Do You Carry a Backup or Just a Primary?

[TimM]

I have been reading a lot lately about carrying a backup as opposed to just carrying a primary weapon. I am just wondering, what is everyones general feeling on carrying a second or third gun?

How many of you carry a backup?

Do you carry more than one backup?

If your primary is an auto, do you carry a wheel gun for backup?

If you carry a backup what is it?

If you do not carry a backup have you ever considered it? Why or why not?

If, God forbid, you should ever have to use your backup do you fear the courts making you out to be a gun toting zealot? But then again, if have to use your backup I assume that you might not otherwise be around for the courts to judge anyway.


Thanks

[shooter1]

I am retired LE. When I worked I always carried a back up. In the last years it was a P3AT. I had previously carried a 22mag, a 25acp, and most of time, a 38 snubbie. Now, I get along quite well without one as a civilian, as I don't have to persue trouble. I admit to being a bit lazy these days, and even frequently carry the P3AT as my solo. If I am going out where I might meet old friends, I'll carry a bigger gun, but never more than one these days.
str1

[Scanr]

Unless we are talking about an EOTWAWKI situation, I only carry a primary weapon for this reason. Of all the self defense situations I have read about or heard on the news, the person only ever needed his primary gun and never had to reload in a gun battle. I personally don't go walking in seedy areas of town, I pretty much keep to myself and family. I figure if I am going to have a situation where I will have to defend myself and family outside the home, it will occur with one or two thugs trying to rob us going to or from our car. My carry is a 15+1 an if I need more than that, I need to practice more or call the army.

I support those that feel they need to carry more, their lifestyle is different than mine. These are my reasons, solely.

[tnieto2004]

I carry a primary ..

[TOADMAN]

One pistol no extra mag...

[spwenger]

...I carry two primaries or I carry two backups.

There are numerous reasons to carry at least two handguns. I normally focus on the first three:

1. Since I cannot legally expose or draw a concealed firearm, absent the same justification to use it, there is a good likelihood that I will not be justified to draw until an assailant has insinuated himself into bad-breath range. At that point, I may already have one hand occupied defelecting or controlling his attack. Wearing a gun behind each hip allows me to draw and fire with either hand, as circumstances dictate.

2. If the threat is still active after the first five rounds, the second gun will likely be my first reload.

3. If I am with a companion who knows how to shoot but may not be carrying and there should be enough warning, the second gun allows me to arm the companion.

My own choice, which works for me 365 days a year, down in the heat of a Phoenix summer or up here in winter at 6,500 feet above sea level, is a pair of S&W Centennials in IWB holsters. This chioce is based, in part, on my assessement that this revolver is the ideal backup gun, in that it can fire and continue to fire under the widest variety of adverse circumstances. As a private citizen, I regard both of my handguns as backups or, to paraphrase Clint Smith, the tools to fight my way to my nearest long gun.

So... take your pick - I either carry two primaries or two backups.

[Lonestar49]

...

Depending on gun, one res mag for 10, or 9, rounders and 2 res mags for 7 rounders, if on the road or out and about within the concrete jungle.

They all hang (concealed) in the same place.

None if out in the yard or visiting neighbors.


Ls

[nhhillbilly]

On Duty I used to until they changed the policy on 11/1/2007. I know can only carry the duty pistol. I always carry at least one spare magazine and a flashlight along with a knife.

[Ringer]

Primary and a reload for me, most of the time. Commitment to 1 is hard enough on top of multi tool, flashlight(s), pocket knife, wallet, keys, glasses....

[scurtis_34471]

I carry one gun and occassionally an extra magazine.

[Brian Williams]

642 only most times, no reload, no backup.

[DMK]

I have carried my KelTec P32 or S&W 642 in a weak side pocket as a BUG to my Colt CCO IWB. I've only done it a few times and mainly just to try it out and see how it works. It's very bulky, even with the P32 and I think I'd rather have an extra mag or two of 45ACP instead.

However, I must also admit to being a bit lazy. Most of the time my CCW has been just the 642 in my strong side pocket with one or two speed strips dropped a different pocket.

As a matter of fact, right now I have my new SP101 in my right pocket with a speed strip in my left.

[elrod]

Primary only. And only with one charge of ammo. I don't remember the statistics on the exact # of rounds expended in a gun-use situtation, but it's below 5. It's a practical matter. I try to have enough gun without getting carried away.:D

[mavracer]

most of the time I just carry my BUG I occasionally add a primary.

[Mad Magyar]

I personally don't go walking in seedy areas of town, I pretty much keep to myself and family. I figure if I am going to have a situation where I will have to defend myself and family outside the home, it will occur with one or two thugs trying to rob us going to or from our car. My carry is a 15+1 an if I need more than that, I need to practice more or call the army.


+1...However, I include Wally World's parking lots in the evening as "seedy".:D

[denfoote]

I don't know if you call it a back up, but I do also carry a pocket knife.

[VHinch]

My Taurus 85 Ultra Lite is my always gun. During the work day I can only ankle carry, and it had become 2nd nature to have that ankle gun on, so when I am off work and carry my "primary", my ankle gun is also there. Not so much because I feel the need for a backup, but it is nice to have for those occasions when there is a need to remove your primary and be more discrete.

V

[skinewmexico]

Not being an LEO, or paranoid, I only carry one.

[geo815]

4 1/2" Benchmade fixed blade w/locking holster.

3 3/4" Benchmade, Pardue drop-point folder.

G27 w/11 round mag, one in chamber

[wuchak]

I'm with Mavracer. My Kel-tec P3-AT with an extra mag in a Desantis Nemesis holster goes with me everywhere but work. Occasionally, more now that winter is coming and I usually have a light jacket on, I carry my Ruger SP101 2 1/4" 357 in a Galco Fletch strong side belt holster. On those occasions the P3 goes in the weakside front pocket as backup and in place of a reload for the SP101.

[The Lone Haranguer]

When I carry, it is just one gun, plus a reload. However, there is no clearly articulable reason not to carry a backup, or even a matched pair of the same gun.

[Geronimo45]

Do you carry more than one backup?
No.

If your primary is an auto, do you carry a wheel gun for backup?
The reverse is true. Primary's a .357 4" K-frame. BUG's a little Beretta.

If you carry a backup what is it?
Beretta 21A, .22LR.

If, God forbid, you should ever have to use your backup do you fear the courts making you out to be a gun toting zealot?
Yup - but I don't put much stock in it. If the action taken is a reasonable one, I think I'd pull through just fine.

[mavracer]

Not being an LEO, or paranoid, I only carry one.
paranoid? If I have two guns what the heck would I be afraid of.

