Myth or Fact?


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cwmcgu2
November 9, 2007, 01:18 AM
Heard a lil tidbit the other day and was wondering if it was true or just some fudd myth:
-Don't clean your gun after zeroing it before hunting because a clean gun will be off zero till you get a few shots down the barrel.
So... true or false? I am going deer hunting for the first time Saturday (my excited face=:D) and I havn't had the chance to clean my rifle since checking zero at the range last Saturday. Clean it tommorow or not?

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Frog48
November 9, 2007, 01:23 AM
I'm 99.9% sure its just a myth.

I've noticed no change in zero from simply cleaning my deer rifle. Its a Savage 110 in .30-06, if that matters.

Deer Hunter
November 9, 2007, 01:26 AM
If there really is a change, I doubt it'd be enough to tell the difference at any range you'd be hunting.

1lostinspace
November 9, 2007, 01:26 AM
myth

what will very your point of impact is temp elevation cold bore not holding the same way lets say you 0 using prone position and now your shooting at a target standing. Just do your best

cwmcgu2
November 9, 2007, 01:26 AM
K thanks guys.

strambo
November 9, 2007, 01:38 AM
Not a myth...but it depends. Both a clean and a cold bore can change point of impact from a cold fouled or warm and fouled bore. The difference is usually small and varies from rifle to rifle. Some rifles it doesn't change at all, others it can be a MOA off.

For hunting it shouldn't matter. Also, your rifle and load may not have the inherent accuracy to notice a difference. If your rifle shoots 1 1/2" groups at 100yds and the POI shift on a clean cold bore is 1/2" or less, it won't necessarily show up.

bang_bang
November 9, 2007, 02:36 AM
When you're aiming at a circle the size of a quarter at 100 yards, maybe a clean gun will be a little off, or at least more noticeable. But when you're shooting at a deer, you'll have a larger kill zone. I hunted for 2 years with a factory bore sighted 7 mag and killed several deer, from 20-120 yards, with one shot. I'd say for the average hunter/plinker; it's a myth.

dakotasin
November 9, 2007, 02:55 AM
not a myth in most cases.

clean your gun and go put a round or two down it and see if/how much change you have.

most guns will change about 1-2 moa for the first shot from a clean, oily bore. some guns need 2 or 3 shots to settle down, some need 5 or 6. run your own test and see.

personally, i never hunt a clean bore.

jimmyraythomason
November 9, 2007, 02:59 AM
It was once a common practice to have your hunting gun "one shot dirty". That is,firing one shot after cleaning. This was to remove any excess oil from the bore. An oily bore has much less resistance to the bullet travel resulting in higher velocity and a wild or high first shot. Did it amount to much? I don't know but in the days of "make EVERY shot count" they didn't take chances. FWIW

Selfdfenz
November 9, 2007, 03:15 AM
I have two rifles for which it most certainly is not a myth. One of them is my main hunting rifle.

All the others don't seem to be impacted or at least not enough to worry about.

Best

S-

cwmcgu2
November 9, 2007, 03:23 AM
Ok, well I guess I leave the thing dirty for the weekend. I'll have to clean it afterwards so there's no reason to clean it right before anyway

Twud
November 9, 2007, 03:35 AM
I have always fired a fouler before going hunting because my deer rifle will shoot high from a wet bore. I've proven this at the range by cleaning it and shooting 2 rounds. The first will be high and the second will fall into a previously fired group. Idealy, I would shoot a fouler from a clean bore.
I've also seen the same thing happen with my muzzle loader.
In your situation you've got a dry dirty bore which is preferable to wet clean one.

Medusa
November 9, 2007, 04:00 AM
Well, running a patch through just might help. I prefer to wipe the bore dry, so first shot goes through clean dry bore. Oil makes the bore slicker and burns.

