Incident at the local range.


PDA






doctorhumbert
July 16, 2003, 08:55 PM
I just left the local range after making an incident. Its range rule clearly state that magazine out with action clear. Well, the HK P7M8, a very safe design, not cocked 1911 (I know.. all guns are dangerous), in my holster was empty but I forgot to leave the magazine out.
OK, I agree that I was a complete idiot for not following the safety rule, but here is what happened. When I walked into the firing lane, the old guy behind me apparently saw that magazine was in the place. I, not aware of that I forgot to leave the magazine out of the gun (I usually shoot at the other indoor range, where this is not required, and apparently forgot) was completely shoked when this old guy GRABBED THE GUN IN THE HOLSTER FROM THE BEHIND, TRYING TO TAKE IT AWAY. Good thing the holster was tight fitting, he failed to do so, and when I turned around to see what happened, he then yelled at me to go out side and clear the gun and come back in.
Sure, I deserve to be kicked out of the range for violating the rule, but he could simply have told me to correct the mistake, especially when it was secured in the holster, and not being waved around. I walked out aknowledging my mistake, but I was so pissed and shoked(also little embarassed) I decided that I couldn't shoot here.
I don't know who the man was and i don't care, but I think he caused much more unsafe environment than myself by using unnecessary confiscation method on a dangerous weapon that he is not even familiar with. He could have yelled at me all he wanted, but YOU DO NOT TOUCH MY GUN with out MY CONSENT. My fault aside, it was dangerous, disrespectful, inconsiderate, and rude.
I was already fed up with their rude and indifferent employees. Now I am never going back to that place. Someone could have been seriously hurt today.

If you enjoyed reading about "Incident at the local range." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Standing Wolf
July 16, 2003, 09:03 PM
My fault aside, it was dangerous, disrespectful, inconsiderate, and rude.

I concur, but your fault came first. If 'twere me, I'd wait a week or two and return, and live within the range rules.

pax
July 16, 2003, 09:11 PM
H'mmm. Gun grab from behind? He's fortunate that you hadn't just finished taking a handgun-retention class, or it is entirely possible that you would have busted his elbow for trying it.

That said, a moment's innattention to the safety rules is a Very Bad Thing. Pay 'tention next time. :)

pax

If the whole human race lay in one grave, the epitaph on its headstone might well be: 'It seemed a good idea at the time.' -- Dame Rebecca West

doctorhumbert
July 16, 2003, 09:21 PM
Yeah, I SHALL follow the safety rule more closely next time. I would love to have his elbow busted or eyes gauged, but he had lot of other old buddies with loaded 1911s next to him. :uhoh: and I only had an empty 9mm.

12-34hom
July 16, 2003, 09:26 PM
Someone trying to grab the gun from the holster i've got on...:fire:

12-34hom.

Waitone
July 16, 2003, 09:31 PM
No cause for the old guy assaulting you, regardless of the reason.

Sounds to me like you ignored a dangerous situation. Good and Bad.

I agree. Cool off for a few weeks and go back.

doctorhumbert
July 16, 2003, 09:32 PM
Actually, it might be possible that old man had a sudden unsuppressable impulse to see my naked P7M8 out of its holster, because it looks like THIS out of it:
http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid66/pb291818971f239bb5627f47484bcdc32/fbdfc38e.jpg
Take your dirty paws off my GUN!
Wait! You tried to RAPE her! You sick :cuss: !!!

OF
July 16, 2003, 09:35 PM
Anyone making a try for my gun is in danger of getting a Benchmade 710 in their neck.

That was a seriously stupid thing to do - that guy should lose his club membership for that, absolutely.

As for leaving the mag in the gun, I'd file that under 'BFD'.

- Gabe

Dorian
July 16, 2003, 09:43 PM
Leaving a Mag in your gun may be against range rules...

But trying to take my gun away from me would most likley end up in me having him handcuffed on the floor.

One of the few situations where deadly force is authorized around here is if someone tries to take your gun away from you.

It would have been a bad for us both.

/vent off

It was a mistake on your part, but his action was totally stupid and irresponsible.

/no really vent off!

Norm357
July 16, 2003, 09:49 PM
Hey Doc, you did better than I would have cause I would have decked his old butt after I had broken his arm.




Norm


edited for the censor bot

doctorhumbert
July 16, 2003, 09:51 PM
I mean, seriously I am not going back there though it is 5min away from where I live. I much prefer to go to Bulls Eye indoor range in Lawrenceville 20 minutes away. They always greet me with my name, and NO gun grabbing there.

RVSinOK
July 16, 2003, 09:57 PM
I have to agree with the general consensus on this one. Yes, you should have paid more attention to the range rules, but regardless of those rules, anyone who tries to grab someone else is a complete idiot who doesn't deserve to be at the range!:fire:

cool45auto
July 16, 2003, 10:46 PM
I think the guy was crazy for trying something stupid like that.:fire:

Rick Blaine
July 16, 2003, 10:49 PM
Agree that you broke the rule and set yourself up for trouble.

However, that old man is dangerously stupid. I would have sent you home for the day, but banned him forever.

I never go to two ranges locally that have a dozen more rules than are necessary for safety's sake.

P95Carry
July 16, 2003, 11:06 PM
Sorry ... repetition but yeah .. that ol fart was crazy! OK you broke a rule but hey ..... holstered. IMO a holstered gun is a safe gun .. in that condition. A degree of tact and thought and all he need have done was ''remind'' ytou of the rule.