[DMK]

If, God forbid, you should ever have to use your backup do you fear the courts making you out to be a gun toting zealot? But then again, if have to use your backup I assume that you might not otherwise be around for the courts to judge anyway.Your defense attorney could ask any LEO on the stand if they carry a backup gun and they would very, very likely say yes (Unless they are forbidden by policy like nhhillbilly by administrators who care more about politics than officer's lives).

[Scanr]

+1...However, I include Wally World's parking lots in the evening as "seedy".

+1 for you! The wally world we go to mostly is right on the edge of a very seedy area. I don't go there after dark.

[Crunker1337]

I have heard that a good choice is a auto, with a smaller version of the same auto as backup that way you can use the same magazines. For instance a 4" GLOCK, then a baby GLOCK with an extra magazine or two, both kept loaded. I can't really imagine any reasonable situation that would require more than that.
I personally would stick with the above combination, plus maybe a knife/multitool.

[grimjaw]

Normally only carry a primary, although a backup might be in the vehicle on long trips. Any place where I feel I'd need more than one gun, I try not to stay too long.

jm

[Floppy_D]

Just my P229. I'm not opposed to the idea of a BUG, but I have no reason to doubt my primary. VHinch: All English Kings Drink Beer? ;)

[Rexster]

No back-ups, but I do carry more than one primary.

[Double Naught Spy]

Primary with 1-2 spare mags and a backup.

[Shadan7]

...on how you want to define things. I always have either a R9 (small 9mm) or a 642 in my pocket. Sometimes I have a somewhat bigger autopistol elsewhere, also. But I don't consider any of them a BUG, really. Usually one's enough (with a reload), but I don't mind having the second on hand just in case. If that makes me paranoid, so be it. :rolleyes:

7

[sdj]

If I am going out where I might meet old friends, I'll carry a bigger gun, but never more than one these days.

:-)

Just one, no reloads. Where I live, I'd sooner see a P51 land on Main Street than I would a gunfight. :-)

[VHinch]

Floppy_D-
Something like that :D

Semper.

V

[doc2rn]

Living outside of Topeka Ks we seem to draw a seedier element from KC. We had 7 shooting/ drive by just today, so I always carry a BUG usually a 642 to compliment my G32. I'm sure it is more than I'll ever need. I think the general rule is 3 shots in 3 seconds, for most gunfights so I carry 18.

[Gator]

I am an ordinary civilian, not a mall ninja, wannabe cop, or closet Rambo. When I am out of the Republik of Illinois, and in a State where my permit is valid, I carry one five shot S&W revolver, and consider myself adequately armed.

[The Ruckus]

I believe the idea of needing a BUG is a little ridiculous. One time at a gun show, I heard a vendor attempt to explain he keeps a pocket gun with his full size carry handgun to pretend like he's getting his wallet and distract him with it while we grabs his full size...I mean seriously....

[Big Boomer]

for work, I only carry a primary (xd-45) and a 1 backup mag.

While "off the clock" I usually pack my sp101 as a bug and quite a few rounds for both.

I keep wanted them to frisk me as I leave some of those gouge your wallet electronics stores thinking I have stuffed some dvds or something in my pants, purely to see their face when they ask me to "raise my shirt".

Now if that actually happened I would most likely get pissed, but it's this dream I keep having hehe :p

[Nematocyst]

642 only most times, no reload, no backup.Ditto.

I live in a small city. Mostly hang pretty close to work/home (by necessity).
So, extra fire power is within feet of where I spend most of my time.

[repo]

I live near Topeka too. I never heard anything about 7 shooting in one day, where did you get that news? The last shooting I heard of was the CHL holder who shot himself in the buttock outside some bar in North Topeka. It is not all that bad, I have never felt that threatened here, most of the violence is gang related in the east side. The only incident that really stuck in my mind was the man who was murdered in front of his family at a car wash a few years ago. I don't carry a backup or an extra mag but I do carry a knife.

[shooter1]

sdj,
Glad someone got it!
str1

[Ala Dan]

Yes, I carry a BUG~! Primary is usually a .45 ACP Kimber Stainless Ultra Carry;
and the BUG is for the most part, a KEL-TEC P3AT .380~! ;) :D

[Mad Magyar]

he keeps a pocket gun with his full size carry handgun to pretend like he's getting his wallet and distract him with it while we grabs his full size...I mean seriously....

Now that's funny....:D
BTW, did he have a pot-belly, stained shirt & bad-teeth? If so, I know the guy....:)

[TimM]

I believe the idea of needing a BUG is a little ridiculous.

Ruckus,

Can you validate your statement?

I can see several valid reasons to carry a BUG. Just because you personally don't feel the need for one in no way makes the practice or idea of carrying one ridiculous.


If you have to fight, fight to win!

[ACP230]

Most often I carry one S&W 649 in a front pocket in a pocket holster.

In winter I often back it up with another 649 or an M38 in a jacket pocket.
It's easier to get to the gun in the jacket, at times, than the one in my pants pocket.

Occasionally I've backed up the 649 with a Beretta 21A in an ankle rig. It's easier to reach than a gun in a pocket holster when seated in a car.

Arming another who isn't carrying is a good reason to carry a BUG too.

[Koos Custodiet]

Duuuuudes!

I live in South Africa. We have just about the highest violent anything rate in the world, at present.

I carry one gun. A 6 shooter.

I've been, on occasion, *very* glad that I had it with me. But I've never been in a situation where I had to pull the trigger on someone.

I think the awareness (no condition white when you're carrying) is much more important than the firepower. And the chance (even for me, at least six times more likely than most of you guys to get in a bad situation) of needing a backup gun is just soooo low.

OK, having said that, I'd not mind an NAA mini belt buckle. If I could get a licence for the thing. But then I'd probably carry the primary a whole lot less...

[Gator]

...awareness (no condition white when you're carrying) is much more important than the firepower.

Now there is an important statement! Situational awareness is paramount. You are better armed when in condition yellow and carrying a revolver, than you are in condition white, no matter how many guns you have.

Dankie, Meneer Custodiet

[JesseL]

I usually only carry my primary and a knife, but some of these posts criticizing the need for a BUG seem a little poorly thought out.

I know a lot of people that seem to think that carrying one handgun (or even just a knife :what:) is a mark of paranoia, silly, or a rambo mentality.

Some people wear a belt and suspenders, some keep multiple fire extinguishers in their homes, and some carry multiple firearms. Denigrating anyone for being over prepared is hypocritical at best.

[Mad Magyar]

But I've never been in a situation where I had to pull the trigger on someone.

