IRAQ: Short Shotgun Replaces Bayonet


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rc135
November 5, 2007, 04:20 PM
SHORT SHOTGUN REPLACES THE BAYONET: After several years of research and field testing, the U.S. Army is buying 38,000 M26, 12 Gauge Modular Accessory Shotgun Systems (MASS). The M26 weighs less than three pounds (2 pounds, 11 ounces) and has a five-round magazine. The M26 is a 16.5” long, 12 gauge shotgun and can be operated right or left handed. It fires solid shot for blasting open closed doors, or lower velocity, non-lethal (most of the time) rubber slugs for dealing with hostile crowds without killing people. A stand-alone version weighs 4 pounds, 3 ounces, and is 24” long (with the attached stock collapsed).

Troops have been testing it in combat for about a year. There were complaints about the cocking mechanism, which uses a bolt instead of a pump action (which many troops expressed a preference for). The final design will improve the cocking mechanism, and improve the reliability of the magazines. Currently, troops use a conventional (Mossberg) 12 gauge shotgun for getting locked doors open in a hurry. The M26 proved very reliable during testing, with over 15,000 rounds being fired. Large quantities of the M26 will be reaching the troops next year.


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KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 04:36 PM
but....but....NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! *splutters incoherantly about the end of an era and tradition*

ClickClickD'oh
November 5, 2007, 04:44 PM
So, I go lookign for info on this thing... and find this...

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=156_1194093011

I'm sorry, but they can't be firing anything but primers in that video. Weak. Demonstrate with full strength rounds.

buzz_knox
November 5, 2007, 04:46 PM
The bayonet isn't being replaced. This is just another tool in the arsenal. It was developed because breachers were having issues with sometimes being the first person in but not having the appropriate weapon. So, you hang the breaching tool under the "social" tool. Short barreled shotguns have been in use this way for a while, but this is the dedicated variant.

Jeff White
November 5, 2007, 04:47 PM
A search in the Shotguns forum should bring up a thread on this shotgun when it was first fielded.

Jeff

alucard0822
November 5, 2007, 04:47 PM
an extra couple pounds on the tac rail oughta be fun, now all they have to do is mount an m9 on the side, and you can compete in 3 gun, with a "single" firearm. I would probably get some funny looks at the trap range if I showed up with this thing on my AR:D


here she is:
http://peosoldier.army.mil/factsheets/SW_IW_M26.pdf

jlbraun
November 5, 2007, 04:49 PM
now all they have to do is mount an m9 on the side, and you can compete in 3 gun, with a "single" firearm

OK, that's funny. I don't care who you are.

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 04:51 PM
why not use a select fire saiga? with a 25 round mag:evil:

mljdeckard
November 5, 2007, 05:00 PM
Replacing a bayonet? Don't think so. They guy who wrote that was guessing, there is not a single project manager in the DOD who would say that the military is trying to replace a bayonet with a firing weapon. A bayonet doesn't jam. It doesn't fail to fire when wet. You don't run out of rounds for it. If you are smart enough to fix it to the rifle, it will work until you break it.

I did roll my eyes the other day, watching some guys play "Gears of War", in which you actually have a chainsaw bayonet. hold down 'b', charge, and blood flies accross the screen. I was relieved, it had been a while since I had been reminded why I don't have time for video games.

halfacop
November 5, 2007, 05:09 PM
I was relieved, it had been a while since I had been reminded why I don't have time for video games.

Amen - deckard!

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 05:37 PM
bah gears of war is a crappy game anyhow. Call of Duty on the other hand.....

ClickClickD'oh
November 5, 2007, 05:42 PM
Call of Duty on the other hand.....Meh..

Two was great. Three was retarded. Literally.. the friendly AI was retarded. After an hour I knew the whole development of the game. The whole german army (none of which are equiped with K98s because we know the whole german army was equipped with subguns and semi-auto rifles) is on one side of a brick wall, but you can't shoot them because there's some dumb idiot Canadian who keeps walking back in forth in front of your muzzle every time you line up a shot. Only redeeming factor.. The MG42 at the bridge... Fun. Otherwise, three was epic fail.

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 05:50 PM
Finest Hour=WAAAAAAAY too hard
big red one=too short but lots of fun
havnt played cod3 yet

Deer Hunter
November 5, 2007, 05:56 PM
The only way to play CoD games is on the hardest setting.

and back on topic we shall a-go!

