Will you survive the new "Warsaw Ghetto?"


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Topgun
July 16, 2003, 12:17 PM
A friend and I were discussing the movie, "The Pianist" yesterday and remarking on how 360,000 Jews were herded into just a few blocks by just a few Nazis. And how in many scenes the Jews were lined up and shot by just a few shooters.

We were thinking how just a damn BUTTER KNIFE in each Jew's hand stuck into the nearest Nazi would have stopped the executions and netted the Jews a whole bunch of guns and grenades.

........360,000 .............. Jews..........That is the size of an ARMY.

Then, my friend asked, "What's different today?" And I began to think.

NOTHING!

An ARMY of us pro-gunners are allowing a FEW gun Nazis to herd us into little skirmishes and we complain and whine and LET them. They whip our butts and we get a few victories......but they come back. None of those who are depriving us of liberty are DEAD!

And we allow people who are not NRA members to post on THR. (Any pro gun group would be acceptable)

But we are marching to the ghetto just as surely as the Jews did in Warsaw.

What's your opinion? Do you think THR should continue to allow those who do not help us to participate in the advantages of THR?

I rate them with enemy sympathizers.


(edited to exempt any who can not AFFORD to join NRA, etc. ....AND just an honor thing.....an UNOFFICIAL requirement......Cuz we need everybody..)

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DigitalWarrior
July 16, 2003, 12:49 PM
First, Diversity of Opinion is a good thing. I want to hear an intelligent gun-grabber, if one exists, and they happen to wander over here.

Second, don't you think that there are things you could do other than give money to an organization?

OEF_VET
July 16, 2003, 01:15 PM
I'm a member of the NRA, but I don't believe such a membership should be a requirement for using this sight. If Oleg (remember afterall, it is his site) started requiring gun organization memberships, that would be discriminating against like-minded people who, for various reasons of their own, have declined to join some group.

Besides, just how would the moderators verify membership?

Frank

Thumper
July 16, 2003, 01:15 PM
"We?"

Far as I know, this is Oleg's site. Bet I know his opinion on this.

MJRW
July 16, 2003, 01:22 PM
"And we allow people who are not NRA members to post on THR. (Any pro gun group would be acceptable)"

The sub-humans post here?!?! The absurdity of it! I nominate you for Oberstgruppen-F├╝hrer of the Gun Gestapo.

seeker_two
July 16, 2003, 01:27 PM
Topgun: I have a question. What would you consider a "pro-gun" organization?

NRA?
JPFO?
Libertarian Party?
Republican Party?
Christianity? ("...take up your sword...")
Islam?


We all SHOULD do something to promote pro-2A, pro-BOA, pro-freedom ideas. But I'm against making it MANDATORY to join an "approved" organization to participate here. And while I would probably fit the requirement (NRA membership), I would QUIT this board if it became mandatory. :fire:

"Required volunteerism" is conscription. And conscripts make the worst in any organization...

P.S. As far as I know, the Jews didn't resist the Nazis or the Arabs with NRA membership cards...:rolleyes:

willyjixx
July 16, 2003, 01:30 PM
personnaly....the day you tell me to "join" the cause an fork out some dough oe else..... i hit the road. not because your making me give money but your "telling" what i need to do to "belong". that is what i think is wrong. but i will give you something more precious than paper money. i will give you my time, my vote, my passion, my loyalty if you promise to uphold an support what i enjoy an what we believe in.

Thanks for the site Oleg. I know im not alone

Pebcac
July 16, 2003, 01:31 PM
THR is a discussion board, open to both sides, not a membership drive.

Soviet "citizens" were all card-carrying members of the Communist party - because they had to be. Freedom is about exercising rights without prerequisites.

I'm an NRA member, and I encourage all gun-owners and gun-rights supporters to join; if not NRA, then some other organization. I don't, however, advocate restricting discussion with those that choose not to.

Edited to add: I understand the parallel that's being attempted with the subject line, but still I personally find it offensive. Those people were herded up like cattle and slaughtered by the Nazis. Then, my friend asked, "What's different today?"What's different is that Sarah Brady (or anybody else in the gun-control camp) doesn't likely have ghettos and concentration camps in mind for gun owners. This kind of sensationalist screeching is in the same vein as the "save the children" arguments from gun-control advocates, and it weakens the argument.

Drjones
July 16, 2003, 02:06 PM
What's different is that Sarah Brady (or anybody else in the gun-control camp) doesn't likely have ghettos and concentration camps in mind for gun owners. This kind of sensationalist screeching is in the same vein as the "save the children" arguments from gun-control advocates, and it weakens the argument.

Really?

There's that colorful little quote from rosie saying that she doesn't think that gun owners have rights.

MJRW
July 16, 2003, 02:15 PM
Rosie hardly qualifies as someone able to make that happen.