Poignant point....Even Mas Ayoob after being in law enforcement for many years and has been one of the most quoted authorities on this vary subject for 4 decades; admits he has never fired on anyone. The threat of his gun & a strong voice command took care of business....:)
The point: statistics. The vast majority of LEO's who are in the business of "perp-control" have never discharged their weapon in the line of duty...Source: FBI Uniform Crime Report.... As civilians, we become almost a non-statistical entity....:rolleyes:
Again, for me, carrying just one & knowing what to do with it: nuf-said...:)

[10-Ring]

Several months ago, I started to play with the idea of carrying a back up gun...for me, it was the beginning of a long, rough road. I went through so much just trying to decide on a primary piece that now that a BUG has entered the picture, I'm a basket case :rolleyes:
I think that for me, at this moment in time, I will not have a BUG, but probably have a taser at the ready just in case ;)

[Hardtarget]

I already feel like "Batman" ...what with all the stuff I carry. Besides my primary and a reload, there are all the keys, light,two knives, phone, wallet. I don't know how to deal with a hideout or back up gun.

Mark.

[mljdeckard]

I do not mock anyone for carrying more than one, but I do not at this time. If one bad thing can happen, (you get attacked) another bad thing can happen. (Your primary plan fails for any of a number of reasons.)

The main reason I htink I don't, is I am working with the family when I'm out and about as well, sometimes carrying a child. It's hard enough to stay on top of one gun. Adding another makes life more complicated. FOR ME, an extra mag, a knife, a flashlight, and a cell phone is plenty of backup for now.

One day I could see myself getting a sub-compact Glock, or a Colt Detective Special in an ankle holster.

[bpisler]

I have my KT P-11 in my right front
pocket at all times,when i'am not
at work i also have a 3" K frame
on my right hip.It feels strange to
me not to have the P-11 in the
pocket so i just leave it there when
i carry my primany.

[hemiram]

I carried one of my Dan Wesson Model 15's or my S&W 28 as my primary gun, and I had a series of backup guns that I couldn't trust to actually work, before finally settling on a Beretta 950. I've never had a single problem with it.

I didn't carry a backup until a friend got assaulted and his main gun taken by the idiot who hit him after my friend got into it with his wife at the carry out/gas station he was working at. As the guy was kicking him, he pulled his Walther PPK and the guy froze like a statue. As it was he had to have a bunch of stitches and had two broken ribs. The moron went to jail.

After that, I started carrying one. Never really had to use it, but I did come close to pulling it once during a fight with a loon who was trying to take my gun.
My partner solved the problem by whacking him with a paper punch.

[Clipper]

Carrying a second gun just feels silly...I mean Michigan only recently became shall-issue, and for nearly 50 years I was fortunate enough to never need a carry gun, but always resented being forced not to carry one. However, the one time I carried two (I was trying a new pistol/holster and kept my P3AT on me in case the new combo became a drag and I might want to take it off before I got home) I felt like a Mall Ninja in training or something...

[mjrodney]

A holstered j-frame in one pocket, a speed strip in another, and a fast pair of running shoes rounds out my setup.

[fiVe]

S&W 642 with 5 extra rounds in a Bianchi speed strip.

[tegemu]

one 1911 & spare mag.

[logical]

Without exception, every "what do you carry" thread ( I am not suggesting that this thread is one) is full of pictures of pristine grain-matched lizard and alligator belt/holster combos fashionably complimented by enormous mint condition custom guns and knives. Why people do this I don't know. I assume these are people who don't carry at all.

Then there are those who genuinely carry a full or medium size gun always or nearly always. For those, I commend you. And even more so if you also actually regularly conceal a back-up. I have no idea how you do it.

I am in way too many situations where walking around in a seasonally innappropriate jacket or an untucked shirt is simply unacceptable....and I'm not sticking a gun anywhere near my boys in some wierd custom modified underwear holster nor am I going to be seen sporting a fanny belt purse at any time soon (ever).

I have guns up and down the size scale and would love to carry my two-tone P229 or the P239 SAS or even the Ruger SP-101 but I just don't do it more than once or twice a year. In reality, the only thing that ever gets carried regularly is a Rohrbaugh R9 in a pocket or ankle holster or maybe the Smith 340PD in a pocket holster. Even on the weekend, in the winter, on a day where I am not going anywhere where carry is prohibited...I just find it easier and more importantly, perfectly adequate to put one or the other in my pocket. The only time I have carried two at once was in a range bag.

[RustyShackelford]

Well known gun writer; Massad F Ayoob, a weapons/tactics instructor and sworn LEO, wrote a recent item about BUGs(back-up guns). It goes into detail about how and why a second gun or "back-up" is a smart idea. If I were a sworn LEO or federal agent I would carry at least 2 firearms with me while on duty. I'd use either a smaller semi auto pistol model as my main duty weapon(like the HK P-2000/P-30 and the P-2000sk) or I'd carry a J-frame S&W model 638/640 .357/.38spl DA only revolver. A well made semi auto pistol that can take the larger model magazines is a good back-up. ;) A DA/SA revolver may be good if you are ill, wounded or must be able to shoot one-handed in a CQB type incident but a DA only weapon is safer and better to justify in open court/criminal investigations.
I remember a police shooting many years ago in Pittsburgh PA, where 2 sworn LEOs in heavy winter jackets were in a fight with a subject who had a loaded firearm. The officers were going to arrest the subject and when an LEO went to unholster his small frame DA revolver, the hammer spur got caught up in his parka, :uhoh:. These incidents can show why it is so important to know what weapons and tactics work best before you decide what to wear or carry with you.
-Rusty S

[PX15]

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_6832.jpg

Walther P99c/AS when conditions allow, along with my LWS32..

LWS32 all the time..;)


J.Pomeroy

[rdrancher]

Primary - 642 or Vintage CA Undercover w/Speed Strip or Hi-Power 9mm

BUG - Taurus PT92 truck gun w/spare 15rd mag

My profession usually keeps me within sight of my truck.

rd

[fwm]

I carry 25 rounds at all times.

13 in my 9MM
7 in .380 &
5 in my .357 mag

[Mad Magyar]

I carry 25 rounds at all times.

13 in my 9MM
7 in .380 &
5 in my .357 mag

:D:D:D How about a pic on that one.....:)

[miko]

How about carrying a second gun if only to loan it to a person without one?

miko

[ExSoldier]

I've never carried a BUG. Prefer a primary and a spare mag or speedloader (in the case of my M642). In addition I always carry a knife (Spyderco Delica combo blade) and a flashlight (Surefire G2) Anything more than that is too bulky and too heavy for the south Florida weather. My spare mag is almost always of a higher capacity than the primary. Hence when I carry my Sig P245 with a 6rd mag + 1 in the tube, my backup is a P220 8rd mag. If I carry my Glock M27 there is the std 9rd mag (+1) and I'll carry either a M22 or M23 mag with 15 or 13 rds respectively. I have a plastic spacer installed on each so as to provide a seamless grip area. If I carry my Sig P226 Blackwater 9mm, my spare mag is the newly redesigned Sig P226 20rd mag. Ooooh yeah!