U.S.SFC_RET
November 9, 2007, 07:37 AM
Whenever I had to qualify in the Army I always shot 39 out of 40 because of the first shot always missed. It is a fact that a clean, scrubbed out bore will miss slightly off target. I really get the term Fouling Shot confused. But if you zero a round from the pipe so to say either do it from squeaky clean "which I don't trust" or foul it with a shot first.

sacp81170a
November 9, 2007, 07:52 AM
Fouling shots are no myth. Bench rest competitors do it all the time and provisions are made for fouling shots in their matches. Neither is the fact that a shot from a cold bore will have a different POI than a shot from a warm bore. That said, when you're putting 10 shots in a group not much larger than the bore of your rifle (they even use target backers for each shot to confirm that a shot was indeed fired) at 300 yards, you're way beyond the accuraccy required to take game animals. There's "minute of angle" and there's "minute of deer". I'd make sure my zero was a "cold bore" zero, clean the rifle, and then fire one or two fouling shots. Should be plenty for hunting accuracy.

Blackfork
November 9, 2007, 07:57 AM
I shoot a lot of Highpower Rifle Competiton, Dist, Current Texas Highpower Rifle Champion, State NM Team, NRA High Master classification, et.

The first shot out of a clean barrel is not going in the X ring. Unless there are sighting shots in a match, I would NEVER clean a barrel before taking a cold barrel important shot. At CMP week at the Camp Perry, I clean the bolt on my AR a couple of times, but never the barrel.

There are lots of MOAs on a whitetail, but last year when I shot eight deer with seven different rifles, I didn't shoot any of them with a clean barrel. I checked the zero at the range and left it where it was on the last zeroed shot.

There is no point in cleaning it- you are just going to clean it again when you put it up for the year. Zero it and leave it dirty. Believe me, it's not THAT dirty.

Hunting tomorrow with a P17 and my .45 Les Baer.....both zeroed and uncleaned.

db_tanker
November 9, 2007, 08:07 AM
what blackfork said....


its mostly for benchrest and competition shooters now I think.


D

yesit'sloaded
November 9, 2007, 10:38 AM
You can always zero your rifle for a CCB (clean cold bore) shot. Clean your barrel, shoot a round, wait at least ten minutes for cool down, clean again, shoot, repeat until rifle is zeroed from a clean cold bore.

M1key
November 9, 2007, 10:39 AM
Bought a slightly used Remington 700 in 308...first shot out of clean cold barrel was 8 inches high at 100 yards...subsequent 9 shots went into 1 inch group in the x-ring...tried different loads, dirty barrel, clean barrel, nothing changed...always shot high with first one.

I could have zeroed for the first only, but what if i needed a follow-up shot?...decided I had a bent or bad barrel and returned it for refund.

rangerruck
November 9, 2007, 11:24 AM
In the latest Rifle' magazine, a dude did this very test. he used 6 rifles, all of diff cals and styles, and test clean bbls, clean and dry bbls, dirty bbls, recent dirty bbls, and dirty bbls for a week or more.
Long story short, quality and stiffness of bbl makes a diff. All rifles shot differently under all these different conditions. usually the first shot was high under all these conditions, but the group following would be pretty close, usually within 2 inches of first shot, and get closer with successive shots. one rifle, A ruger 7 mag, could not be predictable at all with the first shot, nor it's follow up groups. the best rifles, which put it's first shot closest to it's point of aim, under all the above conditions, and kept it's groups closest to those first shots, were in order, a Cooper heavy bbl in 243, Savage predator Series in 223, and believe it or not , a winnie 94 in 30.30.

rangerruck
November 9, 2007, 11:27 AM
but another moral of the story was this, if you fired from a clean dry bbl, and between each shot, fired from a clean dry bbl, and I mean dry patched out, shots stayed closest to each other from the first shot, to subsequent groups. then when cleaned and scrubbed good, and dried good, and left to rest a bit, that next first cold bbl cleaned and dried shot, was right where it was the first time around, and also closest to point of aim.

goon
November 9, 2007, 11:28 AM
I've heard the same thing but I can't actually tell you for sure.
My solution is to just let the bore dirty for those two weeks. We're using noncorrosive ammo so you don't really need to worry about corrosion in that short of a time unless you get drenched with rain or drop it in the snow or something (in which case you should definitely clean it thoroughly).

Fumbler
November 9, 2007, 11:32 AM
It is no myth.

My first shot out of a clean bore (Tikka T3 308) is usually high by 1-3 inch.
I shoot a lot for fun and clean almost every range session, but I don't clean after the range session before hunting season.
If you shoot your gun enough and clean it exactly the same every time then you'll figure out where it'll hit in a clean bore.

