A Genuine .38 caliber Round

[Timthinker]

During a recent discussion about the new .327 Magnum round, one of our moderators voiced an interest in "a true .38" cartridge. I found this statement interesting since I, and no doubt many others, have often thought about a cartridge that is a genuine .38. Marketing obstacles aside, is a true .38 cartridge something that others here have thought about? If so, does anyone believe we might see one developed someday? Consider this thread food for thought.


Timthinker

[Jim Keenan]

It wouldn't fill much of a gap between the current ".38" (.357") and the .40 caliber (".401"), but there might be a market if promoted. (There is a market for anything with enough hype and advertising!)

It might even be a good idea, but getting a new cartridge going, especially one with (probably) a whole new case and new base size, would be tough. The cartridge companies will be happy to start production as soon as a major gun company tools up to make the gun, while the gun companies will be happy to make guns as soon as there is an ammo supply, and so on.

So, promote the new ".39" caliber; get the gunzines interested. Handmake some cases and work over a gun or two. Get some ballistics data, and so on. Lots of luck!

Jim

[DMK]

I don't know. Between .38 Special, 9mm, 357, 357Sig, .40, 44Mag, and .45ACP, I think we have all the bases covered. I don't really see any gaps there than we need a new cartridge to fill.

I just wish we had something like .357 Mag in a semi-auto. .357 Sig is maxed out at 125gr. 10mm seems to fill the need nicely, but .40S&W has eclipsed it with the same limitations as .357 Sig.

IMO, we'd have been better off if we had less cartridges. I mean if we just had .357mag and 44Mag in revolvers and 9mm, 45ACP and 10mm in semi-autos, all ammunition R&D would have been focused there and we could have had a lot more possible loads to choose from.

[Brian Williams]

A true 38 with a semi rimmed case that is a short case and the right powder would be quick to load in a revolver with either moonclips or a speed loader. Running a 165 grain lead bullet at about 1000 to 1100 would be a killer round and it would make a nice sized hole and pack enough punch.

[pinotguy]

A long time ago, Romania was looking at adopting the 1911 for their military. They wanted a true .38 caliber bullet so Colt developed the 9.8 ACP. It used a bullet that measured .378-.381 at 130-gr. and the case was roughly the same length as the 45 ACP. It was also rimless so that it could function in the 1911 platform. The Romanians ultimately went a different route but this was a really cool cartridge.

[parisite]

I guess the closest we have now is the 9x18 Makarov at .364'', which is actually 9.2mm.

[Jim Watson]

The really neat thing about the Balkan 1911 was that the gun was scaled to the 9.8mm cartridge. It was not just a .45 with a smaller hole in the barrel and the magazine blocked up like current smallbore Government Models. It was about 7/8 the size of a .45ACP gun. The American Rifleman did a feature article on it several years ago and it was a beauty. They only made three and one of those was assembled out of spare parts years later with a .38 ACP barrel because the 9.8 ammo had been shot up.

FN did a similar prototype for a 9.65mm cartridge long before the GR and GP/BHP came along. I wonder if that was just the 9.8 Colt listed by bore diameter rather than bullet diameter. I have only seen one picture and cannot be sure. Bullet style was different but case dimensions were not given.

[sixgunner455]

Well, we could just load rebated heel bullets in .38 Special shells, bore the cylinders all the way through w/o the step, and then have the barrels bored correctly.

Didn't somebody make a cartridge like that in the late 19th century?

[brownie0486]

I just wish we had something like .357 Mag in a semi-auto

Here ya go DMK::D

This model B has remained almost as pristine as the day it left the Dan Coonan factory. It was recently thoroughly gone over by the armorer who worked for Coonan Arms and put them together. It has 4 mags that accompany this piece which are scarce as hens teeth to find.

Brownie

[Johnny Guest]

What I'd really like to see in revolver cartridges is more development and commercialization of the .41 Special cartridge. You can already have one made up, and I believe it is Star Line that makes the brass.

The .41 Spl is simply a cut-back .41 magnum, at a comfortable velocity and a 200-to-210 gr. bullet. The shorter chambers prevent sticking a mag in by mistake.

I haven't studied the dimensions, but I believe an L-frame S&W could be modified to take this round.

Johnny

[Molasses]

Hmmm, IIRC, the later loadings of the old .41 LC used a "true" .38 diameter bullet. The original load had a heel-type bullet at the same diameter as the outside of the case, but the later ones used a conventional style with a hollow base to fill out and fit the bore. So, there'd be the brass for a starting point...

[Walkalong]

What I'd really like to see in revolver cartridges is more development and commercialization of the .41 Special cartridge. You can already have one made up, and I believe it is Star Line that makes the brass.
Yes, please.
I haven't studied the dimensions, but I believe an L-frame S&W could be modified to take this round.
That would be sweet indeed.

[Timthinker]

Sixgunner, you may be thinking of the old .38-40 cartridge, which actually had a bore diameter of .401 if memory serves me correctly. I did not realize the .41 Colt was a true .38 though. I appreciate the responses to date.


Timthinker

[sixgunner455]

Tim, I knew that the original .41 Colt was a rebated heel load. A relative has one and I looked into making up some loads for her (it was her dad's) so she could shoot it. But I was thinking that there was a .38 loaded the same way. I could be wrong. .44 American cartridges were rebated heel, which was one of the original loadings in the S&W large frame, top-break revolver. .44 Russians weren't, which was a manufacturing improvement on the ammunition and was the base cartridge for the .44 Special and then the .44 Magnum.

The .38-40 is a 10mm/.40 cal, but is also not loaded rebated heel (like a .22). The original FBI 10mm auto/.40 S&W experiments were run with standard .38-40 bullets.

[Timthinker]

Sixgunner, I never knew .38-40 bullets were used in the 10mm/.40 S&W experiments, although the bore diameter for the .38-40 was .401. Thanks for pointing that out to me. Also, please keep us informed about the .41 Colt reloads. I have never known anyone who has fired the .41 Colt, so you have my attention on that matter. Good luck.


Timthinker

[DPris]

Pretty much like asking for a true .44-caliber .44 Magnum. Where's the need, what's the point, and why the bother? :)
Would we need to come up with a true .36-caliber .36 Navy percussion revolver? It's actually either a .375 or .380 (true .38), but nobody's ever complained about the difference between name & actual measurement.
Denis

[DMK]

This model B has remained almost as pristine as the day it left the Dan Coonan factory. It was recently thoroughly gone over by the armorer who worked for Coonan Arms and put them together. It has 4 mags that accompany this piece which are scarce as hens teeth to find.I forgot about the Coonan. You're lucky to have such a beautiful example Brownie.

Of course, I'd be happy to find a Bren Ten or even a Colt Delta Elite.

It's a shame these guns are so rare today.