Allowing a felon to shoot a gun without knowledge of them being one?


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PILMAN
November 12, 2007, 02:35 PM
I am wondering if it is a felony to take a felon to a shooting range without knowledge of them being a felon, in other words, the person told you they were a felon after you had taken them shooting? Is it our duty to ask a person before taking them to the range if they are a felon?

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tnieto2004
November 12, 2007, 03:14 PM
I think you could still be accountable for taking them from a legal standpoint.. Not knowing wouldn't keep you out of trouble

cyclist
November 12, 2007, 03:16 PM
Is it against the law to possess a stolen firearm if you don't know it's stolen?
Is it against the law to speed in your car if you didn't see the speed limit sign?

There are exceptions, that's what judges and lawyers are for ( of which I'm neither ).

TexasRifleman
November 12, 2007, 03:22 PM
Felons can't shoot someone else's firearm as long as they don't take possession and control?

I'm not sure that's right.

Machineguns must be in the possession and control of the registered owner but they allow others to shoot them all the time.

I don't think you have a problem.

Conqueror
November 12, 2007, 03:24 PM
You can take felons shooting all you want. They cannot own guns, there's no law against them shooting your gun while you supervise.

hyphen
November 12, 2007, 03:24 PM
From what I know it doesn't say that a felon can't fire someone else's gun at the range, just that they cannot legally purchase or own one. If that were the case I believe all gun ranges would be doing background checks on their customers.

EShell
November 12, 2007, 04:00 PM
G.Gordon Liddy broadcast that he shoot's "his wife's" guns . . .

nhhillbilly
November 12, 2007, 05:08 PM
It is illegal for a felon to possess a firearm. In NH it is ellegal for a felon to possess a dangerous weapon. It doesn’t matter who owns it.

There is a State of mind requirement for someone to commit a crime. IE in NH you have to prove knowingly provide a firearms to a person known to you to be a prohibited person. Do not allow a prohibited person to touch your firearms.

CleverNickname
November 12, 2007, 06:53 PM
Here's the text of the law:


(d) It shall be unlawful for any person to sell or otherwise dispose of any firearm or ammunition to any person knowing or having reasonable cause to believe that such person—
(1) is under indictment for, or has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year; (http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/18/922.html#d)

rcmodel
November 12, 2007, 06:56 PM
As long as you are not letting them shoot it inside a 7-11 store,
you should be O.K.! :what:

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

One of Many
November 12, 2007, 11:49 PM
TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 922

(g) It shall be unlawful for any person—
(1) who has been convicted in any court of, a crime punishable by imprisonment for a term exceeding one year;
(2) who is a fugitive from justice;
(3) who is an unlawful user of or addicted to any controlled substance (as defined in section 102 of the Controlled Substances Act (21 U.S.C. 802));
(4) who has been adjudicated as a mental defective or who has been committed to a mental institution;
(5) who, being an alien—
(A) is illegally or unlawfully in the United States; or
(B) except as provided in subsection (y)(2), has been admitted to the United States under a nonimmigrant visa (as that term is defined in section 101(a)(26) of the Immigration and Nationality Act (8 U.S.C. 1101 (a)(26)));
(6) who has been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions;
(7) who, having been a citizen of the United States, has renounced his citizenship;
(8) who is subject to a court order that—
(A) was issued after a hearing of which such person received actual notice, and at which such person had an opportunity to participate;
(B) restrains such person from harassing, stalking, or threatening an intimate partner of such person or child of such intimate partner or person, or engaging in other conduct that would place an intimate partner in reasonable fear of bodily injury to the partner or child; and
(C)
(i) includes a finding that such person represents a credible threat to the physical safety of such intimate partner or child; or
(ii) by its terms explicitly prohibits the use, attempted use, or threatened use of physical force against such intimate partner or child that would reasonably be expected to cause bodily injury; or
(9) who has been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence,
to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.


The government uses the commerce clause to justify all kinds of restrictions, and since almost every firearm has at some point in time crossed a state line in a commercial transaction, then any felon who even touches a firearm or ammunition is committing a new federal felony by doing so. This has been used to add on charges to increase the prison time when guns are used in the commission of a different federal felony. Do any of you want to risk being charged as an accessory to a federal crime by knowingly providing a gun and ammunition to a felon?

