[Cosmoline]

In the late lamented thread that got derailed on political issues, dstorm raised this contention:

ya might wanna check the import regs, all of the Mosins being imported are out of Bulgarian Arsenals NO military arms or weapons can legally be imported directly from Russia they must have been in the possesion of another country not used in military service for a minimum of 5 years before they can be imported into the USA so guess

That's a new one on me, considering how many Mosins I've seen that were never in Bulgarian hands or stamped with Bulgarian arsenal marks. I've seen a great many that are import stamped "Russian," indicating the country of origin was post-collapse Russia. I've also seen Polish, Finnish, Austrian, and other Mosins not to mention many assorted arms old and new which must have come from Russia because they were made there. If they came from Bulgaria, it was from some form of holding company not through the state arsenals. But I'd like to learn more about the process in place for this. Does anyone know an actual site or source for information?

[El Tejon]

From which Form 6?:confused:

All? One shipment? Last three years? Now? When?:confused:

[Cosmoline]

The ones I've seen have been over the past decade and most have come from multiple imports because they were marked with different importer stamps. I never saw "Bulgaria" as the country of origin, as that would have gotten me highly excited thinking I had a rare Bulgarian Mosin.

My understanding is this, and I have no official source for it so I could be totally wrong. Clinton and Yeltzy got got together at a summit after the collapse of the USSR and as one part of a larger trade agreement the longstanding ban on Soviet weaponry was lifted to allow for export of a large number of surplus firearms. Not AK's but bolt action rifles, mostly Mosin but also whatever Nazi capture they had lying around. This opened the way to import mass amounts (certainly hundreds of thousands if not millions) of 91/30's M-38's M-44's and the bulk Mosins we know and love that still go for next to nothing because there are so many of them.

[El Tejon]

Maybe there is a Bulgarian middle man out there arranging importation?

A Bulgarian "CIA" (the arms importing company, not the spy agency)?

[mp510]

Actually, the various Mosin Nagant models are specifically mentioned in the voluntary import/ export control agreement signed by Clinton and the Russians as being an importable model, as are numerous other WWII vintage military bolt actions and handguns. Some of the Mosins may be coming from elsewhere, but tht is most likely because they were shipped there or left there by the Soviets/ Russians for other purpsoss- not for shipping to the US.

You can not circumvent those regulations by dropping the rifles off in an acceptable country for a few months before shipping them to the US. C&R imports require official decleration of where the weapon has been for the 5 years preceeding it's importation.

[Cosmoline]

OK, I found a reference to this, so I'm not just smoking crack:

L.A. Times reports that President Clinton strikes a deal with Russia's President Yeltsin for the potential importation of millions of Soviet era firearms and billions of rounds of ammunition. As a result of that agreement a huge number of 1950's production Russian SKS rifles are imported by U.S. dealers. All are equipped with bayonets.

http://www.simonov.net/chronology.htm

The mid-90's also marked a very significant change in import patterns from the eastblock, and I remember seeing my first big crates o' Mosins after that. I believe the Clinton-Yeltsin deals allowed for import of what we would consider C&R arms only. So the really cool stuff of later manufacture, even if semiauto, must still sportasterize itself in order to meet the "sporting purpose" and made in USA requirements. Thus the condition of the Russian made AK clones compared with the 100% military SKS-45's and Mosins.

[El Tejon]

Cosmo, isn't the VRA a separate issue from this Bulgarian matter?:confused:

[Ash]

As far as I understand it, these are all coming out of the Ukraine, which is not Russia but was part of the USSR. That would explain why these rifles do not have Bulgarian marks on them.

There were some rifles that came out of Bulgaria, but only indirectly. The mis-matched and scrubbed M91's that are out there evidently came out of Romania. Some of these do indeed have the Bulgarian pine-cone mark, as well as some with Serbian marks. But the Balkan M91's were not refinished and were all universally scrubbed of their Czarist marks. The Ukrainian Soviet Refurbs have the Czarist marks intact (where applicable, such as on my 1916 updated Dragoon/M91).

Ash

[Cosmoline]

Dstorm is the one who mentioned the Bulgarian imports. I've never seen any myself. His contention was that we've never been able to import directly from Russia, which I don't believe is the case. He was also disputing my contention that there had been an agreement between Clinton & Yeltzy to allow mass importation of C&R firearms from Russian arsenals.

As far as I understand it, these are all coming out of the Ukraine

Why do the import marks (CAI, Aztec, etc) all say "RUSSIA" on them as the country of origin?

[Ash]

Of course, I could be wrong. I'm certainly not importing them. However, my Finnish-rebuilt M91's made in Russia all have Russia stamped on their barrels, even though they came from Finland.

Anyway, these were clearly made in the USSR/Russia. I think they are coming out of the Ukraine all the same.

Ash

[Cosmoline]

Well hopefully somebody knows where the real scoop is. This whole area of small arms is rife with rumor and speculation. I remember one rumor about a huge number of Finnish Mosins coming from a sunken Russian freighter, and another about how the Finns had to make a bunch of them secretly to avoid breaking a treaty with the Soviets.

[cracked butt]

Why do the import marks (CAI, Aztec, etc) all say "RUSSIA" on them as the country of origin?
I may be wrong, but I believe its common practice to stamp the country of manufacture. Though not always.

For instance I have:

-A savage enfield with an import mark with USA on it. (CAI)
-An Oberdorf M96 marked 'Sweden' (Sarco)
-An Oberndorf M41B from a different importer marked 'Germany' (Samco)
-A 98/22 importer from Turkey marked 'czecho' (CAI)
-a 98/29 marked 'czech' (SAMCO)

So it is quite conceivable that Century is importing the current crop of M-Ns from Bulgaria and marking them 'Russia'

[Ash]

I don't think they are coming out of Bulgaria because they lack any Bulgarian acceptance marks. I think that theory arose from Century selling 91/59's as Bulgarian carbines. That controversy lives yet, but there are Russians who remember seeing them carried by Railroad guards and the like. It seems most likely that these arms are coming out of a former republic of the Soviet Union, not merely a member of the Warsaw Pact. The Ukrainian connection seems most likely, as it was a more stable republic. The Soviets were not likely to have large stashes of arms in the Baltic or Islamic republics. These could be coming out of Beylorussia (which is where the SVD/AK optics are coming from (that is, those that are not the IOR surplus scopes out of Romania)). I don't think they are coming out of Bulgaria.

Ash