6.5 Creedmoor


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GunTech
November 9, 2007, 09:41 AM
Hornaday has added a new round that looks like halfway between 260 and 6.5x47 Lapua. Is 6.5 gaining critical mass?

http://www.hornady.com/story.php?s=763

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Jim Watson
November 9, 2007, 09:58 AM
It looks like new cartridges are the gimmick of the year.
6.5 Creedmoor, .30 and .338 Ruger from Hornady; .327 Magnum from Federal. Who knows what more they will come up with in time to show off at SHOT.

I don't see the 6.5 Creedmoor breaking out in match rifles. One guy said "Hey, if it is good quality, it looks like it would be convenient to make 6XC out of."

As to 6.5 in general, I think I have heard of more 6x6.5x47 rifles than original 6.5x47.

browningguy
November 9, 2007, 10:13 AM
Yep, the 6mm and 6.5's are winning all the long range matches. High BC bullets with low recoil make them very easy to shoot.

GunTech
November 9, 2007, 05:02 PM
I did a preliminary try at case dimensions based on what I could find and starting with the 260 Remington. Anyone interested in the QuickDesign file PM me.

http://guntech.com/ammo/6.5creedmoor.jpg

H4350 looks to give the best velioty in QL


Cartridge : 6.5 Creedmoor
Bullet : .264, 123, Lapua Scenar GB489
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 2.820 inch or 71.63 mm
Barrel Length : 24.0 inch or 610.0 mm
Powder : Hodgdon H4350

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 1.124% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step Fill. Charge Vel. Energy Pmax Pmuz Prop.Burnt B_Time
% % Grains fps ft.lbs psi psi % ms

-11.2 88 39.50 2591 1834 41000 8651 97.1 1.388
-10.1 89 40.00 2623 1879 42547 8747 97.5 1.365
-09.0 90 40.50 2654 1924 44154 8840 97.9 1.342
-07.9 91 41.00 2686 1970 45826 8927 98.3 1.320
-06.7 92 41.50 2717 2016 47562 9010 98.6 1.298
-05.6 94 42.00 2748 2062 49369 9087 98.9 1.277
-04.5 95 42.50 2779 2109 51248 9159 99.2 1.256 ! Near Maximum !
-03.4 96 43.00 2810 2156 53198 9226 99.4 1.236 ! Near Maximum !
-02.2 97 43.50 2840 2203 55235 9287 99.6 1.216 ! Near Maximum !
-01.1 98 44.00 2871 2251 57351 9343 99.7 1.196 ! Near Maximum !
+00.0 99 44.50 2901 2299 59557 9392 99.9 1.177 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+01.1 100 45.00 2932 2347 61851 9436 99.9 1.158 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+02.2 101 45.50 2962 2395 64242 9474 100.0 1.140 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+03.4 102 46.00 2991 2444 66736 9506 100.0 1.122 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+04.5 104 46.50 3021 2493 69322 9535 100.0 1.104 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+05.6 105 47.00 3051 2542 72006 9564 100.0 1.086 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba 99 44.50 3014 2481 71573 9021 100.0 1.095 !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba 99 44.50 2736 2045 48445 9399 96.1 1.285

Jim Watson
November 9, 2007, 05:05 PM
Hmm. That says you would be at a compressed load and excess pressure to reach advertised velocity, with H4350, right?

GunTech
November 9, 2007, 05:09 PM
QuickLoad can run a little slow velocity wise, and this was estimated from a 24 inch barrel. There's no substitue for RL testing, but in my experience, the marketing department tends to be optimistic.

Glock Glockler
November 9, 2007, 05:21 PM
What will it do that a .260 Remington won't? I'm trying to see the point of designing the new round.

Howard Roark
November 9, 2007, 06:05 PM
What will it do that a .260 Remington won't?

It will give Demille a proprietary cartridge made by Hornady for the T2K. This is what he wants. A caliber loaded to "match" quality that can be had from a mainstream big name company that will keeep up with the 6XC.

Now one can buy a T2K in 6.5 Creedmoor and order ammo from anyone that stocks Hornady ammo.