STW
November 13, 2007, 12:18 AM
There's the law and there's how the law is used. A year or two ago a model was charged with possession as a felon when she was photographed wearing only a gun as part of a calender photo shoot. All she did was hold it for the photographer. (No I can't give you a link to a copy.)

cookekdjr
November 13, 2007, 12:27 AM
I personally prosecuted a felon for possession of a firearm by a convicted felon, when he had his sister take his photo while he was holding her gun.
He's in prison now.
We did not prosecute the sister...although we could have. She cooperated with our investigation, so we gave her a pass. We were mainly concerned with her brother, who sent the photo to the woman he had been stalking to let her know a) he was out of jail and b) he had access to guns. I was a fed at the time so we prosecuted him for the Federal Firearms statute (I think it was 922(g), can't remember for sure).
Anyway, the crime occurs when the felon has access to the gun. If you facilitate that access and know that he's a felon, you are just as guilty as badguy....not that you can rely on what I say and you should of course consult your own attorney...not valid in Hawaii or Alaska...only one per family may enter...void where prohibited....

4v50 Gary
November 13, 2007, 01:46 AM
You can take felons shooting all you want. They cannot own guns, there's no law against them shooting your gun while you supervise.

Well, not here in California. The only time a felon may possess a firearm is when there is an immediate need to use it for self-defense. Once that immediate need passes, they may no longer possess a firearm. Better check with your state law. If you knowingly allow a felon to handle your firearm, you may have some 'splaining to do.:uhoh:

skidooman
November 13, 2007, 02:14 AM
not here in California. The only time a felon may possess a firearm is when there is an immediate need to use it for self-defense. Once that immediate need passes, they may no longer possess a firearm.

Well lets hope the next time frank the felon is getting mugged there happens to be a pistol lying on the street so he can pick it up and use, then put it right back down. That makes sense... (fart noise)
I hate California...

General Geoff
November 13, 2007, 02:21 AM
to ship or transport in interstate or foreign commerce, or possess in or affecting commerce, any firearm or ammunition; or to receive any firearm or ammunition which has been shipped or transported in interstate or foreign commerce.

So technically a felon in state A is perfectly legal to purchase, own, and possess a firearm that has been manufactured in his state of residence, so long as it's never left the state.

Interesting.

TexasRifleman
November 13, 2007, 09:18 AM
Again I think you need to dig into the word "possess" here.

Take the machinegun example. I may not allow anyone other than the person named on the tax form to have possession of my MGs, but I may allow them to shoot it in my presence. That is not considered to be out of my care, custody, and control.

Otherwise how would Knob Creek exist?

jeep-2
November 13, 2007, 09:30 AM
It dosen't matter what any state law says, the federal law says that a felon may not even have a cartrige in their possession.
the only time they can even be near a gun is when it is in the hands of a LEO.
they can have and shoot BP guns, but not inlines, some states do not even give them that right.

trueblue1776
November 13, 2007, 09:38 AM
You guys ever hear of that swimsuit model who was a felon, her P.O. saw her picture in a gun calender and sent her back to prison.

"Mistake of fact" is a strong defense, as it adds a reasonable doubt.

ZeSpectre
November 13, 2007, 10:13 AM
You can take felons shooting all you want. They cannot own guns, there's no law against them shooting your gun while you supervise.

As I understand it, no you can't. Even if it weren't illegal for them to handle/use the firearms, the minute you hand them ammunition they have broken the law...and so have YOU.

Additionally, having a convicted felon in the car with you while you are armed or while firearms are in the vehicle, can be grounds for arrest and prosecution. There's a sticky local case headed to court right now where a guy was coming back from hunting and (so the story goes) gave a hitchhiker a lift into town. Well he got stopped for speeding and it turns out the hitchhiker was a convicted felon. Felon in vehicle with firearms... EVERYONE gets arrested and the Judge gets to figure it out later.

As I understand it the entire case hinges on if the hunter knew the hitchhiker at all or if the hitchhiker was a complete stranger.

If you had a squeeky clean record you might, just might, get away with "but I didn't know he/she was a felon"...once.

LAR-15
November 13, 2007, 10:36 AM
Do you have details on that case?

Thanks

Conqueror
November 13, 2007, 10:36 AM
I gotta agree with TexasRifleman. I think prosecuting someone for allowing a felon to touch a gun is a gross over-reach by the DA. Like TR pointed out, I cannot allow anyone to "possess" my suppressors, but I can freely let people shoot them all they want. It is illegal to "possess" marijuana, but cops handle it all the time. The spirit of "possession" is ownership, not transient handling. If a cop owned marijuana, he would get arrested. If he handled it, he would not.

I'm sure there are plenty of court cases that disagree with me, but I doubt any of you are prepared to argue that prosecutors always follow the spirit or letter of the laws.

ZeSpectre
November 13, 2007, 10:53 AM
Do you have details on that case?
Not yet, I'm trying to find out more but it hasn't been publicized yet. I only know about it via LEO contacts. It sure could make an UGLY precedent though :barf:

Conqueror
November 13, 2007, 11:43 AM
Further, am I supposed to do criminal background checks on everyone I meet at the range and allow to shoot my gun? Even asking isn't sufficient, as not many felons are going to respond, "Why yes, I am indeed a felon partaking in the gun range."

