Birdshot For HD?


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Fred Fuller
November 8, 2007, 03:47 PM
http://www.defense-training.com/quips/24Oct07.html

Birdshot?

24 Oct 07

Birdshot for defense? This is from an LEO, and one of our instructors, in WY:

"One occasionally hears the suggestion that birdshot, from a shotgun, is an effective home-defense load. The argument is that is won't penetrate excessively, that it is 'effective' at close range, ad nauseam.

I'm currently involved in a murder investigation that has convinced me, beyond all doubt, that the use of birdshot as a defense load is a poor idea indeed!

Our perpetrator, in a high state of intoxication, decided to settle an old score with the victim. After informing the victim of his intentions, he armed himself with an old, Winchester M97 and charged the tube with WW, full-power, 9-pellet, 00 buckshot. Meanwhile, the victim locked himself in his auto-repair shop, and, anticipating the confrontation, also armed himselfwith, of all things, another Winchester M97, but he charged his tube with low-brass, #6 birdshot. The evidence suggests that the victim didn't know much about guns in general, shotguns in particular, and virtually nothing about shotgun ammunition. He obviously thought 'ammunition is ammunition.'

The lethal confrontation took place in the repair shop, with the two combatants separated by less than two meters.

The perpetrator opened festivities by using his shotgun to blow the lock off a locked door. It took two rounds of buckshot. The lock was demolished, and the door blown open.

There was a refrigerator just inside the door, and the victim was a few feet away, on the other side. As the perpetrator advanced, the victim fired one round at him. His aim was poor, and most of the lead shot hit (and failedto penetrate) the refrigerator door. A few struck the perpetrator in the face, destroying his right eye.

The startled perpetrator pulled his head back but immediately rolled back out from behind the refrigerator and fired a single shot. All nine pellets of 00 buckshot struck the victim in the center of his torso. The victim probably suffered a fatal injury, falling where he was hit. The perpetrator then walked over to the victim, who was laying on his back, and fired a second shot into his face from only a few inches. The victim's head was blown to pieces. When we found the body, he was, long since, DRT!

Our perpetrator then walked out the shop, got in his truck, and drove nearly one hundred miles to the small, ranching community where he lived. Only when his eye injury was pointed out to him, as well as the fact that his shirt and trousers were soaked in blood (mostly his own), did he grudgingly concede that he might need medical attention. Hours later, we arrested him at the hospital where he sought aid. He is now on trial for murder and will most likely spend the rest of his life, with only one eye, in prison.

Just another local idiot who had too much liquid courage!"

Comment: When it is your intention to defend yourself successfully, particularly against evil and determined individuals, you're well advised to use a weapon and load that will end the fight quickly and decisively. And, and you better be an adequate marksman too, as you'll likely not get a second chance!

It's an age-old lesson that this victim learned the hard way. Unhappily, he didn't live long enough to put his new-found knowledge to work!

/John

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Jorg Nysgerrig
November 8, 2007, 04:05 PM
So much for the "birdshot acts luck a slug at HD range". However, the victim didn't have to worry about over-penetration.

Good info.

ilmonster
November 8, 2007, 04:19 PM
Not saying that birdshot is necessarily effective, but the story describes that most of the shot struck the refrigerator, only a few hitting the criminal. I'm not sure that proves that birdshot is ineffective at dropping a criminal, just that they weren't mean't to penetrate refrigerators, cars, etc. What if due to a bad shot by the perp. only one or two of the buckshot pellets hit the victim instead of all of them hitting center of mass?
Again, not saying I wouldn't rather have buck in the tube rather than birdshot, just that this unfortunate story really doesn't make the case for most home defense situations where someone is just down the hallway, or in a doorway vs. behind pretty heavy cover.

littlegator
November 8, 2007, 04:22 PM
There's a reason why it's called "bird"shot and not "people"shot.

Jorg Nysgerrig
November 8, 2007, 04:28 PM
not sure that proves that birdshot is ineffective

While it may have made a difference if the full pattern had hit him, I would still contend that if taking a few pellets in the face will leave one with the wherewithal to roll out, fire a shot center mass, walk up for a coup-de-grace, and then drive 100 miles, I would call it ineffective.

What if due to a bad shot by the perp. only one or two of the buckshot pellets hit the victim instead of all of them hitting center of mass?

I tend to believe that one or two pellets of buckshot to the face from "few feet away" would at least prevent the shootee from driving 100 miles.

Certainly one shouldn't base everything on one anecdote, but this isn't the first time we've had stories discussing birdshot being ineffectve.

Deer Hunter
November 8, 2007, 04:42 PM
This kind of information isn't merely anecdotal. This isn't the only "birdshot sucks against things weighing in excess of 30 pounds" story. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to disprove, based on common sense, that birdshot would not act like a slug at close ranges.

campbell
November 8, 2007, 04:45 PM
Just ask yourself what's likely to work. Shot designed to kill a duck? Or shot designed to kill a deer?

KBintheSLC
November 8, 2007, 04:55 PM
Though I agree that birdshot is not as good as buckshot on people, this story is not a case that proves it.
Had the victim been a better shooter and hit the perp square in the face... landing most of the small birdshot in his nasal/ocular cavities. The perp would have been blinded in both eyes and suffered such intense trauma that he would likely have gone into immediate shock. Instead, he was basically shot with a BB gun a couple of times.

This is not a good argument that buck is better than bird.

campbell
November 8, 2007, 05:11 PM
As Dick Cheney demonstrated, a full load of birdshot to the face doesn't even kill a 72 year old.

sacp81170a
November 8, 2007, 05:11 PM
This is not a good argument that buck is better than bird.

I think the point was that the bird shot failed to penetrate an obstacle likely to be found in any home and therefore failed to do sufficient damage to stop the fight. Whether or not a facial hit with a full load of bird shot would have caused immediate shock and stopped the fight is immaterial. What is material is that using birdshot for HD "because it's unlikely to penetrate walls and injure someone you don't want to hurt" is a double edged sword. It's just as unlikely to penetrate an obstacle and hurt someone who needs hurting.

Pete409
November 8, 2007, 09:24 PM
As has been pointed out by several members, this is hardly a valid test or comparison. Had the victim's shot placement been in the center of the chest, face, or abdomen with no refrigerator door in between, then he wouldn't have had much worries about the perp rolling to the floor and firing a shot at him.

Personally, I choose #1 Buck for my home defense shotgun loads.

