Rifle as Home Defense?


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P95loser
November 6, 2007, 05:23 PM
From reading several threads, it seems like several people here use rifles for home defense. I cannot understand why one would want to grab an AR to navigate through your house at night rather than a glock.

If your first instinct is to grab for that long gun, chime in as to why!

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jlbraun
November 6, 2007, 05:26 PM
Higher capacity. More powerful. More accurate. Easier to shoot faster.

P95loser
November 6, 2007, 05:27 PM
Right, but you also have over-penetration with 223 compared to 357... and you have longer guns to try and get around that corner with.

I myself use a revolver, but that is just because my wife is more familiar with point and click.

Cosmoline
November 6, 2007, 05:29 PM
I prefer the rifle because it's the biggest baddest weapon I have. If I had an RPG I might use that instead. I also know how hard it is to hit things in real life at night with a short gun. There are many very extensive threads debating this issue. Suffice it to say the convenional wisdom re. overpenetration doesn't really jibe with reality. The long gun offers you more control over what happens to your projectile on impact.

ArmedBear
November 6, 2007, 05:30 PM
Some people can't hit anything with a pistol. That's a good reason.

Others think that someone hit at point blank range with a couple of 9mm pre-cut hollowpoints won't even feel it. Can't say. Never been shot.

Some people just like carbines better. Good enough.

However, in my place, a pistol allows me to take cover a LOT better and maneuver around a lot of sharp corners and a couple of narrow stairways. And I can hit something with it. I'm fine with using a pistol as my first option.

That doesn't mean I don't have loaded magazines for a carbine.

rcmodel
November 6, 2007, 05:30 PM
Cause the chances of hitting & stopping an intruder with one shot is about 10 times better then with a handgun & pistol caliber.

It is much harder for someone to disarm you with a rifle/carbine then it is with a handgun.

It makes a much better impact weapon then a Glock if the BG turns out to be the neighbors drunk 17 year old sneaking in the wrong house at 2:00 AM.

And you decide not to shoot him.

And he wants to argue about who in in the wrong house, you or him.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

ArmedBear
November 6, 2007, 05:34 PM
Cause the chances of hitting & stopping an intruder with one shot is about 10 times better then with a handgun & pistol caliber.


Empirical evidence for this number?

TexasRifleman
November 6, 2007, 05:35 PM
Right, but you also have over-penetration with 223 compared to 357

Well no. No you don't......

michael_aos
November 6, 2007, 05:35 PM
you also have over-penetration with 223 compared to 357

Studies have shown that is not the case.

Mike

Bartholomew Roberts
November 6, 2007, 05:35 PM
From reading several threads, it seems like several people here use rifles for home defense. I cannot understand why one would want to grab an AR to navigate through your house at night rather than a glock.

Well, I don't know what to say. We have these threads all the time and have had dozens since 2005. You say you've read several of them and you still don't understand why. In fact, you still seem to think that .223 will outpenetrate .357 despite reading these threads. Have you read the threads in the Rifle Forum Reading Library?

It isn't that I don't want to tell you why. It is just that if all of those previous threads haven't helped you with understanding, I simply have no idea how anything I would say would change that.

I cannot understand why one would want to grab an AR to navigate through your house at night

If you are going to try something extremely dangerous, like clearing your own house at night, you had better bring the most powerful, high-capacity weapon you own because you are going to need every single advantage you can get and then some.

ClickClickD'oh
November 6, 2007, 05:49 PM
Does an AK pistol chambered in .223 count as a handgun or rifle for this thread? (I know what the alphabet gang thinks it is, but they're crazy)

It's compact, shooting .223 and has a thirty round magazine. Besides, if it doesn't cause temporary deafness, blindness and pants soiling with it's muzzle blast, I don't know what will.

TexasRifleman
November 6, 2007, 05:58 PM
Well, I don't know what to say.

I think there comes a time when we just have to say, "sure, do whatever" and move on.

This rifle vs shotgun vs handgun in the home thing has been absolutely beaten to death and I have not seen one post in thousands that gave a legitimate reason NOT to choose the rifle every time.

There are lots of "soft" reasons; personal comfort level, finances, etc but never anything compelling.

When there are things said like

I cannot understand why one would want to grab an AR to navigate through your house at night

Wow, what can you say. If someone really believes that then I'll simply say a prayer for them, check the batteries in my AR light, and move on.

Does an AK pistol chambered in .223 count as a handgun or rifle for this thread?

In my opinion (worth all you paid for it) it's the same as a handgun.

Take a carbine class with that pistol and see what happens. There are SO many more things involved here than the type of ammo used. The inherent stability of that shoulder stock is worth it's weight in gold just by itself.

Titan6
November 6, 2007, 05:58 PM
I prefer the shotgun but have no quibble with the rifle, provided it is in the right enviornment with the right bullets. IOTW shooting a .308 inside an apartment likely would not be my first choice.

Handguns? They are what they are, and they are not shotguns or rifles.

General Geoff
November 6, 2007, 06:01 PM
I'd just as quickly ask the question, "Why use a pistol when a long gun is available?"

Long guns (both rifles and shotguns) have far more firepower and are arguably better at stopping an aggressor quickly. The only reason pistols exist is for portability and concealability. I don't know about you, but I'm more accurate, more familiar, and most importantly more comfortable with a rifle or shotgun than I am with any pistol I've ever used.


As far as close quarters maneuverability, I do not feel that my movement is inhibited at all with a 20" barrel in my own house. I don't know about yours.

P95loser
November 6, 2007, 06:02 PM
Well, I don't know what to say. We have these threads all the time and have had dozens since 2005. You say you've read several of them and you still don't understand why. In fact, you still seem to think that .223 will outpenetrate .357 despite reading these threads. Have you read the threads in the Rifle Forum Reading Library?

I didn't look at the library, I was referring to people mentioning it as a side point in conversation about another topic. I assume this is an ever-changing forum with new and different opinions every day (I change my opinion on things regularly) and I was merely trying to guage the consensus and have a current set of opinions and reasons. I am not trying to be confrontational, but merely pointing out this is a forum, the reason it is here is for people to post on and that is all I am doing.

CoRoMo
November 6, 2007, 06:03 PM
I guess it depends on which hand your talking about. :scrutiny: One hand goes for a .357 while the other is grasping for my 9mm. :evil: Then again, the wife is hastily feeding the 12ga full:fire:, so it just depends on whose hands are quickest. :neener:

LaEscopeta
November 6, 2007, 06:03 PM
Some people can't hit anything with a pistol.I'm not one of those people; I hit the back stop with every shot.

I have the oft recommended shotgun for HD because (as many will tell you):

Shotguns generally have greater stopping power than handguns and many rifles at close range.
Buckshot generally has lower potential than handgun/rifle rounds to go through a BG and still have enough velocity to cause damage on the other side.
Buckshot can go through exterior walls, but will slow down much quicker than handgun/rifles, and will pose a hazard for a much shorter distance from my house.
I shoot my shotgun the most; itís what I'm most familiar and accurate with.