.45Ruger
July 16, 2003, 02:35 PM
I believe that it would be close minded and hypocritical to require membership to anything in order to participate in this sight. This is the high road after all. I am a member of the NRA and GOA, but only because I choose to be, not because I have to be. If we are to promote a free exchange if ideas, thoughts and info. here the sight must be open to everyone.

Boats
July 16, 2003, 02:39 PM
If the lead post is any indication, perhaps we should instead require the passage of an English composition examination as a prerequisite to posting here.:evil:

JohnBT
July 16, 2003, 02:55 PM
Let's see...375,000 or so Jews lived in Warsaw at the beginning of the war. The estimated population of the WG was about 500,000 at the beginning.

And you think a few Nazis herded that many people into a few blocks? Time for you to do some real research and quit looking at Hollywood history on film. Also look up the stats on which side had the guns and armor and planes and food and medicine.

John...NRA Member

4v50 Gary
July 16, 2003, 02:59 PM
I voted middle ground (OK, THR should allow ennybuddy to vote).

The question is somewhat like the problem facing the Confederacy during the War of the Rebellion (as distinguished between the Confederacy of the United States in the Revolution against Great Britain). They needed a strong federal government but that ran against the grain of the "confederacy" and states rights.

No, allow anybody to post and participate. We're not going to turn into some sort of "elite" or "us" against less believers.

Dizos
July 16, 2003, 03:18 PM
Why stop there? We should ban everybody who doesn't agree with you on everything. Be careful or you will become that which you hate.

This forum is a great opportunity for people with different opinions to communicate.

-- Jeff

Topgun
July 16, 2003, 03:23 PM
It was a foolish idea.

Smacks of "militancy."


Forget it. Go shooting with what they allow you to shoot today.

Have fun!

David Park
July 16, 2003, 03:23 PM
I'm amused by the concept that people who don't belong to a gun rights organization are seen as "enemy sympathizers", but the folks who sit on their butts all year but send a few bucks to the NRA are somehow freedom fighters. To continue the original analogy, is the NRA really different than the Jewish leaders (Judenrat) who tried to work with the Nazis and seek "compromise" solutions? Aaron Zelman makes the same point here:
http://www.jpfo.org/speech.htm

If/when the "ghettos" appear and the shooting starts, how many NRA members will really stand and fight, and how many will sit back and say, "Sorry, I'm too busy, but I'll give $35 to Wayne LaPierre to fight in my place"?

Carlos Cabeza
July 16, 2003, 04:02 PM
If efforts to bring new shooters to the sport and meticulous attention to safety training aren't enough then :rolleyes: . We need voters who support RKBA issues, not discriminatory requirements for acceptance.

winstonsmith
July 16, 2003, 04:11 PM
I'm an enemy sympathizer because I don't belong to the N.R.A.? You don't even know me!

"Do you think THR should continue to allow those who do not help us to participate in the advantages of THR?"

I'm not helping you participate in the high road? Help yourself man, you're the one who wants to exclude people because we don't belong to a list of approved groups.

How about this. Go sit in your basement alone. Then you'll have what you want. Everyone in the room will agree with you on every point. There will be no diversity of opinion or thought.

Or you can accept other people. Even the ones who aren't with the "approved" groups.

gunsmith
July 16, 2003, 04:16 PM
and sometimes get pissed off at both!
but I keep it to myself to maintain an illusion of a
united movement.
most folks only know the NRA is pro gun and
name recognition is important,but the middle of road
centrist position doesn't thrill me.
I like the GOA but butting heads with the NRA
doesn't thrill me.:rolleyes:

"can't we all get along?"

tommytrauma
July 16, 2003, 04:32 PM
I let my NRA membership lapse because I got tired of all the junk mail, unsolicited merchendise, etc. cluttering up my mail box. I am, however, quite active politically regarding RKBA. I write my reps regularly, call periodicially, and have even arranged to meet with them regarding RKBA issues. I've printed and distributed flyers in support of both CCW in my state and the AWB sunset. I don't patronize businesses (such as Levi Strauss) that support gun control, and I write to let them know why they're not getting my money. I wear my Molon Labe shirts, and use them as a springboard to share my views on RKBA with non-gunners.

All in all, I spend more of my money and much more of my time supporting RKBA than many NRA members do. But, because I don't maintain a membership in a 'gun rights group', Topgun considers me to be an "enemy sympathizer".:rolleyes:

Sorry sparky, I come to this board for intelligent discourse, not simply to share dogma with "like minded people".

686+
July 16, 2003, 04:33 PM
The only 2 requirement should be an oppen mind and a brain that is capable of thought. Anything else defeats the purpose of this board.

winstonsmith
July 16, 2003, 04:43 PM
You said it, 686.

JohnBT
July 16, 2003, 04:57 PM
I'm amused because he's amused...