Titan6
November 8, 2007, 09:38 PM
Slugs.

A 12ga slug will drop a bear at close range, certainly inside your house.

If you have to use bird shot for some reason #2 lead goose (old) is of a lot better than #6. But you have to find it.

madcratebuilder
November 8, 2007, 09:38 PM
If the birdshot shooter had aimed a little better.........:scrutiny:

GTSteve03
November 8, 2007, 09:50 PM
If the birdshot shooter had aimed a little better.........
He wouldn't have needed to aim better if one of those pellets had been 00 buck sized.

I have a feeling that would have stopped the fight right then and there. A .33 caliber to the face generally does that.

Shawnee
November 8, 2007, 10:07 PM
As others have pointed out - declaring birdshot ineffective on the basis of the performance of a few pellets is invalid.
Also - expecting to shoot through a refrigerator to take out an intruder is silliness right out of Dirty Harry.:banghead:

At two meters a full load of #6 shot will take all the fight out of anyone who ever lived (including Clint Eastwood). Prove it to yourself if you care too. Go shoot a piece of 1/2" plywood at 2 meters with 6 shot and see how the experiment turns out. And nobody's hide is tougher than 1/2" plywood.

P.S. Taking a tip from African hunters who have to follow-up wounded lions etc., my choice is for #3 buck rather than a larger size with fewer pellets.

zinj
November 8, 2007, 10:38 PM
At two meters a full load of #6 shot will take all the fight out of anyone who ever lived (including Clint Eastwood). Prove it to yourself if you care too. Go shoot a piece of 1/2" plywood at 2 meters with 6 shot and see how the experiment turns out. And nobody's hide is tougher than 1/2" plywood.


Then birdshot is ideal for plywood defense. After shooting a few raccoons point blank with birdshot loads (they like to tangle with bird dogs) and seeing them carry on fighting I wouldn't trust the stuff for my security.

Gordon
November 8, 2007, 11:47 PM
Holy smokes a Winchester 1897 duel!!! You don't see those everyday!

ArchAngelCD
November 8, 2007, 11:59 PM
Birdshot for birds, Buckshot for a man size animal.

gb6491
November 9, 2007, 12:07 AM
Holy smokes a Winchester 1897 duel!!! You don't see those everyday!
:) ain't that the truth!

Deer Hunter
November 9, 2007, 12:08 AM
Now if both of them had the bayonets (read, swords), perhaps it would have worked out differently.

1lostinspace
November 9, 2007, 12:16 AM
Is there people here really arguing that birdshot is good form of defense with a shotgun?

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot22_2.htm

I load 000 buck because people do weird things when you shoot at them like seek cover.

cwmcgu2
November 9, 2007, 12:29 AM
I load 000 buck because people do weird things when you shoot at them like seek cover.

Funniest thing I'v heard all day.

1lostinspace
November 9, 2007, 12:59 AM
Funniest thing I'v heard all day.

you owe one:p

Robert Hairless
November 9, 2007, 04:11 AM
It might be useful to look at the two tables on the Firearms Tactical Institute (http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm) web site article "Shotgun Home Defense Ammunition" comparing sizes and weights of buckshot and birdshot.

In the example from the story Lee Lapin posted, the victim used #6 birdshot and the villain used #00 buckshot. Each pellet in the victim's ammunition was .11" diameter and weighed 1.95 grains, while each pellet in the villain's ammunition was .33" diameter and weighed 53.8 grains. The conclusion in that article:

Birdshot, because of its small size, does not have the mass and sectional density to penetrate deeply enough to reliably reach and damage critical blood distribution organs. Although birdshot can destroy a great volume of tissue at close range, the permanent crush cavity is usually less than 6 inches deep, and this is not deep enough to reliably include the heart or great blood vessels of the abdomen. A gruesome, shallow wound in the torso does not guarantee a quick stop, especially if the bad guy is chemically intoxicated or psychotic. If the tissue crushed by the pellets does not include a vital cardiovascular structure there's no reason for it to be an effective wound.

Many people load their shotguns with birdshot, usually #6 shot or smaller, to minimize interior wall penetration. Number 6 lead birdshot, when propelled at 1300 fps, has a maximum penetration depth potential of about 5 inches in standard ordnance gelatin. Not all of the pellets penetrate this deeply however; most of the shot will penetrate about 4 inches.

My sense of Lee Lapin is that he always knows the facts.

ugaarguy
November 9, 2007, 04:55 AM
He wouldn't have needed to aim better if one of those pellets had been 00 buck sized.

I have a feeling that would have stopped the fight right then and there. A .33 caliber to the face generally does that.
Just thought I'd quote that because it bears repeating. Given the much greater mass & sectional density of 00 Buck Shot - already noted above - it's likely that a pellet or two of buckshot would have taken out the perpetrator's eye and kept on going, perhaps turning that into a deadly or at least incapacitating wound.

sacp81170a
November 9, 2007, 07:33 AM
I load 000 buck because people do weird things when you shoot at them like seek cover.

Bingo! If you're using bird shot "because it won't penetrate walls and hurt someone", then that's what you should expect will happen when the BG takes cover. 'Nuf said.

sacp81170a
November 9, 2007, 09:11 AM
Also - expecting to shoot through a refrigerator to take out an intruder is silliness right out of Dirty Harry.

Uhh, never had CQB training, have you? Have you ever shot a refrigerator with 00 buck? They're built a lot like car doors, enough metal in some places to stop projectiles, not enough in many others. Look around your house. Most of the things you might think would make good "cover"(IOW, will reliably stop rounds) are actually only "concealment". Mistaking "concealment" for "cover" is a serious mistake. The thing that converts a lot of concealment to cover is using ammunition that won't penetrate the concealment.

That said, if I came home from bird hunting and walked in on an intruder in my house armed only with bird shot, would I give up? Heck no. I'd make do with what I had, understanding the limitations. Would I choose bird shot for the HD shotgun at the bedside? Again, the answer would be no. The difference is whether you're planning on a best case scenario or a worst case scenario and the trade offs that we all have to make based on accurate information. Best case is that I get a clean, frontal shot at the bad guy from no more than 10 feet away with no obstructions, him not wearing a leather jacket, etc. I'm not depending on that to happen.

evbutler462
November 9, 2007, 09:53 AM
After all has been said, my 30+ as an LEO years of wiping bad guys off the floor, attending more autopsies than I care to recall, I will repeat what I have said many times before. It doesn't matter what you use for HD purposes.

