[mugsie]

I reload because I enjoy it. That's the primary reason. I also reload because it helps me shoot tighter groups. So I was wondering, how does a military sniper, or any sinper for that matter, shoot tight groups with "factory" ammo? The military especially, they have such a wide variety of guns they can't possibly make custom ammo for each particular gun. What they do is make as perfect a round as they can and this I would think has to suffice for all guns. So if this is the case, then why do we need to custom load and tweak for every rifle we have? Couldn't I just load the max for each bullet, and as long as the brass is all exactly alike, the bullets weigh the same and the powder weight the same then that should be good enough right? It isn't though, cause a quarter inch at 100 yards is going to be a lot more at 500, 800 or 1000 yards. What am I missing here? Something to think about late at night people!:banghead:

[Linear Thinker]

Mugsie,

There is a huge difference between the military accuracy requirements and those of hadloaders. Snipers do not shoot tight groups - they shoot people. The chest presents an 18" target, that is the military's needed "group" size. Minute of Ivan, I used to call it. Perhaps "Minute of Abdul" nowadays.

The equipment that the military uses, including sniper rifles and ammo, are of good quality, but seldom of great quality. They do need to be reliable, rugged and consistent. The military's 308 ammo eg. M118 is consistent.

There are lots of romantic notions about snipers and accuracy. Never mind any of that.

Speaking of equipment - are you knowledgeable about military procurement? The military buys low bidder garbage more often than not. When I see sellers advertise "Mil-Spec", I cringe. But, I digress.
LT

[igpoobah]

I watched that deal last night on history channel; They showed the marine corps handmaking each sniper rifle and handloading each round for the snipers...

[jwr_747]

I know the military "hand loads" it's ammo for it's match teams,and may for some sniper use.but most "field issued" sniper ammo is factory made.it may be a better quality than plain old "grunt ammo" but just about all true mil-spec ammo will and does get the job done. lots of Nam snipers using GI issued ammo took only head shots,not many 1000yd shots "in the bush".where in the "sand box" body shots work.all mil-surp ammo I have ever shot ,even some 1921 dated 303 Brit stuff still shoots Minute of Man. jwr

[rcmodel]

I call shenanigan's on the History Channel.

I was a shooting team member of 5th. Army AMTU during the Vietnam war. We started the first 5th. Army Sniper School.

We reloaded for some of our 1,000 yard bolt-guns, because they were .30-378 Mag wildcats, and you couldn't buy factory ammo for them.

The 30-06 & .308 Sniper & Match rifles got GI Issue Match Grade ammo.

Yes, we hand-built our sniper rifles, but certainly not our ammo.

Our snipers, when deployed, would try to take as much Match ammo as possible, of the same lot number they had been shooting in practice. When they ran out, they had to find something else.

But that was then, the Army AMTU, not the Marine AMTU, and a long time ago.

Today, I imagine all Army & Marine snipers are shooting Black-Hills factory Match ammo in combat.

The stateside AMTU units simply cannot possibly be supplying all the snipers in Iraq and elsewhere, with custom hand-loaded ammo matched to each rifle.

It would be a logistics nightmare to keep them all supplied once they are scattered all over the world.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

[snuffy]

I watched that deal last night on history channel; They showed the marine corps handmaking each sniper rifle and handloading each round for the snipers...

What you saw them handloading were 300 win mag ammo for the 600 yard target range. Every branch of the service has a precision rifle team that competes against the other branches.

The snipers use a rem 700 sendero .308 sniper rifle, with standard .308 ammo. Their game is to be camoed and be stealthy so as to get closer to their target. So extreme accuracy is not required.

Also, notice the press the marines were using, a forster co-ax! The whole program was pro gun, and showed a realistic look at the art of handloading to produce more accurate ammo.

[mugsie]

So you people don't read - you get side tracked so easly. The question is why reload for tighter groups when one can go out, purchase match grade ammo and it should shoot as good as if not better than what we can reload for? I'm not talking about price etc., just tighter groups. It seems as though this reloading thing, tweaking in groups, is greatly exagerated. Well?

[Owens]

Match grade ammo is loaded optimum for the average rifle. Handloading for yours allows tuning of the rifle to get it's optimum, not the average.

[USSR]

The question is why reload for tighter groups when one can go out, purchase match grade ammo and it should shoot as good as if not better than what we can reload for?

mugsie,

Because that premise is clearly not the case. Federal Gold Medal Match shoots .75MOA in my FN SPR; my handloads shoot .39MOA.

Don

[rbernie]

More importantly, the field sniper knows that wind and distance are far greater variables to overcome than a one-quarter-to-one-half-MOA shot to shot variance in the ammo.

So if this is the case, then why do we need to custom load and tweak for every rifle we have? Couldn't I just load the max for each bullet, and as long as the brass is all exactly alike, the bullets weigh the same and the powder weight the same then that should be good enough right? Manufacturing tolerances on each part in each rifle conspire to ensure that no two rifles are identical, and therefore they will each react differently to a given load (which itself has tolerances in its components).

[snuffy]

Couldn't I just load the max for each bullet, and as long as the brass is all exactly alike, the bullets weigh the same and the powder weight the same then that should be good enough right? It isn't though, cause a quarter inch at 100 yards is going to be a lot more at 500, 800 or 1000 yards. What am I missing here? Something to think about late at night people!

When I first got my Bushmaster AR-15,(used), it came with a case and a half of rem yellow box 55 FMJ ammo. I tried some of it at 100 yds. OMG I thought the rifle was defective!:fire: The group resembled a shotgun buckshot pattern!:cuss: 3- 3.5 inches was the best that stuff would do. It did net me some good brass to start handloading though. That ammo qualifies for the above standard by mugsie. It started as new brass, powder, bullets, primers, loaded to max to fit in any rifle. Possibly it would shoot much better in some other platform.

My first attempt with handloads was a real treat to see what a quality bullet would do. I choose Hornadie's 60 grain v-max, just about perfect for the 1-9 twist the 20" bbl has. I immediately got slightly under an inch, further load development led to a few ¾ inch groups, most were at 7/8".

That's exactly why I handload. To milk the ultimate accuracy from every gun I own. If by handloading a combination that SHOULD shoot well, the gun doesn't shoot well, I don't own it for long. Such is the case with a .308 savage I'm working with now. It refuses to shoot much under 1.5 inches with any load I've tried. Current efforts are focused on the bedding, the factory stock bedding was awful. I've bedded the recoil lug and the receiver, now we'll see if that cured the problem.