To try a grab is assinine ..... he is guilty himself of ''behavior unbecoming'':rolleyes:

hansolo
July 16, 2003, 11:09 PM
Even though you "broke" a rule, the old fool instigated a near-death situation, IMHO.

I belong to two local outdoor ranges: #1 has an R.O. at all times and a list of No-No's as long as my...arm; there have been TWO minor injuries at this range caused by confusion and over-zealous R.O.'s ......Range #2 has weekend matches and all members have the key to the gate and 24/7 priviledges...MANY of us let ourselves in at all hours -- potential members are voted-in on the rec. of at least two members. I often am alone and unsupervised. There have been ZERO firearm-inflicted injuries at this range in it's 12 years of existance....If someone came up from behind while I was wearing ear protection and tried to grap my gun, they wouldn't feel too well. Common sense and firearms are a great combination!

goalie
July 16, 2003, 11:12 PM
While not having a magazine in your handgun may be a range rule, having a magazine in is far more safe than trying to grab another person's handgun from behind. I carry a loaded handgun in a holster every day and have not had any problems with safety. If someone tried to snatch my gun from behind every day, well........

Greg L
July 16, 2003, 11:37 PM
He is very lucky. When I'm at the range there is always another pistol under my shirt that never gets touched or fired during that session. Someone coming up behind me and trying to take my holsered weapon will most likely cause the hidden one to become exposed in a violent manner :eek: :fire:

Greg

Redlg155
July 16, 2003, 11:52 PM
I'm with the crowd that would have put ol boy on his butt. A polite but stern warning to you would be much better since although you violated a safety rule, no one was in immediate danger.


It probably would have done the guy a bit of good to eat some dirt. I'd bet he would never try that again!

Good Shooting
Red

El Tejon
July 17, 2003, 12:01 AM
I've only taken a gun away from someone on the range twice. Both times they were attempting to point the weapon at me.

No need to touch your weapon as it was in the holster and you were not in violation of any of the Four Rules, merely a range rule. Cool out for a few days and talk to the Safety Director (or equivalent at your club). Make sure word gets out about how to handle a "range rule" by, oh, I don't know, talking maybe???:rolleyes:

Old guy was lucky. Here he would have one less eye and working arm and would be introduced to Mr. Ground.

Mordwyn
July 17, 2003, 12:14 AM
I also carry a "New York Reload" that is never used or exposed while at the range. How many others do this as well?

While the good Doctor made a mistake with leaving the magazine in his pistol, if the old man had tried that with me, and from behind no less......

Damn!!! that has got to be the scariest incident I've ever had described to me on line or IRL

Doc, you realy have to talk to somone at that range about this guy. He needs to fully understand how close to dead he came. Not saying that you would have shot him, but the next time he tries to "flex his authority" in that manner with somone else.........:uhoh:

doctorhumbert
July 17, 2003, 12:34 AM
Thanks you guys for your consideration on my behalf. I am sure you guys will disagree, but I am sort of pacifist. I mean, yeah, what old man did was like touching me in the unmentionable place. But he was at least 60 years old, and I am only 25. I usually listen to what senior citizen have to say. He probably was obviously upset that I broke the range rule, and acted foolish without really thinking about it (we all do it sometime). May be I wasn't dressed well enough, and just appeared as an irresponsible young punk, and treated me like one.
I did not punch. slash, or shoot him , because of I knew that old man was behind me and I was in the place where it is probably most safe (from crime I mean).
Since it was done without criminal intent; if I knock, punch, gouge eye, or shoot him I wouldn't be discussing this with you gentlemen tonight. Instead, I'd be thinking of my justfication against his 'witnesses'. In the end, NO one was hurt.
As for that range, place gave me such a bad vibe (he may have been hard core member or R.O.), that I will just go to another range; and I am gonna have a good night sleep with LOADED P7M8 or BHP next to me.

O.K. if some one touch my gun at THAT other range also, I am gonna stab him in the testicle.

Mordwyn
July 17, 2003, 12:54 AM
I can appreciate what you are saying Doc, I am in general a pacifist too, but look at it this way. This guy saw a pistol, in a holster, with a mag in it, which violated range rules. Instead of approching you and talking to you about it, he proceded to try to snatch it from you from behind.

Now your right, for all intents and purposes he didn't have any criminal intent, but I can't think of anything more horrifying.

How did he know that the pistol was empty? What if it wasn't and he, while grabbing it, fired a round? A round that would most likely have hit you, not somone else but YOU, somwhere around the hip and or kidneys, one of the worst places to get shot EVER

If this is the kind of person that this range has as and RO, I would never show my face there again. This person is a danger to everyone there especialy himself and somone needs to speak to the powers that be so he doesn't get himself or anyone else killed.

Chugach
July 17, 2003, 01:04 AM
OK, you violated a range rule. That should earn you a short discussion with the Range Officer or owner. May or may not get you kicked off the range.

Attempting to take someone's holstered firearm from behind, unannounced or not, is so incredibly stupid that my jaw is still sagging. I'm not trained in firearm retention, but I guarantee you that I would automatically be trying to immobilize and grind to dust any hand that attempted it. The guy clearly set up a situation that was far more unsafe than what already existed.

Good thing no one was hurt, before or after. Give yourself credit for not escalating when you knew what the real situation was. Chill, then go back and talk to the management. Who knows, the older guy may end up getting the butt-chewing or suspension he deserves...