My 20 gauge Nova has #6 shot in it that I bought from Walmart. I am quite comfortable knowing that it will "take care of business" should the need arise. I have investigated more shootings with small shot than buckshot. At HD distances, either of them will take down a bad guy if he is hit in the vitals, no matter how many clothes and coats he has on. If he is not hit in the vitals, a 50 cal machine gun won't stop him if he is determined to go on.

We had a firefight when I first started in LE. My buddy got hit in the abdomen with a load of 00 buck. It took out a kidney and he was out of work for a year. He lived to retire. The bad guy got taken down with a 30 cal M-1 carbine, the issue rifle of the time.

I will repeat it for what it is worth: It doesn't matter what you have in your musket. If you have a home invasion, burglary, or the need to take down a bad guy, just put it in the vitals. If a refrigerator is in your way, shoot some more. Keep shooting until the menace is down.

My respects to everyone that disagrees with me. I have been there, done that. Most folks have been lucky enough not to observe the sad incidents I have seen. One or two investigations does not make a certain load better than another. Cumulative years and decades of wiping these creeps off the floor and streets tell me that for HD, it doesn't matter. Just use what you have in the chamber. It will work.

Marshall
November 9, 2007, 11:00 AM
Just use what is bound to me most effective, buckshot. Does birdshot have the ability to stop and or kill a perp? I have no doubt it does. But why not use the shot that has better odds of working, and working better, in less than desirable conditions?

John917
November 9, 2007, 11:02 AM
Wow, that was a freaky story! If it happened to me, I would pell mell out of there, and take my mav 88 and some buckshot/slugs with me, and go hide, rather than wait there for him. How well do you think the high-speed steel #4 turkey/duck-shot would work compared to the birdshot? Also, does anyone know how to make rock salt/bean bag/rubber loads safely? I would like to make a few for HD.

shadowalker
November 9, 2007, 11:19 AM
#4 bird shot at 3 yards penetrates a maximum of 6.5 inches, the FBI determined you need a minimum of 12, and preferably 18 inches of penetration to stop a human threat. No matter how much people want it to be, birdshot is not a man stopper, it is designed for birds after all.

There may be cases where someone was blinded by bird shot or had the first few inches of tissue turned to hamburger but it will not penetrate to vitals reliably even at extremely close range. Someone may choose to disengage after being hit by bird shot, but that doesn't equate to forcing them to stop, they could just as easily finish attacking you, and then go to the hospital. If I'm forced to shoot an attacker I want my ammunition to do everything it can to force them to stop, not choose to.

Over penetration is a concern, we have the responsibility to select the proper ammunition but we but it shouldn't be so much of a concern that one intentionally reduces the effectiveness of their firearm to the point that it wont work. There are plenty of tests around that clearly show bird shot is not a man stopper, the box-o-truth did some good penetration tests.

#00 buckshot is already less of a penetrator than handgun or rifle rounds and is an excellent self defense load, shot smaller than #1 buck may not have enough penetration to stop a bad guy. A bullet capable of penetrating a bad guy enough to reach vitals is going to penetrate several walls.

Intentionally reducing penetration to the point of ineffectiveness is like setting a universal speed limit of 5 MPH because anyone hit by a car at that speed can survive, that may be true but at that point we've eliminated the usefulness of the car.

birdbustr
November 9, 2007, 11:32 AM
I would never use birdshot as HD. If I couldn't get buckshot for some reason, my next choice would have to be something along the lines of a "TURKEY LOAD" #2-5 shot. Turkey loads are going to be the hottest lead loads that you can find, and a turkey's feathers have been known to be able to deflect some bullets if shot at a glance.

Anyway, can you imagine having to pick out hundeds of pellets out of your hide? But then again, anyone that I have to shoot, I will make sure they are DEAD, DEAD, DEAD. Life is too short to be looking over your shoulder or waiting to be sued by someone that lived after you shot them.

charby
November 9, 2007, 11:41 AM
How well do you think the high-speed steel #4 turkey/duck-shot would work compared to the birdshot? Also, does anyone know how to make rock salt/bean bag/rubber loads safely? I would like to make a few for HD.


Home defense is about stopping the threat, not pissing it off.

When it comes to HD would shouldn't look at less than lethal because if it comes down to a gun fight the other guy isn't thinking that. Stop the threat, better that person dead or seriously wounded than you.

About as far as thinking less than lethal on home defense should stop at, should I put in a security system or get a dog as a "watch dog".

Dave McCracken
November 9, 2007, 12:34 PM
Birdshot works if close enough.

Buckshot works, period.

We cannot predict the range of our next firefight. Until we can, I'll use 00.

Omaha-BeenGlockin
November 9, 2007, 12:42 PM
In my younger- more delinquent--days of shooting junk cars---plywood---and most anything else I cared to put a bead on----let me assure you that birdshot will most definitely get the job done on a BG if you do your part.

rantingredneck
November 9, 2007, 12:54 PM
Birdshot works if close enough.

Buckshot works, period.

We cannot predict the range of our next firefight. Until we can, I'll use 00.

Indeed.......

Odd Job
November 9, 2007, 01:03 PM
Dave McCracken said:

Birdshot works if close enough.
Buckshot works, period.
We cannot predict the range of our next firefight. Until we can, I'll use 00.

What he said, +1, QFT, right on bro, that's the truth, I'm with Dave, + 1 million

To be precise, I tend to agree with him.

351 WINCHESTER
November 9, 2007, 01:20 PM
Actually a load of no. 2's or even 4's at normal hd ranges is pretty hard to beat and o/p is usually a non issue. You might be suprised at the amount of damage that birdshot at close range will do. In my opinion it's better than buckshot close up. Now I'm talking point blank to about 10 yds.

Dave Markowitz
November 9, 2007, 03:31 PM
One incident is an anecdote, not data.

That said, I'd load a HD shotgun with buck myself.

Gordon
November 9, 2007, 03:39 PM
"My respects to everyone that disagrees with me. I have been there, done that. Most folks have been lucky enough not to observe the sad incidents I have seen. One or two investigations does not make a certain load better than another. Cumulative years and decades of wiping these creeps off the floor and streets tell me that for HD, it doesn't matter. Just use what you have in the chamber. It will work."

