Pistol Caliber Rifle


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glassman
November 9, 2007, 06:40 PM
I've been thinking about buying my first rifle/carbine for a while now and have been looking into a pistol caliber. I do all of my shooting at an indoor range and don't need this rifle for home defense. Around here, a box of .223 ammo is about $11 for 20 rounds while a box of 50 rounds in 9mm is the same price.
I've shot the CX4 Storm but didn't like it much. I've also looked into the bushmaster carbon 15 but haven't shot it. Anyone have the bushy that can give me the pros and cons? Should I be looking elsewhere?

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grimjaw
November 9, 2007, 06:56 PM
If you do a search for "pistol caliber carbine" you should turn up a ton of threads on THR alone. This topic has been covered ad nauseum.

My suggestion is to decide on a caliber and/or an operating system (semi, lever, etc) and go from there.

jm

TheGunGuru
November 9, 2007, 06:57 PM
Buy the bushmaster and use wolf/surplus ammo...you can get 10 rounds for 5 bucks...not as cheap as pistol ammo but it will be more accurate at the range. I don't have the carbon 15 but I do have the xm15 a2 and I love it. Even with the 16 inch barrel and wolf ammo i can shoot a quarter at 100 yards with relative ease so you can show off to your buddies at the range...haha.

Wolfgang2000
November 9, 2007, 07:08 PM
Pistol caliber carbines are fun to shoot and have a niche in an urban environment. But you have to remember that it still just a pistol round. I have a marlin camp in 9mm, a marlin 1894 357, 22 Lr and 22 mag lever actions. I've had 44 mag carbines and a Olympic AR in 40 S&W. My wife loves the camp 9mm, and 357. I think they are really fun guns to shoot. The 44 mag recoil was a little stiff, and not near as fun as the 357, BUT if you need a serious round the 44 is it.

The Olympic AR in 40 really impressed me. The only problem was the magazines. They were using Uzi 41 AE mags. It wasn't working well, but that was in the 90's. I hope they have fixed it by now. What they did was take a 10 1/2" bbl then add a tube with break cuts in the end to make it legal. It was very accurate. I could shoot hostage shots off hand at 80 yards, with iron sights.

The thing against pistol cartridge carbines is the size of the weapon. They are the same size as full powered rifles. But if you just want a pistol caliber carbine get one, they are fun to shoot.

marshall3
November 9, 2007, 07:27 PM
HiPoint Carbine 995 (9mm) --- only about $200 brand new, and a lifetime warranty. The reviews all say it is a good firearm. You can get one in 40SW, too.

32 Magnum
November 9, 2007, 07:53 PM
These are an excellent concept for Home Defense. They are not just a pistol cartridge. You can expect at least a 30% increase in performance with the 18" barrel and the cross sectional density (diameter to weight ratio) of pistol projectiles is greater than .223 and .30 rifle projectiles (they punch a bigger hole). Any body who thinks that a handgun is adequate for home defense use, can't possibly not think that a pistol caliber carbine would be less adequate. They are relatively short, light and quick handling, not like a full size rifle. At ranges out to 75 yards 9mm, .40 and .45 cal. carbines are very effective and sufficiently accurate for fun and for protection. Don't think so? Take a look at the effectiveness of the M1927 Thompson. I have Marlin Camps in 9mm and .45 ACP, a IMI Timber Wolf in .357 mag/ .38 SPL and a Reising Model 60 in .45 ACP - all four are remarkably accurate and I would not hesitate to use any one of those for defensive purposes and I'm sure the accuracy at house ranges and at 10"x12" target zones would be more than adequate - added benefit, reduced recoil, better control and less chance of pass through. Besides all that, they are tremendous fun at the range and fairly cheap to feed.

Ratshooter
November 9, 2007, 08:01 PM
Here Here, Three cheers for 32 magnum. I couldn't have said it better myself.

Gustav
November 9, 2007, 10:54 PM
For some good old fashion fun a lever action Marlin 1894 Winchester 1894 Trapper or Puma 1892 in .357 or .44 is hard to beat.

The .357 can use .38 special ammunition as well as .357 Magnum

The .44 can use the .44 special for plinking and full house .44 magnum loads for allot of things should you later decide to do so.

Both rounds out of a carbine length barrel pick up extra velocity and with the added weight and length of a rifle barrel they are allot easier to shoot and handle.

George Hill
November 9, 2007, 11:01 PM
Hornady just announced their LEVERevolution in .357 Mag and .44 Mag. That gives a huge advantage over regular pistol loads in your Marlin 1894's.

Grandpa Shooter
November 10, 2007, 12:36 AM
Having used pistol caliber carbines in the past I can attest to their utility. They are accurate, powerful enough for close range varmint control, and far easier your wallet than a rifle caliber. Get any of them and give it a chance. You'll have a ball!