I agree with all those who say the last point is the most important.

(And yes I know about the studies showing .223 rounds usually do not exit BGs. And they tumble after going through walls so they slow down quicker than other rifle rounds.)

ClickClickD'oh
November 6, 2007, 06:04 PM
Take a carbine class with that pistol and see what happens.Heck no. I already know I'm losing 400fps at the muzzle because of the barrel, and can't kit jack sqaut past fifty yards. Carbine class is for carbines.. not little terror weapons.

Trade-offs. Reduced muzzle velocity and accuracy at range severly hamper the weapons reach, but are traded for a super compact package. But then again, if my living room is ever fifty yards long... I'm already paying a good sized squad of armed guys to protect the other acres of living space ;)

ArmedBear
November 6, 2007, 06:07 PM
I cannot understand why one would want to grab an AR to navigate through your house at night rather than a glock.

Depends on the AR.

I'm not sure that my 20" HBAR would be quite as handy as a lightened 16" carbine. I'm kinda partial to my Mini-14, actually. It's light and points well for me, and has never failed to feed or fire.

Quick pointing is important to me. If you don't know why, try shooting low-gun skeet.

...but I'm still waiting for the source of the "10 times better" claim...

...crickets...

rcmodel
November 6, 2007, 06:08 PM
I feel the poll left out one option that should have been there.
So I didn't vote.

I might well reach for a handgun, but only to fight my way to a rifle or shotgun.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

TexasRifleman
November 6, 2007, 06:10 PM
I'm not one of those people; I hit the back stop with every shot.

I need that in a bumper sticker :evil:

AtticusThraxx
November 6, 2007, 06:34 PM
I'm surprised the shotgun is running distant second place to the semi-auto pistol in the poll. Would've thought it'd be the other way around. Interesting to see if ratios stay roughly the same as more people vote.

USMC Tanker
November 6, 2007, 06:55 PM
I have my Springer 1911 and Surefire G2 on my nightstand when I sleep at night. Not necessarily because I find it the most effective weapon for home defense, but because it's something I can snatch up in a hurry, present, and fire.

A shotgun is the ideal HD weapon IMO, but trying to swing my 870 up from the floor by my bed wouldn't be ideal, especially if an intruder was already upon me.

Like rcmodel said, I'll use my 1911 to immediately defend myself and allow me to quickly and safely make it to my 870 loaded with 00 buck in my closet.

AZ_Rebel
November 6, 2007, 07:17 PM
I cannot understand why one would want to grab an AR to navigate through your house at night rather than a glock.


Higher capacity. More powerful. More accurate. Easier to shoot faster.

I prefer the shotgun but have no quibble with the rifle, provided it is in the right enviornment with the right bullets.

+1 Exactly Right! The OP obviously does not appreciate how much better a Shotgun or Rifle is as a Defensive Weapon as opposed to any handgun. You should never "Go Get" your pistol if you can "Go Get" your Rifle or Shotgun.

doc2rn
November 6, 2007, 07:20 PM
Moss 500a full of shot for me with a G32 for back up.

Marlin 45 carbine
November 6, 2007, 07:26 PM
I keep my Makarov velcroed to bedpost. SXS 12 ga. in near corner. Marlin .45 w/10 rd mag hanging on wall hook over bedpost and 3D Maglite on bed head board.
I'se arful skeered of tha dark:eek:
and I live 450 ft. off pavement.

CWL
November 6, 2007, 07:29 PM
I voted shotgun because I normally keep my rifles unloaded & in the safe. I do have pistols available but would reach for the shotty if I had my choice.

If I knew there were BGs in the house and I had time, I'd load up one of my .223 carbines -pistol is last choice.

AtticusThraxx
November 6, 2007, 07:30 PM
Guess my question was answered poll-wise. I keep a Mo' Berg next to the bed, but if they can get thru alarm system and the dog into my bedroom,I'll just sic my wife on em. Wake her up in the middle of the night ....God help ya!

Geronimo45
November 6, 2007, 07:42 PM
Revolver. Like to get an AR or similar sometime soon. Maybe this summer. I'm somewhat suspicious of the remarks indicating that .223 is unique in the world as a magic bullet, though. Penetrates body armor easily, but fragments when it hits flesh, never goes through too many walls, but it can go through steel plate like butter... sometimes the AR afficianados come off sounding like marketers for Extreme Shock.

As for overpenetration of walls, we'll say that .45 ACP FMJ goes through 20 sheets of drywall... .223 (of what make and model, couldn't say) will go through around 15 sheets. Still going through multiple walls, but not so many as handgun rounds will. Those numbers are made up, FYI - but the real ones are somewhat similar. The .223 round will go through several walls, but the lower-speed, heavier-weight handguns will go through more walls.
Since HD distances for me = spitting distance or closer, thanks to size... well, Ray Charles could point-shoot in my place. And hit the BG every time.

DMK
November 6, 2007, 09:10 PM
What is the first gun you reach for at home?Usually I'm carrying this:
http://mysite.verizon.net/dmk0210/myarms/Colt-CCO.jpg

But my preference is to grab one of these if it's in reach:
http://mysite.verizon.net/dmk0210/myarms/Midlengths.JPG

RevolvingCylinder
November 6, 2007, 09:22 PM
Longer? My pistols when held in a proper hold with arms out are actually longer than my 16" AR15 shouldered with stock collapsed. Guess I must have long arms.

glockman19
November 6, 2007, 09:24 PM
My preferance? The one closest to the bed. I rotate my nightstand guns so it could be a revolver or pistol. It could be a 10 round mag, (CA), or a 5,6,7 round revolver. Most of the time one of each is in the nightstand. If I need more than 15-17 rounds I'm S-O-O-L.

Ala Dan
November 6, 2007, 09:48 PM
Semi Auto Pistol~! ;) :D

ernunnos
November 6, 2007, 10:18 PM
Long guns are better than handguns, and home is the one place where you can assure yourself access to a long gun. The only question is which. I started with shotguns, but the more I shot them, the more I discovered I liked slugs, and a dedicated slug gun is... a rifle. For indoor use, a rifle with a minimum-length barrel, a wide bore, and a relatively low-pressure cartridge.

KiltedClaymore
November 6, 2007, 10:30 PM
its hard to over penatrate a house made of thick brick and concrete

browningguy
November 6, 2007, 10:35 PM
The first thing I grab is a pistol, but that's only so I can fight my way to a rifle.

MT GUNNY
November 6, 2007, 11:10 PM
I picked semiauto pistol,

However, If my pistol was not around for some reason the first thing
I would grab would be my AR 15 M4gery.

Squidward
November 6, 2007, 11:10 PM
Pistol; because it is handy.

kyccw
November 6, 2007, 11:41 PM
I voted pistol, as that is all I have at the moment. Hope to be remedying that soon. :evil:

Z71
November 7, 2007, 12:22 AM
I keep dogs in the house. Ain't nobody getting in without a major ordeal! By the time the dogs get done all I'll need is a mop and an ambulance for the perp!