[ATW525]

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b372/lonelygunman/l_410c5b852079c8f8773393ba1d33debe.jpg

I'm currently packing a 5 shot J frame and one "reload". :D

[Finalizer]

I almost always carry a BUG, and for the same reason I carry my primary. Two guns isn't any more difficult or any more of an inconvenience (for me) than one, and better to have it and not ever need it than to not have it and need it.

I carry a Sig P229 IWB as my primary, and a S&W 340PD as my BUG in my weak-hand front pocket.

[sb350hp]

Primary only extra mag sometimes.

If BG breaches 24 foot parameter w/ me my intention are to be locked on and ready to rock anyhow. If I cannot hit him with 8 how effective are the second 8? After all my intention is to 1. eliminate the threat 2. retreat to safety if possible.

Someone mentioned "bad breath range". If I can smell his breath and I do not have my weapon fixed on him, if he has a knife I have already lost (FBI studies prove the 21 to 24 foot barrier rule)

[The Annoyed Man]

One H&K USP Compact .40 S&W with 1 extra magazine (24 rounds total). Otherwise, one 1911 with 1 extra magazine (17 rounds total). I figure that if one or the other pistol by itself isn't enough firepower, then I don't belong there anyway and need to be somewhere else... ...in a very big hurry.

...(shades of "Ninja is my name. The mall is my game")... :D

[Oldskoolfan]

I can definatley agree with Rusty Shackleford on this.

I prefer guns that allow magazine compatability. Its nice to have a fullsize spare and a BUG that can also use those spares.

[Mad Magyar]

"I love listening to your little piss-ant soldiers talk tough."
Bennet- Commando(1984)

This is what this entire thread reminds me of....I wonder how many actually carry on a regular basis, non-LEO's, and or act like the above???:rolleyes: Being able to conceal just one handgun & perhaps a spare mag is quite a feat in all types of clothing-weather conditions...Give me a break....:uhoh:
Remember, Mas Ayoob writes & runs a PD school for a living....HE has never, by his own admission, fired one gun let alone use a B.U.G. on any perp during his long & illustrious career....Now, Jim Cirillo is another matter....

[rocket lad]

Just a primary - XD .45acp, spare magazine in the car

[BikerRN]

Off-Duty I carry a BUG 95% of the time.

I prefer revolvers, but today I have my Glock 19 and a Kahr PM9. My normal Off-Duty Carry is a N-Frame Revolver and a J-Frame.

The reason I carry a BUG is because I want a weapon accessable to either hand since I do not know which hand I will be able to get to a weapon with when the ballon goes up.

Biker

[Mat, not doormat]

On days that I'll be sitting most of the time, it's a 1911 on my right hip, 1-3 spare mags on my left, and a kel-tec p32 in my pocket.