For most hunting it won't matter. 2" high at 100 yards should still killa a deer. But, I hate not being confident in knowing where my bullet will hit.
You never know when you'll come accress a 300 yard shot.

SlamFire1
November 9, 2007, 12:02 PM
Cleaning a worn or slightly worn barrel will make a difference in Point of Impact (POI).

I am looking at data from a 6 Oct 100 yard Highpower match. I shot my match M1a. It has a 1:10 Douglas heavyweight barrel. The barrel throats a 3 so it has at least 3000 rounds through it. For 308, an average barrel will erode one graduation on a throat erosion gage for every thousand rounds. Approximately.

I had really cleaned this barrel out. JB bore paste and Sweets till no copper came out on the patches.

My normal 100 yard standing zero with this particular lot of surplus 4895 is 12 half MOA clicks up. (I have a ½ MOA disc) Second sighting shot was so low that I clicked up to 15. By shot 3 I was up to 17 clicks, and then by shot seven or eight I had to radically start clicking down. I ended the string at 13 clicks up; I was a bit wobbly and shot a 188-4X standing. Disappointing score. For the subsequent 66 shots, the zero was stable and consistent with previous sight settings.

For years I have noticed that the first couple of 200 yards standing shots print low on a clean barrel. Might require a half MOA to raise the group, and by the time I am near shot 10, I am back to my old zero.

Unfortunately, you have to clean your barrel, because massive accumulated fouling will mess up accuracy. I know shooters who seldom clean their barrels. They have done very well. However, after talking to Frank White at Compass lake, he has a bore scope, and he claims that copper and powder get impacted in the throats of barrels, brushes and solvents will not remove it, and it has to be mechanically cleaned (JB bore paste) out. He has seen barrels that were fouled up, had poor accuracy, and after using JB, were restored to excellent accuracy. But you have to use that stuff infrequently and with delicacy because it is an abrasive. Abrasives will round your lands and make the grooves deeper. The stuff adds wear to a barrel.

I don’t use JB more often than every 300 rounds. And on this barrel, near the end of its service life, I might not bore paste for another 500 rounds. Maybe more, probably not less.

shooter_john
November 9, 2007, 12:03 PM
If you're really concerned about a cleanish bore, but not effect POI too much, maybe just run a boresnake through it a couple of times (no oil, solvent, etc). My 25-06 is a 1/2 MOA gun, but the first round from a clean bore will always be off a considerable amount. Cold bore shots from a fouled barrel are always right on. When I'm shooting for groups (which is most of shooting) I always shoot a couple of fouling shots.

jerkface11
November 9, 2007, 12:26 PM
If you have a chronograph you can see a rather significant difference in velocity from a clean barrel.

cracked butt
November 9, 2007, 12:47 PM
Heard a lil tidbit the other day and was wondering if it was true or just some fudd myth:
-Don't clean your gun after zeroing it before hunting because a clean gun will be off zero till you get a few shots down the barrel.


Its 100% true unless you are zeroing the rifle by cleaning and oiling the barrel between each shot. This is especially significant if the barrel is oiled afetr cleaning.

After you clean and oil the barrel, the first shot will almost always be several inches away from the zero on the vertical plane.

Koos Custodiet
November 9, 2007, 12:56 PM
22 rimfires definitely change POA for the first 10 or so shots. Even if you're just changing brands of ammo. Has to do with the wax lube they tell me.

But you're not hunting with a 22LR :-)

Cannonball888
November 9, 2007, 01:26 PM
When we talk about a cold bore, there are also different degrees of coldness such as hunting in freezing weather versus sighting in at the range in the fall.

Funderb
November 9, 2007, 01:33 PM
That matters in my pellet rifle.

but really, for a firearm it factors to maybe a hundredth of an inch up on the target.
nothing to care about.

351 WINCHESTER
November 9, 2007, 01:41 PM
Not a myth at all. Once your rifle is sighted in do not clean it until hunting season is over. It will change the poi.

