt is stiff and not smooth to operate, (b) the magazine is hard to load or top off rapidly, even with good stripper clips, (c) safety manipulation is awkward at best.

If one must use a bolt action rifle for defense the best choices are Lee-Enfield, either a No.4, No.5, or SMLE. The action is smooth, it holds 10 rounds, the sights on the No.4 and 5 are much better, and the safety is easy to manipulate. A Mauser (this includes the US M1903 and M1917) would be next best after an Lee-Enfield.

FWIW, I have four Mosin-Nagants, so I have first-hand experience with the design: Finn m/1891 and m/1939, and Soviet M1891/30 and M1938.

Novus Collectus
November 4, 2007, 09:51 AM
a quick follow up shot becomes REAL important when you find two men in your living room, the guy 20 feet from you has a knife, and the one a few feet past him has a gun... with a mosin, or almost any bolt gun. That's what the bayonet is for. :D

but the OP was very specific about the availability of cheap ammo and not loading your own I understand about cheap ammo, but that would be for plinking I assume because not many people are going to be firing so many shots in a HD situation where they would have to start worrying about their ammo supply and ammo budget dwindling.
I offered the option of reloading as an alternate possibility, the OP can take it or leave it.

i hope soem of that made sense. im tired. again. i love the Mosin. but for the roughly 100$ you could get a Hi Point carbine, or a pump gun that would serve asa far better HD gun. or an SKS wich would be a better SHTF gunIn some states, cities or districts it is not easy to get a handgun (or cheap handguns) due to laws or available FFLs, but real easy to get a rifle.

MassMark
November 4, 2007, 10:01 AM
M44's are excellent Cache Weapons....As to using them for HD, I think it would be slightly insane, unless you slip your Peltors and RayBans on with them. If not, your first shot better be on the nickel, as I'm at least a little sure a follow up in a dark room would be a little iffy....

Avenger
November 4, 2007, 10:15 AM
Would I use a 91/30 for home defense? It wouldn't be my first choice. If I had to use any Mosin, it'd be an M38. Shorter barrel, less weight. The Soviets only put a bayo on the M44 because they realized that you don't always happen to have a PPsh 41 or 43 with you.

If I fired my Mosin inside a hallway at night with no hearing protection.....well, I think I'd rather have to face the flash-bang! Besides, repainting the scorched walls would be a pain.

hank327
November 4, 2007, 11:23 AM
It would be better than nothing. If I had to use a bolt action for social purposes,
my first choice hands down would be a Lee-Enfield. But if a M-N was all I had, I would make do.

Hoppy590
November 4, 2007, 12:31 PM
In some states, cities or districts it is not easy to get a handgun (or cheap handguns) due to laws or available FFLs, but real easy to get a rifle.

i know, im in one of those states ( MA)
i suggested a hi point carbine. its a long gun and as such easier to get in most states

run about 100-150 used like, 175 new. 9mm or 40 SW. 10 shot magazines. short, light. semi automatic. deadly accurate damn reliable

WinchesterAA
November 4, 2007, 02:11 PM
to say it plainly..

The m44 is outstanding for ranges from 0-10 feet, and 50-900 feet.

in between 10 and 50 it does OK if you're quick with it. Probably the "best" choice for an unknown situation much like any bolt gun would be (IMO atleast).

I love it for it's ability to remove the need to see your target.

DnPRK
November 4, 2007, 02:39 PM
Look at a Mosin for what it was designed to be. In the 1890s, Russian conscripts were not known for markmanship. However, every boy grew up learning how poke things with a long stick. Put a bayonet on the end of that long stick and you have a Mosin. Volley fire and bayonet charges were the tactics of the day.

I don't think I would attempt to defend my home with volley fire and a bayonet charge.

ROMAK IV
November 4, 2007, 03:16 PM
Personally, I feel the Moisin Nagant is the ultimate defensive rifle. While not the perfect choice, it is quite good for just about anything. Most objections are quite unreasonable, I think.

First, they are extremely cheap, and the great majority have been rearsenaled at the very least. Condition ranges from good to excellent, not poor to good. I found an M-44 that in spite of the date, is as god as new.

This has several implications, all of them important: First, just about anyone can afford to own one or even a dozen. This is less than anything else, even your regular pump shotgun. Second, the rifle is non-threatening, even with a long folding bayonet. If guns are banned, this is going to be the last one to get picked up, that's for sure. It's the quintessential Saturday Night Special rifle, except that it doesn't break, it isn't used in crimes, and it's cheap in price, but not cheaply made. Third, being cheap in price, the rifle can be used without worry of being stolen or seized by police as much as would be the case if it was rally pricey. Sure, a criminal could steal one, but he isn't going to use it in a crime, and he isn't going to get much for it with a fence.

The other concerns about noise and over penetration are easily remedied. Being a 30 caliber, most brakes and flash supressors will fit or can easily be adapted to a MN, I have seen them. You can tame the recoil and the fireball at the same time, though not much can be done for the noise. The short range frangible ammunition is still out there, I used to but it for about $2 for twenty. try getting Glasers or other frangible amunition for that price.

Accuracy? How accurate do you have to be? The Soviets used them as very effective Sniper Rifles. It is a bolt action, but once you have solved the sticky bolt problem, it isn't that slow of an action. The Enfield is said to be faster, but i think that was more of a training issue. Mopisns don't scope well for the most part, and the recoil, especially for the carbines would be too much for light framed people. I find it stout, but not too bad, if I don't fire it too many times at once.

I happen to live in a semi-rural area and don't hesitate to grab my M-44 to investigate unnatural noises and possibly dangerous animals. There are always coyotes, and the possibility of wild dogs, but there is also the danger of various rabid animals. I don't, but I could leave the MN loaded, without worry of something braking. While using one for HD in an apartment complex might be a bit crazy, suburban settings aren't out of the question. Drive by shootings are done with automobiles, and at the very least, tagging one with 30 caliber holes in the trunk, would aid in identification of the perpetrators.

I'm very proud of my M-44, which I hand picked out of over a dozen. I floated the barrel and using the rifle in the manner of a scout rifle, I hit 4 inch square cut 2x4's every time at about 20 yards.

To summarize, the best HD firearm is one that is there and ready to use. There are thousands of MN's out there, plenty for everyone, with still the cheapest amunition, most handgun calibers as well, with the exception of 22lr. Nearly everyone can afford one.

TimboKhan
November 4, 2007, 03:17 PM
If indeed firing the Mosin inside my home would be like setting off a flashbang, wouldn't that take care of the other guy pretty well?

I agree that it's not the best HD, and a 870 is one of the many options available that would be a better choice.

David Fortier wrote an article a while back in which he compared the Mosin to the K98, and one of the things that he tested was how many well-aimed rounds/minute he could fire. The Mosin averaged 22 shots a minute (the K98 averaged 21), which means that he was getting an aimed shot off roughly every 2-3 seconds. Not that super, but thats a quite a bit faster than I think some of you are giving the rifle credit for.

Playing devils advocate, the use of the bayonet isn't quite as big of a joke as it seems if there is more than one person in your house. Massad Ayoob has pointed out on various occasions that close in shots might be necessary, and some of those shots might be close enough where bits of body goo would be so prevalent as to jam up an auto. If my attackers are that close, the bayonet out be nice. The mosin also makes a much better war club in general than virtually any other rifle.

As far as light ammo goes, I actually do have several hundred rounds of this wierd reduced recoil ammo that I purchased at Jax Surplus in Fort Collins. It's more expensive than ball, but it was still only $2.75/20 rounds. It is actually very pleasant to shoot, and very accurate within 100 yards. Anyway, I would tell you more about it, but I actually don't know any more about it! It comes wrapped in plain paper, and just says "reduced recoil" on it. It feels very light in the hand.

On one final note, my AR is definitely my go-to rifle for HD/SHTF/Recreational purposes. It's a nice little carbine thats quick and accurate, I feel comfortable using it in a HD situation (although it's gonna penetrate just as much as anything else), and I like it's versatility when it comes to irons or optics. My secondary rifle is a 03-A3. Smooth action, good sights, good round. It is heavy, but the trade off is great accuracy in a rifle with a common round. I also have a couple of SKS rifles, one of which is pimped out with the T-6 stock from TAPCO. Also, an 870. Those are all of the non-handgun options that I personally own and would use before the Mosin.

M44's are excellent Cache Weapons
Aside from the fun debate (and it has been fun for me) this is where I really do think the Mosin truly is superior to any other commonly available rifle. You can easily put away a ton of ammo and a couple rifles for less than the cost of one "Tactical" rifle. I literally mean a ton, too. If you spent $1000.00 bucks on 7.62x54, I think you would essentially have a lifetime supply, and my guess is that it would weigh well over a ton, lol! Anyway, the only other caliber that equals the Mosin in this regard is the .22.

KiltedClaymore
November 4, 2007, 03:51 PM
besides, when fired inside or at close range, the mosin makes a handy flame thrower! and the effects of firing a m91/30 in a confined area wouldnt be that bad. THE CARBINES on the otherhand are a menace! i know this from experiance. long story short, my friends and i were hiking and we took a shortcut under a highway thru one of those big, and i mean BIG, drainage pipes. not a great idea, but it ment we didnt have to worry about getting flattened by a truck. we walked about 10 feet in and turned a corner. we came face to face with a coyote that had the same shortcut idea as us. I shot it with my m-38. we were blind and deaf for the next 15 minutes:cuss::banghead::cuss::banghead:

lee n. field
November 4, 2007, 04:04 PM
Downsides:


Five shot magazine (SKS got 10, Enfield got 10, AK got 30+)
stripper clips -- anybody got Mosin strippers? Please?? Anybody??
slow and clumsy to cycle the bolt or safety
the muzzle blast from a carbine will knock your a** over, deafen you and set fire to the grass around your foxhole
accuracy is a crapshoot. Mine has patterns, not groups.


If you want one, by all means get one. If that's what you got when the invading French hordes come, that's what you got.

wnycollector
November 4, 2007, 04:15 PM
I love ALL of my M/N's...but for home defense I would rather have a nice pump shotgun or if need be my SKS.

jpwilly
November 4, 2007, 04:28 PM
I made that comment on another thread but was referring to the overwhelming number of better rifles that could be used for defending home and country. If all I had was an M44 than that's what I would use. But a Lee Enfield would be a better choice for a bolt battle rifle and almost any semi auto centerfire or even a lever action would be far better than most bolt actions...Ect Ect. On a budget a Siaga or SKS for example. My Nagants are fun rifles and I shoot them often but I would prefer not to have to fight with one!

KiltedClaymore
November 4, 2007, 04:38 PM
hey lee n. field, i got about 20-something stripper clips. not that hard to find.

TimboKhan
November 4, 2007, 06:23 PM
Yeah, I have a gallon freezer bag full of stripper clips. Not hard to find at all...

grimjaw
November 4, 2007, 06:37 PM
1. It has been used to defend countries for a long, long time. Proven

You could have said that in 1950, but the Mosin Nagant has not been the front line battle rifle for any military for at least 30 years, probably closer to 50 years.

2. Rugged to an extreme.

So is a tire iron, but I'm not using one to change out the wheels on a race car in the Indy 500. There are other bolt action military rifles that are close to if not as rugged as the Mosin Nagant, and they have better sights, safeties, magazine capacity, etc.

I love the Mosin Nagant, but luckily it doesn't have to be my only choice.

jm

Vaarok
November 4, 2007, 06:42 PM
The mosin is outclassed by any and all semiautomatics. I would not and cannot recommend it as a grab-first rifle. That said, for defensive use at moderate range, it's still a good rifle.

Deer Hunter
November 4, 2007, 06:46 PM
If you are comfortable with it, go ahead. it's no less cumbersome than a pump action shotgun or an semi-automatic gun.