On days that I don't have to sit all day in a driver's seat that has entirely too much in the line of kidney support, I might replace the spare mags with a second 1911. that's actually pretty comfortable when standing or walking around, but jabs me in the ribs in the driver's seat. Sometimes, when your primary is the heaviest thing on earth short of an IPSC open gun, carrying more stuff actually makes it more comfortable. Balances out the belt, if you've got a second gun, or a bunch of mags, instead of just one.

~~~Mat

[Rexster]

BikerRN: "The reason I carry a BUG is because I want a weapon accessible to either hand since I do not know which hand I will be able to get to a weapon when the balloon goes up." Amen, Sir! My earlier response, of carrying no back-ups, but more than one primary, reflects this same train of thought. Moreover, I do not carry multiple weapons because Mas Ayoob says so, but because Mas Mas Ayoob wrote that Jim Cirillo does so, among other reasons, of course. I also know what it's like to hear a rattling sound inside a weapon, and dissassemble it to find two mid-sized pieces of mainspring when the weapon is supposed to have just the one big piece of mainspring. Also, being a skinny guy 24 years ago, when I started carrying, and having added only one inch to my waist size since then, I find it easier to conceal two or more smaller weapons than one big one.

[Srigs]

I generally carry two guns. A primary on strong side a backup on weak side pocket holster. Generally a P32, P3AT or M60 is my choice.

Some times I have carried 3 just because.

[BobMcG]

Primary, extra mag. and a Kersaw.

[fivepaknh]

Statistically I’ll likely never use my primary gun in defense of my life. So in the unlikely event that I do have to use my weapon statistics show that one is, in the vast majority of cases, enough. If the situation comes that I need my gun and I either can’t access it in its holster or the gun fails to function, then I guess God’s telling me it’s my time.

For you guys that carry a bug, why not add to the scenario and wear some light body armor under your street clothes? How about a helmet for the very unlikely event a meteor comes down and strikes you? If you want to go armed to the teeth then knock your self out. It’s your right and I never want that right taken from you, but it’s also my right to chuckle at you guys for carry all that unnecessary stuff.

[Jkwas]

My backup is my primary: Keltec P3AT. Being in a warm climate, my clothing usually won't allow for more.

[spwenger]

Statistically I’ll likely never use my primary gun in defense of my life. So in the unlikely event that I do have to use my weapon statistics show that one is, in the vast majority of cases, enough. If the situation comes that I need my gun and I either can’t access it in its holster or the gun fails to function, then I guess God’s telling me it’s my time.
Sounds like a standard pacifist argument for not carrying in the first place.
For you guys that carry a bug, why not add to the scenario and wear some light body armor under your street clothes?
Having worn soft body armor, I can tell you that it is much easier to conceal a second handgun than it is to conceal the body armor, particularly in hot weather. Spend some time around uniformed cops and you will invariably notice the back panels printing through their uniform shirts. That doesn't even start dealing with the issue of comfort in hot weather.
How about a helmet for the very unlikely event a meteor comes down and strikes you? If you want to go armed to the teeth then knock your self out. It’s your right and I never want that right taken from you, but it’s also my right to chuckle at you guys for carry all that unnecessary stuff.
Sounds as though you're more interested in generating chuckles than in defending rights but I'll continue to defend your right to respomd that way to folks who elect to take more precautions in life than you choose to.

[fivepaknh]

Sounds like a standard pacifist argument for not carrying in the first place.

Like I said, I defend your right to carry 5 guns, a 1000 rounds, 3 knives, a flare gun, and a samurai sword. I'm just being practical. I look at the statistics and I listen to those that live in truly dangerous places, like the member here from South Africa. I also listen to cops that while on the job intentionally put themselves in dangerous situations. I can understand if these people felt the need for more than one gun.

We all have ideas on what's reasonable. I'm not forcing what I find reasonable on you. I'd never want to see a law passed that limits how many weapons a person can carry.

I see it this way too. If you ever have to defend yourself you're likely to only need the one gun. When the police arrive, as a matter of procedure you're likely to be searched and cuffed. When they find the other gun and possible spare mags, that will be brought up in front of a jury that's probably as gun friendly as we are. Now you can say you'll ditch the other gun before the cops arrive, but you may not get that opportunity. Especially is there are witnesses around.


For the record, I'm against ALL gun laws. I believe laws should only come into play if the tool (gun) is misused.

[ATW525]

When they find the other gun and possible spare mags, that will be brought up in front of a jury that's probably as gun friendly as we are.

I suppose it could be a problem for the people that are armed like Travis Bickle. However, if it even got to a jury, I would be more worried about the proscuter showing up with a printout of of a page showing your sig line, then I would be about having two guns. :neener:

[spwenger]

Like I said, I defend your right to carry 5 guns, a 1000 rounds, 3 knives, a flare gun, and a samurai sword. I'm just being practical. I look at the statistics and I listen to those that live in truly dangerous places, like the member here from South Africa. I also listen to cops that while on the job intentionally put themselves in dangerous situations. I can understand if these people felt the need for more than one gun.
Hey, I don't really know how much of the thread your read before you decided to post your initial "defense" of my right to carry 5 guns. However, if you did start at the beginning of the thread, you either failed to notice or chose to ignore part of my posting (#6):
1. Since I cannot legally expose or draw a concealed firearm, absent the same justification to use it, there is a good likelihood that I will not be justified to draw until an assailant has insinuated himself into bad-breath range. At that point, I may already have one hand occupied deflecting or controlling his attack. Wearing a gun behind each hip allows me to draw and fire with either hand, as circumstances dictate.
It's fine to mock the overuse of the term "tactical" but those of us who use it correctly consider it virtually synonymous with "practical," from the standpoint of what is realistic in a fight, as opposed to putting holes into carboard targets, which don't punch, slash, stab or shoot at you.

As to your "statistical" argument, please consider the John Farnam routine:

Q. How often does someone actually get murdered someplace like (insert name of your home town)?

A. Just like anywhere else - only once.

I'm not trying to convince you to carry a second gun if you don't choose to do so. As my former teaching partner used to say to the occasional student who repeatedly questioned the tactics we sought to teach, "It's your gunfight." It's just that I think I can do better without your "defense" of my right to do so.

[fivepaknh]

Meant to say "When they find the other gun and possible spare mags, that will be brought up in front of a jury that's probably NOT as gun friendly as we are.

[fivepaknh]

However, if it even got to a jury, I would be more worried about the proscuter showing up with a printout of of a page showing your sig line, then I would be about having two guns.

You're probably right.:p I saw the line on "Happy Gilmore. Happy's old boss(Rickard Keel) had it on his t-shirt.

[Choclabman]

I carry a G32 with a spare magazine. I have at times, carried a G33 at the same time in a pocket holster. Oh, the horror.

A lot of times in the winter, I carry a 4" 686(modified to accept full moons) with two spare moonclips.

[george29]

I once wore a green khaki uniform and carried an evil black rifle. I also wore a blue uniform and my personal carry was a MKIII although the G-17 & G-19 were also approved carry (any nine with a double stack was usually approved). BUG's were unknown and unapproved although certain undercover types were given special clearance. In the trunk of the car was always a long gun. Most cars had two officers or one officer and one volunteer deputy, there was always hand held radios to back up the one in the car. On the belt, most officers carried spare mags, flashlights, cuffs, mace, a folding knife and the hand portable.