Sylvilagus Aquaticus
July 17, 2003, 01:54 AM
Well, you broke a rule. My first response on hearing it is BFD. Somebody tries to snatch something from me and they'd have a painful wrst for a moment while I analyzed whether or not they needed a dislocated shoulder and the opportunity for field rhinoplasty, at a mininimum. Was he a RO or another shooter? If he's a RO he could have perhaps handled it a little differently (ie; maybe a little less abrupt). If he was just another shooter then he was WAY out of line. If he wasn't in a position of responsibility at the joint I'd have a friendly, non-confrontational chat with the RO in charge and give an unemotional, unembellished account of the incident for his benefit. Then I'd consider doing what you already have suggested- stay away for a little while, then come back and make sure to follow the rules as posted, to the letter. I'd say you get your do-over for the year this time.

BTW, I do not advocate physical violence against the elderly or infirm.

Regards,
Rabbit.

CGofMP
July 17, 2003, 05:04 AM
Humbert.. boy you shore did skrew up!!!

But ya know what, the range officer took a minor violation and turned it into a MAJOR invitation to disaster.

Here is the short list of possibilities:

1) Negligent Weapon Discharge resulting in property damage to the range facilities.

2) Negligent Weapon Discharge resulting in the injury of the person carying (you) via a round ito the leg, kidneys, or other area as the muzzle sweeps.

3) Negligent Weapon Discharge resulting in death or injury to another patron.

4) Negligent Weapon Discharge resulting in property damage of another patron.

5) Negligent Weapon Discharge resulting in death or injury of another range officer.

6) Had he done it to a cop or someone trained, it could very easily have resulted in injury or death to himself as the training kicks in, particularly if the officer has recently been put on notice that someone intends him harm.



In my view this elderly moron should be thrown out of the club on his butt. Around here ranges do not allow holsters but for a lucky few and usually in the context of special events or classes.

Had ANYONE done this to me I guarantee you that I would have reacted very swiftly and it would of resulted in 'weapon retention' techniques that would have caused appropriate but very unforgetable results for the person attempting to disarm me. Those who have taken weapons retention classes and advanced officer survival classes will tell you that there is not a whole lot you need to react faster to than a suspect trying to nab your weapon.


In my view, for the safety of others you absolutely NEED to get in touch with the top officials of the range and have a face to face meeting with them or at the very very least a firm and even keeled phone call with them. You need to explain what happened and why it is so completely unsafe as to cause this sort of reaction from the members of this board and others familiar with firearm safety.

What IF you had been some other idiot who had a cocked 1911 with the safety off? less than 5 lbs of pressue on that trigger (nothing at all compared to what ya can place on it improperly removing it from a holster) and this would have ended a whole lot different.

It's your call but I think this one needs serious attention before some newspaper someplace prints a story on "2 gun nuts at range struggle over firearm resulting in a junior shooter's death".

Can not hit this one hard enough.

Charles

chetrogers
July 17, 2003, 05:21 AM
This is why i shoot in the woods ect....If it was holstered i dont see a problem..I could see if you were waving it around and all but for being so well holstered he couldn't pull it out i think it was safe...You should tell somebody at the range about this..Say it was "your bad" but that guy shouldn't be doing stuff like that..what he did was real unsafe and probably shouldn't be tolerated...What you did was an accidental screw up ..what he did was Just plane unsafe...

Moparmike
July 17, 2003, 08:45 AM
At the very least that guy would have gone away with a bruised arm as I would have swatted it away with a promptly raised fist on the other hand. He would have been told to NEVER touch my firearm again.

Hemicuda
July 17, 2003, 09:00 AM
Sorry to say it, but you WERE wrong (as you admit)

and 'twere it ME, that old man woulda drawn back a mangled bloody stump, instead of a functioning hand, OR ended up facing the barrel of a loaded gun, for attempting to steal my firearm... you (or ANYONE) are welcome to look and admire my guns, but you do NOT touch them without permission, ESPECIALLY the one strapped on my side...

braindead0
July 17, 2003, 09:47 AM
then yelled at me to go out side and clear the gun and come back in.

You should have pointed out that the proper place to make your weapon safe is muzzle down range, on the line.. not outside!

Edward429451
July 17, 2003, 10:00 AM
Thats not very cool to try and snatch someones weapon. You can't get much safer than holstered. One of the outdoor ranges I frequent says to lock em back on the table also. I routinely ignore this rule and holster my sidearm. I haven't been yelled at yet. I see the RO looking at me sometimes but I just continue on with what I'm doing while conducting myself in an appropriate manner (safe) and never one word.

:confused:

Sometimes when the RO looks at me I give him the respectful open hands palms up sign to let him know I'm being safety concious but thats all.

NapAttack
July 17, 2003, 11:44 AM
doctorhumbert,

I think you showed great restraint with this old fool. Just goes to show that age does not impart wisdom.

I've been shooting at Bullseye for years. Never had a bit of a problem there. Randy and the guys are cool. They do require all firearms unloaded and action open when you enter the store or the firearm in a guncase. They're cool about it though.

Hey, PM me and maybe we can get together to shoot sometime.

Cosmoline
July 17, 2003, 12:06 PM
All the ranges I've shot at allow the carrying of fully loaded firearms. I've seen several in the open, and I know there are concealed weapons around. These are kept on the person, and are not the ones being used on the line. They have nothing to do with the firearms you're using on the line. It seems highly hypocritical for a range to prohibit CCW in particular.