Funderb
November 9, 2007, 01:49 PM
Anyone see here that not cleaning, just like cleaning it, will change the point of impact. If you start out with a clean barrel, after sighting it in without shooting, then take 3-5 rounds to get it in tight, not cleaning will drop the bullet, cleaning will raise the bullet. Just bring the sights up a couple clicks to compensate. If you own the rifle, and are going hunting with it, you should be comfortable enough with the gun to know the discrepancy between clean and shot barrels.

goon
November 9, 2007, 02:14 PM
I think that it tends to be kind of self limiting because not a who lot of copper can really build up in the bore.

cracked butt
November 9, 2007, 02:17 PM
If you start out with a clean barrel, after sighting it in without shooting, then take 3-5 rounds to get it in tight, not cleaning will drop the bullet, cleaning will raise the bullet. Just bring the sights up a couple clicks to compensate. If you own the rifle, and are going hunting with it, you should be comfortable enough with the gun to know the discrepancy between clean and shot barrels.


Thats all good if you are shooting an animal at the exact same range as you are sighting in. If you sight in at 100 yards, where do you compensate for a shot at 250 yards? Its likely that the poi will be outside of vitals at that distance. The only way to know would be to shoot with a cleaned bore at different ranges- most people simply don't have that much time on their hands.

Funderb
November 9, 2007, 02:22 PM
It's pretty simple math though,
the equation comes right on the box for your scope.
if you're using one.
1 moa @ 100yds = 1 inch
If you know a clean barrel jumps up 1/2 of an inch at 100 yards, then you know it will jump up 1.25 at 250.
It's just that cleaning is imperative for those who hunt with milsurp rifles, and quite a few do, even with newpro ammo rust is an issue.
Just take a little time to chart out your rifle's err on a shot log.
you'd be like a real sniper.

ExSoldier
November 9, 2007, 02:43 PM
Leave it dirty. Then it'll literally be a case of hit or myth.

Seriously, for hunting level accuracy I don't see as it will make any difference since you're not required to hit with the accuracy of a police sniper in the "no twitch" shot. I think IMHO, it's far more likely that a trigger snatch or a flinch will cause a wild shot. A good scope on a good gun, properly zeroed won't be affected to any great extent.

cracked butt
November 9, 2007, 02:50 PM
If you know a clean barrel jumps up 1/2 of an inch at 100 yards, then you know it will jump up 1.25 at 250.
It's just that cleaning is imperative for those who hunt with milsurp rifles, and quite a few do, even with newpro ammo rust is an issue.

The error is usually much more than 1/2" and isn't going to be consistant from one cleaning to the next. I've seen changes in poi over 2" before.

I've worked at deer rifle sight-in clinics for several years and have helped hundreds of hunters sight in their hundreds of rifles. The first shot in a sight-in group is discarded abotu 1/2 the time, reason being is that only about 1/2 of them cleaned the rifle since last year's deer season. The other 1/2 cleaned their rifle sometime after deer season and haven't shot it until now, 1 week before opening day. The best that you can hope for is to get their rifle sighted in and get them a bit more familiar with their rifle before they take to the woods. I have always advised them to not clean their rifle until the season is over unless it somehow gets wet or is exposed to some other corrosive environment. Having to tell them that need to correct for a first shot out of a clean barrel complicates matters too much for a person who only fires a dozen or so shots per year. Besides, after firing 7-10 shots to sight in a rifle, there isn't going to be enough fouling to diminish accuracy at all, and the firearm will not be harmed for not cleaning it for a few weeks unless they are shooting some sort of surplus garbage through it.

All of that being said, there is no advantage whatsoever to sighting in a rifle for hunting then immediately cleaning it. Its just plain sound common sense advice to not clean until the hunting season is over with barring the rifle being exposed to elements that can damage it.

Funderb
November 9, 2007, 02:54 PM
Man, I'm totally going to the range this weekend and testing this.

cracked butt
November 9, 2007, 02:56 PM
:cool:
Keep me informed with your results, I'm very interested.

Funderb
November 9, 2007, 02:59 PM
will do,
This can only really work if the gun is clamped and sandbagged though.
Gotta figure a way to do that.

SlamFire1
November 9, 2007, 04:42 PM
.....reason being is that only about 1/2 of them cleaned the rifle since last year's deer season. The other 1/2 cleaned their rifle sometime after deer season and haven't shot it until now, 1 week before opening day. The best that you can hope for is to get their rifle sighted in and get them a bit more familiar with their rifle before they take to the woods.

What a sad comment about the level of marksmanship and the average deer hunter.