The shotgun looks a bit smaller than the original "masterkey" system, but that bolt does seem awkward. And the video posted above was either sad, or the new shotgun has one hell of a muzzlebreak.

mljdeckard
November 5, 2007, 06:04 PM
(What have I started?:D

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 06:08 PM
deckard, we now blame you for global warming, world hunger, and causing us to delve into the world of video games:D:neener:

ClickClickD'oh
November 5, 2007, 06:09 PM
(What have I started?Mac or PC?

rugerdude
November 5, 2007, 06:10 PM
Oh man, that thing is ugly.

I almost want them to design a rifle that the shotgun is either an integral part of, or is built to accept the shotgun attachment.

HOW MANY THINGS CAN WE INVENT TO BOLT ONTO AN AR?!?!?!?!?!

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 06:11 PM
HOW MANY THINGS CAN WE INVENT TO BOLT ONTO AN AR?!?!?!?!?!

that thread has been done. again and again and again.











and again.

Deer Hunter
November 5, 2007, 06:11 PM
Hmm....

What about bolting ANOTHER M16 to an M16? That should make people stop whining about the weakness of the round.

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 06:14 PM
im sure thats been done too. i saw the pic of two 870's bolted together like some crazy tacticool side by side.

Titan6
November 5, 2007, 06:18 PM
The bayonet isn't being replaced.

Dropped more like it. Fewer and fewer units have been deploying with them. On this weapon it will not fit as the bayonet lug is covered by the shotgun and therefore you can not mount a bayonet. So the author is correct.

Bayonets are as useful as a musket in modern combat.

Deer Hunter
November 5, 2007, 06:21 PM
im sure thats been done too. i saw the pic of two 870's bolted together like some crazy tacticool side by side.Hmmm, hey, that sounds like a pretty good idea! ;)

ClickClickD'oh
November 5, 2007, 06:28 PM
Bayonets are as useful as a musket in modern combat.Better star issuing muskets to the Brits then since they used their bayonets in the current conflict.

KiltedClaymore
November 5, 2007, 06:32 PM
go find my thread about slaying pumpkins, including one that was bayonetted.

JHansenAK47
November 5, 2007, 07:00 PM
The smart thing to do would be to change the bayonets role. Take the new Marine Corps bayonet the blade is made of 1095 and will take a good edge. The bayonet it replaced was made of soft steel that couldn't take an edge. The idea being you could issue a bayonet and use it as a tool for opening MREs, cutting 550 cord and any other little task you would need it for. That way if you needed to do crowd control for a riot you could still fix bayonets and if you needed it for anything else you are good to go. The bayonet is not obsolete it just needs an expanded role past fix bayonets.

TheLastBoyScout
November 5, 2007, 08:17 PM
Bayonets are as useful as a musket in modern combat.

This just cements my desire to decap a silhouette using my bayonet next time the opportunity presents itself in a match or practice...

Avenger29
November 5, 2007, 08:36 PM
What about bolting ANOTHER M16 to an M16? That should make people stop whining about the weakness of the round.

Thank, you, Tromix (http://www.tromix.com/Welcome.htm)

Go to the Tromix Projects link on the left side of the page, and scroll down a little bit.

Siamese .223

The latest and most insane creation by Tromix is this Siamese 223 for LAW Enforcement only. The synergistic exchange of gas tubes forces the expanding gasses from the lower rifle to the top rifle allowing it to cycle a cartridge into the top breach then fire when the bolt is closed. The gas from the top rifle is then sent back down to the lower rifle where the first empty round gets ejected and a new cartridge is loaded into the breach. It is a wicked wild ride when fired FULL AUTO.

doc2rn
November 5, 2007, 09:43 PM
When I was with the 2nd Mar Div they said you couldn't even sharpen the bayonet because to use it was considered cruel and unusal punishment to the person being killed. Most I saw where broken from trying to use the wire cutter on them, anyway. I think the K-bar is a better weapon system than the bayonet.

20nickels
November 5, 2007, 10:11 PM
The underslung shotty is a good idea however that one looks like a forward heavy jammo-matic. Why not a single shot?