As a regular joe, I don't have a portable hand-held radio that puts me in immediate communication with brothers who will at the drop of a dime race to my rescue, I no longer wear my vest, I don't have a partner that walks where I walk, when I walk there, nobody had my back when I stumbled upon a few gangsters that were trying to bust into the community mailbox at a very dark 8pm and all I had on me was my p-32 wishing it was my SBH in the safe. Yes, I know that usually one gun is more than enough, but what happens when it's not? Wouldn't you rather have a tiny BUG like a p-32 or a NAA just in case your wondergun has a Murphy on you? Springs break, feedlips get bent, magazines sometimes slack-off and those wonderful internal locks could just get turned enough from an unintentioned whack just enough to lock it out of battery if only for that crucial first second that you need it. Nobody is forcing anyone to carry a gun here, primary or BUG, but I have seen enough of what happens to those "happy-go-lucky", "it won't happen to me", "what are the chances of", that I prefer to wear my safety belt, keep a spare tire and two cans of tire inflator, and to hold onto the grab rail as I climb up and down my cab, and yes, to have that tiny BUG hoping that I never need it. I can't remember how many times I have watched the meat-wagon take some poor guy or his child on their next to last ride because of something that should never have happened.

[annielulu]

Khar PM9 with 124g Gold Dot +p as primary and Bond Arms "Texas Defender" derringer loaded with 200g Corbon+P .45 long Colt as BUG in pocket.

[Oldskoolfan]

I realize I need a j-frame.

[Mad Magyar]

Springs break, feedlips get bent, magazines sometimes slack-off and those wonderful internal locks could just get turned enough from an unintentioned whack just enough to lock it out of battery if only for that crucial first second that you need it.

The "what IF" is alive & well.....Please, we are not talking about LEO's and their circumstances....For civilians, most B.U.G.s are not that accessible in a CQC situation. How about another what if: you get overpowered, the perp now has 2 or more of your weapons....:rolleyes:
No one should a carry that "special gun" unless they are completely confident in it's reliability and it's capability.....:)

[jahwarrior]

i think carrying a BUG is dependent on your situation, just as carrying a single gun would be. most of the LEOs i speak with carry a backup, usually one that matches their primary, ie a glock 26 for their glock 17, etc. a lot of convenient store workers/owners also practice the BUG method, with a shotgun or large bore handgun being the primary, and smaller, concealed weapon being the back up.

normally, i only carry one gun. that is to say, i always carry a gun; at home, at work, out shopping, in a nightclub, always. i also carry a knife, but that's more out of lifelong habit, and for utility, than for SD. lately, though, i have been pocket carrying a BUG, a small .380, not because i feel i need to, but because i'm just trying to get used to pocket carry. still, a BUG is nice to have, just in case.

[george29]

Please, we are not talking about LEO's and their circumstances...

I know, I feel that LEO's have less of a need having been one, that is NOT to say that LEO's don't need one, but rather that non-LEO's, when they need a BUG, they need it as much as, or more than a LEO because of all the other factors that a LEO has going for him, all those things that a non-LEO does not, making the BUG all the more important.

For civilians, most B.U.G.s are not that accessible

Why? Most LEO BUGs are pocket carry and usually of a major caliber (.38, .380, 9mm, .357, .40) or as previously mentioned, of the same caliber as the primary. A non-LEOs BUG can be as simple as a P-32 or NAA .22 which fits very readily in even a toddlers pocket. So many people carry two knives, if carrying the NAA is that uncomfortable, then I have no solutions for that person. One of my BUGs as a LEO was a S&W M-60 that I kept in my shirt pocket, I have a really big chest, it wasn't fashionable or comfortable, but I got used to it.

what if: you get overpowered

So what's the diff if you have one or two? Either they take both or they take one and don't find or expect the second, except for financial loss, I don't see the problem.

[spwenger]

How about another what if: you get overpowered, the perp now has 2 or more of your weapons....
While I make no claim to have conducted a scientific survey, I have been using the internet to track (and share) firearm-related news for nearly 11 years. During that time I have only come across three incidents in which private citizens were either disarmed by assailants or killed in the process of an attempted disarm. (In one incident in south Phoenix, a man who was carrying openly was attacked by a pair of robbers who wanted his gun; he died in the attack but it was unclear from the news report if the robbers actually got the gun.)

While I know people whose primary gun is not particularly accessible, I would assume that someone astute enough to carry a backup would do so in a location that was reasonably accessible. If it's not readily accessible to its owner, how would the assailant know it was there to take and how would the assailant access it?

Further, in law enforcement, one of the main arguments for backup guns is precisely if an assailant has either gotten hold of the officer's primary handgun or prevented him from drawing it. I recall an incident on the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department in which a trainee and his field-training officer were attacked by a group of Nation of Islam members. When the trainee went to the aid of his FTO, his Beretta was pinned in the holster by one of the assailants, whereupon he drew his J-frame revolver from his back pocket and shot the guy in the head. At that point, the rest of the group suddenly remembered urgent appointments elsewhere.

In an earlier comment about tactics and practicality, I referred to what is practical in a fight. The "what if" game is useful to prepare for realistic scenarios that may confront you. I will bite my proverbial tongue about its use to disparage sound tactics chosen by others.

[Rexster]

The only way to absolutely avoid being overpowered, and losing weapon(s), is to leave all weapons at home.

[Mad Magyar]

The distinction between what LEO's carry & the average CCW holder is quite pronounced....LEO's expose their primary weapon and any perp worth it's salt knows there is B.U.G. somewhere for obvious reasons...
The average civilian is carrying the largest caliber he can manage with what I call the 3 C's: Concealibility, Capability, & Comfort...Yes, comfort, I don't care what C. Smith says about a weapon "is comforting & not necessarily comfortable"...
Trying to manage two or more handguns in the above context is approaching zealous proportions in which the average pistolero need not participate...
Like it's been said on this thread, do as you please but there reaches a point where practicality is bordering on the extreme...:)

[TimM]

there reaches a point where practicality is bordering on the extreme...

There is also a point where naivety borders dangerousness.

[Choclabman]

Why are people so insecure about themselves, that they try and push their viewpoints on other's.

If carrying one weapon makes you happy, go for it. I carrying five makes you all gitty inside, then go for it.

Telling another person they are wrong, because they do no share you views is pure BS.

I only have the G32 on at this time. But tomorrow, is a brand new day.

Tommorrow I will carry the G32 in a VM2 , and maybe the G33 in a pocket holster. Or maybe the Model 40 in pocket holster.

[Nematocyst]

During the last week or two, I was swallowed and partially chewed by an aggressive monster called "work". Just last night (by choice), I was spit out, took the night off (well after 10 pm), and slept long (I'm talking almost 12) and sound for the first time in ... oh, never mind.

The point is, I'm behind on my homework. I've only read a few posts on this page, haven't touched the two pages before that. So, if there was a pop quiz given in this thread right now about the poll numbers on this issue, I'd fail. (Well, unless the old "strike fingers on desk, choose answer corresponding to which one stings most" technique works, but it was never very good in the past.)

But what brought me to post was seeing a bit of smoke rising from the thread, and thinking it's too valuable a discussion to get a lock slammed on it, so I thought I'd just post a thought or two.

<ahem>

1) IMO, if people want to carry 0 guns or 20 guns all at one time, it's fine with me as long as they observe the four rules of gun safety with all of them, and don't point them in my direction.

2) Even though in some earlier post in this thread, I stated unequivocally that I only carry a primary with no bug, and that I didn't even carry a reload, I realized later that oversimplified things.

Speaking ONLY for myself, the correct answer is, it depends.
(I guess that would be "all of the above" on a multiple guess quiz.)

In my world, a day is not necessarily a day. All are different.

For example, here are four conditions that would motivate different carry strategies for me.

A: In my studio (which is where I am, oh, say 336 out of 365 days a year), I am wearing only my SW X42,
but no speed strip because my back up (carbine) is a less-than-7-sec protected sprint from anywhere here.

B: In a favorite camp in the Ponderosa woodlands (which is where I'd rather be 336 out of 365 days a year), my primary would be a 65. (Oh, no, wait - if I'm on a walk, the "primary" would be the 1894C with 65 bug as 65. The X42 would also be in the pack. Reloads? Of course. Several. What are packs for besides food, water, layers and rain gear? Oh, and I haven't even mentioned the edge tools.)

