[mick53]

Hi,

I have the feeling this may be an age old debate of some sort because I can't find any definitive answer(s).

Here's the deal; I'm about to buy a Taurus 651, 2" bbl with a shrouded hammer. It's steel and weighs 23oz.

I'm trying to figure out whether heavier or lighter weight bullets will have less recoil.

Did some searching here and elsewhere and their are a lot of opinions that are diametrically opposed. Stuff like:

"The heavier bullet will have more recoil because the heavier the bullet it, the more it will cause the barrel to flip as it exits the barrel blah, blah blah."

and:

"The lighter bullet will have more recoil because it will be exiting the barrel faster and blah, blah, blah."

Is there a definitive answer to this? I mean whatever the answer is, it is governed by physics, yes?

Now I realize there won't be ANY "mild recoiling" ammo for a 2" bbl, 23oz pistol but I'm sure some will have lighter recoil than others.

Any suggestions?

Thanks,

Mike

[eliphalet]

For every action there is an equal reaction IIRC is how it is stated. Kinda holds true for recoil, bullet weight and velocity. All things being pretty much equal a lighter bullet is going to need quite a bit of velocity to equal the recoil of a heaver bullet has been my hands on experience. Good chance if a guy can handle a 357 in 125 grain bullets 158 will be OK too. I have a 2" 357 and there doesn't seem to be a heck of a lot of felt difference but there is some.

Maybe start with a box of 38 Specials familiarize yourself with the gun and move up to 125 grain 357's, and on if you like.

[FLORIDA KEVIN]

I have a ruger speed six in 357 mag ! i feel that the heavier bullets cause more felt recoil than lighter ones for similar muzzle energy levels ! my barrel is only 2.75 inches ! I would expect similar results with a 2 inch barrel !

[RyanM]

There are two elements to recoil, which I usually call "snap" and "shove." They're pretty much what they sound like. Light and fast ammo will have more snap, less shove. Heavy and slow will have less snap, more shove. Heavy and fast, lots of both. Light and slow, little of either.

Some people are more tolerant of one form of recoil than another.

[Harley Quinn]

Perceived and real is where it is and a 2" 357 is a hand full for anyone.

Those who mention it is not, well... don't take their advise when considering your next purchase.:p

It makes sense to say a 125 grain is not going to kick like a 180 grain with the same pressure.
Divide 125 and 180 by 60 it will show you the consequence very quickly. That is real feeling right there.

[Walkalong]

You've got that right Harley!

[mick53]

Thanks guys,

One of the reasons I am considering the 651 is because it will also shoot .38spl and .38+p along with the .357s.

I'll try a few different types of .357 but from what has been said here, I may favor the heavier/slower.

I shoot a 1911 type .45 a lot and the recoil is mostly the backwards shove type with not a lot of muzzle flip. For me, this makes for quicker and more accurate follow up shots.

Guess I'll just have to shoot it a lot to figure out what I like. I just hate buying a bunch of different types of ammo to find out what I prefer. But it's necessary, I guess. At least now I have a base idea of where and what to start with.

If anyone else cares to weigh in on this, please do!

Thanks again,

Mike

[Surefire]

The 158 grain is my favorite bullet weight out of my SP 101 2".

Recoil is noticable, but IMO much less snappy than the 125 grain.

More overall recoil with the 158 grain IMO, but for me an easier recoil to get use to. I like the 158 grain loads so much that it is all that I use in my SP. In my GP, I will use loads as large as 200 grain.

[Walkalong]

Recoil is quite a bit more than .45 ACP. :uhoh:

[jaydubya]

Harley said: Perceived and real is where it is and a 2" 357 is a hand full for anyone. Those who mention it is not, well... don't take their advise when considering your next purchase.

Well said. There is no way around Newton's Second (I think) Law: "For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." The bigger the bang, the more plentiful the cuss words, and the longer it takes to get back on target for the next shot.
Cordially, Jack

[Jim March]

A lot of the 125 "combat loads" in 357 are loaded very wild...1,400fps from a 2" barrel is quite possible from some (Buffalo Bore, Doubletap). Those are gonna hurt.