AWMP
November 5, 2007, 10:13 PM
great yet more weight to carry around, always looks better on powerpoint

The Deer Hunter
November 5, 2007, 10:23 PM
"It only weights 2 lbs. 11 oz."

That may not be a lot on paper, but things get heavier the longer you carry them.... I'm sure having a shotgun under your M16 will not only throw off your balance but also be awkward to hold the gun to shoot it properly.

JHansenAK47
November 5, 2007, 10:30 PM
When I was with the 2nd Mar Div they said you couldn't even sharpen the bayonet because to use it was considered cruel and unusal punishment to the person being killed.
I was always told they make the bayonets soft so they stay dull. That way when you stab someone it won't go pierce bone and will bounce off instead. That way the bayonet would be easier to pull out. I was told that by several different marines including an old gunny that trained Navy Seals, SWAT and Force Recon. Besides the old bayonets don't sharpen at all. They are worse than a cheap boy scout knife.

The Deer Hunter
November 5, 2007, 10:33 PM
Yeah, but a point piece of metal will still stick into someone.

Ever heard:"A dull blade is more dangerous than a sharp blade"?

20nickels
November 5, 2007, 10:34 PM
I tossed this idea around years ago and concluded that anything multishot was just too unweildy.

Deer Hunter
November 5, 2007, 10:41 PM
The M1 Carbine bayonet I just found at a garage sale (one dollar! Woot!) seems to have taken an edge very nicely... Then again, it's from WWII.

Titan6
November 5, 2007, 10:50 PM
This just cements my desire to decap a silhouette using my bayonet next time the opportunity presents itself in a match or practice...

Go right ahead. When you throw your sites off and bend your stock (or your barrel) I am sure you will find a new appreciation for the underslung shotgun.

That may not be a lot on paper, but things get heavier the longer you carry them.... I'm sure having a shotgun under your M16 will not only throw off your balance but also be awkward to hold the gun to shoot it properly.

No more (and certainly less) than a M203. The question is "Is it worth it" the answer is "almost certainly". Remember most engagement ranges will be under 100 meters. What would you rather have when clearing a room; .223 or 12 Ga? I am kind if thinking that the 12Ga has a little more punch...

The underslung shotty is a good idea however that one looks like a forward heavy jammo-matic. Why not a single shot?

One is almost never enough. Besides it does not jam easily.

great yet more weight to carry around, always looks better on powerpoint

Given the choice of:
- A full size 12Ga (in place of or in addition to M4) or
- An M9 + ammo + mags or
- Underslung 12Ga

I have to go with the last... Powerpoint and all.

This has been a long time coming and is the right thing to do.

JHansenAK47
November 5, 2007, 10:53 PM
Try putting an edge on an Ar15 bayonet. Unless you got one of the new ontario bayonets in 1095 carbon steel it ain't happening. They just won't stay sharp.

alucard0822
November 5, 2007, 10:55 PM
I think loading that thing up with: entry round, flashbang, frag grenadeX3 might be handy. Blow the door, stun em, and if they start shooting back, fire a couple frags. Basically a mini M203, but can fire multiple special purpose shells quickly.

Loading up on the tac-rail stuff would make it hard to effectivly use a bayonet anyway, you might be able to push, or jab, but you could forget any butt strikes, slashes, blocks or to pare against an attack.

The Canuck
November 5, 2007, 11:17 PM
I was always told they make the bayonets soft so they stay dull. That way when you stab someone it won't go pierce bone and will bounce off instead. That way the bayonet would be easier to pull out. I was told that by several different marines including an old gunny that trained Navy Seals, SWAT and Force Recon. Besides the old bayonets don't sharpen at all. They are worse than a cheap boy scout knife.

This is why we in the Canadian Forces never used bayonets. We were issued "Rifle Mountable Fighting Knives". :p There was a rules of war convention that proscribes the use of sharpened bayonets... When we have a stuck knife we just squeeze the trigger...

By the way, wasn't there a "master key" in use under m16s at one time?

Deer Hunter
November 6, 2007, 12:36 AM
http://www.arniesairsoft.co.uk/projects/scifi/billym16.jpg

That's the original Masterkey. I don't think the guy comes with it, though. :)

20nickels
November 6, 2007, 10:38 AM
Titan6, "One is almost never enough. Besides it does not jam easily."