Unless prosecutors expect you to run NICS checks on all your friends and coworkers, taking a felon to the range without knowledge that he's a felon should not land you in jail if your local DA has a shred of decency.

FTA84
November 13, 2007, 12:00 PM
Just a hypothetical:

What are the rules for the wife / girlfriend living with a convicted felon (particularly wife-beaters) to own a gun ? I mean surely the gun cannot go everywhere with the wife / girlfriend. They should have one for their own defense.

What about a roommate? At which point does the gun become stolen by the criminal and not made accessible by the live-in party?

CleverNickname
November 13, 2007, 12:07 PM
So technically a felon in state A is perfectly legal to purchase, own, and possess a firearm that has been manufactured in his state of residence, so long as it's never left the state.

Not really. Current interpretation of the law says that even if a specific product was manufactured in one state from raw materials originating in that state and never leaves the state once it's manufactured, it can still be regulated because it affects the market for similar products that have been involved in interstate commerce. Look at Wickard v. Filburn (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wickard_v._Filburn).

jeep-2
November 13, 2007, 01:16 PM
Just a hypothetical:

What are the rules for the wife / girlfriend living with a convicted felon (particularly wife-beaters) to own a gun ? I mean surely the gun cannot go everywhere with the wife / girlfriend. They should have one for their own defense.

What about a roommate? At which point does the gun become stolen by the criminal and not made accessible by the live-in party?
no guns in the house, not long ago a calif cop was married to a gal on parole, he made the mistake of bringing his gun home and leaving it out in the open.. the wifes parole officer came in and found the gal alone with the gun and sent her back to the slammer, i'll search for the story.

avpro
November 13, 2007, 01:39 PM
wife / girlfriend living with a convicted felon (particularly wife-beaters)

Why would one live with a convicted wife-beater? I swear, some folks ask for there own trouble.

Frog48
November 13, 2007, 01:56 PM
no guns in the house, not long ago a calif cop was married to a gal on parole, he made the mistake of bringing his gun home and leaving it out in the open.. the wifes parole officer came in and found the gal alone with the gun and sent her back to the slammer, i'll search for the story.

Not necessarily true. A friend of mine's father was convicted of a felony as a teenager, but now is a stand-up guy with no trouble in the past 30+ years, owns a successful business, etc.

Well, when my friend was living with his parents while he was in college, he kept several shotguns and rifles in the house. He kept them in a safe in his bedroom. As long as the guns arent easily accessible to the felon, it *should* be legal.

Now whether a judge and jury agrees... that could vary, depending on the interpretation of "possession".

Havegunjoe
November 13, 2007, 04:23 PM
The question is, do you have some way of reasonably knowing this person may have been a felon? If not I would say you are safe. If someone had told you a week before for instance, "you know I think so-and-so was arrested once", then yes you should have asked the question before hand. You are not selling him a gun or giving him a gun, and you are not a government agency so you are not obligated to ask if something does not cause you to ask.

Pevey
November 15, 2007, 07:18 AM
Everyone is posting their own interpetation of "possession", some of it kinda out there but everyone is smart in their own way I guess.

The only interpetation that matters is the Judges. He will not be happy to see someone who was in his or somone elses court before coming back in for handling a firearm. No matter how long Johnny Straight was a good guy.

You do the time, you lose some rights. Being on a jury, voting and playing with guns are some of them. Just like drinking that last beer could cause you to take someones husband or child away forever. Some decisions you have to live with the rest of your life.

Double Naught Spy
November 15, 2007, 07:46 AM
If you are holding a gun, it is in your possession.

Similarly, if you are holding illegal drugs when the cops walk in and see you, regardless if they belong to your buddy who is standing right next to you, who gets busted?

mcole
November 15, 2007, 11:20 AM
if one is holding it to shoot it, regardless of who the owner is, you are possessing it at that point in time. i am a lawyer and i did stay in a holiday inn last night. mcole

joab
November 15, 2007, 11:34 AM
My next door neighbor refuses to step foot in my house because I have guns

Claims that his former PO told him he could be violated if he did

No paper left on him and he has a letter restoring his civil rights, still won't come in

PILMAN
November 17, 2007, 07:03 PM
Can someone really be prosecuted over just a picture of them holding a firearm? How does one know that it is a real firearm? Heck what if the picture was taken before they became a convicted felon for example?

I have heard of similar cases like the boy who posted pictures of himself with airsoft guns and the police apparently raided his home thinking they were real. I am guessing they would need some sort of evidence though?

trueblue1776
November 18, 2007, 10:48 AM
PILMAN-
I mentioned that model in the gun calendar who was arrested for felon in possession. I don't have a link, maybe somebody can help me out?

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