Cosmoline
November 4, 2007, 06:51 PM
You could do worse. I've often used a Mosin for protection, and like to have one handy. Here are some points in the Mosin's favor:

--The design has been provein in every major conflict since 1891 and most of the minor conflicts, and that they're STILL in the field today in Iraq, Afghanistan and in countless little uprisings and disputes.

--While many of the wartime Soviet production rifles are far from accurate, there is nothing inherently inaccurate about the design or the cartridge. Most of the world's best snipers used Mosins--some without a scope. You can find accurate Finnish surplus rifles fairly easily and take some measures to squeeze accuracy out of a Soviet.

--The design has a very high tolerance of dirt, grime and substandard ammunition.

--The safety, while poorly appreciated by the weak wristed Americans, is actually one of the best ever developed. It's exceedingly safe and does not rely on small parts that can give way in a fall. And it can be turned on and off with no "clicks." This is one reason I love the Mosin as a field rifle up here in AK. I've dropped rifles before and no doubt I'll drop them again. If I'm going around the thickets with something in the chamber and slip, I don't want the safety to fail the old drop test. I've had a Mosin fly out of my hands, do a double 360 and land butt-first on the rocks of a stream below the bridge where I took a pratfall. The rifle was undamaged and the safety stayed engaged.

--The receiver is at least as strong as a Mauser '98.

--The ammo is widely available in surplus lots and is still in production in many nations.

--For security the bolt can be removed in seconds and doubles as a very nasty steel knuckle in close combat. This feature makes the Mosin particularly useful as a truck gun. Just pop the bolt out and stick it in your pocket. If anyone sees it the thing looks so weird very few will recognize it as a rifle part. It looks like some part to a steam engine.

the Mosin Nagant has not been the front line battle rifle for any military for at least 30 years, probably closer to 50 years.

If you mean among the nations that grace the pages of Jane's defense manuals then you're right. But among the people we fight these days, the Mosin is still a real player even if they like to waive AK's in front of the cameras. Our own allies have also used them, from the nascent government in Afghanistan to Iraqi security forces. They work, which in a pinch is the most important thing you can ask of any firearm.

lee n. field
November 4, 2007, 07:02 PM
hey lee n. field, i got about 20-something stripper clips. not that hard to find.

Yeah, I have a gallon freezer bag full of stripper clips. Not hard to find at all...

I recall that Oleg was looking for some a while back, and coming up very short.

Cosmoline
November 4, 2007, 07:10 PM
we came face to face with a coyote that had the same shortcut idea as us. I shot it with my m-38. we were blind and deaf for the next 15 minutes

This is one reason I favor long Mosins, and long rifles in general, over carbines in full power cartridges. If I have to shoot my M91 at night with no ear protection, I know from experience the ear damage will be tolerable and there won't be much flash. I think the advantage of the short barrel gets exaggerated. They're a pain to carry slung with that extra long thing sticking up and getting snagged, but if you're not on a forced march with one or fighting through the ruins of Berlin, the extra few inches don't really interfere with use. I wouldn't want to clear houses with one, but if you're hunkering down in your room when an intruder is poking around there's something very satisfying about having a monster like that in hand leveled at the door, knowing you're going to win the ensuing fight unless he gets extremely lucky or has an RPG.

jpwilly
November 4, 2007, 07:35 PM
I'm with Cosmoline on this one the 91/30 barrel was designed to allow the powder to burn completely. The result is very little muzzle flash, recoil, and hearing loss!

Yet another reason why I'm enjoying my recent addition to the 7.62x54R collection...my Romanian PSL!

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p38/jpwilly/PSL008_sm.jpg

tinygnat219
November 4, 2007, 08:49 PM
Nope. POOR choice for Self-defense. If you are looking for a cheap rifle, buy an SKS, or spend the 200 bucks on a used Remmy 870 which is a MUCH better Self-Defense weapon.

KiltedClaymore
November 4, 2007, 08:59 PM
I recall that Oleg was looking for some a while back, and coming up very short.

Oleg must not have good scrounging skills :evil:

Deer Hunter
November 4, 2007, 09:14 PM
For reproductions, Classicarms.us has some brass ones that work just fine. Tapco was selling some Tikka stripper clips a while ago. I stocked up.

Hoppy590
November 4, 2007, 09:56 PM
http://www.tickbitesupply.com/mos.html
tikkas for 1$ each

KiltedClaymore
November 4, 2007, 10:13 PM
i got mine at a gunshow. original steel clips in packs of 20 N.I.B. for $10.

TimboKhan
November 4, 2007, 11:19 PM
If you are looking for a cheap rifle, buy an SKS, or spend the 200 bucks on a used Remmy 870 which is a MUCH better Self-Defense weapon

I'm not looking, but I also don't think that the shotgun is the be-all, end-all of SD weapons. While very effective, they are not as easy to use as people seem to think that they are. Except for some very specific tactical situations, I would much rather have a rifle over anything else.

i got mine at a gunshow. original steel clips in packs of 20 N.I.B. for $10.

I think that is exactly what I paid for mine, although I also have some brass ones that work pretty well. The funny thing is, I hardly ever use them, preferring to just load single rounds.

You could have said that in 1950, but the Mosin Nagant has not been the front line battle rifle for any military for at least 30 years, probably closer to 50 years.

Aside from what Cosmoline said, I would add that even if it had not been used since 1950, it would still be a proven combat design. It was used, with great success, in a few different wars, thus it is proven.

mp510
November 5, 2007, 12:13 AM
stripper clips -- anybody got Mosin strippers? Please?? Anybody??
I use the brass ones that guy from PA sells on Gunbroker. They work pretty well. However, loading more than 3 rounds from a clip is a less than smoothe operation- it's very doable, and faster than loading them into the mag singly- just not smoothe and not as fluid as I would like.

grimjaw
November 5, 2007, 12:31 AM
But among the people we fight these days, the Mosin is still a real player even if they like to waive AK's in front of the cameras.

Then I hope I am never in the position of the people we fight. You'd have to be in pretty dire straits to be forced to use (against today's US military) a five shot fixed magazine bolt action rifle produced circa WW2. They may fight, but they don't win.

It was used, with great success, in a few different wars, thus it is proven.

Proven in what way, exactly? Swords are a "proven" combat design, but no one is advocating using those. In the aftermath of a natural disaster like Katrina, why would one seek out combat? If the SHTF I'm not fitting the next stripper clip, I'm getting the @#$* out of Dodge.

I wouldn't toss the Mosin Nagant aside to use my bare hands, but neither would I continue to use it if superior tools were available. I fail to see where a Mosin Nagant is head and shoulders above the pack. Not the design itself, but these $50-100 run-of-the-mill versions you're talking about. I agree you could do worse, but you can also easily have better.

jm

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 03:11 AM
They're a pain to carry slung with that extra long thing sticking up and getting snagged, but if you're not on a forced march with one or fighting through the ruins of Berlin, the extra few inches don't really interfere with use

...or taking shortcuts under highways.....man my ears are still in hiding from the blast of that shoulder-cannon bouncing off the metal walls of the drainage pipe! but in all seriousness, i wouldnt take a full sized m91/30 anywhere but the range. unless it was the only gun on hand and i held the high ground against a distant enemy. i say this because i take my mosin out in the boondocks of AZ exploring and it can, and has, become very narrow very fast. a full length rifle could make it impossible to advance, retreat, or even restrict basic body motions, leaving you in a bit of a sticky wicket mate.

TimboKhan
November 5, 2007, 10:22 AM
Proven in what way, exactly? Swords are a "proven" combat design, but no one is advocating using those. In the aftermath of a natural disaster like Katrina, why would one seek out combat? If the SHTF I'm not fitting the next stripper clip, I'm getting the @#$* out of Dodge.

Well, proven to be durable. Proven to be able to take the harsh elemental beatings that life on the Russian steppes provides. The cartridge is proven to be a man-stopper and a game-getter. Thats how it is proven.

Hey, I know there are better tools available. Read through my posts and I say that almost every time. But, for not a whole lot dollars, I think that you can put together a emergency rifle kit that will serve you well. All of you guys against it have made good arguments (except for cost. Your going to poo-poo something because it's inexpensive?), but the more I think about it, the more I think that guys like Cosmoline and myself are geniuses:neener:

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 10:31 AM
hey, let them buy more expencive rifles! means more cheap guns are even cheaper, so i can buy more for me to "butcher" :evil:

Acheron
November 5, 2007, 11:49 AM
Sometimes I think that people get so wrapped up in the tacticoolness of modern rifles that they forget the value and rugged reliability of good old fashioned steel and wood.

As has been said before, there are better rifles out there. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't appreciate and use the one you have. Let me put it this way: Sure there are better cars out there than my Honda, but that doesn't mean that I'm not going to drive it simply because there is something better.

In the end I think it comes down to respect. All we MN-lovers want is for people to understand that this is still a capable tool and has defended hearth and home for 116 years and counting. The MN may not be the best rifle ever made, but it still has its place and its usefulness. Whatever happened to respecting your elders?

foghornl
November 5, 2007, 12:20 PM
I can think of a few things that my M-44 does well....

With the right (or wrong!) ammo, it is a real "Blast" can start a campfire 30 yds away with the fireball (HA! not really, but does have a lot of Flash)

That steel buttplate is good for tenderizing tough cuts of meat....place a steak between rifle & shoulder...BANG!

Can fend off a couple of Baddies with the bayo while stuffing in another 5 rounds via the stripper clip...

Probably not the best first choice as a HD/SD rifle, but does have a lot of uses. Now, if you are the guy up in the tower, filling in the gaps in defenses, yeah a decent choice.

silverlance
November 5, 2007, 12:36 PM
fail to see where a Mosin Nagant is head and shoulders above the pack. Not the design itself, but these $50-100 run-of-the-mill versions you're talking about.

It is head and shoulders above the pack when you have ten guys with one mosin each vs one guy with a DPMS AR. you can afford to arm a small militia when each rifle is $59.

Further, you can afford to reload this ammo should the SHTF. all you need is an 8lb jug of win748, a lee loader kit, and a couple boxes of .311 bullets (or if you are really cool, a crucible and molds)

The mosin, as someone else said, is quite good at 1-10', and from 50-900'. Probably not your crappy big5 (like durnhams) special, but a good quality mosin, not even necessarily a Finn, can do well.

The mosin had a purpose - it was built for lined-up trench & volley combat. As such, it is very good for two things - defending a line against an enemy vector that you know is encroaching (think a bunch of guys behind a concrete wall, camped out for two days), or attacking en masse against a concentrated position.

in each of these the mosin shooter attempts to position himsel fso that he fires the first shot - which means that the advantage of the semiauto is thereby negated. a 200 grain bullet will certainly take the fight out of most folks.

further, think about home defense. lets say that youve got your whole family inside the master bedroom, NRA-style. the BGs are pounding down your door. you've got your Finn M39 with bayonet fixed (yes, you are rich in this fantasy and can afford an M39 bayonet). the first guy comes through the shreds of your door - BOOM! okay, scatch one. the bullet tears through the BG without pause and continues on until it hits dirt because you had the forethought to not aim up. the second BG wears body armor. no problem - 200grains of full metal jacket, steel core Czech silvertip zips right through that too. the last one comes in and... your rifle jams. yes, this is not supposed to happen, but it does, just as it can with any semiauto.

no problem either - you flip your grip over on your rifle (the grip is expressly designed to be used as a spear handle) and charge your doorway, skewering the last BG as he tries to backpedal through the doorway. you execute the lunge perfectly, stepping in hard, twisting, then stepping back out.

as the smoke clears, you can hear russian bells of the 1812 overture clanging in your head..

okay, i got carried away.

Cosmoline
November 5, 2007, 12:48 PM
You'd have to be in pretty dire straits to be forced to use (against today's US military) a five shot fixed magazine bolt action rifle produced circa WW2. They may fight, but they don't win.