GigaBuist
November 10, 2007, 12:52 AM
Hornady just announced their LEVERevolution in .357 Mag and .44 Mag.
That's awesome to hear. My desire to own a .30-30 just dropped to zero as I've already got a Marlin 1894C in 357.

Besides all that, they are tremendous fun at the range and fairly cheap to feed.
This is very important. You should train with your HD weapon on a regular basis and pistol caliber carbines are a great amount of fun That fun, and cheap fun at that, leads to more practice time with the weapon which is the primary reason I bobble between my Marlin 1894C and Rm. 870 for home defense purposes. I have plenty of choices but these two guns get more range time than anything else so they get the HD role.

Crunker1337
November 10, 2007, 12:39 PM
How about an Uzi or an HK clone?

mb419
November 10, 2007, 12:45 PM
Look at the Kel Tec Sub2000 in .40. I have one that takes the glock mags, and it sure is fun. At 25 yards, it's just one ragged hole. Check out the Kel Tec Owners Group site and go to the sub2000 subforum. Lots of pics of what others have done to their rifles.

LaEscopeta
November 10, 2007, 12:55 PM
You can expect at least a 30% increase in performance with the 18" barrel...I believe this depends on the round. Some 9mm and .38 Special rounds have almost no increase in performance from a carbine barrel, especially rounds with light bullets and fast powder. .44 Magnum will generally give the biggest increases, sometimes doubling muzzle energy. .357 Magnum are a step behind in increases, and .45 ACP a step behind the .357s.

Hornady just announced their LEVERevolution in .357 Mag...YEEE-HAA!!!!!

hatchetbearer
November 10, 2007, 02:39 PM
if you get one, only get a Hi-point carbine in 9mm and a brand spankin' new one at that. the design team for this weapon takes feedback from LEO's and have crafted it into a fine weapon, the .40S&W still has some gremlins that need to be worked out. you would do fine with a 9mm version less than two years old but with them running $180 used and $200 new no reason to buy one without that new gun smell...

RockyMtnTactical
November 10, 2007, 02:49 PM
I'd look at the RRA 9mm.

Clipper
November 10, 2007, 02:59 PM
The Hi-Point is great. The ATI stock is sexy and a great replacement for the butt-ugly factory stock, and the recoil is so light you can use cheap eBay airsoft or paintball gun accessories like tac bags, reflex sights, lasers and tac lights without beating them to death, and still not have $300.00 tied up in it, it's accurate as any 9mm carbine, and will digest anything in 9mm with dead-nuts reliability.

Shadan7
November 10, 2007, 06:54 PM
...but say that 9mm is a heck of a lot cheaper to shoot than .40. That little Kel-Tec carbine is just a lot of fun to shoot, and folds in half for convenient storage! Where else can you get a long gun that'll fit into a pizza box ... for about $300, new? :evil:

duncan
November 10, 2007, 07:59 PM
Hi Points are great if you can't afford a nice pistol caliber AR-15.

Just like everything else, you get what you pay for.

Gey an Oly Arms or RRA AR-15. Then you can dress it up with an EOTech or Aimpoint for some serious work.

I have NEVER seen anything but AR-15s and riot shotguns in a police cruiser.

PLEAAAZZZZZ.

I see some guys at my range with their Hi Points:

http://www.roflwigger.com/images/wigger/stupid_wigger_13.jpg

Don't be that guy!

:neener:

duncan
November 10, 2007, 08:04 PM
Now the Kel Tec pistol carbines are also nice. Especially the older all metal carbines. They even take Glock mags!!!!

The Marlin Camp carbines are nice in a hunting kind of way.

The HK USC is nice if you like 45 ACP too.

And the 44mag and 357 mag carbies by Marlin and Puma are great from a Wild Wild West CAS feel.

But leave some of the others alone. Please.

MMcfpd
November 10, 2007, 08:06 PM
I have four pistol caliber carbines and if Hi-Point ever comes out with their long-promised .45 ACP carbine I'll be giving it a look. But my hands down favorite is the .45 ACP on the AR-15 platform:
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s95/MMcfpd/BAZ45_Nov_07.jpg

ETA - The .45 AR smokes my HK USC.

ETA II - Check out CMMG's Bargain Bin (http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?shop=1&cat=33&) for .45 ACP ARs for $650. I'd pick one up myself if I didn't already have a couple of .45 ARs.

Zach S
November 10, 2007, 08:50 PM
Ah, the BAZ45 lower. I thought about getting one but wound up with the CNC/Khalan AR45 instead. Getting money together to get my upper built has been a problem though...

Anyway, if the AR bug is nibblin at ya, get an RRA in 9mm. I'm not to crazy about the OLY .45s, mainly due to the 16 round UZI mags, their expense, and rarity. I dont know what the BAZ45 lower costs, but I do know the AR45 isn't cheap. Not to mention the price differece in 9mm and .45 ammo.