I've known about this for 6 months. I also knew the day before that the price of a T2K would go up 1K. I didn't act. Should have. I know the guy that bought all the remaining stock (4) for resale. There is also a company that is in the process of making a T2K knockoff. And that is all I have to say about that.

Howard

GunTech
November 9, 2007, 07:40 PM
The 6.5 Creedmore apparently serves the same purpose the 6.5x47 Lapua does. It allow the loading of longer, high BC bullets in short actions without intruding into the powder space. 260 is fine for 120 and 130gn hunting bullets, but if you load something like a 142SMK or 144 Lapaua Scenar, it can get a bit tight.

mightyike
November 9, 2007, 08:56 PM
I love 6.5's. Miss my old pre-64 264....but this 6.5 looks nice.... like a
P.O. Ackley improved....I always thought the 6.8 SPC (a 25 Remington up to 270) should either be 6mm or 6.5mm....

I did pick up a couple of 264's to begin again.....

140 grains at 2800 is very nice....

USSR
November 9, 2007, 09:23 PM
It's DOA as a LR cartridge for a couple of reasons:

1. It has even less performance than a .260 Rem.

2. No quality brass (Lapua) available for it.

Don

George Hill
November 9, 2007, 09:48 PM
That looks very good. How does that stack up to the 7MM-08?

GunTech
November 9, 2007, 09:56 PM
7mm-08 has the same problems as 260 - no room for long, high BC bullets. For a hunting catridge, 260 would be a better pick than 6.5 Creedmore, and 7mm-08 has a small edge in energy unless you shoot the same weight in both guns, in which case, the 6.5 will generally have a BC advantage.

George Hill
November 9, 2007, 10:58 PM
I'm thinking of a dedicated long range Speed Goat gun. Something specific for Antelope, Kudu and other such critters. I was thinking 7mm-08, but this sounds interesting.

Zak Smith
November 9, 2007, 11:12 PM
I have a 6.5CM T2K barrel and some ammo. I'll be testing it, and comparing it to both 260REM and 6.5x47 here in about a week.

The idea behind the 6.5CM is to be a viable long-range cartridge with components and the factory load recipe readily available, at lower peak pressure than 6XC.

I don't think the 6.5CM will be "DOA". 260 Rem certainly doesn't have great yet affordable brass available (if you can call Lapua "affordable"-- the Nosler brass is cripplingly expensive). On the contrary, I see it as a viable alternative to the 260, with a potentially better case design and brass. The 6.5x47, 6.5CM, and 260REM all perform within spitting distance of each other, however, the 6.5x47 loads need to run at considerably higher pressure to match 260REM ballistics.

GunTech,
7mm-08 has the same problems as 260 - no room for long, high BC bullets.
All us .260 shooters don't seem to be having problems shooting the 139's - 142's at 2.800. Also note that Lapua factory 338LM is seated WAY in there. It works fine. This "problem" is WAY overstated. Also note that all those 68-77gr 223 loads work the same way.

GunTech
November 9, 2007, 11:53 PM
Agree that the problem is overstated, but it's there. My 260 is a falling block, so overall length is not an issue.

I looked at Nosler brass, but at $1.50 each, I am not going there.

Zak Smith
November 9, 2007, 11:56 PM
If my 260 shoots about quarter MOA with reloaded brass, shooting the 139's seated to 2.820, how would I detect this "problem"?

USSR
November 10, 2007, 09:42 AM
The 6.5x47, 6.5CM, and 260REM all perform within spitting distance of each other...

And, therein lies the problem and the reason that it's going nowhere. It's the solution to a problem that doesn't exist.

Don

brian923
November 10, 2007, 11:01 AM
seems like the ole' 6.5mm/08 ackley improved. just standardized and givin a cooler name. one thing though, is that case forming and fireforming is not an issue due to factory ammo. but i dont know of anyone that goes to the store before a match to pick out his ammo.:evil:

GunTech
November 10, 2007, 01:11 PM
Zak, have you tried 142, 144 and 155? Just curious. I notice a difference between 6.5x47 and 260, but now I'm thinking it's crappy Remington bras versus Lapua.

BAT1
November 10, 2007, 03:01 PM
Would this round fit the 6.5 Grendel?