It depends what you mean by "win." A Mosin can kill a soldier, and every one they kill is a victory. These guys don't generally hang around for face-to-face fighting. They like to cap off a round or two and run like crazy, letting the nearby civies take the brunt of the counterattack. Surely this isn't news to you. If they aren't using the Mosin they're often using an SVD clone in 54R.

Proven in what way, exactly?

Russo-Japan, the Great War's trenches, the Russian revolution, Talvisota, the partisan uprisings, Moscow, Stalingrad, the Ostfront, Berlin, Chinese Civil War, Korea, Vietnam, Soviet-Afghan, US-Afghan etc. What more do you want? The Mosin is one of the most battle proven war rifles ever made. It's literally been through the worst fighting in human history and has an excellent track record. There's no denying it's taken more of a back seat as the SKS and AK have taken on the brunt of the fighting, but it's still out there. You can see them popping up in weapons caches and in the hands of fighters on both sides.

Funderb
November 5, 2007, 12:55 PM
I would probably not go for a mosin if someone were breaking into my home.
I would have the rifle on my back, and would be sporting a pistol in my hand.
While some may prefer the close quarters, near hand to hand combat, I'd much rather keep my distance. As for the mosin being inaccurate, if you have shot one, and think that it is..
1. You bought one that had no bore left.
2. You are a miserable shot.
3. If you shot once and missed that does not mean the rifle is inaccurate, it is a very uncomfortable rifle to those children who shoot AR's.

And the term "accurate" does not really apply. Rifles are instruments of PRECISION, ACCURACY is the shooter's part of the equation.
Precision > Accuracy, and this is a constant.

So yeah, I'd have the mosin out. And maybe a 1911.
What else do you need?
Remember, more bullets in the mag does not make you more accurate.

Cosmoline
November 5, 2007, 01:04 PM
i wouldnt take a full sized m91/30 anywhere but the range.

It makes a surprisingly nice trail rifle. THe 91/30 and M-91 are still my favorite bear rifles and next to the CZ-452 brought in the most small game when I was off grid. I prefer an over-the shoulder balanced carry or having it slung across my chest. But I can certainly see why you wouldn't want one across your back on an ATV or for that matter in a tank. And I did bean a guy with mine by accident when I was riding the bike with a Mosin slug across my back. He was drunk but he still noticed.

grimjaw
November 5, 2007, 01:24 PM
You can see them popping up in weapons caches and in the hands of fighters on both sides.

If Lee Enfields and .303 were as available and cheap as Mosin Nagants, I suspect you would not see the same proliferation.

jm

Funderb
November 5, 2007, 01:29 PM
if any rifle were as cheap, AND as effective as mosin nagants, you would have a different scenario.


(and, not or.)

Hoppy590
November 5, 2007, 01:39 PM
If Lee Enfields and .303 were as available and cheap as Mosin Nagants

in areas like Afghanistan, they are extremely popular. and just cause something here in the US is expensive doesnt mean its not cheap and plentiful in the hot spots.

lots of SMLE in former british controlled areas, which a was a large part of the world. Africa, Middle East, India

the soviets were just more... giving. when it came to small arms

ArmedBear
November 5, 2007, 01:58 PM
The Mosin is one of the most battle proven war rifles ever made. It's literally been through the worst fighting in human history

Yup.

10.7 million Soviet soldiers died in WW II, most of them with Mosins in their hands.

Not sure what their presence in battle proves about their effectiveness in battle, other than that a Russian Winter is a more effective weapon against enemy infantry than any firearm ever was.

On Saturday, a friend put a plastic baggie with a heavy steel part in my hands. I looked at it, and he said, "It's a muzzle brake for a Mosin. I knew a guy who machined a bunch of them, and I found it when I was cleaning up my machine shop. Here you go." It's enormous, but I can't wait to see if it makes an M38 more pleasant to shoot. It can't make it less pleasant, anyway. I'll probably double up on hearing protection.:)

Hoppy590
November 5, 2007, 02:01 PM
10.7 million Soviet soldiers died in WW II, most of them with Mosins in their hands.

Not sure what their presence in battle proves about their effectiveness in battle, other than that a Russian Winter is a more effective weapon against enemy infantry than any firearm ever was.

and the soviets only gained enough ground to bury thier dead at the hands of Finnish Mosins. many germans died with mausers in thier hands, many americans with M1's and a crap load of japanese with Arisaka's

the mosin is a damn fine weapon. russian deaths are due to the human wave mentality and fear of suggesting anything to your superiors

Cosmoline
November 5, 2007, 02:04 PM
The Mosin was not to blame for the Red Army's reliance on costly human wave assaults. The Finns, who used more modern combat methods, also relied on the Mosin with great success. I'm talking about the RIFLES, so unless you're seriously claiming those millions died because the Mosins failed I don't see that it undercuts the rifle's reputation.

a Russian Winter is a more effective weapon against enemy infantry than any firearm ever was.

Also, "the Russian Winter" didn't win WWII. That's an old myth popularized during the Cold War as a propaganda tool against the Soviets. The mud and rains helped slow the German advance, but it would certainly have rolled over Berlin, Stalingrad and points east if it hadn't been for fresh reserves and a determined defense. Also, the winter didn't drive the Germans back to Berlin or take the capital. Besides, the "cold" wasn't that cold. The wetness, mud and muck were a bigger problem than actually freezing to death. It was certainly nothing like the Winter War. For me it would be shorts weather ;-)

Mr White
November 5, 2007, 02:08 PM
An M38 or M44 is the closest most of us will ever get to owning an actual flamethrower but they may not be your best choice for HD.

You: Standing over charred remains of would-be intruder with M44 in your hands.

Cop: You were justified in killing him, but we're gonna have to take you in for trying to cook him!

ArmedBear
November 5, 2007, 02:13 PM
russian deaths are due to the human wave mentality

...which is exactly the strategic philosophy that led to the Russians being armed with Mosins, and the mentality that's expressed above:

It is head and shoulders above the pack when you have ten guys with one mosin each vs one guy with a DPMS AR.

Lemme tellya what... I'm not going to be joining any militia led by someone with that sort of strategic philosophy. No American force has ever succeeded by volunteering to be cannon fodder, from the French and Indian War to Iraq.

The Mosin wasn't to blame for the strategy. It was, however, the tool chosen to execute the suicidal strategy.

In WW II, 407,000 Americans were killed, many with Garands in their hands. That would be about 25:1, or about the difference in rate of fire between the Garand and the Mosin.

Now I'm not suggesting that correlation implies causation. But a Mosin a "damn fine weapon" by any modern standard? I mean, the Brown Bess helped sustain a vast empire, too, but I wouldn't want to face one guy with a modern weapon if I had 20 with muskets.

And while millions of Germans were killed, the Allies carpet-bombed them day and night for a long time. That wasn't a test of infantry effectiveness, exactly.

Cool collectible? Sure. Cheap? Yes. Durable? Yes. Relevant in the modern military context? Please!

Cosmoline
November 5, 2007, 02:20 PM
which is exactly the strategic philosophy that led to the Russians being armed with Mosins, and the mentality

I'm not sure where you got that idea. The other powers also relied on bolt action rifles of similar parameters during the time period, and the Soviets had plenty of full and semi auto firearms to fill out a rifle squad's arsenal esp. as the war developed.

In WW II, 407,000 Americans were killed, many with Garands in their hands. That would be about 25:1, or about the difference in rate of fire between the Garand and the Mosin.

You can't possibly be serious. We fought a very different war and had a very different socio-economic system in place. Giving credit to the Garand for the difference in casualty rates is complete claptrap. You don't judge a weapon system by the outcome of the war or the methods used by the generals. You judge it by how it actually performs in the hand under adverse conditions. The Mosin has proven itself. Maybe we had better generals than they did who placed higher value on our soldiers' lives, but that's another issue.

Other than suppressive fire ability, what exactly is this vast advantage you're seeing for a semiauto over a Mosin or similar war rifle home defense?

ArmedBear
November 5, 2007, 02:23 PM
The wetness, mud and muck were a bigger problem than actually freezing to death.

Same difference. Weather and logistics were the Soviets best weapons. The Germans would not have rolled over the Soviet Union, when they were running out of supplies. My uncle was there, BTW, a conscripted Austrian (as in, put on this uniform or your family all dies). When the SHTF, he turned his Mauser on his own CO, who was about to abandon his troops, and took the train out of there just in time.

Furthermore, the Russians did mount a determined defense. I never meant to diminish that. That defense was very costly in human lives, though.

The Mosin was never meant as a weapon that would do much to help keep an individual soldier alive, any more than the Brown Bess was. It was made for large-scale offensive use, as determined by the Russian strategy of the time.

That's one reason why I wouldn't choose it for self-defense, if I had a choice.

AtticusThraxx
November 5, 2007, 02:23 PM
That there's three pages of comments about Mosin-Nagant as a home defense weapon tickles the heck out of me. Look if you need to defend your home and all you have is a MN, fine. But you'd better be saving your pennies for a loud, light-sleeping dog and a 12ga pump. If your serious.

azredhawk44
November 5, 2007, 02:29 PM
I love my 91/30.

It has yet to fail to fire or fail to eject/extract.

I am certain that I am the weak link in its peak accuracy.... that being said, I was shooting a 12" pumpkin at 250 yards this last weekend with my Mosin and some of that 50+ year old green lacquered surplus ammo. And consistently hitting. While it may not be Marine Sniper detail shooting, it is consistent sub-5MOA performance from a cheaply mass produced light barrel rifle with 75 years of age on it, and 50 year old ammo. I have yet to feed it any more precise handloads... I'm shooting up my surplus first before I use my Graf's brass or any of my retail S&B boxer primed ammo.

Even with the full length stock, it is a surprisingly light rifle. I would think that dropping the action into a modern polymer stock would make it even lighter.

It makes a good hiking partner, though I prefer a Win94 for this task (but no big critters are around that a 30-30 won't take care of). The cartridge is a respectable performer on deer, elk, moose or black bear. I think the 91/30 is a better defensive rifle than the M44 and other shorter derivatives due to the spear-like nature of the full length beast. It is not a fast action rifle to repeatedly fire, made even more so by my southpaw proclivities. But that bayonet will reach someone over 3 feet away from you lickety-split. 1-2 shots, then stab. It's benefit over other platforms is that loooong barrel and bayonet.

Cosmoline
November 5, 2007, 02:30 PM
The Mosin was never meant as a weapon that would do much to help keep an individual soldier alive,

I'm not sure where you're getting that idea. You still seem to be confusing the tactics of a particular military force with the intended design of a rifle it happened to use. The Mosin was meant to fire a three line projectile at supersonic speeds. There's nothing about it that makes it limited to use in human wave assaults. It can cover the full range of uses of any war rifle from the 20th century, from hunting to sniping to hit-and-run to assault to trench warfare. The Mosin has done it all and then some. Just look at the Winter War, where the Mosins served on both sides and were used for a full spectrum of tactical purposes by commands with fundamentally different theories of modern warfare. Mosins there were used in human wave assaults and in shooting down the assaulting forces. They were also used in innovative hit-and-run attacks and for some of the most effective sniping ever. They were used for hand-to-hand fighting and for hitting dark shapes far away.

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 02:43 PM
hey, anyone wanna guess what weapon the soviets feared the most while in Afghanistan? the Enfield and the Mosin. the soviets would tear apart a entire village looking for them if they found ONE .303 or 7.62x54r casing within afew miles of said village. soviet opperators crapped themselves when they found that the .303 goes THRU their "bullet-proof" vests.

ArmedBear
November 5, 2007, 03:22 PM
Cosmoline, a rifle designed around certain tactics is optimized for those tactics. That's not confusion. If you think it is, you didn't read what I wrote.

