Most Potent .30ish Handgun Round

[Timthinker]

Since last week, I have read, and participated in, discussions about .30ish caliber handgun rounds such as the .327 Magnum, .32 Magnum and .30 Carbine. In fact, I have seen more discussions about these small caliber rounds in a few days than in the past few weeks. All these discussions have led me to wonder which of these small bore rounds is the most "potent". So, for the sake of a fair comparison, let us assume all these cartridges are available in Ruger Blackhawk revolvers with barrel lengths of 6 and 1/2 inches. In this format, which round would prove the most accurate and "powerful". My gut feeling is the .30 Carbine would win in accuracy, and it might prevail in the power category also. I would appreciate some thoughtful input from actual owners of these cartridges. Thanks.


Timthinker

[the naked prophet]

7.62x25mm?

The wider/shorter bottlenecked case should provide for more consistency and better accuracy, or so the proponents of the short magnum rifle rounds tell me.

[32 Magnum]

No doubt that the Czech M48 7.62x25mm round used in the CZ-52 pistol and several SMG would be the "most powerful" .30ish handgun rounds, but in keeping with the original concept or caveat of chamberings for a Ruger Blackhawk, I would have to agree on the .30 Carbine round as the "most powerful". Don't know much about the new .327 Magnum, but that may turn out to be a real barn burner, I think it has the potential. When I read about it last week, here, I instantly wanted one. I like the .32 H&R Mag cartridge for fun shooting and have a "couple" revolvers I would consider using for self defense chambered in that round - so a .32 Mag MAGNUM is, to me very intriguing!!!

[Cosmoline]

Didn't Dick Casull experiment with one?

[PTK]

.30-30 out of a T/C pistol. :D

I know, that doesn't count. As for most potent, prevalent, and cheap, I'd go with 7.62x25mm.

[mavracer]

30 carbine would be capable of the most velocity,the 7.62X25 is good but since you said blackhawk (which this animal does exist) a 32/20 from a 6 1/2" blackhawk will do close to 1700 fps with a 90 grn hornady.

[Shawnee]

.30 Herrett from a Contender

[krochus]

I owned a 30 carbine blackhawk and a couple of guns in 7.62x25 the Tokarev round would walk all over the 30 carbine in terms of power and accuracy. After much chronographing I came to the conclusion that the 30 carbine is a surprisingly piss poor performer in a handgun being just slightly more powerful than .32 H&R. In terms of accuracy I suspect that my blackhawk had "issues" as other owners of the same firearm have reported accuracy problems as well.

[Timthinker]

I must confess that I did not consider the old Tokarev round when I began this thread. My intent was to focus upon three cartridges: the .327 Magnum, the .32 Magnum and the .30 Carbine. But, I will accept any of the .30ish rounds for discussion here, although I would prefer to focus upon the three I mentioned.

I doubt Ruger offers its Blackhawk in .32-20, but I would find such an offering tempting. This old round deserves another chance at life in my opinion.


Timthinker

[Harley Quinn]

Try some powder that will work as a hand gun and not in a rifle.

Using the military loads for the rifle, I was at a range in the 80's shooting my little 30 carbine revolver, the range master had a near hemmorage over his steel targets getting blasted and smashed by the 30 carbine round. The thing can be very loud and ugly looks abounded back then. Now it is a baby compared to some of the ones on line.

I have a old 1905 Winchester in 32-20---oops 32 WSL that was rebarrled in 30 carbine, Gunsmith mentioned it was way to powerful for that old rifle (30 Carbine)
Because it is a blow back and does not have locking lugs on the bolt.

If true the 32-20/32WSL either, does not have the ponies of a 30 Carbine in his mind.
;)

[Jim Watson]

Look up the .30 Streaker. A Herrett shortened enough to get in a rechambered .30 Carbine Blackhawk. Careful managment required to handle a bottleneck in a revolver, but when done right, it is fast.

[Scottmkiv]

I've heard rumors about a 10mm cartidge necked down to .30 called .30 Armscor. I haven't seen too much in the way of detail, but it should be a screamer.

[krochus]

[ry some powder that will work as a hand gun and not in a rifle.


Really??? something like H-110 possibly:rolleyes:

you know that magnum handgun powder used in everything from .357 magnum to 500S&W


Just cause the round is loud doesn't mean it's fast. Ever hear of a c-h-r-o-n-y it's this new fangled instrument that tells you how fast your bullets are traveling. It's MUCH more accurate than the human ear for determining velocity :neener:
I have a old 1905 Winchester in 32-20[/QUOTE]

32-20 and the 32WSL loaded in the 05 winchester autoloader are two completely different cartriges

[Harley Quinn]

Hmmm

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_12_47/ai_79586230

Here is some information about the 30 cal Carbine Might help or not.