And NOBODY should ever try to grab a firearm out of someone's holster! That's a VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY bad thing to do, and could wind up getting the idiot killed. What he did to you was far worse than simply violating a magazine rule. Way worse. You broke the letter of a safety rule which should probably be changed anyway. He nearly crossed the line of putting you in imminent deadly peril. The first is a range rule, the second is something that can get the fool killed WITH JUSTIFICATION. No contest. The guy is an arrogant idiot of astonishing magnitude. If he had done that at my range, he probably would have been killed.

ed dixon
July 17, 2003, 12:20 PM
Are you sure you didn't stumble into bingo night at a nursing home and have some WW1 vet mistake you for a "Hun?"

brownie0486
July 17, 2003, 12:57 PM
After reading the situation as described, I think it wise to find out who the old gent was [ most would call me an old gent ], from others at the range that day.

Once he has been ID'd, I would write a letter to the president/vboard of the club explaining in detail what happened and by whom.

I would also send a CC to the local PD so that they may better determine if they need to talk to this gent about his attempted gun grab.

The old gent escalated an infraction of the rules to where both parties and bystanders could have been harmed or killed.

I would not have left as the poster states after the attempted gun grab. I would have called the PD and had them show up to talk to this guy about possible assault charges being filed against him. They would then have a record of this on file in the event the old geezer is in the habit of pulling this crap.

At the very least they would have told him it was not kosher to be grabbing anothers weapon and could be charged with assault and battery and probably other violations as well. That way the old timer would think twice about pulling that stunt again having been warned by the PD arrival at the scene.

You could save another shooter from the same fate by the above suggestions. As it stands now, he got away with something, felt like he was some form of lone ranger and didn't break any laws in his actions [ which he did, but doesn't realize it ].

He is prone to do this again to another. Do everyone at the club a favor and perhaps save another from injury/death [ including himself ] by bringing this to the atention of the club powers that be and then the PD.

If it isn't documented now, it will be the first time the next time and the problem WILL come up again.

Do everyone and yourself a favor and take it to the clubs board. The life you save might be someone elses or this old geezers if, like others have posted, they clock him.

Brownie

Pebcac
July 17, 2003, 01:33 PM
You responded with a cool head - good job. Force would've been required only if he persisted in "relieving" you of your weapon.

I would absolutely speak with the management of that range about this issue. They should be aware of this, and have the opportunity to take corrective action. Acknowledge that you broke a rule, but still make it clear to them that you will not be back, even though it's closer, because someone put you and everyone else at great risk by initiating a physical confrontation.

If they don't respond with "Sir, we apologize and will correct it," don't ever go back and let everyone know about it that you can.

doctorhumbert
July 17, 2003, 01:35 PM
Here is further detail on exactly what happened. I will be careful not to reveal the place or location, though the people who shoot around here might get sense where it is.
It is a indoor range, and I heard that there is IPDA shooting there. And this is why I was there with a full rig. I asked at the range desk to see if I can participate, and the range employee told me to go in and ask for the person in charge since it's a private gathering. All the while not having my mistake corrected! I went in, unaware of my mistake. They were already shooting shilouette targets, and I was calmly waiting for the shooting session to be over to get some information. It was then this 'gent' who was waiting for his turn saw me standing there, and went after my gun. So in a sense I violated both range rule and IPDA (though I wasn't participating) rule.
Well, guess I won't be doing IPDA shootin with this crowd. Since IPDA shooters meet there weekly, he might show up there next week. I am not going to wait till, instead gonna call the range and tell them exactly what happened. I will give you update on what their response is.

TheeBadOne
July 17, 2003, 01:39 PM
He should lose his job

45R
July 17, 2003, 01:49 PM
Bottom line:
That guy was wrong. IT was obvious that your little infraction was not a big deal to the employees. (note that I dont condone breaking any ranges rules, because a simply saying "Sir please remove the magazine from your holstered weapon and make it safe" would have sufficed".)

That "old gent" put your life on the line as well as everyone else in the area. Reaching for anyones gun is a pure no no. It could have escalated into sometime very very bad for everyone involved as well as the bistanders. I am surprised that no one said anything to him.

That was purely unacceptable behavior. An employee should be held to a higher standard in every way at the range.

I wish you the best of luck in finding closure to the citiuation. I truely hope that the range will let go of this person because he is liable to do it again and the outcome might be worst for him or someone else next time.


Good luck


45R

Mike Irwin
July 17, 2003, 01:50 PM
The old man was WAY out of line.

Someone tries to grab my gun from its holster from behind, and I can only interpret that as an active threat.

At the very least I could have spun around swinging.

geekWithA.45
July 17, 2003, 01:53 PM
A) Well done! Restraint was certainly called for.
B) This needs to be discussed at a higher level with the mgt and possibly IDPA leadership
C) My standard working presumption is that anyone who is trying to take my gun intends to either shoot me with it, or clear the way so they can use their own. (This includes gun grabbing politicians)

doctorhumbert
July 17, 2003, 01:56 PM
I just finished talking some one at the range on the phone. I explained him what happened without being upset or confrontational. I explained them of my violation. That, what that 'gent' did was dangerous and could have someone killed at your range, and you should inform IPDA crowd of the incident. He replied by basically saying that IPDA rents our range, so we are not responsible for what they did, and thanks for letting us know. He was not impolite, but didn't seem to be too concerned about the incident and wanted end phone conversation quickly. He did not ask many questions, and it was mostly myself warning them.
I doubt they will do much about this, until someone gets really hurt at their place. I will deal with neither the gun range or IPDA shooters there. There is safer and more caring place 15 away from there.