Shotgun is what probably should be used, but I do keep a pistol handy.

Don't under estimate how much "house" a bullet will penetrate. Even a .22 will go through a lot of sheetrock, even penetrate exterior walls. A cinder block house(with the block cavitys filled with cement hopefully) might stop a .5.56mm bullet, but I would hate to bet on your average brick house to stop an AR round. It might, but the average brick ain't solid, and the holes ain't filled with morter either!

The usual 2x4 framed and sided house ain't very bullet proof!

ArmedBear
November 7, 2007, 12:28 AM
Ain't very fireproof, either, as we've proven around here twice in the past 4 years alone.

648E
November 7, 2007, 12:34 AM
The rifle if I have time and space to use it.

Chris B
November 7, 2007, 12:59 AM
theboxotruth.com indicates that a shotgun loaded with buckshot presents the least concern for overpenetration versus pistols and rifles.

One trigger pull on my 870 delivers either 9 or 15 pellets of almost 9mm sized lead. This means that if I put two rounds of 3 inch 00 buck in to a target it is roughly the equivalent of emtying an MP5 in to a target. The 870 is completely reliable as well.

I used to keep the AR loaded up but .223/ 5.56 is less likely to immediately stop a threat than the shotgun is.

If I currently owned a pistol it would serve as a backup to the shotgun. Remember the old saying: "pistols are only for fighting your way back to the long gun that you never should have dropped in the first place."

Dr.Rob
November 7, 2007, 01:16 AM
I have felt undergunned with a handgun, but never with a shotgun. Best reason for a handgun is to keep a hand free to use the phone or a flashlight.

But I bet SOMONE makes a hands free Bluetooth mount for an AR-15.

Fast Frank
November 7, 2007, 01:59 AM
Clear the house? Who, me?

I don't think so.

I don't know about you guys, but for ME home defense isn't about killing the bad guys.

Nope, it's about keeping me and my family alive.

I'm not going to be clearing any houses unless that's the only option I have left.

Personally, I'm going to hunker down behind whatever cover I can find with my family behind me, and hope the bad guys don't come through the hallway before the police get there.

If they do... then I will make the best of it with my CCW pistol because:

1. It's guaranteed to be out of the safe and loaded.
2. I'm more practiced with it than any of my other guns.
3. It has Meprolite night sights.
4. It is reliable and powerful and totally worthy for defense of my family.
5. The bad guys are walking into a bad situation. I'm behind cover and they are feeling their way around unfamiliar territory. Bad Idea for them.

If I happened to have my combat shotgun (It's a doozey!) out, or my M4gery happens to be there, then fine- I will gladly use either of those as primary weapon.

Those too are worthy, and probably better than my pistol.

But they are most likely clean and secure in the safe.

I'll be just fine with the pistol, thank you.

swingset
November 7, 2007, 03:03 AM
I cannot understand why one would want to grab an AR to navigate through your house at night rather than a glock.

Ballistically, pistols are terrible replacements for a rifle.

An AR holds more ammo, is more lethal, is more accurate, is more adaptable, can be used as a club if all else fails, etc.

BTW, navigating through your house is a terrible idea, unless you have no other option.

Take a carbine course sometime, and your confusion about this subject will go away.

mr_blove
November 7, 2007, 03:19 AM
I grap my XD45 cause its what I practice with, however I belive a good pump action shotgun is the best home defense weapon for the average Joe Blow out there, my reasons:

1. Not much can go wrong with the function of the weapon.
2. You dont have to be pin point accurate with it.
3. You dont have to be worried about over penatration through you house and impacting friendlies in you house or little Susie next door(unless your usuing slugs).
4.If you are out of ammo or it does have a malfunction it works good for hand-to-hand defense I.E. a buttstroke to the face.
5. Last but not least the sound of you pumping a round into the chamber is a terrifiying sound to any BG with ill intent at heart.

Soybomb
November 7, 2007, 03:49 AM
Right, but you also have over-penetration with 223 compared to 357.
As BR said, you need to read some of the other material here, that just isn't true.

Dr. Peter Venkman
November 7, 2007, 04:12 AM
House clearing by yourself is what I would consider a no-no, that is of course you believe in giving the element of surprise to the crook to even their chances. Secure your loved ones, but house clearing? Yeah, I'd like to see the tactics of a single person doing that job without having major concerns in having blindspots covered. Bunker down and call the police. It's their job.

I voted semi-auto pistol. I cannot own an AR-15 unless it has been severely neutered down, and I don't own a shotgun. With a pistol if need be I can move around my home without scraping the barrel along a wall. Maybe a shotgun is in my future.

Zach S
November 7, 2007, 05:36 AM
Higher capacity. More powerful. More accurate. Easier to shoot faster.
That pretty much sums it up...

Shawnee
November 7, 2007, 06:41 AM
Hi P9...

My 2 cents ...

The defender should not go navigating through the house. They should have determined defense locations ahead of time that allow them to take a position and let the thug "navigate" through an unfamiliar house on his way to a getting a nasty surprise. It's fun to have the element of Surprise in the defender's favor.

With that caveat, a rifle would be Ok - but just Ok. It is still the easiest weapon for a thug to brush away, take away, or "get inside of". And it's "controls", and its' ammo, are more fumble-prone than a shotgun. And using it draws the shooter away from barriers more than a handgun does. But then, if all Ya have is a rifle, it's certainly better than a flyswatter.

I recall from several years ago a story about a fellow in Florida who used his head when he heard an intruder trying to pry a back door. The guy didn't wait; he intentionaly blew the window out of the door with (I believe) a couple shots from a .22 rifle. The would-be intruder decided to intrude the Heck Outtathere.
Cost the homeowner a window but it could have been a lot worse.
And he was smart to let the thug go and just call the cops. Catching a bad guy (or girl) and holding them at gunpoint until the cops can get there is taking on extremely dicey work - generally a poor course of action for Joe or Jill Homeowner.
My point is mostly that a person's best defense weapon is (or should be)between their ears. Home defense - TV/Hollywood style - is not for thinking Folks.

Local opinions may vary. :)

RandyB
November 7, 2007, 07:49 AM
Here is how my weapons line up.

Kimber 1911. If I have to travel to pick up my son in the house, I want a one handed weapon. If my son could walk on his own. The 870 would go first.

Remington 870. For sheltering in place.

Stag Arms AR-15. I am hard pressed to figure when I would use this weapon for when things go bump in the night. I <might> use it to arm the mrs. if I needed to do a reload or such. But that is really pressing the issue since I would have fired 8 rounds from a shotgun........ To me the AR figures in if I have a SHTF type situation. I have carried it in unfriendly handgun states for protection while visiting relatives, etc.