Bro. My utmost respect for your experience BUT mine has been different. I have seen too many survived bird shot wounds to say other than almost contact distance they are not that effective. Almost contact doesn't work for LE OR HD. Sure nobody likes to get shot and a load of #6 in the torso at 20 feet MAY put them down pronto. It likely as not won't however in my 30 years experience. So that won't be good advice to reccomend IMHO.
That said this sounds like a couple shallow end of the gene pool guys.

3fgburner
November 9, 2007, 03:46 PM
Lostinspace beat me to the boxotruth link. My HD / bedroom gun is a Mosberg 500, 18-1/2" barrel, loaded with #1 buck.

rantingredneck
November 9, 2007, 04:16 PM
When the chips are down I don't wanna have to doubt the effectiveness of my chosen HD load. Yes getting shot with birdshot within 10 yards probably sucks big time. But, will the BG have time and strength left to raise his Glock Fotay or whatever he brung to the fight and pull the trigger after being shot with it?

I prefer 00 buck backed up with Brenneke slugs. I haven't patterned any #1 buck out of my HD guns. I've pattern tested some #4 and wasn't thrilled. Within 25 yds I know what my 00 load will do. Within 100 yds I know what my Brenneke slugs will do.

John917
November 10, 2007, 06:07 AM
I see. I understood about the small birdshot, like #8, but I had thought maybe the larger, faster loads would be somewhat comparable to buckshot. I also keep pure buckshot and slugs in my HD. As far as that, I like to put the slug in the mag. tube last, so that it will load first. That way, If I have to take a precise (for a shotgun) shot-as in a hostage situation or something like that, I know I won't be as likely to hit something other than the target. If the BG were to return fire, I would still have buckshot to send his way. In what order do you guys load your duckguns?

1lostinspace
November 10, 2007, 01:08 PM
is this really still going on?

If you don't want to over penetrate then go with 4 buck.

Bird shot is just that.
You will never see a swat or military entry team using bird shot (unless on bird hunting trip)
Do you self a favor and get 4buck or beyond.

Shawnee
November 10, 2007, 01:36 PM
With all respect due to the Feds :barf: and their tests - if you put a load of #6s anywhere along a BG's zipper he is D.O.N.E., and just TWO inches of penetration will be just fine thank you.

;)

1lostinspace
November 10, 2007, 01:53 PM
With all respect due to the Feds and their tests - if you put a load of #6s anywhere along a BG's zipper he is D.O.N.E., and just TWO inches of penetration will be just fine thank you.



And what happens if the attacker is 10 feet away half hidden behind a wall?
Yeah you might spray him but out comes his 45acp putting one in your chest now your dead.

With my 000:evil: I shoot the attacker and have to replace my wall end of story:neener:

1lostinspace
November 10, 2007, 01:57 PM
n what order do you guys load your duckguns?

I load my tube full of 7 000 and have 6 slugs on saddle.

evbutler462
November 10, 2007, 02:51 PM
Shawnee, thanks for your very enlightening post. We are among the few that are not wannabe Rambos. I have been called a sub-species from the lower end of the gene pool. Wow! I always wondered what I was. Now I know.

Go by the expert's advice and protect your castle with whatever you wish. Meantime, me and my little 20 gauge will snuggle up to the fire and get warm. It is rather cold and windy. Ring the doorbell and we will have a hot cuppa coffee. If anyone cares to come visiting uninvited, a hearty and warm welcome, complete with 7/8 oz of #6s.

I mean no disrespect to anyone, even the guy that put me at the lower end of the gene pool. I totally disagree with overdoing anything. My apologies to those whom I have offended by sharing my experiences and advice.

I gracefully bow out of this thread so that the paranoia can resume.


Happy shooting!

Odd Job
November 10, 2007, 03:06 PM
evbutler462 could you please tell me what the size and weight of a single #6 pellet is, and the approximate number of those pellets when found in a standard 12 gauge cartridge?

rantingredneck
November 10, 2007, 03:43 PM
I have been called a sub-species from the lower end of the gene pool.

I think that comment was directed at the two geniuses having the shootout with the 97's, not you.

evbutler462
November 10, 2007, 03:47 PM
Please note that I have bowed out of this thread, However, since you asked, at HD ranges, the load is clumped together and the plastic cup has them all together as one wad of lead. It is not necessary to weigh a pellet. Go outside and shoot at room's distance and you will find this out for yourself.

I was born at night but not last night. I know what a shotgun blast can do at 20 feet, with any size shot, twice the size of a normal room. I refuse to act like a wannabe Commando and overdo anything. Just start shooting and shoot until the threat is over.

NOW, gents, this has gone on long enough, IMHO. I can't convince you. You can't convince me that Rambo style tactics are necessary. Lets drop it and go on to something worthwhile. Maybe someone has a gun that needs repair. Needs advice on how to put it back together. Anything but this, as it is futile to for me to add to this thread any further.

Meanwhile, me and my 20 gauge are going to cut this short and gather around the fire.

Happy shooting!!

Odd Job
November 10, 2007, 03:56 PM
Maybe somebody else can answer my question then...

Shawnee
November 10, 2007, 04:00 PM
Hi Odd... There are 253 #6 pellets (each weighing about 2 grains) in a standard 1 & 1/8 oz. load.

Hi EVB...

"I gracefully bow out of this thread so that the paranoia can resume."

Splendid Idea, Suh! Will be more than happy to leave this thread to the Inspector Callahans.

:cool:

Odd Job
November 10, 2007, 04:07 PM
Thanks Shawnee

eliphalet
November 10, 2007, 04:19 PM
The lethal confrontation took place in the repair shop, with the two combatants separated by less than two meters.Kinda key ain't it?
Six feet is so close the bird shot would tend to act as one, especially when you consider the length of the gun into it.
If you don't think so go take your 12 gauge and shoot some stuff standing 6 feet from it and see for yourself. Just take caution that it is something shot will go through and not steel plate or a concrete wall or some such.
Try a head sized cantaloupe.

James T Thomas
November 10, 2007, 05:29 PM
Considering the 00 shot.

And also that it strikes individually, rather than in a clump.

Approximately 49 grains per 32 cal. pellet would give you a sectional density of 0.07!

That limits penetration significantly.

Now, how about that bird shot?

Dave McCracken
November 10, 2007, 05:49 PM
Ev, rein thy choler. T'was not directed at you.

For the record, I do not want to be shot with 6 shot. I do not want to be shot with anything.