GunTech
November 10, 2007, 03:43 PM
Not even close. It's a 0.473 case head, same as 30-06, 308, 243 etc. Gredel uses the 7.62x39mm 0.450 case head.

dwl
November 10, 2007, 05:34 PM
What the 6.5 Creedmoor looks like is a very nice highpower or silhouette cartridge; sufficient power, minimum recoil. It's remarkably close dimensionally to a 6.5X250, aka 260 Bobcat, though Hornady is claiming 10 grains more powder and 200 fps more velocity. Question is, what powder is Hornady using and can we get it?

The 6.5 Creedmoor isn't a 260 Remington, but that IS the point!

Ol` Joe
November 10, 2007, 05:46 PM
The 6.5 Creedmoor isn't a 260 Remington, but that IS the point!

Nope it`s not!
To me it appears to be a shortened 260, about 0.10" in body. Sorta like the 45 acp and 45 GAP. Notice to the velocities listed for it are from 28" barrels, not 24". Aaaaaaand you still need a action capable of holding full 2.820" cartridges, the same lenght as the 260. Hmmm, still can`t see what it does that`s really new.

Zak Smith
November 10, 2007, 07:25 PM
H4350. -- Same powder I use in 260REM.

6.5CM's taper is less than 260REM, so the case capacities are going to be almost identical.

260's problem is that there's no good but halfway affordable brass.

Brian,

It's not the same as 6.5-08AI, which has a case capacity closer to 6.5-284 or 6.5x55. 6.5CM's body is shorter than 6.5-08AI.

Zak Smith
November 10, 2007, 07:27 PM
GunTech,

I shoot the 139 Scenar in 260REM, but have also used the 140gr Berger VLDs. Other guys locally shoot the 142 SMK with similar results.

Zak Smith
November 10, 2007, 07:31 PM
http://demigodllc.com/~zak/DigiCam/6.5x47Lapua/smaller/D462_2064_img.jpg (http://demigodllc.com/~zak/DigiCam/6.5x47Lapua/?small=D462_2064_img.jpg)
............... Larger version of above photo. (http://demigodllc.com/~zak/DigiCam/6.5x47Lapua/?small=D462_2064_img.jpg)

308, 260REM, 6.4CM, 6.5x47 Lapua.

Although with the photo's perspective, it looks like 6.5CM and 6.5x47 are the same length to the shoulder, the 6.5x47 is actually about a tenth of an inch shorter.

pdd614
November 10, 2007, 07:57 PM
zak,
i plan on buying a trg22 within the next 6 months, and then having a 6.5 barrel put on. with a coal of 3 inches for the trg mags. which caliber would you choose?

Zak Smith
November 10, 2007, 08:06 PM
Hi,

I'll be facing this question when my 260REM barrel is shot out sometime next year, too. I won't have 6.5CM results for a few weeks, but at this point it looks promising.

With 6.5CM out of the equation, I'd give the nod to the 260REM in the TRG-22 for reasons similar to why I prefer 260REM over the 6.5x47 in my AI-AW.

-z

Grendelizer
November 11, 2007, 03:35 AM
Zak, I remember when the 6.5x47 came out, you were going to test it. Sounds like you decided to stick with 260REM. Reasoning?

Also, judging from the photo, the extractor groove of the 6.5CM seems needlessly large, and, to my mind, would impinge on interior volume. Any guesses why they felt the need to change the extractor area dimensions from the tried and true .308/.260 case?

John

Zak Smith
November 11, 2007, 09:18 AM
Zak, I remember when the 6.5x47 came out, you were going to test it. Sounds like you decided to stick with 260REM. Reasoning?
I did- I've been shooting the 6.5x47 in an AI-AW for about 6 months. In the AI-AW, I'll stick to the 260. In an action where I can control the firing pin hole and FP protrusion, I'd probably go with the 6.5x47 given those two choices only. To match or beat 260 ballistics, the 6.5x47 has to be run at higher pressure because it hads smaller volume but a much better case. I don't want to modify an AI bolt face and firing pin.

Ignore the extractor groove differences. Production brass is supposed to be identical to 308.