P95loser
November 7, 2007, 08:12 AM
The defender should not go navigating through the house. They should have determined defense locations ahead of time that allow them to take a position and let the thug "navigate" through an unfamiliar house on his way to a getting a nasty surprise. It's fun to have the element of Surprise in the defender's favor.

That is an accurate statement which I would agree with. However my house layout is not condusive for such a plan of defense. The wife and my bedroom is at one end, and the baby's room at the other (through the open dining, kitchen, and living room). If anyone here thinks for a second they are going to advise me to crouch behind my bed when there is an intruder stalking around the house with my baby unprotected... they are wrong.

I would consider a shorty 12 guage, however would need a way to lock it and hide it well as I have one of those keypad handgun drawer safes to keep children away.

RockyMtnTactical
November 7, 2007, 12:48 PM
I love my Glocks, but what makes a Glock a better choice?

An M4gery holds more rounds, is capable of better accuracy, can be shot at a faster rate, and is far more effective...

I fail to see the advantage of the handgun. Handguns are a compromise. We carry them because they are easier to carry/conceal, not because they are more effective.

That said, you must use what you have trained with. I have trained with my AR's and Glocks, but the AR is the better weapon for the job.

AZ_Rebel
November 7, 2007, 01:03 PM
...my house layout is not condusive for such a plan of defense. The wife and my bedroom is at one end, and the baby's room at the other (through the open dining, kitchen, and living room). If anyone here thinks for a second they are going to advise me to crouch behind my bed when there is an intruder stalking around the house with my baby unprotected... they are wrong.

Too many people give little or no thought to security (HD) and personal safety when choosing a place to live. The advantages of remaining in one place and waiting when there are BG's in the house are legion... but if part of your family is isolated in another area that option may not be available. Moving about gives the huge advantage to the BG... and that can be disastrous to you and ALL members of your family! Perhaps you would be better off changing your sleeping arrangements (or your house) before you think about what firearm(s) you use for HD.

ArmedBear
November 7, 2007, 01:43 PM
With the AR15 carbine, your hands don't stick out as far and make the weapon easier to be grabbed or stolen by the attacker.

Sorry, but that's just plain silly.

If someone is close enough to grab your gun, you can hold the pistol right at your side and fire. It'll hit him at that range, just fine, without holding it out in front of you with both hands like you do when trying to shoot bullseyes slow-fire at 25 yards. If you don't think you can point-shoot a man-sized target at less than 2 yards, then practice!

Like I wrote in the far sillier "Mosin for home defense" thread, CQ defensive shooting is not target range shooting.

Do you really think it's harder for a BG to grab and divert a 3-foot-long carbine than a mid-sized pistol held close to the defender's side, without getting shot first?!?

That doesn't mean I think an AR carbine is a ridiculous choice for home defense (which I DO think about the Mosin). It offers a lot; that's why SWAT uses the things more and more. However, "grabability" is a reason for a lone defender NOT to choose it in close quarters; in the list of pros and cons, it's a con not a pro.

Some people even recommend against a 6" barrel revolver because it's easier to grab than a 4". A gun with a 16" barrel and a buttstock, even collapsed, is exactly HOW much harder to grab than a standard revolver?:rolleyes:

P95loser
November 7, 2007, 01:52 PM
Perhaps you would be better off changing your sleeping arrangements (or your house) before you think about what firearm(s) you use for HD.


Alas, at this point in my life that is not an option. We own a house at the road with land behind it we are going to build on. We cannot financially build right now and we cannot move (my wife is next door to her parents and she won't be anywhere else). Frankly I like our location... a $1000 gun is a lot cheaper than a 190000 house.

Gunner4h1r3
November 7, 2007, 03:10 PM
first thing I'd grab is my mossberg 500.

that or one of my 1911's

AZ_Rebel
November 7, 2007, 03:56 PM
Obviously I am not familiar with you or your house... but these thoughts come to mind:

Alas, at this point in my life that is not an option ... a $1000 gun is a lot cheaper than a 190000 house.

Unfortunate! But a $1000 gun will not make up for a flawed security arrangement - you cannot "buy your way out". Consider that after a "bump" in the night you will be moving towards your "baby room" through your entire house.... an easy target for a BG waiting for you behind the sofa.

ALSO... if you have to shoot... you will be shooting towards your "baby room"?

Cosmoline
November 7, 2007, 04:32 PM
It is still the easiest weapon for a thug to brush away, take away, or "get inside of". And it's "controls", and its' ammo, are more fumble-prone than a shotgun. And using it draws the shooter away from barriers more than a handgun does.

I've grabbed a rifle, usually a Mosin, in the middle of the night more than once and have not had these experiences. I'm also not sure where you're getting the idea that a loaded rifle is easy for someone to "brush away." Someone must be spouting this nonsense to sell more handguns. If they plan on coming in and attacking me, assuming they somehow got close enough to grab the end of the M-91's barrel, all I'd have to do is blow them in half. And assuming I was out of ammo I could still jerk it back and slash their palm open with the sight, then thrust into their mid section and drop them like a sack of spuds. Even without the bayonet I can drive the barrel through a wall with a mild push. It's ten pounds of solid steel and hardwood! The rifle is actually DESIGNED to be lethal without ammo or a bayonet. A few blows from the barrel and even one from the buttend is enough to crack a skull clean apart. Try that with your Glock.

Besides, if something starts smashing around in the next room it's just possible it's Mr. Moose who was trying to get to the garden plants by the window or Mr. Bear who saw his reflection in the window and attacked it. These things have happened to other people in this town.

Shawnee
November 7, 2007, 04:34 PM
Hi P95...

I taught a Home Defense class for a long time and, without getting into a major lesson or speech, I'll pass along a basic premise that you may find worth considering.

In short - if a person's entire defense plan is their gun I think they have passed up at least 75% of what they can do to protect themselves.

Home Defense is made up of 4 main parts. In the order they should be pursued they are:

1. Deterrent - ie. outside lights, timed inside lights, fences, locks, neighborhood watch, etc.

2. Early detection/warning - ie. door/window alarms, a vocal dog etc. (and simply being observant).

3. Escape

4. Resistance - of which there are multiple means including firearm use.
I read of a lady who stopped a thug with a couple shots in the face from a can of that wasp spray that shoots 20 ft.

Just an FYI. HTH :)

mljdeckard
November 7, 2007, 04:51 PM
I'm not going to read through the other replies, but a few things to consider.

Pistols are NOT good defensive weapons. A pistol is what you use to fight your way back to the long gun you never should have put down in the first place. Statistically, most people hit with a single bullet from a pistol will RUN AWAY.

On the rare occasions when I have carried openly, and people have asked me why I have a pistol, I tell them it's because it's not practical to carry a rifle around everywhere.

Police agencies are bound by politically correct escallation and PR issues. Over time, they adapted policies of pretty much always using pistols. The public is less frightened that way. But they were reminded, in the 1998 North Hollywood shootout, that sidearms are backup.

When you have a long gun, you have the advantage of a bulky striking weapon. Something to push with, as well as the butt to strike with.