I REALLY do not want to be shot with Buckshot.

Connect the dots.....

1lostinspace
November 10, 2007, 06:53 PM
We are have the right to pack what ever we want I prefer 000 that all.

Gordon
November 10, 2007, 08:46 PM
"even the guy that put me at the lower end of the gene pool. I"


MOST people understood well enough the new paragraph referred to the 2 hicks with the 97's. I am offended that you disregarded my stated utmost respect for your 30 year LE experience and make a slanderous misrepresentation.However you are still a brother retired officer and I hope you don't take offence. The devil's in the details mostly.
In the group of retired officers I hunt with , with 6's and 12gas we tell each other "don't Cheney me please" when hunting in brush. When we go as reservists to an incident it's "don't kill me with cross fire" with a slug or buck!

sixgunner455
November 10, 2007, 09:53 PM
I think that, had the victim used 00 buck, that most of pellets would have gone through the refridgerator door instead of stopping it. If the perpetrator was positioned such that the door of the fridge gave him cover from the other pellets, as is suggested by the fact that a few of the pellets hit him, then ammo which would perforate the fridge would likely have put him in added danger of more holes in his hide. Thus, if one of the pellets cleared the door of the fridge and hit him in the eye, even if its only effect was to blind him in that eye, some of the other pellets may have hit him lower on his face/neck/ torso and incapacitated him more effectively.

To me, this is a clear example of why to use buckshot instead of birdshot if you are using a shotgun to protect yourself -- you may not have to just hit a person, but you may have to shoot through some type of light barrier in order to do so.

Justin
November 11, 2007, 10:17 AM
This is only one anecdote among many.

Remember Dick Cheney's hunting buddy?

Remember the story that was posted here a few months back that dealt with an altercation between two men over the shooting of one's dog? That guy took a full blast of bird shot to the face, and they interviewed him on the news.

I've also seen more than one mug shot of an apprehended criminal with a pattern of bird shot in their face. (Granted it was in a discussion thread over at fark.com, so take that for what it's worth.)

In the realm of personal experience, I once shot a 55 gallon drum with a 20 Ga bird shot round, and was quite amazed that the shot did not even penetrate the drum, instead only denting it.

Are all of the above anecdotes? Yep. But there sure do seem to be a lot more anecdotes speaking to the anemic performance of bird shot than there are for buck shot.

Maybe all of these people who've survived bird shot wounds were just very lucky. I don't know. However, it seems to me that using buck shot or slugs would make it even less likely that the person trying to kill you will get lucky.

Pick the right tool for the job. There's nothing "Rambo" about that.

Odd Job
November 11, 2007, 11:04 AM
Are all of the above anecdotes? Yep. But there sure do seem to be a lot more anecdotes speaking to the anemic performance of bird shot than there are for buck shot.

Indeed, a good place to see the various failures of birdshot is in the hospital. Even if you don't have a trauma unit, you will find evidence of the failure of birdshot to penetrate adequately, just by observing the incidental findings on radiographs. (An incidental finding is something that is found by chance. For example a chest X-ray is done because the patient is short of breath and multiple small shotgun pellets are seen on the radiograph. Or a vertebral arteriogram may be done and birdshot may be seen embedded in the back of the person's head).

I have seen three live acute cases of birdshot injury. Two were in South Africa and one was here in the UK. Only the close range shot was fatal (by close range, I mean that there was a rat-hole entrance wound and the shotcup was present in the wound). That patient survived a helicopter ride into town where he was picked up by ambulance and brought to our trauma unit. He survived the resuscitation process but did not survive theatre. The entrance wound was left flank and most of his abdominal organs were damaged. Penetration was acceptable, in my opinion.

The other two cases were right upper quadrant/lower right chest shots involving the liver. The first one in South Africa was an innocent bystander at a late night petrol station that got robbed. He took a shot to the abdomen and had minor liver injuries. Most of the pellets were stopped in the superficial tissues (he was a bit stocky, carrying a few extra pounds). He survived with no complications.
The last case happened here in London, where an independent pharmaceuticals salesman was shot at close range while he was seated in the car. His assailant fired from just outside the open window and the shot pattern hit the victim half on the forearm and half in the right upper quadrant of the liver. The forearm wound was bad and required extensive plastic surgery. The abdominal wound resulted in minor liver damage but the guy survived.

I have a question for those who recommend birdshot for defense:

1) Do you also support the use of Glaser ammunition instead of FMJs of the same weight for self defense (assuming that's all you could choose between)? Because to me that is the same as using birdshot in a shotgun.

Titan6
November 11, 2007, 11:11 AM
At ten feet out of a 30" barrel bird shot will not penetrate 16 ga steel, try it yourself. If that is what you want to use then go for it. I suggest you get a semi-auto and keep pulling the trigger though.

1lostinspace
November 11, 2007, 11:53 AM
00-000 it's so easy a caveman can do it.

tkendrick
November 11, 2007, 12:08 PM
For me the question has always been one of range. At close range, with direct hits, either can be fatal. Open the range out to say, 25 yards.....

I ran a series of tests several years ago for a private security firm. Using Mossberg riot guns and standard 2.75" 00 shells (11 pellets) at 25 yards, we fired 5 rounds per test on a silouette target. We fired this series 10 times.

Out of 55 pellets fired, per test, we averaged LESS THAN one hit per five rounds.

At the same range, the number of hits for #6 birdshot was substantial, but I agree that penetration would not be there.

My conclusion was simple.

Shotguns are last weapon I would use in a HD scenario. You would be better off with a .22.

sacp81170a
November 11, 2007, 12:36 PM
I ran a series of tests several years ago for a private security firm. Using Mossberg riot guns and standard 2.75" 00 shells (11 pellets) at 25 yards, we fired 5 rounds per test on a silouette target. We fired this series 10 times.

Our qualification course for the shotgun requires slugs from 50, 40, and 25 yards. Never had anyone fail to qualify on that portion. We switch to 00 buck at 20 yards and 15 yards and have had several people fail to qualify because they couldn't put enough pellets on the target. Usually it's a problem with that particular shotgun or that particular load which we have been able to fix by switching to a different load or a issuing a different gun. Bottom line, pattern your shotgun with the load you plan to use. I've had very good luck with the Federal Flight Control LE loads so far. YMMV.