BOBE
July 17, 2003, 01:57 PM
Simply put,"Two wrongs do not make a right". If he was a RO he should have been fired.:cuss: :fire:

2nd Amendment
July 17, 2003, 01:58 PM
I'd definitely be speaking with the range owner/manager about this fellow. Not so much because of what he did to YOU specifically, since it turned out OK. The thing is, what about next time? Maybe he'll try it on a cop and get himself hurt? Maybe he'll get the weapon and hurt someone else? How many OTHER incredibly stupid actions showing incredibly poor judgement has he made? The old gent may be a perfectly nice guy but he is almost certainly a potential danger to himself or others.

Henry Bowman
July 17, 2003, 02:03 PM
Thanks for the follow-up, Dr.

Were you participating in the IPDA at the time? If not, the range better care. If so, who was in charge? Report it to them. If they don't care or defend the action, there must be a hirerarchy in IPDA (I don't know much about them) that does care.
Edited to add: On second thought, just stay away from there.

Mike Irwin
July 17, 2003, 02:06 PM
"He replied by basically sayint that IPDA rents our range, so we are not responsible for what they did, and thanks for letting us know."

Uh... No, that's not the case. He's a moron if he believes so.

moa
July 17, 2003, 02:29 PM
Your "assailant" is a Range Officer? More like Deranged Officer.

Around here, what he did would be considered at least assault (and maybe attempted theft), and maybe good for thirty days in jail. Maybe suspended sentence if he is lucky.

braindead0
July 17, 2003, 02:43 PM
So in a sense I violated both range rule and IPDA (though I wasn't participating) rule.

There are no rules in IDPA regarding whether the range is hot or cold, those are the Range rules. Obviously the club using the range could add on some more rules should they desire.. but it's not IDPA that's the problem here.

Find out what their IDPA club number is (if they are legi), talk to the IDPA club board (if there is one). If this club is an official IDPA club, contact IDPA headquarters.

spacemanspiff
July 17, 2003, 02:45 PM
i've made mistakes while on a cold range myself. i've corrected others, and watched as others corrected those who make mistakes. its always been a no-nonsense yell to get their attention. never any physcial contact that i've seen though.


the range i shoot at doesnt allow a person to holster the weapon they are shooting when the range goes cold. your weapon must be on the table in front of you, action open and magazine removed. when the RO is calling the shots, you check not only your weapon, but the guy in the lane to your right and to your left that their weapons are safe and empty.

Smurfslayer
July 17, 2003, 03:53 PM
There's been quite a few "if he tried that with me..." replies...

RSO certification does not authorize you to break the law, and reaching for someone else's gun, trying to remove it from the holster ? ? ? ? ? :what:

Another matter entirely if you're 'sweeping' folks with the muzzle...

I haven't once seen anyone suggest what I think I would've done 1st -

C E A S E F I R E ! ! ! ! !

Sort out disagreement off the firing line... right after calling local PD so there's no misunderstandings while the witnesses are still there.

It's unfortunate that a range rule was broken, however, you indicate that the gun _was_holstered, not being handled. You broke the range rules, and many here have pointed that out. Pretty sure you've got a grasp on the violation.

It's more unfortunate that the RO here took the actions he did, in the manner he did. It would be even more unfortunate to allow the possibility that he repeat himself...

thorazine
July 17, 2003, 04:52 PM
I would find another range to go to.

I attended a range that at one time posted a "no loaded concealed carry firearms" sign.

Then they realized that a ND / AD is more likely to occur when they have people fumbling with their firearms, before they enter and after they leave and removed the sign.

I feel more comfortable at a range that runs hot all the time.

Basically, pistol may be chambered and have a loaded magazine, however it is to remain holstered at all times unless you are in a designated shooting lane.

How many firearms accidentally discharge while perfectly seated in the holster?

Chugach
July 17, 2003, 05:07 PM
doctorhumbert, the gun grabber wasn't a range employee, correct?

You talked to "someone" at the range. IMHO, you should make sure that you talk to the owner and explain in detail what happened. The owner is gonna be driven by three things:
safety on the range
no adverse publicity
don't run off paying customers


It's to the owner's advantage (and all of us shooters) to not show up on the evening news as the poster child of negligent discharges within a commercial shooting establishment, especially if injury or death were to occur. In that sense, you're doing the owner an incredible favor by pointing out an extremely unsafe condition.

Ask the owner to contact the IDPA group and lay down the law, telling the IDPA group to self-police or move elsewhere. Who knows what the owner will do...they're gonna be concerned about point 3 above to some degree. At that point, you've done about all you can possibly do.

Good luck. I hope you get to your friendly range soon...

Waitone
July 17, 2003, 05:13 PM
The IDPA may well rent the range for its shoots, but I'll guarantee you the owner pays for liability insurance.

The owner has a vested interest in seeing to it that idiots don't cost him money. Makes no difference who the idiot belongs to.

Brad Johnson
July 17, 2003, 05:17 PM
Just found the thread. I have to commend you on keeping your cool when this idiot went for your gun.