John...NRA Member & VCDL Member

Cosmoline
July 16, 2003, 05:04 PM
So in any free exchange of views, we will prevail. I was an anti not too many years ago, and it was the calm arguments of a gun owner who turned me around. Not all at once, but over the course of years as I thought about them more and learned about the world.

Let the antis close their doors to us. They do it all the time. Why? Because they fear us. We have NOTHING to fear from them coming over and giving their views. If we take the high road and respond with reasoned arguments, we will prevail.

Oleg Volk
July 16, 2003, 05:37 PM
No, THR will not require membership in any organization!

MJRW
July 16, 2003, 05:50 PM
Oleg, don't hold back. How do you really feel?

brookstexas
July 16, 2003, 05:56 PM
Too many gun owners on here that AREN'T members of any pro gun groups.
Maybe after reading awhile they will figure out they need to be involved.
BT

Ex-Doc
July 16, 2003, 05:56 PM
Doesn't THR require membership in THR? Let's expand THR to be more than a discussion....how many participating members here? Just a thought...now Im done.....never mind...

I am amused that you are amused 'cause he's amused.....:D

Nightfall
July 16, 2003, 06:05 PM
So how exactly do you plan on introducing new shooters to the fight to stay free? Are you going to turn away all the new people interested in learning shooting, but aren't a member of a gun rights organization first? The middle of the road people who want to hear our side? Are you going to require they join the NRA before they ask questions and try to discuss issues with us? The gun owner who has a safety question but isn't a NRA member will be shown the THR door?

Great idea. What a wonderful way to bring more people over to our side, and encourage discussion. Having only people who agree with you around is a very good way to stimulate intellectual growth as well! :rolleyes:

Sam Adams
July 16, 2003, 06:23 PM
However well-intentioned this idea, it is simply wrong.

1) We are attempting to reach as many people as possible. If we require NRA or GOA, etc. membership, all that will be done is to preach to the choir. How do you reach fence-sitters who come here with questions?

2) I, for one, recoil at the idea of forced membership on any internet site. That's why I don't subscribe to any sites - this is a national or international conversation, and I won't pay for the "privilege" of spouting off, let alone merely lurking.


Regarding "How is it different this time?":

1) The people in the Warsaw Ghetto didn't know until it was too late what was happening. Ditto most of the victims of German genocide, Jewish or not. Now we know the depths to which human morality can fall, and we can be prepared accordingly.

2) America ain't Europe - we have guns, LOTS of them, and a history of using them against tyrants. In addition, we know how to use them - unlike most of those rounded up and murdered in Europe. I'd say that most of the people on THR or other gun sites would only give up their guns when the guns have a higher temperature than their bodies. The oppressor will bleed rivers of blood before he even begins to approach "success" in his operations - and the leaders would not be exempt, just as animals like Heydrich were not immune during WW2.

telewinz
July 16, 2003, 06:36 PM
Although I have been pro-gun most of my life, I have not been a member of ANY special interest group including the NRA. The most effective actions I can take to help insure a healthy 2nd amendment is to introduce people to firearms and VOTE for progun issues and politicians. I don't need the United Way to help the poor so why do I need the NRA to support the 2nd amendment. I am a member of the NRA, but for how long I don't know. I do know I am doing my share to support ALL my rights. I feel I get alot of bang for the buck with the NRA, no one does it better than they.

We should SEEK opposite views, it does us a great service in the long run, it helps sharpen your mind and the defense of the 2nd amendment

Topgun
July 16, 2003, 06:53 PM
Guess I just overreacted to the stuff in this month's American Rifleman.

I am heading back to MY history books that say Germany would have WON the war in Europe if the euro banks hadn't convinced Roosevelt to make Pearl Harbor possible so the informed Americans would insist on joining the fight.

I am gonna make a bundle. Opening a bait shop tonite.

:D

Thumper
July 16, 2003, 07:02 PM
convinced Roosevelt to make Pearl Harbor possible

Yeah, polio victims are known for their prowess at the stick of a Zero.

seeker_two
July 16, 2003, 07:08 PM
No, THR will not require membership in any organization!


Are you giving us a subtle hint as to your decision, Oleg?...:D

Thanks for all you do....

MicroBalrog
July 16, 2003, 07:11 PM
I can name, off the top of my head, 10 guys who were more useful for the RKBA than most NRA members - without being members of any group. One of them owns this site.

rick_reno
July 16, 2003, 07:53 PM
I'm no longer a member of the NRA. I saw little reason to continue to support them when all they were doing was negoiating my rights away. I'll leave THR if the consenus thinks I don't belong.

Majic
July 16, 2003, 10:33 PM
The question sounds like promoting segregation with a hint of communism in it. Then putting it in the form of a poll to use democracy. I'm trying to see your point, but don't agree with your solution. Free speech is one thing that everyone should be allowed, even if you don't agree with content.

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