Assuming the same net bullet energy, the heavier bullet will feel nastier. But it doesn't take a whole lot of extra energy to out-balance THAT effect.

If you want to really understand the relationship between bullet weight, bullet speed and energy, start here:

http://www.naaminis.com/energy.html

[rcmodel]

Recoil of a 158 grain @ 1,235 is both faster & harder then a 125 grain @ 1,450.

If you don't believe it, try this & plug in your own numbers.
http://www.handloads.com/calc/recoil.asp

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

[Walkalong]

You can get a less sharp/snappy recoil with heavier bullets, but you have to get the velocity down a good bit to beat lighter bullets on recoil.

[mick53]

Recoil is quite a bit more than .45 ACP.
__________________
Walkalong,

I realize this. I, like you, also have a 3" bbl .45 (Springfield Micro Compact) that is not bad at all recoil wise but it feels to me like most of the force is kinda just a straight back push and I really don't mind it.

I do the one ragged hole thing with it a lot of the time with 7rds at 20 feet. It's a real nice pistol. It weighs about 44 ounces fully loaded and that weight helps a lot.

I also have a S&W 586-7 which shoots .357s and yes, the recoil is more than the .45 and with with more muzzle rise than straight back push.

And the S&W has a 4" bbl and this little 651 has a 2" bbl. If it didn't also take
.38s I don't think I'd even buy the 651. But this way, if the .357 recoil is just too much I still have something to shoot out of it.

I was just trying to find out what .357 rounds have less "snappy muzzle rise" and more just "straight back push" out of a 2" revolver.

I mean I realize if I'm shooting one handed I won't be sipping tea out of a cup with the other hand. Nope, not hardly.

So let's rephrase the question some:

What .357rd will will tend to have more "straight back push" recoil as opposed to "sharp/snappy/ muzzle flip" type recoil?

mike

[Walkalong]

I realize this
Sorry. Sounded like you didn't know. My bad.

What .357rd will will tend to have more "straight back push" recoil as opposed to "sharp/snappy/muzzle flip" type recoil?
None that I have tried, but I have never liked full load .357's. They have always been snappy to me. I prefer the .44 with full loads to the .357 actually. I have a 2 1/2 " 686 as well as a 4" 686, so I could try some experimenting I guess.

I have noticed the recoil in 3" 1911's to be more straight back than the 4" and 5" guns. I think it is simply a matter of more slide weight coming back and leveraging the frame up and back with it on the 4" & 5" guns vs the 3" guns. I have owned two different 3" 1911's and they both seemed to have more of a straight back push than my longer barrelled guns. I had a L/W 5" gun and it was the worst for muzzle flip with the heavy slide and light frame. I did not like it and traded it off. I don't have that problem with my L/W Commander or my Kimber CDP II Ultra, with the Ultra being the best as far as recoil seeming to be more straight back.

Revolvers don't "eat up" any recoil with springs and slide movement, and we feel it all and the muzzle flip to go with it.

Bottom line is I don't know the answer to your question. My guess is heavy and slow. :)

[Surefire]

What .357rd will will tend to have more "straight back push" recoil as opposed to "sharp/snappy/muzzle flip" type recoil?

IMO...you're NOT going to find any full powered .357 magnum ammo with reduced muzzle flip. Perhaps you should look at "medium velocity" ammo.

For my hands, the heavier bullets feel less snappy... but they do produce more overall recoil and are slower to get second shots off.

If you're looking for LESS muzzle flip, you should be looking at a "medium velocity" load in the 125 grain range.

[mick53]

Sorry. Sounded like you didn't know. My bad.

Walkalong,

No problem bro, I guess I'm gonna have to shell out the dough to experiment myself and see what my personal preference is for .357s in it. People's opinions on this vary widely.

Hell, they're may not be a good alternative and I'll end up shooting .38s out of it. But I'll put some Hougue rubber on it too. That should help a bit.