Luckily I've only been around once when some gung-ho type tried this baloney, and thankfully it didn't happen to me. Unfortunately the range idiot (RI) went for the gun of a friend who is a serious - and I mean SERIOUS! - self-defense type who is freaky-fast with any type of weapon. As soon as the RI's hand touched the gun, which was unloaded but had the slide down, there was a blur of motion and he suddenly found himself facing a very loaded and ready-to-fire Glock. Fortunately my buddy is as quick mentally as he is physically so it only took a fraction of a second to realize what was going on. No one was hurt, and it was a valuable reminder for all who were witness to the incident.

The RI had to sit down for a while. When he stopped shaking he admitted that his actions were probably none too bright. We all had to agree.

Brad

Travis McGee
July 17, 2003, 05:26 PM
On a scale of 1-10, what you did was maybe a 2, and what he did was a 9. He's lucky he didn't pull that stupid stunt on an Aikido or Judo black belt, or they would be sewing his arm back on.

DON'T YOU DARE TOUCH MY HOLSTERED GUN!

Kick me off the range or whatever for the mag, but

DON'T YOU DARE TOUCH MY HOLSTERED GUN!!!!

http://matthewbracken.web.aplus.net/authorpic2.jpg

Orthonym
July 17, 2003, 09:41 PM
I wish Dr. Humbert could find some way to let us know exactly which range that is without getting athwart the lawyers, because my sweetie lives very near there and I've been trying to get her to practice more. I'd advise her to avoid this place unless and until they take safety more seriously.

On a more general note: A friend of mine once had one of those little tip-barrel Beretta pocket pistols. He's a very sociable, friendly guy, and was entertaining his usual mix of folks one night when a "guest of a guest" picked up the piece without permission, vy suddenly, and racked the slide. Well, no extractor, I think the guy bent something and the thing never worked right afterwards. I sent a large rocket up my friend's behind,re:

1. "Why did you leave that where a stranger could grab it?"

2. "Why did you let him live? Don't you know that, at least since the invention of the stone knife, messing with another man's weapons without his express permission has been grounds for immediate, painful, summary execution?"
(Edited for ugly bad line wrap 2046 EDT )

P.S. I'd appreciate a PM identifying this range. I hereby promise to tell no one else except the above Sig. Other.

CGofMP
July 17, 2003, 09:49 PM
Second thoughts on the last post deleted :-)

Matt G
July 17, 2003, 11:27 PM
Range officers are The Man In Charge.

For everyone's safety, what they say, goes. I STRONGLY advise everyone to stop and read every rule before shooting at a range. I'm concerned when folks like Edward129837491823759 say they intentionally flaunt the rules. If you openly break the "cold range" rule, who knows you won't decide to disobey a valid RO order, or the 180 rule, etc?

I've personally had some major beefs with RO's, but recognize that they are utterly, totally, completely IN CHARGE. Example: I was at a match two weeks ago, and the RO disallowed me from loading my topped-off magazine into the butt of my 1911 while it was holstered. (You know the drill: Go to the line, RO says "load and make ready." Unholster unloaded pistol, load a mag, rack it once, reholster and snap, remove magazine, load up the Barney Bullet into the top of that magazine to replace the chambered round, and replace magazine into butt of holstered pistol.) For some reason unbeknownst to me, he absolutely forbade me from replacing a magazine into a holstered pistol for an administrative reload. Dumb. There's no safer pistol than a properly-holstered pistol. But he was the R.O. You know what I said? "Yes Sir." And complied.

If the R.O. is not in complete control, someone could get hurt. If we don't agree to that, we probably had best shoot elsewhere, right? Right.

That said, I think that we need to choose our R.O.'s carefully. The R.O. knows (and should know) he's in charge. For some, that could go to their heads. "Respect mah authoritieeeee!"

Clearly, Doc's R.O. was completely out of bounds. As a trained R.O., I've no problems with putting hands on a firearm that's pointing in an unsafe direction, but I can't conceive of trying to remove a safe pistol from a safe holster of an individual who is not acting in a dangerous manner. Dear Gawd, if it's unsafe to carry a loaded gun in a holster, what business did I (a police officer) have carrying one in a SCHOOL this spring?!?

Remember: The Range Officer's in charge. If the Man In Charge is a fool, run, don't walk, out the exit.

doctorhumbert
July 17, 2003, 11:31 PM
Telling which range it is might be against the board rule. I could have made up all these incidents. I leave it to individual judgement. All I can say is that there is other range near by which I highly recommend. It's called Bull's Eye indoor range in Lawrenceville, not very far travel time wise from this one. Their number is (770) 963-6556. They are pretty cool guys.
You still have to follow their range rule though .:cool:

Edward429451
July 18, 2003, 01:06 AM
I'm concerned when folks like Edward129837491823759 say they intentionally flaunt the rules. If you openly break the "cold range" rule, who knows you won't decide to disobey a valid RO order, or the 180 rule, etc?

I hear the tone of your concern Matt, and I wont fault you for it, seeing as you don't know me. Rest assured though, that I am one of the safest people on the range. I am no newbie and I totally respect the authority of the RO. I do not do 180's with my sidearm.

The range I speak of is an outdoor range. I have a lot of eye contact with the RO and have never been tapped on the shoulder for being less than safe. He says clear, I clear, holster, then catch his eye in aknowledgement. I believe he/they've never called me on it because my mannerisms and lack of violations bespeak safety and competance. Much like newbies incompetance is apparent in their mannerisms.