I still can't help thinking, why not just use slugs? Less complicated, and unless I plan on dispersing a riot with 00, it's not any better than a hit with a slug. Hmmm....

goon
November 11, 2007, 12:38 PM
tkendrick - my tests with my Mossberg were not as thorough as yours but I still came to about the same conclusion. At 25 yards it spreads pretty fast and at 40 yards you would be spraying the entire rear end of a sedan with it.
My solution was to try different loads until I found some that it liked. Which is basically any buckshot Federal loads. With those, it averages about 2-3 pellets in the 10 ring and the rest in the torso somewhere. They are almost always all on the target. I have some 3" stuff that has 15 pellets to the load so if I had to use buckshot at that range, that's what I would want to use (even with the increased recoil). More pellets is always better.
My real solution is to keep the gun loaded with Federal tactical buckshot and just keep a box of slugs close too. Shotguns are versatile so why not make use of that and choose the best load for the job?

Gordon
November 11, 2007, 12:42 PM
Same conclusion that LAPD and many other savvy PDs have come to. AND those stray buckshot pellets seem to find innocent bystanders very well!

Oldnamvet
November 11, 2007, 02:16 PM
A couple of years ago a friend of mine was waling along a trail, whistling at the conclusion of a successful turkey hunt. He had the turkey slung over his left shoulder with his left hand pretty much on top of his shoulder. A old gentleman, confused as to where he was supposed to be hunting, had fallen asleep against a tree just a ways off the trail along which my friend was walking. The whistling woke him up, he said he thought he saw a flying turkey (at about 2 mph) and fired a turkey load at "it". He hit my friend in the side of the head, neck, and hand (about a dozen BBs). He walked a few feet, put everything down, and called his wife on a cell phone to get the police and an ambulance for him. Other than a few pellets that they could'nt extract due to proximity to the eye and some of the nerves of the neck, he came out OK. The old guy had his hunting license pulled permanently. Point is that even a turkey load isn't necessarily a man load. We are all just grateful that he wasn't loaded with buckshot, which it was said he did also have in possession for some reason.

tkendrick
November 11, 2007, 03:15 PM
Shotguns are versatile so why not make use of that and choose the best load for the job?

That's just my point. They are not versatile. They are cumbersome, they have limited magazine capacity and they are slow to reload.

still can't help thinking, why not just use slugs?

In that case, as no one seems concerned with over-penetration, then why not just use a high cap 9mm or 45?

The only valid reason for using a shotgun over a handgun or rifle in an HD situation that I have ever heard, is the concern of over-penetration.

If one is concerned about killing the neighbors sleeping child in the next apartment, or the house next door, then one is is limited to light weight bird shot. To use heavy buckshot loads in such a scenario is no better (and probably worse) than indiscriminately blasting with a high-cap rifle or pistol.

If you are not worried about over penetration, ie a rural or industrial setting, then the shotgun makes even less sense, as the range has increased to make hits questionable.

Granted, there are no "perfect" solutions, but a shotgun for HD is close to imperfect in any scenario I can think of.

eliphalet
November 11, 2007, 05:27 PM
One thing I do know about bird shot hitting you first hand is, it doesn't feel good even as it returns to earth. I was a youngster many years ago and got my dirt bike in some heavy sand on the outside of the berm at a trap range. The durn stuff was raining on me, with the sand to deep to ride in. I had to get off the bike and push it as I ran the throttle till I could get past the place. Buy the time the sand stopped me I was about half way no way to retreat except to go the way I was headed. Take my word for it it isn't the way to spend the afternoon.
BTW no helmet warm day no jacket ouch!
One of those things you only do once.

Also had some quail hunters hit me on top of my ear once, that hurts too.

My shotgun for home safty has buck shot in it.

Pete409
November 11, 2007, 06:01 PM
"That's just my point. They are not versatile. They are cumbersome, they have limited magazine capacity and they are slow to reload."

My home defense shotgun holds 8 rounds in the magazine. I have it loaded with #1 Buck. There is no where inside my house that even approaches 25 yards range. The maximum distance I might take a shot inside my house is about 35 feet.

If I can't get the situation resolved with 8 shots of #1 Buck (plus 6 more from the carrier on the buttstock), then I probably couldn't get it resolved with any type firearm.

Gordon
November 11, 2007, 07:26 PM
And you can't compare a 12ga. slug (or a close in buckshot load) with a 9mm or 45 handgun! I'd say a rifled slug is about 5 times as potent as a 45 and about 8 times a 9mm. In fact I have a hard time thinking of any shoulder fired weapon as devastating to humans as a slug with in 30 yards or so. I had a .358 Norma that shot 158 grain soft point pistol bullets at 3200 fps that might be close, but I can roll them slugs out my 870 pretty darn fast!

rantingredneck
November 11, 2007, 07:30 PM
With my primary HD shotgun (20" Rem IC Rifle sighted) all 8 pellets of a Rem Managed recoil 00 load will stay on an 8.5 x 11 paper at 25 yds. At 10 yds they only spread about 3-4 inches. 10-11 yds is the longest shot I could possibly take within the confines of my house. But even at 25 yds..........hold an 8.5 x 11 paper up to your chest..........Yeah. It'd be ugly.

With my Mossberg 835 with modified choke all 15 pellets of a Winchester 3" magnum load will stay within a 10" circle at 25 yds. Remington 3" gives very similar performance. 3.5" loads give a few more pellets but about the same size pattern.

If I have to engage targets beyond 25 yds, that's why there are Brenneke slugs in the sidesaddle or butstock of my HD shotguns (with the exception of the 835 where slugs are a no-no). Also why the last 2 rounds in the mag are slugs. If I chew through 5 rounds of 00 buck and the situation hasn't been resolved, my feeling is more buckshot isn't going to resolve it.

I just picked up another Mossberg today in a trade. 18.5 inch barreled 500AT. We'll see how it patterns when I can get to the range with it. Got an 18" 870 that needs patterning too. Next range trip is gonna be a shotgun fun day I think :)

foghornl
November 12, 2007, 02:48 PM
Birdshot for HD? ? ??


Only if I am in a 1960's Alfred Hitchcock movie....

ndolson
November 12, 2007, 03:54 PM
Is there people here really arguing that birdshot is good form of defense with a shotgun?

Funny isn't it....

JShirley
November 12, 2007, 04:47 PM
P.S. Taking a tip from African hunters who have to follow-up wounded lions etc., my choice is for #3 buck rather than a larger size with fewer pellets.