Maybe I need to start shoving my right hand in and out of a bucket of sand like those kung fu dudes do.

Take care,

Mike

[Surefire]

IMO... try many loads in the chambering and practice. You'll find loads that work best for you eventually.

I see no reason a healthy adult cannot master full house .357 magnum loads once they have enough practice. To me, its a fairly low recoiling round. Especially compared to the *other* magnums (.44 magnum, .454 Casull, etc).

The .357 magnum is my favorite revolver round, and I shoot everything from 125 grain defense loads up to anti-bear 200 grain penetrators. They're all easy handling in a GP 100 once technique is mastered. In my SP 101, I generally stick with .38 special but sometimes shoot light to moderate .357 weight bullets--no problem here either. Practice is the key, IMO.

[mavracer]

One of the reasons I am considering the 651 is because it will also shoot .38spl and .38+p along with the .357s.
the same range is avalible from a recoil stand point,38 and 38+p are pretty managable in a 23oz gun,there are a few midrange 357 loads that have exelent reputations my faves are the 125 Remington golden saber and the Speer 135 short Bbl golddot these two are controlable I chose the remmies because they both shoot/perform about the same so price became the deciding factor.

[OAKVILLE SHOOTER]

I've got a Taurus 605 2" stainless that I have had for about 6 years. One of my favorite handguns. Using factory loads, I cannot tell any difference between 125 and 158 grn loads. While watching a friend shoot it, the muzzle rises reveral inches higher with 125 grn than 158. He also sees the same thing when I shoot it. So, we are both noticing more rise with the lighter bullet when acting as a bystnder, but not noticing any difference when acting as the shooter.

A 2" .357 mag can be a handfull, but can be controlled fairly easy, and even be fun:what:

[oscarswanson]

I have found that Remington Golden Sabers in .357 are more comfortable to shoot than any others I have tried.
They must be dummied down for a reason, but I'm not sure I know.
Maybe better follow up shots???

[Princi]

Recoil, rather the objection to it is an odd thing. I take a friend's wife to the range a couple of times a year. He let her shoot his Kimber .45ACP, and she hated it. Consequently, she flinches badly on anything that looks like a 1911. I have a STI Target Master in 9mm, and it doesn't really have any noticable recoil, and just a little muzzle flip, and she was shooting low with it.

I took a box of S&B 357 Mag, and put it into a box that said 38 Special on it. I then let her shoot it through the Taurus 608, which has a long barrel, is heavy and ported. She shot just fine with it. Before leaving the range I had her look at the cases, and she was amazed that she had been shooting a 357 Mag.

I also have a S&W 360PD, which weighs 11 OZ, and I've shot 357 Mag's in it. Very, very unpleasant experience. The trigger guard was banging into the top of my trigger finger just above the nail. I never want to shoot it again with 357 Mags in it.

What is the difference? The weight of the gun. If you cut the weight of the gun in half, the recoil doubles. If you double the weight of the bullet, velocity of the bullet, or weight of the powder, you will get 4 times the amount of recoil.

The other thing I've found about flinching is that it isn't always caused by recoil, but by the noise that the gun is making. Shooting the Bushmaster 97 pistol in 223 Rem is so loud that I've had people next to me shooting 22LR Buckmarks start flinching because of the noise.

[Grandpa Shooter]

I have a Taurus snub .38 and a Taurus snub .38/357. Both shoot well. It can be used either as a target pistol, or self defense. Since I reload, I started low with the .38 on load and bullet weight, and worked my way up. Got to where I couldn't tell you which I was shooting. My son however knew it painfully well. I used to compete with my buddies on a line of shotgun shells stuck mouth down in a sandbank. First one to the 5th shell, first on the other guy's side, was the winner. They never could figure out how come they lost so often. Difference was, I practiced a LOT, while they thought their gun was supposed to make up the difference.

Point of the anecdote.......practice, practice, practice-----there is no substitute. (Just had a thought here, wonder if all that practice is why my hands are so numb now?)