Or do you think the Brown Bess is effective when long-range accuracy is required? The M4 Carbine is a good choice for a sniper rifle if you have another choice? The Garand is the best choice as an entry weapon for urban warfare? Sure they all spit lead out the muzzle, but they're designed to be optimal for specific missions.

A Mosin 91/30 is 48.5" long and weighs 9.5 lb empty, has a capacity of 5 rounds, and it has a rate of fire significantly lower than an 1873 Winchester.

The M38 or M44 is shorter, but a tad more difficult to fire rapidly and effectively.

While it spits lead out the muzzle, even accurately in some cases, to suggest that it is a good choice for every mission you list, in the modern context, ignores reality. Sure, it's a gun.

WRT Afghanistan, what that says is that the gun can make for an effective sniper rifle. That doesn't speak for its ability to function as a defensive weapon in a modern context, though.

Again, it's a gun. Ballistically, it's about like a .30-06 deer rifle, give or take. Nobody says that all those deer aren't dead, or that the people killed with the .30-06 in WW II and other conflicts aren't dead. But I don't see anyone advocating a Remington 700 CDL as a good choice for a defensive weapon, either.

Why not? Because it's not built to handle that mission optimally, any more than a Mosin is.

The 1853 Enfield was a helluva military rifle in its day, also. That doesn't mean it's a great choice for defense right now.

Funderb
November 5, 2007, 03:48 PM
+1 for Armed Bear

Hoppy590
November 5, 2007, 03:58 PM
Armed Bear, maybe you didnt read the first 2 pages of this thread. but everyone as already covered the "not as good as alot of things, better than nothing" we got it. were not saying its great for HD. but its better than nothing

you came in and started takeing it to another level to insult the rifle

yes, the mosin was used because
Be cheap
be simple
be robust
be reliable
be peasant proof.

all traits shared by the SKS and AK as well.

soviet doctrine does emphasize massive conscript armys, because thats what they see fit best. then had german at thier door, and japan at theier rear. we had ocean. we had time to wait, build quality M1's and train men properly.

they needed men and mosins. 10,000 Men with mosins would be quicker and easier to get into action than 1,000 trained GI's with M1's. if they waited to train, more of russia would have fallen under nazi rule

and post war they had poor war ravaged satalite nations to support. so again. arming all of them fell back to Simple, cheap, and peasant proof.

when you dont have the time for quality, quantity is better.
when you need to make quantity, keep it cheap
when you dont have the technology, keep it simple
when you dont have the eductaion level, keep it peasant proof
when you cant garentee a solid supply line (see. Stalingrad) keep it reliable
when you run out of ammo, it damn well better be robust to club with

thats why prewar Mosins are generaly considered the best and war era are considered short cut rifles


the undereducated peasants, the technology level, the rushed cicumstances and the shakey supplies all FAVOR quantity over quality, and that leads to human wave attacks


Added:
which is exactly the strategic philosophy that led to the Russians being armed with Mosins, and the mentality that's expressed above:

the mosin was adopted in the Czarist days when russia was still an Empire of considerable skills. fleet out of nothing, well trained soldiers.

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 04:00 PM
you tell 'em Hoppy

esmith
November 5, 2007, 04:08 PM
It depends what you mean by "win."

I agree. If a soldier can get 3 or 4 deaths with his mosin before he is killed, then this may be considered a win on some part. This is why commanders such as Ulysses were known for sending their men in combat and not really caring too much if they were slaughtered so much as they killed more people than their enemy did.

Cosmoline
November 5, 2007, 04:10 PM
Sure they all spit lead out the muzzle, but they're designed to be optimal for specific missions.

Where did you get that from? The rifles of the Mosin's era were not specialized for specific missions. They're all-around rifles, good for everything from hunting to mass charges. I wouldn't argue that a Mosin is better than a carbine specialized for home defense, but the Mosin will still work in that role just as it will work in many other roles. It's been tested in a wide array of conditions and roles and passed the tests, which is more than many more specialized modern rifles can boast.

But I don't see anyone advocating a Remington 700 CDL as a good choice for a defensive weapon, either.

My only problem with using a 700 for home defense is the scope, which causes troubles at short ranges. If iron sights or an EER scope are used I'd take the Remington over any handgun. Accuracy is excellent, power is excellent. Cylcing is a tad slower than a tuned Mosin, but still functionally adequate.

Funderb
November 5, 2007, 04:18 PM
He's trying to say that you wouldn't use a sledge hammer to build a computer.
He's not saying that any rifle is bad at anything else, just that some situations are appropriate for different tools.

And the M/N was initially designed to be faster, and more convenient than a muzzleloader.
Then redesigned as a cheap, quickly produced steel tube + wood that would kill germans. Emphasis on cheap and quick.
Then redesigned again to be lighter, and shorter to save material, and still serve as an early version of a leatherman multi-purpose tool.
When it comes down to it they really weren't designed at all after 1891.
just chopped down a bit.

Timthinker
November 5, 2007, 04:26 PM
Obviously, the Mosin-Nagant is not an ideal choice as a self-defense weapon for the reasons listed previously. Yet, the sight of a firearm, any firearm, has deterred thugs in the past. Now, I do not mean to imply that brandishing a gun will automatically cause a BG to flee, but it can. Should this fail, then the good guy, or gal, will need a reliable and powerful firearm. The Mosin-Nagant seems to fill this category.

I close with an interesting story. An eldery lady my family knew once faced a frightening situation. She discovered three young men entered her home with the intent of doing no good. She immediately called for her husband to come out of the back bedroom with his gun. The intruders fled. What these punks did not realize was her husband had been dead for some time. I guess God still performs miracles these days.


Timthinker

Cosmoline
November 5, 2007, 04:32 PM
And the M/N was initially designed to be faster, and more convenient than a muzzleloader.

It actually replaced the Berdan, but I understand the point. The problem comes with assuming theres' been some stellar advance made in small arms since 1891 that has made the Mosin a relic. There hasn't been. You can take one smokeless centerfire rifle or another. One may be shorter or use a lower powered cartridge, another may be semiautomatic. But they're all variations on the same theme. Consequently the bolt action war rifles of the 1890's may be old, but they're not in the same class as a musket.

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 04:34 PM
can you imagine the movie "enemy at the gates" featuring a Brown Bess instead of the Mosin?

Cosmoline
November 5, 2007, 04:37 PM
... or Häyhä using one.

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 04:39 PM
http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb238/thedreadfather_2007/11599031405611152829024486.jpg

tube_ee
November 5, 2007, 05:02 PM
Discussions of effectiveness in war, as they're beside the point. Although the experience of the Red Army in Afghanistan before we started supplying the Mujaheddin with Stingers and such might make you rethink the effectiveness of the bolt-action battle rifle as a guerrilla weapon against a modern technological Army.

Still, for one man alone, defending hearth and home, with no thought to the offensive, it's hard to come up with a scenario that would be survivable with an AR / AK / FAL that would not be survivable with an M44. In extremis, the disadvantages of the lone gunman are much more likely to be due to his aloneness than to whatever weapon he is carrying.

If it's what you have, get as good with it as you can, and consider yourself as well-defended as you're likely to be. Because, really, you are.

--Shannon

ArmedBear
November 5, 2007, 05:10 PM
The problem comes with assuming theres' been some stellar advance made in small arms since 1891 that has made the Mosin a relic. There hasn't been.

Well, other than the perfection of compact, lightweight, reliable autoloaders, with large detachable magazines, since WW II, I guess there haven't.

Max rate of fire of a Brown Bess is about 3 rounds per minute. A Mosin, 15 rounds per minute. An AK or AR series fired semiauto with 30 rounders is good for what, 75 rpm, with each shot fired about as accurately as the Mosin's 15 rpm?

If you're going to say that a Mosin is a significant advance over a musket, and it is, then a modern general-issue rifle is about the same advancement over a Mosin. And the differences between, say, a Mosin and an AR are exactly the differences that matter for defensive use. We are NOT talking about sniping. Home defense is not sniping.

Furthermore, the bolt action was essentially perfected in 1898 WRT speed, ease and reliability of the action. True, even some of the best bolt actions to this day are copies of the Mauser's engineering. But even THAT was after 1891.

OTOH, I suppose you're right that a pretty effective defensive rifle was designed by 1891. It wasn't the Mosin, though. The 1866 Winchester predated the Mosin by 25 years, and was a superior defensive weapon from its inception, as was the improved, steel-framed 1873.

If iron sights or an EER scope are used I'd take the Remington over any handgun.

That would depend on the situation. A 9mm semiauto would probably work better against, say, 3 home invaders, than the Remington 700, especially indoors in close quarters. You'd have to know how to shoot it fast, but that's true of anything. Note that that doesn't mean a semiauto carbine wouldn't be better still, and it also doesn't mean any number of other things that I didn't write.:rolleyes:

ArmedBear
November 5, 2007, 05:11 PM
it's hard to come up with a scenario that would be survivable with an AR / AK / FAL that would not be survivable with an M44

Actually, it's really easy, and it's not an unthinkable scenario.

Start with this one: two home invaders, with pistols in their pockets.

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 05:13 PM
you there! yes you, the bear with the gun! i get the strange feeling you just hate bolt guns.

atek3
November 5, 2007, 05:13 PM
my main problem is that operating a mosin on the shoulder is very tricky, whereas operating an enfield on the shoulder is easy... it makes the enfield a hands down better choice

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 05:15 PM
but this is a mosin thread!!!!!

ArmedBear
November 5, 2007, 05:20 PM
i get the strange feeling you just hate bolt guns.

Yeah, that's it...:rolleyes:

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 05:21 PM
knew it....

Noxx
November 5, 2007, 05:23 PM
I own several mosins, and I lerv the heck out of em. However in case of the front door getting kicked in, it's last on my list right behind my shotgun, every handgun I own, and the SKS.

I can't even imagine the effects on sight and hearing of popping off an M44 in the house.

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 05:25 PM
noxx, read my earlier post of my experiance with the boomstick and enclosed spaces.

ArmedBear
November 5, 2007, 05:26 PM
Hell, I own two Mosins, and more bolties than anything else. My go-to hunting rifle is a bolt gun. Love it.

A Mosin is not just any bolt gun, though.

The Mosin is not my LAST choice for home defense, though. I would choose a Mosin over at least one long gun I have, for home defense use. It's a sidelock muzzleloader. Actually, there's another: an old straight-pull Mannlicher. Straight-pull sounds quick and easy, until you actually try it.:)

TimboKhan
November 5, 2007, 05:28 PM
I mean, the Brown Bess helped sustain a vast empire, too, but I wouldn't want to face one guy with a modern weapon if I had 20 with muskets.


Boy, speaking only for me, I would take those odds in a heartbeat.

Armedbear, your scenario of two BG's in the house with pistols isn't necessarily unwinnable with a Mosin, just as it isn't necessarily winnable with an AR. If you will recall, I said that author David Fortier did some testing, and was able to achieve one aimed shot every 2-3 seconds. Provided that the BG's don't have the drop on you (which would be bad news regardless of weapon) and provided that you have practiced with your rifle, I see this as case where the enormous boom works in your favor. The surprise of the giant flash/boom, followed by BG#1 dropping to the floor with a sucking chest wound would likely generate enough spare time to chamber another round and fire at BG#2. You might only get 1 shot at each, but you might only get 1 shot with the AR too.

I tend to agree that the abundance of tacticool rifles has made people forget the forest for the trees. Multiple bad guys broke into homes in the 40's, 50's and 60's, and people certainly didn't have AK's, AR's or SKS's then. I am not saying that as an argument for the M/N, as much as to point out that people have successfully been repelling invaders for a long time without the aid of an AR.

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 05:33 PM
plus BG#1 would be on fire, as well as breathing thru the fist sized exit wound in his back....