Shawnee: Sir, I would love to see your documentation for this.

Regards,

John

Carl N. Brown
November 12, 2007, 06:37 PM
Ballistic gel tests of 12 ga shotgun loads show that at
across-the-room ranges, birdshot will penetrate five inches
while buckshot penetrates eighteen inches in ballistic gel
the consistency of flesh.

Birdshot rapidly loses energy: more area and wind resistence
per ounce compared to buckshot.

Jimmy Newman
November 12, 2007, 06:57 PM
P.S. Taking a tip from African hunters who have to follow-up wounded lions etc., my choice is for #3 buck rather than a larger size with fewer pellets.
Shawnee: Sir, I would love to see your documentation for this.

Regards,

John

Me too... I've heard plenty of stories of using shotguns to go after wounded big cats, but they've all involved slugs.

JShirley
November 12, 2007, 10:14 PM
The only mention I know of using light shot against big cats is an anecdote by Peter Capstick, who could "tell a good story" (but it might be just that).

greyeyezz
November 13, 2007, 09:40 AM
If you are worried about over-penetration in an apartment type setting I would use these.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/greyeyezz/P1010590.jpg

hamourkiller
November 13, 2007, 01:17 PM
To each his owne. Use what ever helps you to sleep at night. 2 3/4 baby magnum # 1 buck = 20 pellets x 8 loads = 160 .30 cal pellets before reloading.
Works for me.

I have killed deer with both fine shot and buckshot, fine shot is a slow killer unless central nervous system is hit at very close range. Buckshot will break bones and sever the spinal column. Buckshot is unquestionably the better killer of the two.

If over penetration is a concern, you can go with a .223 carbine using the 55 gr soft points. They break up on dry wall and studs, but will devestate the human body at close range.

I have a battery of loaded weapons in the bed room, each has its specific function. Handgun, rifle, shotgun. Become good with all three, know the strengths and weaknesses of each. When the time comes you will know which to pick up.

Zoogster
November 15, 2007, 03:41 PM
I would not choose birdshot for home defense. However I have played around with it on various targets. At very close range, say between 3-5 feet even the smallest birdshot will blow 2x4s in half.
I have taken wooden pallets (constructed mainly out of 1 inch planks) apart 1 shot per piece of wood and never had a failure to smash a board.
(cleaning up of course, even though other shooters had left tons of trash mine would have blended in with)

In fact it is quite informative as you can go back a several feet and lose the effect, and go forward and gain the effect. A couple feet changes whether it blows the boards cleanly in two, makes a tear and somewhat blows them apart, or merely peppers them with tiny holes.
If it will blow apart wood like that then I know at a similar distance it would severely damage a limb, a joint, a skull, or the ribs on the chest cavity. It would be like hitting something with a heavy hammer.

Most gelatin tests are done at a safe and uniform distance of over 10 feet away. At that distance the small shot no longer has the effect described above.

I would feel competent at contact distances with bird shot. I would not choose to load bird shot, and I would stick with #1 buck or larger. Perhaps being willing to settle for #4 buck if special circumstances warranted.

Yet any birdshot will do some damage at contact distances.
Think of breeching rounds. If powdered metal at contact distances will smash locks, door frames etc, what do you think it would do to a skull or chest cavity? Well birdshot will be at least as effective from such distances. In fact birdshot is the original breaching load, before rounds were designed for just that purpose. They wouldn't do a thing to the lock from 10 feet away, so why would they do much to ballistic gel from 10 feet away.

Load buckshot, but don't underestimate the anti personel capabilities of birdshot at very close range.

Gordon
November 15, 2007, 08:26 PM
I went thru a "contact distance" course with Louis Awerbuck last year. A shotgun is really easy to snatch or at least divert while you reek havoc at that range if you are trained and have explosive strength.Now if you back off to 20 feet or more your stuff is pretty much out if you try anything. Course at those distances you better be having buckshot.

Pete409
November 16, 2007, 08:12 AM
Excellent assessment, Zoogster!

Leadhead
November 16, 2007, 11:09 AM
Wow...Great thread Lee! :)

Don't forget boys....When using birdshot for self defense you should always mount your bayonet first!

Carl N. Brown
November 16, 2007, 02:33 PM
12ga with birdshot is more credible for home defense than
an RG10 in .22 short or a Clerke First in .32 S&W short.

My HD shotgun is usually with 00 though.

KBintheSLC
November 16, 2007, 06:11 PM
Also, does anyone know how to make rock salt/bean bag/rubber loads safely?

I would not waste your time with this type of stuff. If the threat does not deserve lethal force, then don't use a gun. If the threat does deserve lethal force, then and only then you pull the gun... including real ammo.

Remember that most perps will be armed too. Why risk your butt?

Load buckshot, but don't underestimate the anti personnel capabilities of birdshot at very close range.
+1... this says it all.

Jeff F
November 17, 2007, 12:38 PM
Buckshot would have probably blown right through that refrigerator and still had the power left to do some major damage.

lesjones
November 17, 2007, 01:13 PM
tkendrick , I think you make some good points about shotguns' limitations at range. You really have to know the gun and the match the load to the distance. It isn't easy and that's why the shotgun is a specialized weapon.

I do think you're exaggerating the problem somewhat at home defense ranges. Not many people have 25 yard sighting planes inside their homes. My longest is about 15, and five to eight yards is more likely. 00 Buck would work fine here.

One reason to use shotguns is the sheer power they offer. Nine .33 balls or a single .73 ball weighing an ounce is a heck of a lot of lead to send downrange.

Rampant_Colt
November 17, 2007, 01:27 PM
Birdshot for self defense? No thanks..... Just don't insist that I make the same mistake.

Federal reduced recoil Flight-Control 000 buckshot, Remington reduced recoil slugs, or Winchester low recoil 00 buck for my shotguns.