-z

brasskeeper
November 11, 2007, 10:23 PM
I read somewhere that the 6.5cm is on a 30TC case

atek3
December 6, 2007, 03:29 PM
given the higher pressure for equal velocity, why would you favor 6.5x47L, just the better brass?

atek3

Zak Smith
December 6, 2007, 03:54 PM
260 vs. 6.5x47, the Lapua has the better brass. I haven't tried the almost $1/per Nosler 260 brass yet though.

Will Fennell
December 6, 2007, 04:36 PM
I've gotten in 150 pcs of the Nosler 260 Rem Brass......but haven't loaded with it yet. It does looks great though...."prettiest brass" I've seen....including Lapua. I paid about $40 per 50pc box. After messing with Rem. Brass, it was worth it;)

Grendelizer
December 6, 2007, 04:39 PM
Anyone know who makes this Nosler brass? Is it one of the "quality" makers? Or is it a "standard" maker who is just "trying harder"?

John

skinewmexico
December 6, 2007, 05:39 PM
My 6.5X47 brass wasn't exactly cheap. I almost hate to send one off to be modified to work with my Stoney Point gauge..........

Will Fennell
December 8, 2007, 01:37 PM
Zak,
In the 260 Rem., are you seating those loooong bullets to fit and feed in you magazine, or are you seating long and single loading? I'm thinking you are feeding thru the mag, if so, how long will that AI let you go with your COAL?

This SAKO Varmit I have will let me go out quite a bit further than nominal 2.8".

Zak Smith
December 8, 2007, 08:59 PM
I load my 260 rounds to approx 2.820" - which is probably within 0.020" of the lands (haven't measured lately). The AI-AW magazines will take rounds out to 3.00". The AICS (Rem700/AICS) will accept to 2.850".

If I seated to close to 3.000", I could probably get some more velocity using H4831SC instead of H4350, but I'd have to get the throat cut out further.

stubbicatt
December 9, 2007, 10:16 AM
I read in one of the newstand magazines that the case head diameter is .460" or something like that. I wondered why?

Here I read it is a regular .473"

Which is it to be?

Zak Smith
December 9, 2007, 12:50 PM
The case head is the same size as 308

USSR
December 9, 2007, 04:16 PM
If I seated to close to 3.000", I could probably get some more velocity using H4831SC instead of H4350...

Zak,

Nope. I have tried H4831SC in both 6.5x55 w/142SMK's and .30-06 w/190SMK's, and you simply cannot get any velocity out of this powder. It runs at a good 125 - 150fps slower than a similar load using RL22. I am presently using VV N160 which does an excellent job in the Swede, and I have no reason to doubt it would excel in the .260Rem as well. And, of course, there's always RL22, which will probably give you the most velocity. Needless to say, H4831SC has been a big disappointment to me.

Don

Zak Smith
December 9, 2007, 04:28 PM
Two friends of mine shoot H4831SC in 260 and 260AI, with the 142's at 2850-2875 and 2920-2950 fps respectively. In 260, I hit pressure limits with H4350 before I get any powder compression. With H4831SC, I get quite a bit of powder "crunching" when seating the bullet before I hit pressure problems.

I use H4831SC in 338LM and it punts the 250gr Scenars at 3000fps...

-z

Will Fennell
December 10, 2007, 11:02 AM
I shot my first groups with the 260 Nosler Brass this weekend. This stuff is great. Already trimmed, deburred, and sorted. With one load....140 Nosler Competition bullet and H4350.....switching from Rem Brass to Nosler cut groups from .9" down to .385".

Admittedly, with the Rem brass, all I did was trim and deburr. But I thought that was a good comparision.....Rem to the Nosler stuff.

Zak Smith
December 10, 2007, 12:46 PM
Great. I've got 50 pcs inbound to do the same test.

Zak Smith
January 16, 2008, 03:58 AM
Just finished this...

http://demigodllc.com/photo/6.5x47Lapua/icon/D101_6015_img.jpg
article | 6.5mm Shootout: .260 Remington vs. 6.5x47 Lapua vs. 6.5 Creedmoor http://demigodllc.com/icon/extwh3.png (http://demigodllc.com/articles/6.5-shootout-260-6.5x47-6.5-creedmoor)

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