C: In town in public, for now, alas, no gun. I've completed training, but haven't yet gotten the CCW permit yet. (See above reference to aggressive monster.) When I get that permit in the near future, I'll carry an X42 during normal, stable (*) conditions, but will adjust the strategy as necessary. (* See entry D.)

D: During unstable conditions, perhaps during a civil disturbance caused by, say, tense social situations (riots, etc) or some extreme weather event, I'd conceivably be wearing a primary + bug, with the carbine near by when at work, home or base camp.

There are numerous other scenarios,
but I hope those illustrate my point:
it depends.

Nem

[Crow1108]

I just carry a primary, 2 magazines, and a knife. That's about all I really need. Thinking about adding a can of OC to it though.

[Browning]

I don't have a back up gun ON ME in addition to my primary.

For my life style that's WAY too much stuff to carry every day of my life as I'm much more likely to get bit by a stray rabid dog in my neighborhood than be attacked by a squad of terrorists with AKM's wanting to kidnap me for state secrets. I do have an old 12 gauge pump shotgun in my car that you might consider a back up (depending if I'm close enough to get to it if things turned bad AND I need a 2nd gun).

I do have some pepper spray, a spare mag and a folding knife that I carry, but for me carrying around one gun is enough. If I was a cop or if I lived in a bad urban neighborhood where something bad was likely to happen I might change my tune, but for around here I'm overarmed just carrying what I have.

[Mad Magyar]

There is no doubt on why LEO's carry a B.U.G.; in the line of fire & there day to day business: they need it..
Looking at the day-to-day civilian, if he has a primary carry & extra mag giving him extra firepower: why the need for an extra gun? You have more than enough and I assume are smart to the point of seeking cover before the "calvary" arrives..
So, the only explanation for the B.U.G. is IF your primary fails...If you have not thoroughly tested out your piece & have the utmost confidence in it: you selected & have the WRONG weapon....
Most PD schools that deal with non-law enforcement students do not deal with this issue at any length...Even tactical re-load practice is a has-been....
As my mentor, B.Steiner, once suggested: acquire some martial-arts training instead of the extra piece....:)

[PX15]

JMOFO:

I've sorta come to the conclusion that when I'm unable to cc my Walther P99c/AS I might just start carrying my wifes LWS32 along with mine.. I can do that with no problem as the little Seecamps are just so concealable..

Then I'd have 14rds of Gold Dots, and no mag change required...

Just another option.

JP
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a73/Laserlips/100_6909.jpg

[spwenger]

As my mentor, B.Steiner, once suggested: acquire some martial-arts training instead of the extra piece....
On the wall, to my left as I type this, along with three instructor certificates from the Law Enforcement Activities Division of the NRA and one from the National Law Enforcement Training Center (for weapon retention and disarming), is an instructor certifcate, dated June 20, 1999, in the Cantonese martial art of wing chun kuen. It is precisely wing chun's emphasis on ambidexterity that leads me to list access with either hand as the primary reason that I choose to carry a revolver behind each hip.

As to an earlier remark about comfort, I find that this symmetrical carry system avoids some of the back strain others have suffered and also present a more balanced image, where any possible bulges don't draw as mch attention because they appear symmetrical.

As I have said before, it's your gunfight. It makes me no never mind if you choose not to carry, to carry only one gun or to carry more guns than I do. However, when you choose to disparage what I consider sound tactics, in a forum where you may influence others, I will continue to present an opposing viewpoint.

[ATW525]

So, the only explanation for the B.U.G. is IF your primary fails

Or easily access to weapon in a wider variety of circumstances.

Or the ability to arm another person who isn't able to carry themselves.

Or the fact that drawing a second gun is often the quickest and most foolproof way to reload a revolver under stress.

Did you actually read the thread at all?

If you have not thoroughly tested out your piece & have the utmost confidence in it: you selected & have the WRONG weapon....

I have as much confidence in my weapons as I can in any mechanical device. If you don't believe that any firearm can fail, then I don't know what to tell you. I would consider your viewpoint that it can't happen if you've thoroughly tested your firearm to be unrealistically naive.

[fivepaknh]

I have as much confidence in my weapons as I can in any mechanical device. If you don't believe that any firearm can fail, then I don't know what to tell you. I would consider your viewpoint that it can't happen if you've thoroughly tested your firearm to be unrealistically naive.

So let's say you have a quality firearm that's well maintained. Now in order to need a b.u.g you have to

1. find yourself in a situation where you even need a gun
2. be in a situation where the mere sight of your gun doesn't end the threat
3. this high quality well maintained firearm decides at that very moment to fail rather than the dozens of times you've fired it at the range

There's one group that wants to remove our right to self defense, and there's the other end that goes to ridiculous lengths to defend themselves. I believe there is a reasonable middle ground.

Of all the people that carry all the extra firepower, wonder how many smoke, don't wear their seatbelt, eat like crap, never exercise, or do any number of things that could cause an early death. My guess is that many are guilty of at least one of these things. Though when carrying they supply themselves with a ridiculous amount of hardware for the most extreme and unlikely situations. This is what leads the more reasonable people to label them mall ninjas or wannabe cops.

Carry what you want. It doesn't affect me, but I do find it very amusing. I'm not trying to tell you what you can or cannot carry. I'm just giving you my opinion on what's reasonable.

[ATW525]

So let's say you have a quality firearm that's well maintained. Now in order to need a b.u.g you have to

1. find yourself in a situation where you even need a gun
2. be in a situation where the mere sight of your gun doesn't end the threat
3. this high quality well maintained firearm decides at that very moment to fail rather than the dozens of times you've fired it at the range

Or need it for any of the other reasons people carry BUGs, or did you miss the rest of my post (and quite a few other posts in this thread)?

[fivepaknh]

I read them and they're still VERY unlikely for a non-LEO.

[mavracer]

Carry what you want. It doesn't affect me, but I do find it very amusing. I'm not trying to tell you what you can or cannot carry. I'm just giving you my opinion on what's reasonable.
you know I think I will the nice thing about this disagreement from my perspective is if I'm wrong oh well I carried extra weight today.If your wrong you die.

[fivepaknh]

We could all die anyday. The point is how far should we go to prevent it. Should wear suits of armor? Should I walk around in a bubble to prevent catching an infectious disease? I look at statistics and adjust accordingly.

[mavracer]

Should I walk around in a bubble to prevent catching an infectious disease?
actually I try to lick a doorknob at least once a week to keep my tolerance to disease down.

[ATW525]

I read them and they're still VERY unlikely for a non-LEO.

Considering I'm not an LEO and I've personally been grateful that I've had second gun for two out of the three other reasons I mentioned, I will have to disagree with your assessment of what is unlikely.

[fivepaknh]

Considering I'm not an LEO and I've personally been grateful that I've had second gun for two out of the three other reasons I mentioned, I will have to disagree with your assessment of what is unlikely.

You've needed a backup gun twice and you're not a LEO? I'd stay in during lightning storms. You seem to have extraordinarily bad luck. Though, I'd love to hear the details. I have a difficult time believing it. As a matter of fact, I love for someone to post a story or two from some media source where a civilian has needed a bug. I know the media isn't exactly gun friendly, but we've all seen self defense stories in the news.

Having two guns available and having two guns on your person are two very different things. The reason I say that is I have a S&W model 60 in my truck 24/7. It's there because while belted in I can't access my carry gun that sits at 7:00. Also, there are times I go out of the house quickly and forget my carry gun. In those cases I can just strap on the .38.

[GEM]

Most civilian gun uses have NO shots fired - so most of us could carry an empty gun.

The issue is whether you carry for the modal gun use or worry about the tail of the distribution and the cut point in the tail.