Are these the guys who expect 1/2 MOA performance and shoot at everything from 25 to 1000 yards, but don't practice?!

jpwilly
November 9, 2007, 04:48 PM
The differance between clean or dirty bore will not impact your shot enough to matter. The decision you should make is whether you like your rifle clean or dirty. When I'm target shooting I always shoot a "fouler" before attempting to make little groups. When I'm done I clean my rifle and put away until next time.

sacp81170a
November 9, 2007, 05:07 PM
Are these the guys who expect 1/2 MOA performance and shoot at everything from 25 to 1000 yards, but don't practice?!

No, they're the guys who post here who can hit a gnat in the eye at 1,000 yards with anything and go out with fashion models. Some of them duct tape trauma plates to their chest and back and work as mall security. :evil:

cracked butt
November 9, 2007, 05:32 PM
What a sad comment about the level of marksmanship and the average deer hunter.


The people that I'm usually helping are those that only get their rifle out once per year, the guys who shoot alot don't go to rifle sight-in clinics.

From my own circle of family and friends, I'm probably the only person who shoots more than 20 rds per year. In fact, some of them think I have a few screws loose because I have (many) 'nonhunting' rifles and shoot thousands of rounds per year. The only other person that I know on more than a casual basis who deer hunted and shoots alot was my father, but he no longer hunts deer. I do have friends who shoot alot but don't hunt.....

tnieto2004
November 9, 2007, 05:35 PM
Myth! I have never seen any evidence to say otherwise ..

jacobhh
November 9, 2007, 05:55 PM
I believe the term "Fouling Shot" originated with black
powder muzzle loaders and is truly necessary with them.

I always shoot a fouling shot in practice and competition,
also wipe a BP gun one once damp and once dry between
each shot.

Shooting smokeless, it seems to me that barrel temp has
a greater effect but I shoot a fowler out of habit anyway,
which serves to mitigate both cold and clean.

I would never let a gun sit around dirty for any length of time
BP or smokeless.

StrikeEagle
November 9, 2007, 06:15 PM
(they even use target backers for each shot to confirm that a shot was indeed fired)

How exactly does that work? If the shots are too close together to score on the target, how does it help to put something else behind the target? Just curious. :)

sacp81170a
November 9, 2007, 06:26 PM
From http://www.nfa.ca/content/view/64/197/ :

"At the top levels, 5 round groups are usually a single ragged hole in the target. To ensure that the competitors fire 5 rounds into the target, a moving backer paper is installed behind the record target. This way it is easy for the match officials to see that all 5 rounds were fired.

"The world record for a 5 shot group at 100 yards is currently 0.052” for Heavy Varmint and 0.054” for Light Varmint." :what:

"How is it possible to fire a group measuring only 0.1 inches across with a bullet that is 0.243 inches in diameter? Group sizes are measured from center to center of the two widest bullet holes. As a result bullet size is removed from the equation and groups from different calibre rifles can be compared on equal terms."

Yes, these guys are, ahem, accurate.

R.W.Dale
November 9, 2007, 07:25 PM
I've seen that first shot from an oily bore be as much as 200 fps SLOWER than the other shots afterward. Pressure = velocity and friction = more pressure. Adding oil gives - friction so therefore you have less velocity. To top it all off less velocity usually = a HIGHER point of impact.

So I always hunt with a dirty bore.


Another good myth is the one that says even with modern ammo you HAVE to clean your guns after each shooting session. I shoot em dirty till the accuracy drops off, usually about 500 rds later. Then I give the bore a good scrubbin and it's back to shooting like new.

Jenrick
November 9, 2007, 08:35 PM
As I've a strong interest on getting on my departments tactical team and from there being a rifleman, I've done some research on the subject.

To echo what everyone else has said, a clean cold rifle shoots different then a clean warm rifle, which shots different then a dirty cold rifle, which shots different from a dirty warm rifle. The easiest way to do this of course is to shoot in all of these conditions, obviously this isn't an option for most people as they lack the time and money.

An easier and better option is to keep a rifle data book, it will allow you to track you rifles accuracy with different brands, loads, etc. As well as seeing what the weather does to you're shooting. An interesting side effect of this is that when you're making a shot at a decent range in poor weather, you can look in your book and see hard data on what's going to happen to the bullet to adjust your aim accordingly.