32 Magnum
November 17, 2007, 04:37 PM
Last year, my nephew was bow hunting deer from a tree stand 14" up.
A 72 year old man, who was turkey hunting, approached and mistaking my nephew for a treed turkey cut loose with a 12 ga. 3" magnum loaded with #4 birdshot. The state police determined the approx. distance from the shotgun to my nephew was 47 feet. The shot pattern pretty much centered on my nephews upper torso. He was wearing a USMC issue field jacket with liner, a heavy flannel shirt, cotton long john top and a tee-shirt. At the hospital, the doctors removed 39 pellets from my nephew and left about a dozen more in place because of where they were located (he still sheds one now and then). Internal damage included two in the left lung, one in the right, small intestine nicked in three places, two pellets embedded in the liver capsule. The rest of the pellets removed were from back muscles and upper right arm. He had seen the guy approaching and watched as the old feller aimed and squeezed, he turned to his left and raised his right arm just in time to protect his face and neck. He also had a pellet pass through his thumb and two went through his right ear. At that range it didn't kill him, but left him pretty damn sore for about 3 months. The doctor told him that if he had been shot from any closer distance he probably wouldn't have made it - blood loss was pretty severe - it took about 45 minutes to get him to a hospital. The old guy helped him down from the stand and told him to go home and just take a shower and put some iodine on the visible wounds - neither of them thought there was as much damage as there actually was - because "bird shot" isn't very penetrating on clothed humans. He also told my nephew to be more careful, if he was planning to hunt there the next day, because the old feller was going to come back, also Well...the police tracked down the shooter and eventually he was given three months in county lock-up (suspended) 3 years probation, lost his shot gun and his hunting privileges for 10 years.

RNB65
November 17, 2007, 04:54 PM
Good post, 32 Mag. Glad to hear your nephew made a good recovery.

Your post is a great real-world example of why birdshot should NEVER be used for HD. The shot did a lot of damage, but it obviously did not incapacitate your nephew. Had he been an armed intruder, particularly one high on crack, crystal meth, ecstasy, or other powerful stimulant, he would have had no trouble returning fire. Bird shot is great on birds, small rodents, and snakes. But for human vermin, I want something with a bit more stopping power -- 00buck and slugs.

rantingredneck
November 17, 2007, 05:08 PM
First let me say I'm very happy that your nephew is OK and that the shooter is no longer a danger to other hunters in the woods.

A couple of observations though:

47 feet is 15.67 yards. Not terribly far when you really look at it. Not much farther than the longest distance (about 11 yards) shot that I could take inside my house. And my house is relatively small.

This was also a 3" magnum turkey load of #4 birdshot. Much more powerful than the usual 1 oz or 1 1/8 oz load of #6-#8's that we usually think of as birdshot in these situations.

The wounds your nephew received were serious and life threatening, but were they wounds that would have immediately stopped him if this were an exchange of fire in a defensive situation rather than a hunting accident? I wasn't there and therefore cannot say on that one, but from the description it seems like he could have possibly returned fire had he been armed with a firearm had this been an intentional shooting and not an accident.

I guess the point I'm trying to make is that while your nephews story is an awful one it actually supports the case against birdshot for a defensive load.

May his recovery continue and his hunts be safe from here.

throdgrain
November 18, 2007, 12:44 PM
Over here in the Land Of The Perpetually Monitored we cant get buckshot (afaik) , Ive got a couple of boxes of AAA sitting around as my best bet.

What do you guys reckon to the effectivity of AAA?

Bartholomew Roberts
November 18, 2007, 01:10 PM
Somebody mentioned earlier that 2" of penetration would be just fine... Here is a cross-section of an average human torso. It is 20" wide. Take a look at that and the location of the critical organs and decide if 2" is going to be acceptable (heck...look at some of the angles and ask if 5-6" isn't too shallow).

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=62607&d=1187581713

Charles Foxtrot
November 18, 2007, 01:21 PM
.
Been told (at the range, fwiw) that the Secret Service Presidential Detail uses 4/0 Buck in their shotguns.

Anyone confirm/ deny?

Rampant_Colt
November 18, 2007, 01:29 PM
Over here in the Land Of The Perpetually Monitored we cant get buckshot (afaik) , Ive got a couple of boxes of AAA sitting around as my best bet.

What do you guys reckon to the effectivity of AAA?
Triple A? LoL
40mm, 57mm? Just kidding.

Do you mean Winchester AA? Trap loads? If so, then no, they're unsuitable for self-defense, but better than nothing

Just don't use anything smaller than #4 buckshot

throdgrain
November 18, 2007, 01:32 PM
Well there's not much option really ;) AAA carries about 50 pellets I beleive, and is the best bet as I say. Its a long way from no. 6 pigeon shot in fairness, but a long way buckshot too ....

Also in fairness Im a lot less likely to be shot in my home too, but its nice to be prepared :)

phil_in_cs
November 18, 2007, 01:39 PM
as an aside on penetration...
My dad is a retired doctor. He did his interning at Dallas Parkland in the early 1950's. One day ambulances brought in two men, each of whom had been shot with a .22LR pistol in separate instances.
Guy #1 was shot in the upper left chest; entry hole right over the heart. The bullet struck a rib and stopped. Dad pulled it with tweezers and put a band aide on it.
Guy #2 was shot just above the left knee. The bullet hit his femur, deflected upwards, ripped the femoral artery, ripped his lower guts, and ended up in his lung. Dead on arrival.
The point here is that sometimes you never know, and you shouldn't make generalizations from a single instance.

zinj
November 18, 2007, 01:42 PM
Over here in the Land Of The Perpetually Monitored we cant get buckshot (afaik) , Ive got a couple of boxes of AAA sitting around as my best bet.

What do you guys reckon to the effectivity of AAA?

I'm guessing that English AAA is close to American BBB or T. If that is true, it is certainly better than a light field load, though it definately still has limits. British criminal law being what it is, however, I'd keep that to yourself.

EDIT: Checked, and it looks like English AAA is equivalent to American T, with a pellet diameter of .20". It is closer to buckshot than a trap load. As a reference #4 buckshot is .24". Still, penetration is iffy.

Been told (at the range, fwiw) that the Secret Service Presidential Detail uses 4/0 Buck in their shotguns.

Anyone confirm/ deny?

I'd give as much value to that information as what you paid for it.

throdgrain
November 18, 2007, 02:02 PM
British criminal law being what it is, however, I'd keep that to yourself.


Too right mate :)

Regolith
November 18, 2007, 11:52 PM
I have 3" steel T loads in my shotgun, simply because I can't find any buckshot locally. I STILL haven't gotten around to testing penetration, but given that lead BB shot has just enough penetration to be considered viable for self defense, and given that steel is less dense than lead, I'm going to say that its close, but will probably be effective at the maximum ranges I'm looking at defending (Between 4 and 9 yards).

I'd still rather have buckshot. I plan to order some over the internet when I get a shorter barrel for my SG, but I haven't had the money to do so for a while.

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