Yes, but don't forget you have a rifle attached to that shotty. Could you please cite a reference testifying to it's cycling reliability? Tks

ClickClickD'oh
November 6, 2007, 11:08 AM
What would you rather have when clearing a room; .223 or 12 Ga? I am kind if thinking that the 12Ga has a little more punch...Now now, ask the question properly.

"what would you rather have when clearing a room; an automatic .223 or a bolt action 12 gauge?

I'm going with the auto.

GTSteve03
November 6, 2007, 02:02 PM
The underslung shotty is a good idea however that one looks like a forward heavy jammo-matic. Why not a single shot?
Indeed. Why make it needlessly complex? Now you have TWO bolts you have to work on your rifle. A single (or maybe a short double-barrel... hmmm!) mounted under the rail that's light weight and guaranteed to work. Just eject the spent shell(s), pop in a fresh one or two for later. Why are you going to the trouble to fire multiple shotgun shells when you have a perfectly good AR15 to shoot poodles with up top? ;)

The Deer Hunter
November 6, 2007, 05:39 PM
No more (and certainly less) than a M203. The question is "Is it worth it" the answer is "almost certainly". Remember most engagement ranges will be under 100 meters. What would you rather have when clearing a room; .223 or 12 Ga? I am kind if thinking that the 12Ga has a little more punch...


Yeah, well, I wouldn't want an M203 on my gun either....But the shotgun part is a bolt action, If I were clearing a room I wouldn't want just one shot of 00, plus I think its more designed for door breaching, so you might only be issued slugs or those new disintegrating slugs that don't throw lead at you. If the military wanted a combat shotgun they would just issue shotguns(and they do...). Although, you might be able to get away with getting off a shot with the shotgun and at the same time be able to use your rifle with your other hand.

I just think it is more unwieldy how far down from the gun it comes and how you would have to hold it. I would like to hear your experience shooting it, though. From the video, it appeared as though the guy didn't take to much time working the bolt, is the one you shot similar?

The Deer Hunter
November 6, 2007, 05:50 PM
Oh and to the original poster, do you have a source to this article? I would really appreciate it.

Jorg Nysgerrig
November 6, 2007, 05:53 PM
Not the OP, but here's the source: http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20071104.aspx

littlegator
November 6, 2007, 06:06 PM
When I was with the 2nd Mar Div they said you couldn't even sharpen the bayonet because to use it was considered cruel and unusal punishment to the person being killed.

Not to dispute what you were told, but since when did the 8th amendment apply to foreign combatants/enemies?

Titan6
November 6, 2007, 06:22 PM
Yes, but don't forget you have a rifle attached to that shotty. Could you please cite a reference testifying to it's cycling reliability? Tks

Sadly I can not, other than what the military claims. Everyone that I have talked to says thiers works just fine. Maybe I can post a review in January after more use.

"what would you rather have when clearing a room; an automatic .223 or a bolt action 12 gauge?

Actually no. M4s are select fire, not fully automatic. This is partly a personal preference thing I think. Partly I don't want my rounds going out a window an extra 500 meters and causing collateral damage by shooting some kid. Partly not shooting through the target and hitting an unitended target. Partly an easy way to open doors. M4s are used plenty for room clearing but are not always the best solution for everything.

Yeah, well, I wouldn't want an M203 on my gun either....But the shotgun part is a bolt action, If I were clearing a room I wouldn't want just one shot of 00, plus I think its more designed for door breaching, so you might only be issued slugs or those new disintegrating slugs that don't throw lead at you. If the military wanted a combat shotgun they would just issue shotguns(and they do...). Although, you might be able to get away with getting off a shot with the shotgun and at the same time be able to use your rifle with your other hand.

Okay. Pictue this. You get your shotgun, leave the FOB and head to town to raid an apartment building. When you get there you start recieving fire from the rooftops about 200 meters away. Hmm.. now that Mossberg seems to be lacking a little does it not? But no fear we have the M4 on top.

But more importantly also consider less lethals... You can transition seemlessly from less lethals to lethals without changing weapons, ammo or even sight picture.

There are tons of other advantages as well. Don't worry I am sure NY, IL and California will ban them soon enough and then you all can clamor for them as essential to liberty.

revjen45
November 6, 2007, 07:25 PM
The Tromix would seem to be an adaptation of the Gast system. The Russians used the 2-bbl systen with each operating the other for aerial cannons.

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