I do not intentionally flaunt the rules par se' but hold myself AS the rules in a very reasonable compromise of safety and common sense. Kind of like Cooper and his violation of rule #2 with his telly. In other words, I don't want to lay my pistol down. I got ripped off for a Glock 21 mag off the table once at this range. I can't really fault the RO for not watching my table for me, the place was crowded. Luckily, they left my Redhawk alone and just took my mag from beside it. I spoke first to the RO of course, but lets face it, it was gone.

I learned a lesson that day and chose to holster instead of table from now on. I know I'm just as safe holstered as others who aren't even touching their guns and I know my property isn't going anywhere. I'm obviously doing it right because they've never called me on it. If they did, I'd comply and probably not return anymore, without saying a word. Usually I'm wearing two on my belt, one front one back so its not like they just didn't notice me. I may not be the best shot, but I exude competance in safety on the range so they afford me the respect of allowing me to holster, and I respect them for that.

Don't try this at home kids, these are real guns. :uhoh:

Pendragon
July 18, 2003, 04:14 AM
I heard that on his way home from the range, the R.O. saw a car with a tail light out and he ran them off the road - just to be safe :)

243_shooter
July 18, 2003, 10:13 AM
Assuming any gun is a loaded gun, it seems to me that trying to remove someone elses gun from a holster (suprising them no less) is an excellent way to wind up with a negligent discharge.. Struggle over gun, gun goes bang, someone/something get's perforated. Not a good situation.

I don't agree with the hot/cold deal.. Every firearm should always be considered loaded, and "hot".. Developing two distinct sets of behaviors regarding firearms ("hot" and "cold") can only lead to trouble when one believes that the gun is "cold" in error.

Go outside and clear the weapon?!? How about point 'er downrange and clear the weapon.. DUH...

Leo

Matt G
July 18, 2003, 01:42 PM
Gotcha Ed. BTW, I just now finally got the series of numbers following your name. Can't believe it took me so long. :o

Re-reading DocHumbert's posts in this threads, I believe I may have made some assumptions regarding the old feller's status. I had thought that it had been established that he was an R.O. Apparently, that fact has not been established.

Woops.

AJ Dual
July 18, 2003, 06:01 PM
The individual was obviously using the rules to feed his own personal gratification at trying to humiliate you.

The rules are to promote safety, not give excuses for power-tripping, and what he attempted to do was about 5 times more dumb/dangerous than your omission.

A verbal reminder to make your pistol safe would have sufficed 100%.

If the person was simply another patron/member, I would have warned him to never, ever touch me in that manner again. That grabbing for a gun, uninvited, in unkown condition, was much more dangerous than your own infraction.

If he was an employee or RO, I would have taken it up with managment, and only then never returned if they were unresponsive, or flippant.

Edward429451
July 18, 2003, 06:43 PM
Gotcha Ed. BTW, I just now finally got the series of numbers following your name.

No harm No foul. Yeah the numbers, 429 = 44 caliber / 451 = 45 caliber.

Big bore fan here!:D

spacemanspiff
July 18, 2003, 07:05 PM
edward, you probably are more safer than i am, you've had way more experience than i have, but if you came to the range i shoot at (rabbit creek rifle range) you'd not only have the RO's chewing you out but also other shooters.
they are very strict about ensuring EVERYONE follows the range rules ALL the time. consider the liability side for the owners of the range.
someone gets injured/killed on accident, and the investigators ask the RO's "do all shooters on the line follow ALL the range rules?"
the RO may call to mind "well there is this one guy who doesnt leave his unloaded weapon on the bench, he holsters it, but i'm sure its always unloaded".
the investigator may then deem the range responsible for accidents that result in injury or death because they didnt enforce all their rules with every shooter.

so your flaunting the range rules may have a harsher impact than you think.

Edward429451
July 18, 2003, 08:31 PM
Well spaceman, you make a very reasonable valid point. All I can say to that is the RO would be an idiot to admit that some people don't adhere to the rules. It would set them up for the fall.

Realistically though, One can seldom pick up a gun without violating a rule. "Dont let the muzzle cover anything you're not willing to destroy", period. Range tables, flooring, whatever. Something that would not be acceptable to shoot is covered with muzzles daily. If a RO wanted to be technically honest answering that question, he would have to say No one does.

But in a practical sense, most are safe and the RO could say "Everyones as safe as can be here", which would be a realistic statement that does not scream 'sue me'. A RO is kind of like a cop. He can enforce the rules all he can and yet many violations will occur that day. Its impossible to be everywhere at once. Getting technical over practical is plain dumb in reality.

I am as safe as safe can be on the range (almost robotic (No ED209 jokes please)) and yet still I violate the rules, technically speaking. When you take practicality and common sense out of the rules (you start sounding like a cop), you take away the intelligence and human responsibility that we all should have.

So Cooper needs his skills more than his telly. Well I need my property to stay put more than I need adherance to a liability / conformity rule. When I choose to holster that pistol rather than lay it down, I holster the responsibility that goes with it.

they are very strict about ensuring EVERYONE follows the range rules ALL the time.

I wouldn't go to a range I've never been to before and try to shove anything down anyones throat. Bad form. I'd go with the flow and politely voice my concerns, and give them a chance to become at ease with my level of demonstrated safety and go from there. WADR, you may be going a little too far with the what if's on this issue. I see your point but its just a wee bit farfetched I think.