This isn't to say you MUST use the biggest long gun. My primary is a Remington 870 with a shorter tactical barrel. My backup is an M-1 Carbine. Both of these are perfectly fine to use in tight spaces. And those who Use ARs for HD, of course have a variety of options to very the length of the rifle.

If the only gun I had was my 1911, I would use it. But it isn't. :)

ronto
November 7, 2007, 05:00 PM
Depending on my physical location in the house, if necessary I'd grab one of my closest 357 revolvers for backup while I'm on my way to get the 12ga pump.

Ithaca37
November 7, 2007, 05:11 PM
When held with arms extended, a pistol is not really any shorter than a 16" barreled rifle.

Shawnee
November 7, 2007, 05:15 PM
Hi P95...

Would like to offer something else (brief) that I think is really important for anyone considering any firearm for home defense.

Many of us have a mental image and expectation that an "intruder" will be some big, dirty, burly dude..... someone none of us would hesitate to pull the trigger on. Statistics say we are woefully behind the times.
Many house break-ins are by teens - and it isn't uncommon for the intruder to be a female.
If you switch on that light and suddenly see the intruder is your babysitter or your neighbor's daughter - are you really going to pull your trigger? Even if she is obviously strung out and armed - are you - really ? Will your wife? Or will she get shot while holding the gun she won't use?

There are a lot of reasons to give a lot of thought to the 4 elements of home defense. :cool:

HTH

REOIV
November 7, 2007, 05:17 PM
This image about sums up the rifle vs gun for home defense.
http://www.reoiv.com/images/random/handguns.jpg

BTW I use a Saiga 12 with 11 rounds of 00 buck in it. Best of both worlds really.

mljdeckard
November 7, 2007, 05:22 PM
Shawnee- I know I could, I'm not sure if my wife could.

benEzra
November 7, 2007, 05:44 PM
I voted rifle, but that's assuming I'd have the time to access it. The 9mm would be at hand, the rifle further by two steps and a turn of the safe handle.

I don't intend to be navigating around my house at night if I think there's someone actually in here (my kids' rooms adjoin ours, so I can cover everything I need to from my bedroom door).

ArmedBear
November 7, 2007, 06:21 PM
REOIV, that's exactly what I was talking about.

Why in hell would you hold a pistol out like that, as if you were paper punching at 25 yards, when an attacker is grabbing distance from you?

That picture shows not that a pistol doesn't work in close quarters against an attacker; it shows that tactical training is no substitute for IQ, or at least shifting one's brain out of "Park".

ReadyontheRight
November 7, 2007, 06:44 PM
I am unlikely to "maneuver around the home" if I wake up and suspect something is amiss. I am likely to get everyone into one room, dial 911 and sit at the top of the stairs. Most likely with a shotgun, but maybe a rifle if I had an inkling that something might be up.

The floor makes a great backstop to avoid over-penetration. Kind of like sitting in a deer stand.

Matt304
November 7, 2007, 06:48 PM
In my personal opinion, the best choice of weapon to grab would be a short-barrel rifle, like a Steyr TMP or HK UMP, or even an MP5.

Short, accurate rifles in a pistol caliber.

RockyMtnTactical
November 7, 2007, 07:22 PM
Short, accurate rifles in a pistol caliber.

Why pistol caliber? The .223 excels in HD.

Commander Guineapig
November 7, 2007, 07:28 PM
self-removed the long post.

two reasons: my thoughts came across as inflammatory, and there's no need for that. (this is The HIGH Road after all)

second: I wrote how I felt for my situation. Everyone else's situation may be different.
Probably better to clarify my own thoughts in private next time... :o

GP

bwavec
November 7, 2007, 07:44 PM
The sound of me working the action on a 12 gauge pump and yelling out a warning may be giving up my hand a bit early. But that sound is usually enough to get a bad guy moving for the door like nothing short of a police siren will.

I'll shoot someone without hesitation if it comes to that. But defusing a potentially deadly scenario is a better call....if you can get it.

Bartholomew Roberts
November 7, 2007, 08:17 PM
Accuracy: just how far are you shooting anyway? Do you really have a 50 yard open area in your house that you need a rifle
to cover? 25 yards = 75 feet. I can hit a chest sized target at that range with my 9mm, and I am WAY out of practice.

During a Force-on-Force class I took, I watched two experienced IPSC shooters who were buddies go at it one-on-one with Simunitions Glocks. One of them was an IPSC Master class shooter. I don't recall how the other guy was classed. In a tiny plywood shoot house, they both ran their mags dry (10rd mags) at distances of less than 15yds without getting a solid hit.

Both of these guys not only practice regularly and can easily hit a torso target at 25yd with a pistol on the range, they also practice moving while shooting, multiple rounds on target and a host of other skills. They probably represent the top 10% of shooters in terms of training.

All day long I watched guys who I had seen shoot really well for years miss a lot and get splocked in the head. Sometimes I even got to watch it first person as it happened to me.

I live in an apartment. If you live in an apartment, a town-home, a duplex,or in a neighborhood, think of what a .223 round at XYZ fps is going to go thru.

Newsflash - any firearm capable of effectively stopping a threat is going to penetrate multiple interior walls with ease - Glocks, ARs, shotguns, etc. The key to not having to deal with that problem is smart ammunition selection and hitting your target instead of the wall.

And even though it's a Glock 19, I wouldn't want me hopped up
on adrenaline to smash me in the head with it, and I weigh 155 = scrawny.

Unload your Glock. Make sure it is unloaded by physically and visually checking the chamber. Now smack a heavy bag with it. Does the slide get pushed out of battery occasionally? Not only are longguns superior as striking weapons, they don't get pushed out of battery and can continue to be used as a firearm if necessary.

ANYONE who has seen ANY action movie can use a Glock. You pull the trigger, done.

When I can find a new shooter who is willing, I like to take them out to the range and have them do two shots on an IDPA target with a Glock 26, Remington 870, and AR15 while I time them. So far, the AR15 wins every time for time and good hits.

To me, there is nothing wrong about a Glock or any other handgun for home defense.

There is nothing wrong with using a handgun for home defense. If I could only afford one firearm, it would likely be a Glock pistol - just because the Glock can be with me when I need it and longguns cannot.

Having said that, if you DO have a choice between a pistol and a longgun, then choosing the pistol is foolish. The only reason I could see going with a pistol over a long gun is that I had a lot of good, formal training with the pistol and none with the long gun. The pistol is inferior in almost every way to a long gun. If you don't understand that or don't believe it, you really need to drag through some of the threads in the Rifle Forum Reading Library.

Cosmoline
November 7, 2007, 09:10 PM
I can point-and-click with my Glock.
It's inglorious, unfantasyish, down right plain jane. But it works.