For example, the gentleman who lost the Tyler, TX courthouse gun fight was undergunned. He was killed by a guy with a vest. Thus, should we always carry our AR's around?

You might come under attack as in the TX tower incident?

Or, you most like never fire a shot - so carry unloaded? That seems unreasonable.

Carrying a bug or extra mag is for the chance that you get into a more extreme incident that the standard one mugger yells at you incident that can be handled by a unloaded J frame that scares such a dude away.

It is perfectly reasonable to plan for the tail, as if you are hit in your dominant arm or the gun goes belly up.

So - my Glock 19 once broke a spring - oops! A G-27 had a mag go bad. I was a Beretta 92 shoot parts out of it. Oops. The American Rifleman has a view of the new Kel-tec that went belly up during a test.

Since the vast majority of gun fights by civilians have no shots fired - we don't see a high bug usage but that is not to say it's stupid or nuts to carry one.

[ATW525]

You've needed a backup gun twice and you're not a LEO?

I've needed to arm a companion once, and I've needed to access my BUG once when my primary was not accessable. Neither incident ended in shots fired (well, technically the second incident did have shots fired, but I was able to avoid getting involved), and neither incident required even presenting a firearm, but both times I was extremely grateful that I had the second gun.

[spwenger]

There's one group that wants to remove our right to self defense, and there's the other end that goes to ridiculous lengths to defend themselves. I believe there is a reasonable middle ground.
That's an interesting dichotomy: no RKBA vs. carrying more than one firearm. If you don't currently live in New Mexico, you might want to consider moving there. By administrative fiat of the New Mexico DPS, Concealed Handgun Licensees may only carry one concealed handgun in that state - sounds like the perfect compromise for you.

Would it also be ridiculous for a homeowner who reloads to have a dry-powder fire extinguisher in the kitchen and a water-dispensing fire extinguisher near the reloading bench (and perhaps even a gas-type fire extinguisher near the computer)?

[george29]

So tonight I actually am happy that I carry a BUG. I left my Primary in the car because I was working in the yard all day, toward early afternoon boss says to take a trailer and drop off at the other yard, take a different trailer and drop it the other side of town. Well, rush hour and dumb NM drivers and I find that at 6pm I am 2 miles from home and boss says to park the truck at home and bring it back in the a.m, or I can drive another hour back to the yard, drop the truck, get in my car and drive an hour home. I chose to save the $5 in gas and 2 hours driving leaving the primary locked in the car in the locked yard (hope it's there tomorrow). But I still have ny BUG, a teeny, tiny, insignificant NAA - no harm, no foul.
One good reason to have a BUG as a non-LEO.

[hand_loader]

Do you carry more than one backup?

No

If your primary is an auto, do you carry a wheel gun for backup?

Yes

If you carry a backup what is it?

A 32 wheel with gold dot hollow points in an ankle holster.

If, God forbid, you should ever have to use your backup do you fear the courts making you out to be a gun toting zealot? But then again, if have to use your backup I assume that you might not otherwise be around for the courts to judge anyway.

Yes I have the fear that they will try to make things look worse than they are.


I also carry a P99 in 40cal. as prime and a maglight (2 AA) and a folding knife plus 2 spare mags for the p99 in a belt web band.

[fivepaknh]

That's an interesting dichotomy: no RKBA vs. carrying more than one firearm. If you don't currently live in New Mexico, you might want to consider moving there. By administrative fiat of the New Mexico DPS, Concealed Handgun Licensees may only carry one concealed handgun in that state - sounds like the perfect compromise for you.

You really haven’t read my posts or maybe I haven’t made myself clear. I believe there should be NO gun laws on the books. I’m libertarian on many issues. When I talk about both sides of an issue I mean that some people believe it’s not necessary for anyone to own, let alone carry a firearm. Then there’s the other extreme where those people find it necessary to carry multiple firearms. I would never want restrict your rights. Just because I disagree it doesn’t mean I want to legislate it.

[Mad Magyar]

By administrative fiat of the New Mexico DPS, Concealed Handgun Licensees may only carry one concealed handgun in that state
Damn, are we progressive or what? :)

Everyone has stated an opinion, including myself, but let's look at the FACTS!
Altercations: Gunshots Fired: Includes LEO's, everyone for the past 35 years...
Range:2-3 yds, 95% of those within 3-5 feet.
# of Shots: 2
Time Duration: 2-3 seconds.
Source: F.B.I. Uniform National Crime Data

Just to be clear, all my training is based on PD, a.k.a. CQC...No bullseye at longer distances, just self-defense drills: all with one-weapon, multiple target scenarios....
It doesn't bother me if you carry whatever, just a rationale on not carrying a B.U.G. while out & about....
Appreciate all the constructive criticism....:)

[bigmike45]

Do you carry a spare tire in your car???

I have carried a backup since I started carrying....better safe than sorry!!!

bigmike

[Rexster]

The problem with statistics regarding the number of shots fired per incident, is that many encounters involve only ONE shot, yet is average is a bit more than one-point-something.

[GEM]

People who spout the average don't know anything about statistics. :banghead: As pointed out, depending on distribution shape, half the incidents could be above the average.

Also, in statistics you usually take into account the confidence interval. Meaning do you plan for the extremes. There may be 5% that have to fire more than 2 or 3 shots (just an example), so do you want to be the expected 5 out of hundred guys who can't meet that challenge.

Like I said, the average is no shots fired by civilians - so you don't need ammo.

[Nematocyst]

As pointed out, depending on distribution shape,
half the incidents could be above the average.For example, the Beta distribution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beta_distribution).

As long as Beta is 1 or less.

Normal (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Normal_distribution)?
Gaussian?
Bell-shaped?

Why be normal?

[Mad Magyar]

I believe some of you missed the point about using actual firing data and how this applies to having a B.U.G. or not?
Instead of sharp-shooting statistics in a way that everyone knows can be distorted, ask how much fire-power does JQ Citizen need out there?
If everyone agrees that their primary carry is reliable or it wouldn't be in their holster, why in the world do you need two? Especially when so many carry a spare mag. It appears to me that some have an over-compensation factor or lack of confidence in their primary weapon with all the "what-ifs" scenarios...:confused:
To put it succinctly; the best B.U.G. is between "your ears".....

[GEM]

I think the distribution is probably positively skewed but that doesn't mean that one still shouldn't consider where in the tail, you make the cut.

Mad M. - reliable primaries belly up. Reliability isn't absolute. Magazines belly up. If you shoot a lot, you will see it.

When you start talking about over-compensation, then your argument loses credibility. It's clear you don't understand the statistical part of the discussion when you talk about the data but ignore the distributional part of the discussion.

[spwenger]

If everyone agrees that their primary carry is reliable or it wouldn't be in their holster, why in the world do you need two? Especially when so many carry a spare mag. It appears to me that some have an over-compensation factor or lack of confidence in their primary weapon with all the "what-ifs" scenarios...
You have been furnished (often more than once) with tactical examples of where an additional handgun may either be more accessible (e.g., your right hand is occupied deflecting or controlling assailant's knife so you draw gun on left-hand side of body with left hand) or doubling the number of armed good guys on the scene (e.g., a companion knows how to shoot but is not carrying so you lend him a second gun).

Statistics? I've had to draw a gun once on a hostile adversary. As luck would have it, it was my left hand that was checking his knife hand so I was able to draw with my right (primary) hand. However, had it been my right hand that had first been committed, I would have been as prepared to draw the gun behind my left hip, with my left hand. Do I care if this is a statistcally significant sample? No, the lesson was well enough taught with one occurrence.

[Stevie-Ray]

P32 is backup unless there is no primary. Then it serves as primary.:D

[Rexster]

If we simply used stats to judge whether we should carry a second weapon, we might just learn that we need not bother carrying any weapons at all. Most people carry no weapons, and the human population keeps increasing. Let's just ban handguns.

[Rexster]

No, let's not ban handguns; just seeing if y'all were paying attention.