ArmedBear
November 5, 2007, 05:42 PM
TimboKhan, of course you can come up with some scenario where a Mosin might work.

However, the practice and skill it would take to shoot both BG's with the Mosin, indoors in close quarters, before either of them can pull out a pistol and/or grab your rifle and point it away from them, would allow you to shoot each of them 3 times with an AR, alternating between them. Add a third guy, and you can really go through some mental gymnastics imagining how you'd hit all of them with your Mosin in close quarters.

Sure, if you hit each with the Mosin, the shot would be effective. But with the AR, you can even afford to miss once or twice.

But hey, go ahead, close your eyes and imagine your way to home defense nirvana with your Mosin.

Milsurp yoga! (Although I think my Ishy would be better for yoga for some reason.) :)

CajunBass
November 5, 2007, 05:47 PM
I close with an interesting story. An eldery lady my family knew once faced a frightening situation. She discovered three young men entered her home with the intent of doing no good. She immediately called for her husband to come out of the back bedroom with his gun. The intruders fled. What these punks did not realize was her husband had been dead for some time. I guess God still performs miracles these days.

My mother told me once that when she and my dad first got married, he told her, "If I ever yell for you to "get the gun," don't you yell back "We don't have one.".

If you take a half million Mosin's, and give them to a half million conscripts, you can defend a half million homes.

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 05:48 PM
oh, and bear, i was joking. as for thinking you would miss using a Mosin indoors, how big is your house?!?!?!??! i know if i step into my hallway with any gun you put in my hands, i can hit whatever is there. my narrow hall makes a great shooting lane.

ArmedBear
November 5, 2007, 05:53 PM
It's not always safe to interpret something that seems like a joke, AS a joke, around here.:D I did think you were joking, though.

I wouldn't miss the first guy, unless he grabbed the rifle and pushed it out of the way. That would be pretty easy to do with a 91/30 in close quarters. Of course, if you shoot it, the effect will be like a flash-bang. Probably on everyone in the room, including the shooter.

tube_ee
November 5, 2007, 06:00 PM
Start with this one: two home invaders, with pistols in their pockets.

You shoot one, the other one shoots you. Guess what... even if you shoot the other one on your way down, you still lose. Or, you shoot one, the other one runs. You win. If you take a round, you lose. Period. Of all the scenarios offered as proof of the superiority of the high-cap / high ROF weapon (for one person alone), the multiple-attacker scenario is the most-frequently presented, and the least convincing. If one person is up against multiple people, and assuming equal motivation to kill or be killed, the solo person is going to die. If the bad guys haven't beat feet when the first one takes a round, it's game over for the solo.

Dying is losing, regardless of how many of them also die.

--Shannon

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 06:00 PM
long story short, my friends and i were hiking and we took a shortcut under a highway thru one of those big, and i mean BIG, drainage pipes. not a great idea, but it ment we didnt have to worry about getting flattened by a truck. we walked about 10 feet in and turned a corner. we came face to face with a coyote that had the same shortcut idea as us. I shot it with my m-38. we were blind and deaf for the next 15 minutes
yup thats me:o

wcwhitey
November 5, 2007, 06:13 PM
Kitty, with your hallway for a shooting lane one shot is good for at least 2-3 bg's if they are stacked in a row. This post got a little carried away, pot shots from Afgan rebels at distance is not HD as I took it. I stated in my reply that a MN would be a good cabin gun, capable of taking down the biggest game, wild dog, coyote or bad intentioned human that wandered onto the property. But indoors is out of the question. :fire: The little fire guy is what a shooters face would look like as the first shot is going off. Bill :)

Funderb
November 5, 2007, 06:13 PM
Screw all of it.
My dad says, and I'm starting to agree,
the handgrenade is a wonderweapon. give me
a cratefull and home defense is no problem!
: P

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 06:23 PM
1) who you callin' kitty mate? its KILT!!!!!:cuss::cuss:
2) the hall example is just that, an example
3)the afgahn thing was in response to someone saying that mosins had no place on the modern battlefield.

wcwhitey
November 5, 2007, 06:26 PM
Sorry about the name, did not mean to fire ya up:fire: :fire: Bill:)

Cosmoline
November 5, 2007, 06:28 PM
If you're going to say that a Mosin is a significant advance over a musket, and it is, then a modern general-issue rifle is about the same advancement over a Mosin.

You're getting hung up on rate of fire. The autoloaders are permutations of the same smokeless technology that the Mosin uses. Other than the ability to keep an enemy pinned down with fewer troops, they really don't have that much of an advantage over older smokeless repeaters. And they have their own set of drawbacks. The brown bess uses black powder without a cartridge and is in a different class of firearms. It doesn't even use a modern bullet, and has only a fraction the effective range of a Mosin.

Start with this one: two home invaders, with pistols in their pockets.

I may have to fire twice.

Cosmoline
November 5, 2007, 06:33 PM
the practice and skill it would take to shoot both BG's with the Mosin, indoors in close quarters, before either of them can pull out a pistol and/or grab your rifle and point it away from them, would allow you to shoot each of them 3 times with an AR, alternating between them. Add a third guy, and you can really go through some mental gymnastics imagining how you'd hit all of them with your Mosin in close quarters.

Inside of 50 yards against any of the old war rifles you're toast. Do we need to go back over the tragic consequences whenever trained LEO's have tried to charge in against a full powered bolt action rifle? They get slaughtered. From the James Cantwell shootout on down. If your plan is to try to grab the barrel, I'd suggest another plan! That's like jumping down a shark's gullet in hopes of choking him to death.

Clearly, there are circumstances where an AR is going to have an edge. Multiple determined attackers is one. Laying down suppressive fire is another. But there are also circumstances where a SP round from a Mosin is going to stop the attack faster than the .223. And there are circumstances where the AR will jam but the Mosin won't.

I wouldn't miss the first guy, unless he grabbed the rifle and pushed it out of the way. That would be pretty easy to do with a 91/30 in close quarters.

I don't suggest trying this at home, but with an unloaded Mosin (or Mauser, SMLE or similar war rifle) someone grabbing the barrel when the other fellow has the rifle up and ready is going to find themselves with a broken jaw and probably wrist in the space of a few seconds. They'll also be on the floor. That's WITHOUT a bayonet on it. The holder of the rifle has much better leverage and is using their main torso muscles, which are about twenty times stronger than your wrist is esp. when the wrist is out at the end of the barrel. The rifle is the hammer, your arm is the nail. Ouch! Now no doubt there is some ninja who can duck in fast under the gun and slice the rifle shooter in half, and the guy with the rifle only realizes it a minute later when he pulls a funny face falls in two pieces. I know that because I've seen it in the movies. But I'll take my chances. And when I hear the sounds of trouble I'll still grab the big Mosin over most other firearms.

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 06:34 PM
its cool, that wasnt even a poof! i cant get "really" fired up or i would get banned...

ArmedBear
November 5, 2007, 06:57 PM
Sounds like some of you need to get away from the paper and benches and try actually shooting.

Hitting two man-sized targets in a half-second at point blank range is easier to do than what skeet shooters, 3-gunners, steel plate shooters, CAS competitors, and upland hunters do on weekends for kicks. To suggest that it's not possible is just plain silly. It's not only possible, it's not even hard to do. But NOT with a Mosin!

No, I'm not "hung up" on rate of fire. Sounds like you're "hung up" on smokeless powder. Ever shoot BP cartridge? Not much difference, just more smoke.

If an AR is just an iteration of the same technology as a Mosin, the Mosin is just an iteration of the same technology as a Brown Bess: explosive chemicals propelling lead down a barrel.

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 07:03 PM
thats why in CQB the mosin also has three extra weapons called bayonet, steel buttplate, and the ensuing firestorm of cussing and blind flailing following the first shot

Cosmoline
November 5, 2007, 07:03 PM
I know my own real life success rate hitting living things with a short gun. So I'll stick with the rifle. Stationary targets are NOT the same thing. I've had the humliation of grouse and squirrel staring at me in bemused silence (or chittering at me in the sqirrel's case) as revolver rounds smacked around them, and they weren't even moving much, let alone returning fire! Anytime the blood is pumping and lives are on the line--even that of a silly flying hamburger--accuracy goes down. At least for me. So I figure I'll start out if possible with the accurate and powerful platform I'm most confident with. Maybe the SKS would be better but it's locked away and there's no easy way to disable it as there is with the Mosin.

Sounds like you're "hung up" on smokeless powder.

All modern firearms are hung up on smokeless powder. It's the central fact of life. So far nobody has come up with a better substitute, at least at prices we can afford. And yes there is a great deal of difference between black and smokeless. In both chemical and practical terms. Not too many muskets can throw an expanding bullet at 2,500 to 3,000 fps. And I don't know many redcoats who racked up 500 confirmed kills during the Revolution.

Apart from rate of fire, what is it you think the AR can do that the Mosin can't?

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 07:05 PM
the mosin can blow a BG away WITHOUT touching him. the AR is a glorified
.22

Justin
November 5, 2007, 07:07 PM
You honestly believe that?

Acheron
November 5, 2007, 07:09 PM
There really isn't anything (other than rate of fire) that an AR/AK/G3/FAL can do that a Mosin can't. Other than cost a lot more :D.

I'm with ya on this one Cosmoline; when I hear those bad noises outside I'm grabbing the Mosin. Long live 7.62x54R!

Jorg Nysgerrig
November 5, 2007, 07:10 PM
thats why in CQB the mosin also has three extra weapons called bayonet, steel buttplate, and the ensuing firestorm of cussing and blind flailing following the first shot
the mosin can blow a BG away WITHOUT touching him. the AR is a glorified
.22

And this, boys and girls, is why you don't make decisions regarding firearms based on the vast knowledge and experience of 16-year old weapons experts on the interweb.

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 07:10 PM
Huzzah!

ArmedBear
November 5, 2007, 07:11 PM
Cosmoline, if I'm facing two home invaders, which is not an unlikely scenario, rate of fire is not trivial. It's simply stupid to suggest that it is.

You keep repeating what a single bullet can do. Duh. No ****.

A .45-70 at reasonable ranges is at least as deadly, though. For the purpose here, smokeless offers no advantage.

The point is that having more than one round at one's immediate disposal matters. You may think it doesn't. But it does. A lot.

Does that mean I will invite multiple armed burglars into my home? Of course not. I don't want to face one armed man, to say nothing of two, in my home if I can help it. But rate of fire sure as hell matters if you need it, and the situation where it matters most is defense.

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 07:11 PM
jorg, you take my comments way too seriously. getting shot with ANY gun sucks. end of story. im just of the oppinion that the bigger the better.

Cosmoline
November 5, 2007, 07:20 PM
Cosmoline, if I'm facing two home invaders, which is not an unlikely scenario, rate of fire is not trivial. It's simply stupid to suggest that it is.

I wouldn't say it's trivial, but in real life the difference in my followup speed with the SKS vs. the Mosin is pretty much trivial. The real delays are going to come in aiming and assessing threat. Plus I know the M91 will be hitting about twice as hard with each impact. Six of one half a dozen of the other. There's no way to guarantee an outcome and any increase in rate of fire represents a tradeoff in power.

A .45-70 at reasonable ranges is at least as deadly, though. For the purpose here, smokeless offers no advantage.

Not if we're limited to black powder power levels. Smokeless rounds can go far faster and hit a lot harder. Properly designed, they destroy more tissue which means you can stop an assailant faster.

The point is that having more than one round at one's immediate disposal matters. You may think it doesn't. But it does. A lot.

I have several more rounds in the magazine, as the Mosin is a repeater. The difference is relying on an automated system to cycle vs. cycling it yourself with the bolt. There are trade offs each way.

TimboKhan
November 5, 2007, 08:44 PM
However, the practice and skill it would take to shoot both BG's with the Mosin, indoors in close quarters, before either of them can pull out a pistol and/or grab your rifle and point it away from them, would allow you to shoot each of them 3 times with an AR, alternating between them.