Only if you hit, and only if that hit damages something important enough to stop the attacker. Consider for a moment the amazing number of MISSES even trained professionals have in close quarters encounters using sidearms such as the Glock. Remember the James Cantwell shootout. Remember North Hollywood. Remember the Miami shootout. Remember the team of mounties who were shot down. Remember that poor deputy in Georgia who was ruthlessly shot down by the man with the carbine in his truck. Remember the partisan leader Mordechai Anielewicz, who found the pistol of almost no use in a real fight with the Germans. Rifles and carbines trump handguns, so wouldn't you rather have one? Esp. if your intruder is so armed.

My choice doesn't come from fantasty land. It comes from the real life realization of how fricking hard it is even with training to hit moving things late at night with the short gun. Or even in broad daylight for that matter. The rifle gives you far greater accuracy and a much more devestating hit. I wouldn't poo-poo a properly loaded shotgun or carbine, either. But to select the handgun as your primary choice for defense outside of a CCW situation seems ill advised and unrealistic.

REOIV
November 8, 2007, 12:18 AM
Here's a question for you, how often do you practice with your handgun where you're arms are bent etc? Let alone shooting from the hip etc?

Most people shoot with their handguns straight armed, if they are going to aim them.

So that said unless you've practiced shooting without aiming, from your hip or chest level and without a braced arm to absorb the impact I'd say using a gun for home defense becomes actually much more difficult than using a folding stock AK, shotgun or AR 15 carbine. Those guns are easy to bring up quickly, accept a front end pistol grip and hold/fire as many or more rounds than most handguns.

Hell with a drum the Saiga 12 will hold 20 rounds and accepts a folding stock. All told you could have a stock S12 with a drum for $600 or less. Convert it with $200 worth of parts and now you have a folding stock AK/shotgun monster.

$600 is less than the price of an decent AR15, less than most decent handguns, the same price as a decent AK. It is just by far, hands down one of the best CQ anti-personnel weapons ever.

Especially with the mag well adapter coming out that lets it feed mags like an AR.

Go with a rifle or shotgun if you have it, before you go for a handgun.

simpleguy
November 8, 2007, 12:24 AM
I would love to have an AR or my shotgun for self defense, maybe an AK, but until the kids get older(1yr and 7.5), my primary responder it will be my carry gun. I always know where it is and it's always ready.

Commander Guineapig
November 8, 2007, 01:06 AM
like I said...I live in an apartment.
My shortest gun is my closest gun, can be made ready the fastest,
and holds the most ammo. I think in terms of MY place, not someone else's.
Yes, maybe my 9mm will still go through a wall...but not as many as
a rifle cartridge. (and if those top tier fellows in that Force-on-Force class
were missing, then that means I definitely will be, so I'd better not use
a rifle caliber to punch holes in the wall).
And in my apartment, the LAST thing I would want is a
long gun. I cannot imagine navigating my bathroom-hallway area with
an AR. It is not something I would want to do. Talk about getting stuck
in a bottle neck where you cannot bring your muzzle to bear on target...
that's my situation. My longest shot from front door to back is 30-35 feet.
It's also the shot I would be least likely to make, so every other conceivable
shot it 20-25 feet tops.
As for a physical weapon, if anyone bigger then me gets within arms reach,
I am hosed. Whether long gun or short, they will take it from me or knock
me cold trying. Being scrawny means I have lost ever physical confrontation
I have been in. So I would do everything in my power to keep from getting
in a situation where I am the loser by default.
I wrote what I wrote from the view point of where I live.
A rifle caliber seems like a bad choice for me with 25 people in every direction
living within mere feet of my place.
It's my opinion, it's my only option right now, it's what I would use.
I sure as heck ain't taking my Marlin 100 into the living room to see what
went bump...
Sorry if I offended anyone. My place is mine to protect.
I sleep at night with my Glock nearby and I don't worry about it.

GP

NeenachGuy
November 8, 2007, 01:21 AM
We live on a big property in the high desert; we know when someone is approaching the house from about a mile away. The rifle gives me better range than a handgun, and I think the rifle does better at keeping people out of the house (and the property) than a handgun would do.

roscoe
November 8, 2007, 01:55 AM
None of you folks seem to have children. If there is a prowler, you are likely to have to carry them while opening doors, turning off or on lights, etc. You can do a lot with one arm while still defending yourself adequately with a handgun. I don't see how you can do any of that while holding a long gun ready to fire.

Once you have the family together, fine, break out the artillery, but there is a place for handguns in the household armory.

Soybomb
November 8, 2007, 02:53 AM
Yes, maybe my 9mm will still go through a wall...but not as many as
a rifle cartridge.
Have you read any of the excellent links referenced earlier in this thread? Thats just plain wrong.

qajaq59
November 8, 2007, 07:16 AM
It's easier to point a shotgun in the dark then it is to aim a rifle or hand gun. Plus I'd be less likely to kill my neighbor a block away.

Zach S
November 8, 2007, 08:03 AM
I dont know what you use in your shotgun, but the Federal H132 00 (9 pellet, low recoil, 00buck) that I use in my shotgun gives me an eight to ten inch spread at 25 yards. At room distances I can cover the pattern with my fist.

I have to aim my scattergun just like I do my carbine.

P95loser
November 8, 2007, 08:20 AM
None of you folks seem to have children. If there is a prowler, you are likely to have to carry them while opening doors, turning off or on lights, etc. You can do a lot with one arm while still defending yourself adequately with a handgun. I don't see how you can do any of that while holding a long gun ready to fire.


I agree with you. I understand everyone's situation is different, but I am in a situation where I don't feel comfortable leaving a long gun out even if it is stashed under the bed or something. I can lock up my pistol in my drawer safe to keep children out.

If by chance the whole family is together in our room, yeah sure I would probably break out the 12 guage from the safe to stand my ground with, but the simple truth is I have practiced more with handguns and feel much more comfortable with them.

Shawnee
November 8, 2007, 08:30 AM
Hi Zach...

If you haven't already tried #3 buck in your gun I suggest you do so sometime. You may decide it's a better "repel boarders" load than the hallowed "00 buck".

Hi P95...

Along with your point...one may not be carrying the baby but one might very well want a hand free to use the phone, turn on lights or shut/lock doors etc.

TexasRifleman
November 8, 2007, 08:48 AM
None of you folks seem to have children. If there is a prowler, you are likely to have to carry them while opening doors, turning off or on lights, etc.

If your home security plan includes clearing the house while carrying a child I think you need a new plan.

P95loser
November 8, 2007, 09:57 AM
If your home security plan includes clearing the house while carrying a child I think you need a new plan.

He never said he was clearing a house, you just inferred that. What if he was trying to escape the house with the child.

If your home security plan doesn't include the ability to adapt and improvise, I think you need a new plan.

Bartholomew Roberts
November 8, 2007, 10:16 AM
First, I think everybody would be a lot better off reading only what was in the post and not what they think was being said. There is some inference on both sides here.

For example, nobody has said that using a handgun for home defense is always a bad idea. The general point has been IF you have the choice to use a long gun (given proper training and ammunition), use it. Obviously, there are times that isn't an option for whatever reason. In that case, you go to war with what you have.