Clipper
November 10, 2007, 08:55 PM
Mounted my latest accesory to my Hi-Point today. I buy the cheapest eBay crap I can get, because the pretty nonexistent recoil doesn't destroy paintball stuff...

dispatch55126
November 10, 2007, 09:00 PM
I looked at a few high point 9mm and it looks like the receiver is painted? Its still a toss up but I do find it interesting.

Clipper
November 10, 2007, 10:43 PM
Yup, they're painted...Makes upkeep pretty easy...

dispatch55126
November 10, 2007, 10:45 PM
The one I was looking at already had spot rust. It also seemed like the bolt was "out of spec". It didn't feel like it came back fully.

I would have still bought it but they were only going to give me $140 for my 22/45.:(

MMcfpd
November 11, 2007, 09:15 AM
Ah, the BAZ45 lower. I thought about getting one but wound up with the CNC/Khalan AR45 instead.
...
I dont know what the BAZ45 lower costs, but I do know the AR45 isn't cheap.

I pursued the CNC option, right up the Ameetec blind alley. As it stands, I'm glad I was playing both options. The BAZ45, stripped with one mag and the requisite mag catch, was $350 which I believe is comparable to the CNC/Khalan AR45. Workmanship is excellent. The grease gun mags require a mag catch cut:
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s95/MMcfpd/BAZ45_mag.jpg
You can use an Oly .45 ACP upper with a standard AR-15 lower with Uzi mags modified with a mag block welded on (modified 16 round Uzi mag on the left, stock on the right):
http://i150.photobucket.com/albums/s95/MMcfpd/uzi_mags.jpg

They work well and that would be the simplest way to go if Uzi mags weren't so scarce and expensive.

Trumac
November 11, 2007, 11:17 AM
Duncan, you said, "I have NEVER seen anything but AR-15s and riot shotguns in a police cruiser." The Albany Police Department just bought a bunch of 40 S&W Beretta CX4s for their cruisers. Just because you have never seen something don't assume that it doesn't happen.

Zach S
November 11, 2007, 04:08 PM
I pursued the CNC option, right up the Ameetec blind alley. As it stands, I'm glad I was playing both options. The BAZ45, stripped with one mag and the requisite mag catch, was $350 which I believe is comparable to the CNC/Khalan AR45.
Thankfully I didnt go up the Ameetec alley, I almost did though.

I've got around $460 in my AR45 lower, anodized with the LPK installed.

Just the 10% lower from Justin was around $300. I know that's expensive, but billet anything aint cheap.

Rifleman 173
December 27, 2007, 05:42 AM
Olympic Arms is making some AR-15 type rifles/carbines that use Glock magazines and pistol caliber ammo. I think they're the K40-GL and the K9-GL models. Something to think about.

Moonclip
December 27, 2007, 06:19 AM
The ability to use them in an indoor range is a major factor in me buying them. They also tend to be accurate. One of the most accurate firearms I've owned was a Marlin camp carbine in .45acp. Still have a Rossi .44mag mod 92, a Winchester 94 in .357mag, a Marlin Camp carbine in 9mm and a Ruger PC4 in .40S&W. All good guns.

tinygnat219
December 27, 2007, 08:18 AM
Duncan,

Hi Points are great if you can't afford a nice pistol caliber AR-15.
Hi-Point carbines work fine, and I will even let you shoot mine while you are saving up that 800-1000 for an AR pistol caliber Carbine.

Just like everything else, you get what you pay for.
Higher price doesn't mean higher quality. Or else Glocks would be considered junk next to pistols like the STIs and other customized 1911s out there.

Gey an Oly Arms or RRA AR-15. Then you can dress it up with an EOTech or Aimpoint for some serious work.
The ATI stock allows for this as well.

I have NEVER seen anything but AR-15s and riot shotguns in a police cruiser.
The only one I can think of off the top of my head is the Cincinatti Police Department. There are bound to be others.

Long Story Short, don't disparage something because it's inexpensive, has a nice warranty, and can potentially outshoot your AR Carbine. :neener:

Marlin 45 carbine
December 27, 2007, 08:29 AM
the Marlin Camp 9mm uses S&W 5900 series mags. I have a 30 rounder for mine, feeds anything well. also have the Camp .45 it uses 1911-type mags. I have mine loaded with 10-rounder Metalform and Black Talon propped in near corner by bedside (Makarov velcored to bedpost). they are good accurate carbines. more effective than when fired from pistol judging by the impact on water-filled plastic mugs. purists will likely take issue that I use hollow-point hot loads but I installed heavy recoil springs, they are straight blow-back designs.