Anyway, if you keep a good rifle data book you'll have a good listing of cold clean, cold dirty, warm clean, and warm dirty shots. Look at the actual shots and see where the rounds land. My Rem 700P shoots about 1/8" high and 1" to the right of the rest of the group cold and clean. All following rounds group into .5" or less from there. Does this vary sometimes? Of course, as I'm not shooting from a machine rest, but I know that in almost all cases my first round shots POA, and the rest will impact just slightly low and right.

Is an inch or two an issue for deer hunting? In my personal opinion no. You shouldn't be taking a shot where that's the margin of error as a responsible hunter.

-Jenrick

fal 4 me
November 9, 2007, 08:38 PM
One of the gun rags had an article on this very topic within the past month or two. I apologize for not remembering which one, but the conclusion of the article was point of impact can change for the first few shots out of a clean barrel. The change in some was not very much, but others were off by as much as 3 inches at 100 yards. If your rifle is shooting fine, I wouldn't clean it until after the season is over.

R.W.Dale
November 9, 2007, 08:40 PM
Is an inch or two an issue for deer hunting?

An inch NO but two inches at 100 quickly puts you outside an 6" kill zone at longer ranges.

You shouldn't be taking a shot where that's the margin of error as a responsible hunter.

I think it's irresponsible NOT to account for that margin of error. Not all game is taken at 45yds with a 30-30

rangerruck
November 10, 2007, 01:24 PM
Again, everyone go and find the latest issue of "rifle' magazine. the above Jenrick dude is correct, what happens is this, even if it is clean , but oiled, the stuff in the bbl slows down the round, this leaves the bullet in the rifle longer, which allows the whip effect to throw the bullet 'up' when it exits the muzzle, which is why most first shots, out of a clean oiled, dirty cold, dirty warm, or old dirty, shots are usually high within 2 inches of point of aim. and they are also usually predictalby high, to one side or the other. The shot that was closest to point of aim, for a first shot, came from his test with both clean and dry, cold bbls. now once he got them warmed up with a couple of shots, they all dropped into their point of aims, but changed again , once he let them set, either for an hour , or a week.

cracked butt
November 10, 2007, 01:56 PM
From the OP:
Heard a lil tidbit the other day and was wondering if it was true or just some fudd myth:
-Don't clean your gun after zeroing it before hunting because a clean gun will be off zero till you get a few shots down the barrel.
So... true or false? I am going deer hunting for the first time Saturday (my excited face=) and I havn't had the chance to clean my rifle since checking zero at the range last Saturday. Clean it tommorow or not?


While keeping a log of the first shot is all nice and handy, it doesn't apply to the OPs situation. He was sighting in the rifle when shooting it, so he'll have no idea where the first shot will go with a clean oiled barrel. Since the deviation with a cold fouled bore is going to be a whole lot less than the deviation with a cold clean oiled bore, its not a good idea to clean the rifle.

Funderb
November 10, 2007, 05:08 PM
I suppose in a hunting situation this is a correct thing, not to clean.
But I am going to guess that it's more important with a scope.
am I right?

Funderb
November 19, 2007, 11:57 AM
I went down to the range and shot at 100 yards.
Honestly, there was no discrepancy in my rifles.
I shot with both an m44 with a scope, and an m91/30
with iron sights.
They held consistent groups clean and after rounds.
the difference must have been a couple centimeters if any.

Even so, the logic of this argument is erroneous.
If you sight in a rifle, then clen it, the only reason you should have such a massive jump (2"+) at 100 yards is if:
A: you have shot more than 50 rounds to sight it in
B: the bore of your rifle is not compatible with that size round
C: a combination of both.


and as a side note, D: sighting rifle in with different ammo than what you hunt with will aslo cause error on the hunt.

But really, there shouldn't be that much of a difference in modern rifles.
in black powder, yes, but the whole idea of smokeless powder is that it leaves a very small, almost immeasurable amount of residue.

Rokman
November 20, 2007, 02:51 PM
My Remington 700 .25-06 will be off as much as 3'' from a clean barrel. It then will settle in to .5-.75'' moa with a fouled barrel.