HAHA!! You just acknowledged that it would be possible! I win this round!

Seriously though, I'm not arguing against the AR. I am literally sitting 2 feet away from mine as I type this. My Mosin is in the closet, although I must admit that I have taken it out and walked through my house testing how difficult it would be manuever as compared to my AR. As it turns out, the difference is pretty minor. Anyway, my whole point here is that M/N HD possible, and even you have to admit that it is. Again, the key here isn't that it is the best option, simply that it is a viable one.

wisocki
November 5, 2007, 10:11 PM
Are you F-ing kidding me?! Nagant for defense. If you want rugged + reliable go AK.

yesit'sloaded
November 5, 2007, 10:25 PM
I still wonder how much the shock and awe of watching your criminal buddy's head explode while the roar and fireball engulfs you would take the fight right out of you.

ROMAK IV
November 5, 2007, 11:05 PM
LET'S GO OVER THIS AGAIN...

Your M-44 can be loaded and set aside and will fire when the trigger is pulled for probably the next century. It is like a large and powerful revolver, without the revolver part, but it can be kept loaded for a long time.

99.5% of the time, out of the 2.5 million DGU's in the United States, there is no injury and no weapons fire. The criminals see the gun and flee. Any gun will work in this instance and the more threatening the better.

In the case of 2 BG"s, the effect upon the one not shot, especially a carbine such as the M-44 and the popular short range 7.62 x 54R round would be at least equivalent to a flash grenade. In addition, the neighbors WILL hear the shot and will call the police. The surviving BG will be dioriented and perhaps will believe that he was hit as well.

It's not much slower, if at all, than a pump shotgun. It will fill most Hd situations more than adequately. It can be brought into action as quickly as anything else, is always ready for use, and it is inexpensive enough for anyone to be able to afford one. What more do you need?

jpwilly
November 6, 2007, 12:34 AM
thats why in CQB the mosin also has three extra weapons called bayonet, steel buttplate, and the ensuing firestorm of cussing and blind flailing following the first shot

While your dancing around with your Mosin the BG's are kicking your arse for making their ears ring and ruining their night vision. The music is "read these nikes" and you're on the carpet trying not to get kicked in the head as some punk takes your pig sticker from your "cold dead hands".

My AK (or AR) for that matter will be reading them poetry something like
blam blam blam (repeat that 27 more times)
to the tune of "bodies hit the floor" my BUG is a 1911...the mop is in the closet.

Muzzle blast and noise are about as effective as a smelly fart - most people can take it if they have to!

07Lway
November 6, 2007, 01:04 AM
I would grab it before a knife, stick, or club...

Seeing as how it already has all of that stuff as well as being able to shoot the bad guys.

I don't really love this for home defense, but I think it is an undervalued field gun. It is a little heavy, but it is nice to walk through some rough terrain without having to worry about scratching it up or damage it by dropping it.

Joshua C
November 6, 2007, 01:09 AM
Muzzle blast and noise are about as effective as a smelly fart - most people can take it if they have to!

Which is why flash-bangs are so ineffective?

.45&TKD
November 6, 2007, 03:02 PM
no real way you can justify HD at 200 yards. even in a SHTF/EOTWAWKI

Hop, I hear a lot of people say this, but what if you and your family are out in the open and someone is shooting at you from 200 yds?

esmith
November 6, 2007, 03:05 PM
when I hear those bad noises outside I'm grabbing the Mosin.

Im not. Odds are that there is usually going to be more than one person involved in a home break in or burglary. Considering both are armed id rather just be able to blow off 4 or 5 rounds into the both of them with my SKS instead of wasting time fiddling with the bolt on my mosin.

Considering im not educated in the art of warfare, im going with whatever sends more copper and lead into the air.

Funderb
November 6, 2007, 03:14 PM
I really don't have trouble moving the bolt, and can do
it faster than people with upper end rifles and hit the target.
The thing about this is that it doesn't matter what's going down.
you will grab the rifle that you are comfortable with. After thousands of round with my mosin, I am very comfortable with it.
You may be comfortable with an uzi. That's cool,
I'm not, so I probably won't grab one if someone's inside.

MiddleAgedKen
November 6, 2007, 03:49 PM
I have an M38. I enjoy shooting it and it's a lot better than nothing, but even after I get the sticky bolt sorted out I'll be looking for something else as a first line of defense. That said, I'd like to get an M44, M91/30, or one of the Finnish reworks. There is something to be said in favor of utter reliability.

Keb
November 6, 2007, 03:58 PM
Home Defense means to me shooting at somebody in the same room or coming thru the door?
How fast can you cycle the bolt on an M44?

I'd rather have a pistol or any semiauto something.

Acheron
November 6, 2007, 04:49 PM
Remember, not all nasty things that go bump in the night are human in nature. There's quite a few bears around where I live and while I've never had a problem with them before, I certainly don't want to take one on with a .223 or a pistol. I'm busting out the Mosin when it comes to bear defense.

And yes bears can break into your house if they are very determined (or hungry).

jpwilly
November 6, 2007, 08:10 PM
Which is why flash-bangs are so ineffective?

Don't remember saying anything about flash bangs (go ahead take things way out of context if you wish) but I was referring to muzzle blast and flash of a Mosin not being enough to deture a BG. Last time I checked it won't! Keep on thinking it does if you like! I have a 16.5" Nagant with a muzzle break that will surely pop your ears and shoots plenty of flames that will easily blind everyone in the room. I don't have any illusions about alternitive uses for it though! Let just say I'm not going to count on it deturing any BG's long enough to cycle the bolt and take another quick shot. If I had to take a shot in my house I'd rather just have my 1911 and forget messing about with a Nagant. I'm not a hater...I own three of these beasts!

http://i124.photobucket.com/albums/p38/jpwilly/100_0778.jpg

TimboKhan
November 6, 2007, 08:25 PM
And yes bears can break into your house if they are very determined (or hungry).

True enough. A lady here in Colorado just got bitten by a bear that she surprised going through her fridge. A few years back, a guy up in Aspen who happened to be a quadreplegic was laying in bed one night when a bear strolled by his bedroom door on his way to his kitchen, where he then ate all of the guys expensive chocolates. The article in the news was actually pretty hilarious, because the guy had a pretty good sense of humor about the whole thing, though he did say that he was absolutely terrified when the bear walked by his bedroom door.

KiltedClaymore
November 6, 2007, 09:02 PM
True enough. A lady here in Colorado just got bitten by a bear that she surprised going through her fridge. A few years back, a guy up in Aspen who happened to be a quadreplegic was laying in bed one night when a bear strolled by his bedroom door on his way to his kitchen, where he then ate all of the guys expensive chocolates. The article in the news was actually pretty hilarious, because the guy had a pretty good sense of humor about the whole thing, though he did say that he was absolutely terrified when the bear walked by his bedroom door.
im sure he wasnt laughing at the time!

Cosmoline
November 6, 2007, 09:11 PM
There are a fair number of browns from the Chugach who come down into the town parks to forage. They know to keep to themselves though and are rarely seen. The Air Force did a study that indicated they've become nocturnal to avoid people. Two year olds sometimes come bouncing around and cause troubles though.

TimboKhan
November 7, 2007, 01:15 AM
im sure he wasnt laughing at the time!


No, definitely not! In the interview, the only thing he said that he wanted done to the bear was that he wanted the bear to reimburse him for his chocolates, lol.

woodybrighton
November 7, 2007, 01:06 PM
only ever used and enfield and not even allowed that for home defence here.
that said a rifles better than nothing and realistically if its multiple bad guys who are prepared to fight and armed unless your some super ninja your going down :mad:
but how many crims are going to stand and fight over a dvd player

Cosmoline
November 7, 2007, 01:11 PM
He can take the DVD player, but he'll only have my copy of "Talvisota" when he pulls it from my cold, dead hands!

saturno_v
November 7, 2007, 06:11 PM
First of all, hello to everybody

My 0.02 cents..

I own 3 Mosin 91/30, and they are within my favourite pieces of my, so far, limited, gun collection (in addition to them I own a beautiful Mauser 98 professionaly sporterized in 30-06, a Remington 740 in 30-06, a Marlin lever action in 30-30, an AK in 7,62 X 39, a CETME in .308 and a Mossberg 500 12 gauge).
I plan to put a black synthetic stock, a bent bolt handle and a scope in one of my Mosins.
I would love to buy an Enfield or a Kar98 but I do not feel like to spend $250+ for specimen that are in far worse shape than the regular Mosins I can get for $ 79 at Big Five or GI Joe's. So I guess I will keep buying Mosins for a while ;-)

I agree with the vast majority of you that a Mosin would not be my first or even second choice for HD purposes.
At the moment my designated piece for such task is my Mossy stuffed with 00 buckshot shells.
This week I should receive my CPL then I will buy 2 handguns, one in .40 S&W (undecided between a Taurus PT100 or a Beretta 96) and the other in .45 ACP (not sure which one yet...)
These two new entry will relieve my Mossy from primary HD duty.....

However the Mosin IMHO is an awesome field cannon, extremely reliable, well balanced despite its weight, rugged and reliable, VERY accurate and VERY VERY deadly.
Ballistic data for the 7,62 X 54R, even if already significantly good on its own, do not tell the whole story.
The ballistic coefficient of its elongated bullet allow very deep penetration beyond what the values of ft/lb of energy on paper.
I laugh when I read that the 54R is "just a good deer cartridge".
In Russia they do not have promptly available (or cannot easily afford) the vast assortment of Magnum calibers we enjoy in the west, but believe me, they drop Polar Bears and other nasty critters over there with this round VERY EFFECTIVELY. There aren't many earth creatures that the good old 54R, with the proper bullet, cannot take quickly.

Bullet placement folks.....better to throw well aimed 54R shots at a charging Grizzly than shooting all over the place with a .375 because of its unbearable recoil.

The Mosin drawbacks compared to more modern bolt action rifles are mainly the quirky safety (however you can get "comfortably" used to it), the fact that it is a LONG weapon, the weight (a sporterized synthetic stock helps a little bit) and the lack of a bent bolt (that is easily solved with very little money).

I never had any sticky bolt problem so far with different ammos.

I will never buy an M38 or an M44, they kick too much, lose significant power and accuracy compared to the 91/30 and the longer barrel does not really bother me for the kind of activity I do with the rifle...I'm not involved in close quarter combat....

Mosins are still used in battlefields (including Iraq and Afganistan), and they are as lethal (and feared) as any modern weapon when used in situations that fits them the best: well aimed long range shots....just ask to our soldiers...

It is not an assault rifle and never intended to be...but it recycled itself very effectively from old style trench war rifle to a sniping tool....

I hope this video can showcase the Mosin capabilities (power and accuracy) beyond any reasonable doubt and close the thread literally with a bang ;-)
91/30 open sights, drop a boar (not exactly a skinny light framed animal...) at 350 yards breaking the spine at its widest point before exiting on the other side......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xCSDWM0J-L8

NOOk
November 9, 2007, 05:28 PM
is there really such a thing as too powerful?

Yes, you want to haul out one shot burglar or two halves of a shot burglar and hamburger all over your bedroom?. That round isn't stopping halfway through a guy, it's got other places to go once the main job is done. Think about the kids two rooms over, the neighbors out the window, your new plasma TV... I can't imagine shooting that thing in my bedroom with no ear protection, I'd be afraid it'd blow my eardrums into each other.

Fosbery
November 9, 2007, 05:41 PM
It over-penetrates far too much for use in the home, it's sloooow to shoot, the sights are poor and it only holds five rounds. The recoil and muzzle blast are dreadful from the shorter guns and the long ones are too big. Even the long guns are too noisy to fire indoors with any degree of safety. It may be rugged and reliable but countless other weapons will perform just as reliably for home defence and Katrina type situation. Over here you can pick up a beaten Browning Auto 5 for about £50 which is $25. I'd rather have one of those than a $100 Mosin.