Yes, maybe my 9mm will still go through a wall...but not as many as a rifle cartridge. (and if those top tier fellows in that Force-on-Force class were missing, then that means I definitely will be, so I'd better not use a rifle caliber to punch holes in the wall).

So your rationale is that if very experienced pistol shooters miss a lot with pistols in high stress situations; you had better not use an inherently more accurate platform like a rifle or shotgun, because you may miss with that as well being less experienced? It would be better to stick with a platform you KNOW you will miss more often with because you are under the erroneous belief that the 9mm will present less of a threat than say a 110gr AMAX .308 or a 55gr TAP in .223?

That 9mm defensive ammo will be more likely to cause a lethal injury after penetrating the wall than many kinds of rifle ammo. Seriously, check out some of the links in the Rifle Forum Reading. They are there for a reason.

I wrote what I wrote from the view point of where I live.
A rifle caliber seems like a bad choice for me with 25 people in every direction living within mere feet of my place.

Yes; but one of the reasons it seems like a bad idea is because you aren't basing your choices on solid information. Seriously, Colorado has some excellent training resources like Valhalla and some great ranges with active shooting communities. You should really take advantage of those and get some formal training. You might still decide a pistol is your best bet after that given all the circumstances; but at least you'll be making a better informed decision.

roscoe
November 8, 2007, 10:34 AM
He never said he was clearing a house, you just inferred that. What if he was trying to escape the house with the child.

If your home security plan doesn't include the ability to adapt and improvise, I think you need a new plan.
Umm - yeah. Clearing a house with a kid in my arm? What did I write that could possibly have led you to infer that I advocated that? I don't even think you should attempt to clear a house with an AR unless you are working as a team.

I am talking about consolidating the family in a defensible bedroom, or scramming altogether. If you can do that, which generally would involve hauling sleepy toddlers, while carrying an AR in a way that can be accurately fired, then you are on well-muscled dude. With a decent fighting handgun, it is essentially no problem.

Protecting the family is more complicated than just shooting bad guys, although that is all most people like to talk about.

TexasRifleman
November 8, 2007, 10:52 AM
What did I write that could possibly have led you to infer that I advocated that?

If you are moving through your home and have reason to be armed, and believe there is possibly someone in the home with you that shouldn't be there then you are clearing your home. You may only be clearing to the door, but you have to clear each area you enter.

You gonna just run into the living room with no idea what's in there? No, you are going to want to clear that area first.

So, you said your plan includes clearing your home with a child in your arms. It sounds like a real bad idea.

Consider going out a window or some alternative to having to possibly fight your way to an exit carrying a kid.

Commander Guineapig
November 8, 2007, 08:37 PM
Yes; but one of the reasons it seems like a bad idea is because you aren't basing your choices on solid information. Seriously, Colorado has some excellent training resources like Valhalla and some great ranges with active shooting communities. You should really take advantage of those and get some formal training. You might still decide a pistol is your best bet after that given all the circumstances; but at least you'll be making a better informed decision.
gosh what I wouldn't give for some training at Gunsite or some other institution. Given the fact that I shoot a Glock and really HAVE no other
option in terms of a rifle or shotty, this should give you some idea of how
much I don't make a year. :) My choices are: single shot .22, single shot full length 20 gauge, Glock 19. (I'd feel really silly with a long shotgun loaded with number 7 birdshot in hand sneaking boxer-clad thru my 700 sq ft apartment...)
This makes arguing over whether or not I should use a rifle null and void.
I simply don't own a rifle (yet), that I would grab at 4 am to go wallop
someone trying to steal my guineapigs.
My choices are: single shot .22, single shot full length 20 gauge,
Glock 19.
I would rather not spat back and forth over this, and for that reason
I zapped my original post.

GP

SSN Vet
November 8, 2007, 08:51 PM
bump in the night.....

.357 revolver manning "my spot" near the top of the stairs..... not going to clear the house....but woe to any one who decides to come up to where the people are.

armed gang outside shouting "send out your daughters or we'll burn the house down"....

I'll take all the horsepower I can get.

Consider going out a window or some alternative to having to possibly fight your way to an exit carrying a kid.
As far as I'm concerned, we're staying put and it's the unwanted "guests" that are leaving.....thank the Lord I live in a state that protects my right to protect my family and doesn't require us to abandon ship.

roscoe
November 8, 2007, 09:15 PM
If you are moving through your home and have reason to be armed, and believe there is possibly someone in the home with you that shouldn't be there then you are clearing your home. You may only be clearing to the door, but you have to clear each area you enter.

You gonna just run into the living room with no idea what's in there? No, you are going to want to clear that area first.

So, you said your plan includes clearing your home with a child in your arms. It sounds like a real bad idea.

Consider going out a window or some alternative to having to possibly fight your way to an exit carrying a kid
None of that really makes sense. Are you saying it is better to try to carry young one with a long gun? How does that work? Or do you plan on clearing the house by yourself rather than collecting the family in a defensible location and awaiting reinforcements? It sounds like you are ready to take on an unknown number of assailants just because you have a longarm. That does not sound like a sound plan to me.

I am advocating the absolutely minimum amount of movement necessary to gather the family in a single defensible location (where longarms are available), and that necessarily entails carrying toddlers. Carrying toddlers means either slinging a long arm (or trying to operate it one handed), or using a handgun.

You also seem to act as if you have knowledge of the layout of my house. Stepping across the 4 feet of hallway to get in the kids room is hardly 'clearing' the house. And, yes, I don't advocate running willy-nilly without looking, but I don't think that the four feet of 'clearing' necessitates a long gun at the expense of being able to carry the kids.

This sounds like a 'hammer-nail' problem.

davepool
November 8, 2007, 09:16 PM
Mossberg 500 with 8 rounds of 00 buck magnums; most likely late , my early warning system is going off(very large dog) i just got abruptly awoken,hard to miss with shot gun,if more needed wife backs up with Kel-Tec PLR-16 and 30 rounds of frangible ammo

esmith
November 8, 2007, 10:03 PM
but you also have over-penetration with 223

This is depending on the load you are using. If you throw in a high expanding bullet it will make a fantastic HD weapon. The only thing is there isn't too much stopping power, plus yielding a long gun in a house isn't always the best thing.

I picked semi autoloader because its designed for close range. However i would want to have whatever pistol in 45 acp. Gives good stopping power.

blackhawk2000
November 8, 2007, 10:03 PM
Not this again:rolleyes:



A long gun is always superior to a handgun. Retention is greater with a long gun. Accuracy is better with a long gun. Wound capability is greater with a long gun, provided you aren't comparing a .454 Casull revolver to a 10-22. These reasons among others make the long gun far superior to a handgun. I can not even fathom that there are people out there who still don't know this.


Now for some reasons why the rifle is better than a shotgun for home defense. The rifle usually has a higher ammo capacity than a shotgun. Usually a much, much higher ammo capacity. Rifles are usually quicker to reload than a shotgun. Rifles usually recoil less than a shotgun. Rifle rounds like .223 are less likely to exit the BG's body and do collateral damage unlike slugs or buck.