Walkalong
November 20, 2007, 03:50 PM
99%, if not 100%, of benchrest shooters shoot a fouler or two on the "sighter" portion of the target before starting a group "for record". I think the High Power guys do the same thing.

Most rifles will shoot to a different point of impact from a cold clean barrel. How much varies greaty, and the application determines how important it is, if at all.

If your hunting rifle shoots 3/4 to 1 inch different POI from a cold clean barrel vs a fouled semi warm barrel, then so what, you will still kill your deer. The important thing to know is where that first shot is going to go from your hunting rifle.

Legionnaire
November 20, 2007, 03:53 PM
IMO, Jenrick said it best. I have an accurized Remington 700 VSSF in .308 (no longer made, unfortunately) that shoots very accurately from a warm bore. First shot from a cold bore, however, is 1 MOA low and left ... every time. Discovered this by taking multiple cold bore shots over a six day training course.

Once you get your rifle zeroed at 100 and shooting consistently at that distance, every "first round" on subsequent range trips should be recorded and accumulated. That will let you know what to expect from your cold bore.

FWIW, the instructor at the course I attended advised against cleaning the barrel for the entire six days. He reported that his "duty" rifle was into the thousands of rounds without cleaning the bore. He wanted the only variable to be whether the barrel was cold or warm.

P-32
November 20, 2007, 06:27 PM
It depnds on the rifle. My Winny F/W in '06 doesn't care cold or clean until the barrel gets very warm. (5th shot with no cool down) My muzzel loader needs a fouling shot before hunting with it as it does shoot to a lot different spot when clean compaired to fouled shots.

First clean cold shot out of my issued 308 LTR is maybe 1/4" off subsequint shots. Good enough.

Markbo
November 20, 2007, 06:38 PM
You gotta love all this. "It shouldn't", "I don't see how", " I don't think so". Whatever happened to personal experience being THE gauge to go buy instead of what your imagination tells you??

Who are the most anal shooters? Benchrest competitors. You will NEVER see any competitor shoot out of a fresh, clean or oiled barrel. They are called fouling shots for a reason... to season the barrel to shoot that ammo to point of aim.

I have seen dozens of deer over my years shot poorly. Inevitably they were shot from fresh clean guns. They guys that have old nicked up, unclean barreled guns are the ones that can put the bullet where he wants.

My own personal experience is that every gun I own will shoot to a different POI from a cold, oiled barrel that from a fouled barrel. Some more than others, but every single one. One maybe an inch, another over 3". That is at 100 yards off of a bench at paper. 6" is damned small target at 200 yards when buck fever has you wobbling in an 18" circle.

Walkalong
November 20, 2007, 07:34 PM
Who are the most anal shooters? I ressemble that remark. :D

Funderb
November 21, 2007, 12:30 AM
I took the yugo mauser out to the range,
it's group clean vs. dirty is way different.
So yeah, you guys are right,
it just applies to the particular weapon.

My mosins just don't seem to care.
They are at the point where the bore is broken in but still new, so that makes sense.

Though I can't say the bullet's poi ever surprises me.
Comfort. the firearm is an extension of your body,
if you are used to it, it's all good.

Markbo
November 22, 2007, 01:24 AM
Comfort. the firearm is an extension of your body,
if you are used to it, it's all good.

And that is exactly why it is so ... suprising when something like a cold barrel flier happens... it's like your mind can't quite grasp it for a second... "the hold was good... the sight picture was good.... the trigger press was good... what the heck is wrong here???"

lencac
November 22, 2007, 01:53 AM
This much I know is true from experience. I do a lot of bench shooting. The first round from the clean barrel is known as the fouling round. It will fly somewhat differently than the rest. For hunting purposes probably not a factor. The process to sight a rifle for hunting is this. Get the firearm generally sighted in at 100 yrds. Clean it. Then get the batch or box of ammo you will use to hunt with. Take two shots. Let the firearm cool completely in as much of the same ambient condition that you are likely to see when hunting. Then take 3 more shots. This will be your hunting zero. Then take it hunting using the same batch or box of ammo.

cracked butt
November 22, 2007, 09:46 AM
I went down to the range and shot at 100 yards.
Honestly, there was no discrepancy in my rifles.
I shot with both an m44 with a scope, and an m91/30
with iron sights.
They held consistent groups clean and after rounds.
the difference must have been a couple centimeters if any.