We could what if anything to death. What if I layed down a full mag next to my pistol at slidelock on the table, and someones 5 yr old wandered in while I'm downrange changing targets and knew enough to insert mag and drop slide but not enough to not point it at his face and squeeze? Who'd be at fault then, me or the range? If my pistol was holstered on my person this wouldn't have happened. See what I mean? :)

Sorry so long.

MessedUpMike
July 18, 2003, 10:40 PM
Range rules should be followed at all times irregardless of how much sense they make to us. It would reflect on us badly to new people if they see experienced ahooters picking and choosing what rules to follow. It starts with a mag in the holster and works it's way to "But I KNOW the gun isn't loaded", and no nessicarily for the readers on this board.
There is a big difference however between an "Oops" range violation, and a "Are you trying to get somebody killed?" violation. Doc's was certainly the former and did not warrant the response he received. Most of us here are responsilbe people who take or shooting, and therefore the associated safety seriously. Many of these same people (myself included) have had the occasional "oops". This does not mean we need guns grabbed from us and be wrestled to the ground. I wouldn't be going back to that range anymore myself, Heck if I only witnessed that sort of short thinking I'd leave the range, and make sure the manager heard an earful on my way out.
I will give kudos to the doc though for having the presences of mind to continue respecting his elder in the situation, particularly given the behavior that the older gentleman was diplaying himself:D

Good call on self control

Gewehr98
July 18, 2003, 10:56 PM
One of the outdoor ranges I frequent says to lock em back on the table also. I routinely ignore this rule and holster my sidearm. I haven't been yelled at yet. I see the RO looking at me sometimes but I just continue on with what I'm doing while conducting myself in an appropriate manner (safe) and never one word.

It bothers me more that the RO didn't send you on your way home, actually. The ranges I worked at were quite firm on that rule, and, unfortunately, I had to enforce it on more than one occasion. I wasn't a jerk about it, but grabbed the sign-in sheet, with their signature next to the "I understand and agree to abide by the range rules printed above" and asked them if it was indeed their signature. They've just become a higher safety risk, and a liability to the operation of the range, since they can't follow simple instructions.

Granted, keeping your gun with you downrange was one way to prevent another theft from happening. That's a serious kind of pain. But if that particular firing range was a known venue for having firearms and accessories stolen, the problems run deep under the surface, and willfully disobeying posted range rules just adds to them, especially if the RO didn't seem to mind looking the other way during flagrant violations like yours. :(

Edward429451
July 19, 2003, 12:28 AM
Why oh why do you have to be so sensical about this? You last two guys sure make it hard to argue with logic like that. :D

There I was, perfectly content and confident that I'm doing the right thing, being safe, preventing theft, all that stuff, then you come along and start talking like that.;)

I agree. You guys make sense. I especially like the point about being an example to others. If others see me holstered, then they think its cool for them too and soon noone even listens to the RO anymore cause they're 'safe enough already'. Damn good point and I see where my thinking was flawed on this issue.

Touche' indeed. :o

ed dixon
July 19, 2003, 01:33 AM
Ed, since you've seen the light now, I'll watch your guns while you change targets. Take your time.;)

Edward429451
July 19, 2003, 01:54 AM
:scrutiny: :uhoh: :D

larryw
July 19, 2003, 02:41 PM
I'm curious about the rule that was violated. I live in a magazine removed, action open, gun laying on table, not holstered during cease fire world, so maybe this is just ignorance. Since when did removing a magazine ensure a gun was safe? If a holstered gun with a closed action, taking it on faith that the action is clear is allowed on a cold range, what difference does it make if the magazine is inserted? Yeah, I know that's "the rule", but what good does it do? Is this an IPDA thing?

Regardless, old man was way out of line and could easily have killed someone. Perhaps he's one of these old folks who don't know when its time to hang up the keys to the car. I think he needs to be told. :fire:

Orthonym
July 19, 2003, 02:53 PM
Hmmm, Edward, maybe change that last rule to "Don't let the muzzle cover anything EXPENSIVE":)

Tango7
July 20, 2003, 10:11 PM
Just checking back in and saw this...reminded me of a STOOPID stunt I pulled back in the '80's...I think I was about 17-18.

Was at a science fiction convention, and went to the local Radio Snack to buy some misc. geek stuff... in costume. Had my Daisy Airsoft S&W 59 in a Bianchi UM holster on my hip, Black BDU trousers and black t shirt.

While leaning over the counter, I felt a forearm come across my shoulders, and <tug><tug> at my holster. Glancing back I recognized the store manager I'd seen earlier. I offered to release the overflap, since he was having difficulty with it (obviously). He told me "SLOWLY". I Di so, and raised my hands. He removed the "weapon" and, once he realized it was plastic (which probably took this bright boy a while), he handed it back to me, and THEN identified himself as a "reserve deputy" with the sherriff's department (never saw any ID or badge), and he proceeded to "instruct me" about how dangerous my action had been, and how I could have been charged with "disturbing the peace" (after he had made a brief statement about "concealed" and I had asked "In a hip holster?")

Result? I was stupid, but he was a blinkin' idiot (I say this now as a sworn officer for a Chicago suburb) - why not call for backup if he felt threatened, or simply ask me ***?

As an credentialed adult - anybody who tries to disarm me will be disarmed in return. I applaud your sense of restraint - I would have viewed it as a direct threat. I would speak with the range /store owner, and, while acknowledging your technical violation, explain your concerns with him, including his huge liability if anything had happened as a result of negligent action on the part of one of his employees/agents (if he was).

If you enjoyed reading about "Incident at the local range." here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!