TIMC
December 27, 2007, 09:51 AM
I just picked this one up a short time ago, fun little gun and very accurate!
Mech Tech Systems carbine with glock 17 lower.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v369/timc/mechtechcarbine-2.jpg?t=1198766644

Roswell 1847
December 27, 2007, 01:04 PM
The Carbine I mentioned on another thread
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=326391
http://hillbilly.diinoweb.com/files/bell%20carbine%202.jpg

Might be a good system for pistol caliber carbines.
The barrel is pushed forward by gas pressure and the standing breech extracts and ejects the empties , then the barrel slides back picking up the next round and presenting it to the firing mechanism.

In this system no long heavy breechbolt is needed and no long rearward travel of a bolt. The weight of the barrel is put to good use in offsetting the chamber pressure.
I don't know if the Bell was self cocking, but such a system would be well suited to DAO operation, making it very safe and very difficult to convert to full auto. A light short double action trigger pull would be easy since there would be no linkages or cylinder to turn.

I'd be nice to see someone develop this old design further.

ArmedBear
December 27, 2007, 01:59 PM
I wouldn't sell a 22/45, especially for $140. I'd rather have the original version than the new one, even at the same price. From what I hear, the new ones are harder to clean/reassemble, and perhaps less reliable. I love my 22/45.

And I'm no blind Ruger advocate; I think the 10/22 in stock form is an overpriced POS and I sold mine. But my original 22/45 target model is one of the last guns I'd part with.

Shawnee
December 27, 2007, 02:10 PM
The Ruger 96/44 is worth serious consideration too. :cool:

Avenger29
December 27, 2007, 04:44 PM
I just picked up a Marlin Camp 9 carbine at a gunshow a couple of weeks ago for $285 from a private seller. A great, reliable gun w/o paperwork. Uses S&W 9mm mags- which I need to pick some up...

I'd like to put a set of XS Ghost rings on it, if I can. The top reciever holes are the same as the 336 series, and when my XS set comes in for my 336, I am going to see how it works.

All I need now is extra mags, a new bolt buffer from Blackjack, maybe some new Wolff springs, a mag loader, sling, and stock carrier for extra mags. I might even put a reddot on it...I do have a Weaver mount...

griffudd
December 9, 2009, 03:59 AM
What's the disadvantage of pistol caliber rifles over rifle caliber rifles? How much difference does pistol caliber make vs. rifle caliber?

McCall911
December 9, 2009, 06:17 AM
I think it's safe to say that pistol calibers are somewhat underpowered, even in long guns, compared to rifle calibers. They also lack the velocity for range, when this might be a consideration to the shooter.
Despite this, a pistol caliber rifle might be all that a particular shooter needs or wants. A .44 Magnum in a Marlin was all that I needed or wanted at the time. I didn't need range and I liked the capabilities of the .44 Mag, but I couldn't shoot it well in a handgun because of flinching. The Marlin Model 94 carbine solved that problem for me.

Col. Plink
December 9, 2009, 10:42 AM
The 40 I have is blued

Zach S
December 9, 2009, 11:50 AM
I never really did like the underpowered argument. IMO, a JHP fired out of my AR15 is going to be more effective than one from my Glock 19, which I find adequate for defense.

However, having said that, I'd prefer my 5.56 AR over my 9mm AR in most cases.

About the only real advantages that a given PCC has over its rifle caliber brother is cheaper ammo, less noise, and being allowed at more indoor ranges.

There may be a few I'm forgetting, I'm sure someone will mention them.

edit:

Since this thread is two years old, I figured I'd post an update on my AR45:

Still incomplete. I do have quite a few magazines and an M4 stock for it, however still no upper. My bank account recovered from my marriage just in time for Christmas... Its near the top of my list of things to get after the first of the year.

briansmithwins
December 9, 2009, 12:47 PM
Let's not get carried away. Is a pistol caliber better than a pointy stick? Yes.

Does any reasonable pistol caliber begin to compare to even .233 Remington? No.

I like my Uzi bit I don't pretend that's is anywhere as effective as the AR or AK. It's fun but it's the last longarm I would grab in a fight. Better than a pistol? Yes Great for training? Yes. Substitute for a rifle? No.

I've been using the Uzi at our local rifle match. I can clean up on close range targets and even get hits out to 200 yards. It's fun but it ain't a rifle.

As far as pistol caliber AR carbines go, quite a lot of the local guys have them. The most reliable ones that I've seen ar the Olympic Arms weapons that take the Glock mags. Seems like a lot of the other ones have feeding, cycling, and extraction problems. BSW


http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/briansmithwins/IMG_1493.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/briansmithwins/IMG_1491.jpg

At a local match.
http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/briansmithwins/IMG_1500.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/briansmithwins/IMG_5951Medium.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y3/briansmithwins/IMG_5966Medium.jpg

duncan
December 14, 2009, 01:16 AM
I just scored a 10mm Olympic Arms 16" upper for 50 to 80 yard shots and some deer hunting.

Santa was good to me.

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