Cosmoline
November 9, 2007, 07:05 PM
That round isn't stopping halfway through a guy, it's got other places to go once the main job is done.

I don't trust rounds that are designed to go only half way through someone who's trying to kill me. I want the bullet to hit, expand and blast through the back. Same thing you want when taking game, stopping bears or anything else. Two holes are better than one.

I also don't know how much faster a shooter is going to be able to cycle a pump 12 ga. vs. a Mosin. In both cases you need to know what you're doing to work the action quickly, but it can be done in both cases. Most folks don't know how to work the Mosin bolt properly. They use their finger tips and thumb. You gotta slap dat hog!

HorseSoldier
November 9, 2007, 07:55 PM
Hop, I hear a lot of people say this, but what if you and your family are out in the open and someone is shooting at you from 200 yds?

A valid point, though the real world odds of encountering this scenario (especially when you have a rifle handy to defend yourself) are probably only slightly higher than the odds of being attacked by a shark. On land. ;)

Geronimo45
November 9, 2007, 08:14 PM
Over here you can pick up a beaten Browning Auto 5 for about £50 which is $25.
What? In an anti-gun country, you can buy a Browning for cheaper than we can buy Lorcins?

Acheron
November 9, 2007, 08:22 PM
A Browning Auto 5 for 50 GBP? What?!

Not to mention the fact that 50 pounds is not 25 USD. The current exchange rate is 2.09 USD to 1 GBP so 50 pounds equals 110 USD.

Funderb
November 9, 2007, 08:58 PM
In england you can have an air rifle.
where are you going to buy a firearm in england?

yesit'sloaded
November 9, 2007, 09:06 PM
If you line the goblins up just right you can take them both out with one shot. I'm sitting here right now looking at my bayonet for my 91/30 and it is longer than from my hand to my elbow, combined with a 4.5 foot long rifle that gives you plenty of room to stand back and STRIKE, ROTATE, and PULL. I think the fact that the bayonet is in the shape of a cross it would work on vampires too. I should get a silver one for werewolves. I think the 91/30 is a little too unwieldy, but the m44 isn't all that bad considering it is smaller than a full size shotgun. I would probably grab my .38 first, but if bears break in I'm going for the Mosin.

Novus Collectus
November 9, 2007, 09:19 PM
In england you can have an air rifle.
where are you going to buy a firearm in england?From the gun dealer. They are allowed to have shotguns, rifles and even some specific use handguns.
Cap and ball revolvers are legal too.

With a firearm certificate one can even own semi auto shotguns.

Hoppy590
November 9, 2007, 11:05 PM
Hop, I hear a lot of people say this, but what if you and your family are out in the open and someone is shooting at you from 200 yds?

if i have the ability, im getting out of dodge. and if i cant move, then im probibly boned as it is. if im in my home, taking fire from 200 yards. i will go get my mosin if need be, but i have far better options. if im on the move taking fire from 200 yards, im gunna keep moving. if i cant keep moving. then hopefully i had the forthought to bring friends, brign friends with guns, bring friends with long guns. and at that point. 7mm rem magnum turns "cover" into simple "concealment" very effectively

TimboKhan
November 10, 2007, 03:38 AM
I've said it before, i'll say it again: The over-penetration argument doesn't hold any water with me. Any round with velocity sufficient to whack a bad guy has enough velocity to fly through said bad guy, then the walls, then whomever is on the other side. If you don't believe me, go look at the tests on box o' truth.

It over-penetrates far too much for use in the home, it's sloooow to shoot, the sights are poor and it only holds five rounds.

The sights are not poor. I won't go so far as to say they are awesome, but they are actually pretty good sights. Also, this "only holds 5 rounds" argument is sort of bothering me... My bedside .357 only holds 6 rounds, and I don't feel the least bit underarmed with that. My carry .357 only holds 5 rounds, and I don't feel underarmed with that either.

Fosbery
November 10, 2007, 08:33 AM
Sorry about the conversion mix-up, I'm always doing that! But yes, if you look hard enough you can find A5s and Bredas for that sort of price. For about £100 you can get Franchis and Fabarms. I guess that's god making up for everything else costing two or three times what you pay in the states. Nylon 66s are pretty cheap here too I seem to remember.

It's true that most anything powerful enough to put down a bad guy is powerful enough to go where it's not meant to, but some #4 buckshot isn't going to penetrate nearly as much as a 7.62x54mm.

In fact, if you do read the Box O' Truth you'll see that a .308. which I suppose is broadly comparable to the Russian cartridge, goes through 12 sheets, splits open the water jug and smashes a brick. The #4 buck goes through just 7 sheets.

Sights, I guess, are personal taste but personally I think they're awful for HD on the Mosin. They're small with no contrast, no ring, and, obviously, no night elements!

Five rounds isn't bad as such, but it's not something to be proud of either. I'd be happy with a 5 round shotgun because it's got so many other advantages. I can't see any advantages to the Mosin, except maybe stopping power, but you can get equal results from a shotgun or an SKS - and you should be able to pick up either for not too much more than a Mosin.

Novus Collectus
November 10, 2007, 12:59 PM
For those that live by themselves or with just a spouse in the country or in a brick house, or in a house surrounded by hills and berms, overpenetraion is not as much of an issue IMO.

TimboKhan
November 10, 2007, 02:10 PM
In fact, if you do read the Box O' Truth you'll see that a .308. which I suppose is broadly comparable to the Russian cartridge, goes through 12 sheets, splits open the water jug and smashes a brick. The #4 buck goes through just 7 sheets

I think you miss the point. That it penetrates through less sheets, it still penetrates through 7 SHEETS. Most people have to worry about 2-6 sheets of sheetrock (3 walls worth). I suppose it is less penetrative, but your just as dead if your standing on the other side.

I also would remind you that I do not use my mosin for home defense. I have several home defense guns scattered about my apartment, but my main two are my .357 revolver and my Bushmaster carbine.

Magnum88C
November 10, 2007, 02:17 PM
Sights, I guess, are personal taste but personally I think they're awful for HD on the Mosin. They're small with no contrast, no ring, and, obviously, no night elements!

Versus the shotgun you'd rather have which has a bead. Oh yes, shotguns CAN have ghost rings, Aimpoints and such, but it's extremely rare. Even if everyone CLAIMED to have such here, it's still the exception, not the rule.
However, Mosin sights work very well.
Awful for HD? Same notch and post as a pistol. They must suck too.
Except for that big front sight hood. Use it to "bracket" the target, you don't even have to line up the rear sight, it'll be close enough as across-the-room distances, and very good for snapshots.

Five rounds isn't bad as such, but it's not something to be proud of either. I'd be happy with a 5 round shotgun because it's got so many other advantages. I can't see any advantages to the Mosin, except maybe stopping power, but you can get equal results from a shotgun or an SKS - and you should be able to pick up either for not too much more than a Mosin.
The primary motivator for a Mosin is price.
An SKS costs twice what a Mosin does, and a shotgun, USED, bought locally (not on the VunderNET), will start at 3x the cost.
The 7.62x39 will zip through things in a modern dwelling just as well as a 7.62x54R, and the SKS has the same sights as a Mosin (and AK), but a shorter sight radius.
Shotgun ammo runs about $1 a shot, and you have a bead sight. Shotgun pellets, if they are of a worthy size for defense, will zip right through modern dwellings as well.
As for noise, there is no such thing as a rifle or shotgun that is less that ear splitting indoors.

A Mosin of any flavor is not a do-all, end-all of defensive firearms. BUT it can be used. Most firearms used for defense are less than optimal. You mak do with what you have.

jpwilly
November 10, 2007, 03:41 PM
Nobody has said the Mosin Nagant isn't a real rifle with real power and if it's all you have - use it for HD. But come on...there are much better options for HD! I personally have 13 rifles, 3 shotguns & 4 handguns...I'd take 4 of those rifles, 3 of those handguns and 1 of those shotguns for HD before I'd reach for a Nagant.

RockyMtnTactical
November 10, 2007, 04:40 PM
The mosin would make for a very lousy home defense weapon compared to what is out there.

That said, it's better than a sharp stick.

Magnum88C
November 10, 2007, 04:47 PM
OK, but going off of the first post:

. . .I have better rifles to do those things, and thus choose them.

Or would I?

The Mosin has several things going for it as a defense rifle.
. . .I would agree that the Mosin probably isn't the best home defense rifle. Loud, overkill for caliber, unwieldy. But, if it was all I had handy or all I could afford, it would by-god get the job done! . . . I can think of plenty of realistic situations where it would be a good choice. Not the BEST choice mind you, but a good, functional choice. . . .Anyway, thats just my opinion. I fully realize that there are better choices, and as I mentioned, I have taken advantage of those choices myself. But, I also know that if the situation turns ugly, that $100.00 rifle in my closet will be more than up to the task of keeping me alive.


The gist seemed to me to be that, indeed if it was all you have it would indeed do. The thread then of course launched into "there's better choices, and these are what I think they are", rather than discussing if/how a Mosin could be used to defend one's home and person. I just wanted to point out that everyone's pet choice has disadvantages, and in some ways aren't quite as good a choice as a Mosin. For instance:
1.) ANY handgun choice gives up a LOT of power to the (centerfire) long gun. But you gain maneuverability and a lower noise/flash level.
2.) Shotguns rule for CQB (with a good BUCKSHOT load), but you pay in terms of recoil and noise.
3.) Centerfire rifles (thinking assault rifles here -- I know the definition of assaultrifle, but I'm tired of being PC about it), have advantages in power, recoil control, optics options, etc. but are FAR louder than even 18.5" shotguns, are like flame throwers (an AK with surplus ammo isn't far behind a Mosin short rifle in the flash department).

You have to weigh your choices and choose according to your needs.
If your overiding descision factor is price, Mosins and their ammo are the cheapest centerfire option going (some people arre really in the situation of "buy a Mosin or buy nothing for a long time). Plus even hunting ammo (Wolf Gold, Barnaul, etc) softpoints are running about $10/20 -- cheaper than any other caliber out there. So the thing can do double duty in any locale that allows rifles, whereas in a lot of areas, the rifles optimal for killing people can't be legally used to kill deer.

Gustav
November 10, 2007, 06:15 PM
In 1891 it would have been a good choice by 1898 or 1914 not as good and by 1942 nearly every other design had more to offer IMO.

For a novice the bolt is slow and awkward to manipulate and reload it has a capacity of 4 plus 1 and uses a rimmed cartridge which unless one has a Finnish Mosin with the modified magazine well can cause an occasional failure to feed a round up to the bolt.

Rimmed rounds often hang up while using stripper clips.

As bolt actions go a Springfield or Mauser or Enfield (google mad minute) is faster to manipulate the bolt on or work the action.

For the average person who has neighbors in occupied dwellings nearby a .30 caliber high power rifle is not a good or safe choice to use since each shot fired can kill or maim and innocent neighbor and in so doing it gives the antis a good reason to complain.:fire:

Think over penetration and safe BACKSTOP when shooting!:banghead:

If you had no neighbors or lived in a box canyon and did not consider the action or rifle type to be a handicap then yes it may be the right choice for you.:rolleyes:

If it is all you can honestly afford then that is one thing but to be cheap and on purpose have one as a go to gun is IMO foolishness as there are better options and designs out there.

As a cabin or animal defense rifle yes but if there is a chance of armed confrontation no thanks, I would want a semi auto rifle or handgun or a lever action rifle at least.;)

FWIW personally I know of two men who owe their lives to an adversary using a Mosin Nagant rifle.