Even so, the logic of this argument is erroneous.
If you sight in a rifle, then clen it, the only reason you should have such a massive jump (2"+) at 100 yards is if:
A: you have shot more than 50 rounds to sight it in
B: the bore of your rifle is not compatible with that size round
C: a combination of both.



Or the groove diameter on your mosins are so grossly oversized that a film of oil makes little to no difference. I own a 1/2 dozen mosins, every single one of htem has a groove diameter of 0.03-0.06" over the diameter of the bullet. None of them are worthy of being used for unting over 100 yards. My hunting rifles all have groove diameter equal to the bullet diameter- My longest shot to date on game was 410 yards, would I have taken that shot with a clean bore? NO.

Funderb
November 22, 2007, 11:11 AM
Generally, when I buy a rifle, the most important quality is round fit.
I can assure you that the barrel is well fitted to the bullet.
My m91/30 can hold a 1.5-3" pattern when being shot benchrest at 100 yards, depending on the day I'm having.
When we tested the rifles weighted, clamped and bagged, patterns dropped to 1" or fewer.
The m44 was a little bit worse, but that's to be expected.
Like I said before, I'm sure after 50 rounds there would be a big difference when cleaned, but not after four or five.
Granted, I just started looking into this, because bench rest shooting is my least favourite style.
I'd much rather lay around in the grass and shoot at cans and watermelons. At that point, who cares about a fouling shot?

lencac
November 22, 2007, 01:25 PM
This is a pic of a group I shot yesterday. It's @ 100 yrds. from the bench.
5 rds. total. This is typical. Can you guess which round is the fouling round?
When you are shooting bench rest and not only counting 10 rings but Xs also it matters. Two guys have the same score and countless times the Xs break the tie.

cracked butt
November 23, 2007, 05:35 AM
Generally, when I buy a rifle, the most important quality is round fit.
I can assure you that the barrel is well fitted to the bullet.

Have you actually slugged the barrels of your rifles?

The bigger deviation with the first shot out of your Yugo mauser vs a mosin nagant is probably because the Yugo mauser's grooves are much closer to the bullet diameter.

FWIW, my Yugo mauser is the only mauser I have that has a groove diameter close to 0.323" (It slugs at 0.3235") The rest vary from .324" to .326".

Ever watch you windshield wipers while its raining? The water piles up in front of the wiper due to the tight fit of the rubber to the glass. The same happens in a rifle barrel with oil when a bullet travels down it- the oil piles up in front of the bullet, slowing it down, also if too much oil is in the bore, the barrle will be damaged. Military rifle grooves are purposely oversized to prevent damage to the barrel if debris/excess oil/water gets into the bore. The only rare exception is the K-31 barrels which are matched very carefully to the bullets used, even 1903 springfields are typically grooved 0.002"+ and Swede mausers are 0.003-0.004" over bullet diameter.

A heavy barreled varmint or benchrest rifle which has very little vibration to it will throw the first shot, while something like a winchester model 70 hunting rifle with a thin whippy barrel or a remington 7400 which has even more harmonic issues will throw the first shot much further typically.

P-32
November 23, 2007, 06:37 AM
A heavy barreled varmint or benchrest rifle which has very little vibration to it will throw the first shot, while something like a winchester model 70 hunting rifle with a thin whippy barrel or a remington 7400 which has even more harmonic issues will throw the first shot much further typically.

It depends on the rifle.....My thin wimpy Mdl 70 F/W '06 barrel will put the first 4 shots sub MOA from a cold clean barrel. It's the 5th one that flys out to make the group slightly over MOA. No cool down between shots. Done this time and time again. I use a spotting scope (821 Kowa) to check the target. When hunting I hardly ever get past shot # 1 taking neck shots. Last deer I shot was a little further out than I like so I placed 1 round in the lung and heart area behind the left front shoulder. It tipped over DRT after walking about 20 feet.

Win75
November 23, 2007, 07:45 AM
I always check my zero on my hunting rifles about a week before season. I do not clean the bores until after I am through deer hunting. My rifles will change POI with the first shot out of a clean barrel.

I have a blackpowder rifle (CVA Optima Pro) that will shoot 3 inches higher with a fouled barrel than with a clean barrel.

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