Now the reason I say usually on these answers is because if I didn't some clown would just come back with this:

My bolt gun holds less than my .12 G "riot" gun. I can load my Saigai 12 quicker than I can load my bolt gun. My .700 Nitro Express recoils more than my .410 SG.

Now if you will excuse me I have to go wipe myself. I just got back from the range and my pants are very soiled from all the Cha-Chunks I've been hearing from the trap range.

esmith
November 8, 2007, 10:08 PM
A long gun is always superior to a handgun

Yeah except when you are hitting walls and doorways with your rifle while running around your house frantically looking for your children. Meanwhile there are 2+ BGs rooting through your house armed. You can't always know how you are going to act during something until it actually happens.

Now ballistically, what you are saying, makes sense. But its not always the capabilities of a rifle or cartridge that will prove its better for a specific purpose.

blackhawk2000
November 8, 2007, 10:49 PM
Yeah except when you are hitting walls and doorways with your rifle while running around your house frantically looking for your children. Meanwhile there are 2+ BGs rooting through your house armed.


Take a fighting rifle class, and learn how to navigate tight quarters, among other things. You owe it your Wife and kids.

esmith
November 8, 2007, 11:11 PM
Take a fighting rifle class, and learn how to navigate tight quarters, among other things. You owe it your Wife and kids.


Im not married nor have kids, I was speaking hypothetically. However, when i do, im going to use a pistol until i take a fighting rifle class. Which by the way, are uncommon in my area.

blackhawk2000
November 8, 2007, 11:14 PM
Where do you live? If you can get enough people together I know a guy who might travel to you. He did a class for Oleg and some of his friends. www.michigantrainer.com Well worth the money.

P95loser
November 8, 2007, 11:31 PM
I never have taken a rifle class, but I can see the advantages of a carbine style ar... and would like to have one, but it wont be at my bedside, but in the safe. That to me is the main advantage of a pistol.

blackhawk2000
November 8, 2007, 11:35 PM
You can put a rifle next to your bed at night, and then back in the safe in the morning. I carry a G23, and 2 spare mags every day. At work I wear a tool belt over the gun and mags. At times it is very uncomfortable, but I do it not because it is convienent.

Rifleman 173
November 16, 2007, 06:10 AM
When you FIRST get to grabbing guns, what do you reach for? A handgun to strap on and to cover the immediate area you're in. Next on the list is your primary firearm be it rifle or shotgun. Once you are ready, then you go looking for the bad guy or the bump in the night. That's normally how I do it. However, my options for use are the long barrel, shoulder-mounted firearm first backed up by my pistol.

huntershooter
November 16, 2007, 06:32 AM
I've got a ranch that's a "weekend" place. It's in the Flinthills region of SE Kansas and is quite isolated. Nearest neighbor is 4 miles away. Response time of Deputy Sheriff is 20 min.+. IF there is a disturbance at night that requires investigation, I take an AR10 with a Trijicon Reflex sight. My wife stays put in the bedroom with phone and a .45 acp 1911. There are a LOT of meth producing/using spooks in our area (the Sheriff, Matt Samuals was killed a few miles away a year ago, serving a warrant to one of these cretins). I suppose the scenario I envision is the necessity to shoot through cover (vehicle bodies). The .308 is up to it in my experience.

stubbicatt
November 16, 2007, 07:42 AM
I choose a 223 rifle with Hornady TAP or Vmax rounds, as I have done penetration tests on various media, and determined that the risk from overpenetration outweighs the desireability of a handgun.

As far as being unwieldy (sic?) just choke up on it really tight when going through the house, and aim roughly. This takes practice, but if you don't practice you are handicapping yourself in any event, IMO.

lev83
November 16, 2007, 07:49 AM
I think a good pump shotgun just can not be replaced as a home defense weapon. Just working the action would provide a serious deterent to most anyone. Does not require precision accuracy to be effective in eliminating a threat. And no real concerns re: overpentration. I believe my mind is made up on this one.

TexasRifleman
November 16, 2007, 08:34 AM
Just working the action would provide a serious deterent to most anyone.

Too many movies....

Your average meth head probably doesn't even know or remember what a pump shotgun being loaded sounds like....

Zach S
November 16, 2007, 10:45 AM
Just working the action would provide a serious deterent to most anyone. Does not require precision accuracy to be effective in eliminating a threat. That deterent also gives away your position to the BG that you let get too close to you while holding a club. Also, my HD rounds dont pattern any bigger than my lady's fist at room distances, and my AR points more naturally for me (I shoot it more), so I'd actually be less likely to hit with the scattergun.

Gunsnrovers
November 16, 2007, 11:03 AM
When I was single, I had either an 870 or a lever gun as the house gun. Now that I'm married, I use revolvers.

I'd prefer the long gun, but my wife has trouble with them. She has no issues with the revolvers.

Go with the best you can use effectively.

supertac
November 16, 2007, 11:27 AM
AR15 with M193 ammo is my go to...I also have a G23 ready by the bedside.

Twud
November 16, 2007, 11:30 AM
I'll give a several reasons to use a small frame revolver.

It's real easy to tell if it's loaded
Very fast target aquisition
Very low probability of a jam
Lower probability of having it wrestled away for you
No safety to worry about

I asked my attorney about this once. His advice was that in the event you should be charged with some kind of BS felony, a handgun looks less imposing, less menacing to a jury. A tricked out black gun apparently dosen't play well with the uneducated masses. He says your better off with a serious wound than actually killing the bad guy. As a criminal defense attorney I gotta' believe him.

The guy I work for has a cabin in the West Virginia mountains. Every year he closes shop for a few days takes the mechanics hunting. One brain child was in the living room showing off his 30-30 when of course it went off. Bullet went through a bathroom, through a kitchen wall passing within a foot or so of the boss's head and lodged in a cast iron sewer pipe.

You don't need that much power to give a man something more important to think about.
Would you want a FMJ round taking a trip through you kids bedroom?

I keep a small frame Smith stoked with +P's for in home defense. If they want to get more serious a Mini-14 is in the front of my guncabinet along with
4 -30 round mags stoked with FMJ's.
You also have to ask your self Do you really want to kill the guy? It's a burden you will carry the rest of your life.

Finally, I seem to recall Jeff Cooper stating that the average gun fight takes place in under 15 feet and lasts 5 seconds.

SteyrAUG
November 16, 2007, 03:05 PM
If your first instinct is to grab for that long gun, chime in as to why!

More stable, accurate (longer sight radius) platform with a higher magazine capacity. Doesn't extend from the body any further than a aimed handgun. Weapon lights, suppressors, etc. are easier to handle on a carbine.

Gator
November 16, 2007, 03:11 PM
Next on the list is your primary firearm be it rifle or shotgun.

Yep. A handgun is what you use when you don't have a better weapon.

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