One is a Vietnam War veteran the other a Korean War veteran both of whom are still here today because the men they shot and killed were not able to get off a fast enough second shot using a Mosin Nagant.

One engaged and killed a VC pointman who fired first as they both crested a hill on a trail, he used his M-14 and emptied it into and towards the guy as he fell wounded by a bullet that went through his leg.

The other gentleman used his M-2 .30 Carbine successfully ending the threat after a Chinese soldier armed with a MN 1944 carbine shot first and missed my friend he did not get to work the action to get off a second round.

These are only my opinions worth what you paid for them not trying to flame or rain on anyones parade, just think common sense pick the best tool for the task at hand and safety is no accident.;)

Magnum88C
November 10, 2007, 06:25 PM
For a novice the bolt is slow and awkward to manipulate and reload it has a capacity of 4 plus 1 and uses a rimmed cartridge which unless one has a Finnish Mosin with the modified magazine well can cause an occasional failure to feed a round up to the bolt.
Finnish Mosin? No, they all have the cartridge interrupter to prevent rim locking.

Fosbery
November 10, 2007, 07:36 PM
I think everyone has said what I was going to say really. I wasn't saying the Mosin is useless for SHTF/home defence. It's just one of the worst firearms options you could choose. If it's that or a kitchen knife, then the Mosin is probably better. If it's a Mosin or a musket, I'd pick the Mosin. But if you can get anything else, it's probably better than a Mosin.

Gustav
November 10, 2007, 07:43 PM
Magnum88C

FWIW

The Finnish 28-30 (often marked HV) and M-39 Mosin Nagants have a modification of the magazine body or magazine well, it consists of basically two semi circular indentations or dimples to improve cartridge feeding and alignment for reliability.

It helps in preventing cartridge rim interference jams which occur when the top rounds base or rim catches behind the cartridge beneath its base or rim.

AFAIK only the Finn 28/30 and M-39 have this alteration and none of the other Mosin Nagants do.

Any .303 British or 7.62x54R rimmed ammunition shooter sooner or later can experience a jam when the round on tops rim gets caught behind the next round beneath its rim especially if rapid firing and reloading using stripper clips if any of the rounds end up being reloaded improperly or not properly loaded or lined up one in front of the other.

Novus Collectus
November 10, 2007, 08:12 PM
Gustav, I have a Russian M44 and it has the magazine interrupt keeping the rounds below the round to be fed seperate enough so the rims will not touch. It does not matter how they are fed into the mag, the rims will never interfere with the round to be fed.
I have read that all Mosin Nagants going back to the origional design have this feature.

TimboKhan
November 11, 2007, 02:23 AM
Wow, Magnum actually read my first post and saw that I was not advocating the Mosin as the best choice for home defense. I have literally said at least four times on this thread that it isn't even my first choice, or second, or even third.

But, with that aside, the discussion has remained fairly level-headed and interesting. Let me give my two cents on a couple of things:

1. I have already addressed penetration, and will not repeat myself. I suppose it is a personal ethos more than a practical one, because bullets fired from a firearm penetrate, period. Perhaps they penetrate differently, but the still penetrate.

2. I would also point out the flaw in this logic...
One engaged and killed a VC pointman who fired first as they both crested a hill on a trail, he used his M-14 and emptied it into and towards the guy as he fell wounded by a bullet that went through his leg.

Hey, I am glad your friend lived, but he dumped a whole mess of bullets into killing a guy and still got wounded. Perhaps for some this speaks of the advantage of more bullets, but to me it says that if the VC had aimed a bit more carefully, he would have gotten your buddy. As it was, he took him out of the fight. I certainly mean no disrespect to your buddy, and I am damn glad that the other guy died for his country instead of the other way around, but it seems faulty to imply the fight was won because of superior weaponry. I am going to get flamed for this, but it sounds like it was really more of a case of luck.

3. The other gentleman used his M-2 .30 Carbine successfully ending the threat after a Chinese soldier armed with a MN 1944 carbine shot first and missed my friend he did not get to work the action to get off a second round.

The Chinese soldier could have had anything from a Mosin to SKS to and AK and it still probably would ahve ended the same. It's better to shoot straight than shoot fast, and he made the mistake of missing. Again, not wishing it were the other way around, just pointing out that 1 round can end a fight if 100 rounds miss the target.

4. While not the only point I was trying to make, let me address the issue of cost. One of the things that I said was a plus for a Mosin was that someone could afford to buy the rifle and a whole ton of ammo to practice with. Regardless of the particular platform you choose (and this includes you shotgun advocates), nothing, and I mean nothing, makes a bigger difference than training. Most of us won't be attending a Thunder Ranch class anytime soon, but pretty much all of us can get out and shoot at least 100 rounds a month. With a Mosin, it just makes it cheaper. You might have the coolest blackticle rifle on the market, with the finest lasers and lights and optics available, but you know what? In the end it boils down to practice. What do you do if your AR stovepipes? What do you do if you hit a bad primer? If you don't know what to do with that bad round, the next 20 aren't going to make a single bit of difference. Anyway, the point of all this is to say that I can now buy roughly 5 times more 7.62x54 than I can .223 ammo for the same dollar. Whats the better platform then? I maintain that the Mosin that you practice with is better than the $2000.00 AR wondergun that you don't, but some of you may disagree.

5. Finally, let me see if we can get this past the whole "better options" available argument and get some more responses on the Mosin as a SHTF rifle (be it Zombies, Earthquakes, Fire or Weather). Earlier in the thread, a guy said that he was in Katrina and that he didn't feel that the Mosin would have been all that great because it would have been a pain to haul around. I can see his point, but I still think that the Mosin's ruggedness gives it a pretty big leg up. I will concede that it might be a pain to haul around, but it is a comfort to know that it will not lock up at the first hint of water, dirt or zombie guts. Not that a properly maintained AR will lock up, but the chances are higher than with a Mosin. Additionally, I don't think I personally want an auto if things get bad enough. It seems a little counter-intuitive to say that, but if I am not going to be able to get supplies and other stuff, I don't want a rifle that can lose not only it's mag, but 20 or 30 valuable rounds of ammo with it. If I am in a position where thats not such a big deal, I probably would go with an AR or an SKS, but I might not be in that position.

Magnum88C
November 11, 2007, 08:25 AM
Any .303 British or 7.62x54R rimmed ammunition shooter sooner or later can experience a jam when the round on tops rim gets caught behind the next round beneath its rim especially if rapid firing and reloading using stripper clips if any of the rounds end up being reloaded improperly or not properly loaded or lined up one in front of the other.
I understand your point, Gustav, but the cuts the Finns made are not what keeps the rims from locking, it's the interrupter. It;'s the little metal piece that pops out and keep the top round in the magazine separate from the ones below it. If the interrputer is functioning, the rounds CANNOT lock rims. I purposely loaded Mosins with the round having its rim BEHIND the round below, all fed flawlessly. I did this for 100 rounds, and am convinced it works. In fact it was a design necessity of the rifle. The reason we call them Mosin Nagants is because a Russian, Sergei Mosin designed the rifle, but the Imperial Russian government refused to accept the rifle unless it incorporated the interrupter designed by Leon Nagant, a Belgian. Now this rim lock jam CAn happen on Enfields and I've experienced it many a time, even when the rounds were loaded properly into the chargers.


5. Finally, let me see if we can get this past the whole "better options" available argument and get some more responses on the Mosin as a SHTF rifle (be it Zombies, Earthquakes, Fire or Weather). Earlier in the thread, a guy said that he was in Katrina and that he didn't feel that the Mosin would have been all that great because it would have been a pain to haul around. I can see his point, but I still think that the Mosin's ruggedness gives it a pretty big leg up. I will concede that it might be a pain to haul around, but it is a comfort to know that it will not lock up at the first hint of water, dirt or zombie guts. Not that a properly maintained AR will lock up, but the chances are higher than with a Mosin.
OK, in this type of circumstance, a Mosin is a good choice. I hear the wails of protest now "But it's slow! But it only has 5 rounds!" OK, let's look at the actual happenings in Katrina, not internet fantasies. FACT is, looters (multiple) were often ran off with the mere display of a gun, and in at least two instances I know of, a pair of shots fired from a revolver. Now, internet fantasy has them running around the corner, gearing up and executing a human wave attack because "they know you only have 4 rounds left.", and 4 guys are willing to take bullets so the others can take your TV and beer. Real life: looters ran away and didn't come back. Now people are going to tell me that they WON'T run from a rifle with a 12-17" bayonet on the end (depending on if you're using a long rifle or a short rifle), and shoots 3 feet of flame out of the end, and shakes the ground with its report?
Then there's some advantages to the Mosin. Reliability. So reliable that German troops were known to pick them up in preference to the much vaunted Mauser. Why? Because the Mausers would freeze up and were a bitch to get operating again. With the wide clearances on the Mosin, you just smack it hard a couple of times to break up the ice and you're back in business. Those clearances also make it very tolerant of muck and mud.
Power. When one of da homies dat want yo beer is poppin' caps at you from behind a cement block wall/barrier, one round will ruin his day.
Good sights for the mission. "WHAT!!!" Yep. Post and notch sights, just like the handgun you use for fast shooting at short range, except you have a longer sight radius, a two-handed weapon, and a flatter trajectory. "But they aren't good for 600 meter shooting!" True, but chances are, neither are you. Not a whole lot of people even have a place to practice at such ranges, and anyone that actually does that kind of shooting will tell you that if you don't practice regularly, you won't be able to make the hits. The vast majority of infantry combat happens at under 200 meters, with over 90% of it happening at under 100. Mosin sights are just fine for that kind of shooting. As a civilian, your engagements are most likely to be much shorter. Which brings us to snapshots. The Mosins make this easy with their round front sight hood. Just shoulder the weapon, use the sight hood as a "caveman EOTech" and fire. At close quarters (under 50 meters) the rear sights will be "close enough" without having to be exactly aligned.

Can most of this be said about certain other weapons? Sure. But this is about Mosins, and the fact is, they can do the job and can do it well, despite opinions to the contrary. You adapt your tactics to your weapon. Those who can't, and insist that everything HAS to run like their [pet rifle], won't do so well if they don't have that.

Additionally, I don't think I personally want an auto if things get bad enough. It seems a little counter-intuitive to say that, but if I am not going to be able to get supplies and other stuff, I don't want a rifle that can lose not only it's mag, but 20 or 30 valuable rounds of ammo with it. If I am in a position where thats not such a big deal, I probably would go with an AR or an SKS, but I might not be in that position.

Now, I'm going to divert a little from the strictly Mosin talk because you added this in. I'd trust an AK or a FAL to handle the roughest conditions just as much as I would a bolt gun. They've proven themselves reliable in the worst conditions for decades.
An AR, not so much.

xd45gaper
November 11, 2007, 08:32 AM
dont forget when you run out of ammo you can use it as a spear with that bayonet on the end!!

Acheron
November 11, 2007, 10:18 AM
I think Magnum88C brings up a lot of good points. The most important one is that any kind of realistic engagement would occur at 200m or less. I think that far too many people have tacticool dreams of being a sniper and making those 'one shot kills' at 800m. For these distances a Mosin will work just fine, and the sights are more than adequate. While I will admit that the Mosin doesn't have the best sights on the market, they about as good as an AK's.

In a SHTF situation like Katrina, where your opponents are most likely looters or gangbangers the mere sight of a M91/30 with the bayonet fixed should be enough to get most looters running. If they don't, then fire a shot. If that doesn't get 'em scrambling for cover then maybe Darwin has decided that their time has come.

I think that the Mosin will do just fine as a SHTF rifle and I would gladly take mine in such a situation.

Cosmoline
November 11, 2007, 06:20 PM
I gotta be ready for when Star goes rogue. Look at her giving me the stink eye. She knows what I ate for dinner last night!

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b52/Gussick/Fram2.jpg

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