The .32 WSL is roughly equivalent to the M1 Carbine round, though the two are not interchangeable. Interestingly, the .32 WSL was the basis for what was later adopted as the .30 M1Carbine round.

So does this mean the 32-20 is more powerful than the lowly 30 carbine?
http://www.reloadammo.com/3220.htm

7.62X25 information http://www.makarov.com/tokloaddata.html


;)

[mavracer]

I doubt Ruger offers its Blackhawk in .32-20, but I would find such an offering tempting. This old round deserves another chance at life in my opinion.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=84679534
you think I'd lie,I said the beast exists.I also like the old 32/20 but I can't get over getting a new caliber that won't do anything my .357s won't do.

[Harley Quinn]

Another reloader, much better than I am, I'd think

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/p30carb.html

Mentions this:
Shove the .30 Carbine to full steam ahead and it will leave the .32 Magnum choking on its dust.


;)

[Timthinker]

Mavracer, that particular offering was a limited edition if my facts are correct. I seem to recall Ruger made some of them a few years back, but I doubt they are in production now. That said, it sure is tempting. Thanks for the link.

The reason I am inquiring about .30ish rounds in a Blackhawk is I am tempted to purchase one. Hopefully, this admission will not cost me my membership in the big bore revolver fan club.:D When I move from my current residence in a few months, I would like to buy a smaller caliber single-action revolver with some of the proceeds from that sale. These threads on .30ish caliber revolvers have fueled my lust for such a gun.


Timthinker

[gbran]

Didn't Dick Casull experiment with one?


Dick Casull did have a 1911 "3800" that didn't take off, but it was wicked fast for a 1911. He ran ads in most of the major magazines several years ago.

[mavracer]

Mavracer, that particular offering was a limited edition if my facts are correct. I seem to recall Ruger made some of them a few years back, but I doubt they are in production now. That said, it sure is tempting. Thanks for the link.
I just ment they had made them,water under the bridge.
If you wanted one bad enough the 30 carbine blackhawk could easily be reamed to 32/20 and you could reload with .308 dia bullets.the factory loads with .312 dia. bullets would not hurt the BH either since they're pretty anemic anyway.
nevermind Just checked Gunbroker and man are they proud of 30 carbine blackhawks.

[Harley Quinn]

What part of this don't you folks understand

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/p30carb.html

;)

[woad_yurt]

You said that you'd accept talking about the .30 Tok but would prefer to concentrate on the other three. So, I'll compare. 7.62X25 in a CZ 52 is monster in accuracy and power. Plus, $325 will get you the pistol, a machined firing pin and 1224 rounds of ammo. Wolf makes hollowpoints for it now. I have 2 CZ 52s and they never falter in HP or FMJ. The HP rounds do some crazy damage. This is a guess but .30 Carbine seems like it wouldn't burn quickly enough to live up to its potential in a short barrel. The .32 H&R Mag is weaker and expensive to shoot and the .327 Magnum would probably be expensive (I'm guessing because I googled a little bit bit and didn't find anyone selling it.) See if you can borrow a CZ 52 and shoot it. I totally prefer revolvers and own only one semi-auto, the CZ 52. But, if I could only have one gun, I'd have the CZ and let all the others go. I wish someone would start making new guns in 7.62X25; it's a great round.

[Timthinker]

Woad, I appreciate the recommendation. May I ask about the condition of your CZ for that price? Your description almost seems too good to be true, but this is just a statement of my ignorance about the CZ and the Tokarev round. Thanks again for updating me about its value.


Timthinker

[woad_yurt]

One of the pistols is a straight military issue; it cost $129. They have cast firing pins (!!!) which are somewhat brittle so I replaced it for $18.95 w/a machined one. The gun is great w/a good bore. The other one is a chromed one from Classic Arms which cost $200. That one has really nice Harrington firing pin & trigger kit ($55 at Makarov.com) which took less than ten minutes to swap out. I also replaced a pin with a 50 cent hardened allen bolt. I'm going to spend another $35-$50 or so for some nice sights. Altogether, that'll make the gun cost about around $300, maybe a little more.

The ammo is $119/1224 rounds from Aim Surplus.

If you want to see my chrome one, go to:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3852443#post3852443

These guns are simple and dependable and I've tweaked the chrome one a bit. Taking them down to clean takes less than 60 seconds. And this round is more powerful than most 45 ACPs, except for some +P stuff I've seen, like from Cor-Bon. The TT-33 also shoots this round but folks have said that it jams w/hollowpoints. The CZ 52, I think, is the best bang for my buck I've ever gotten. I've shot 3000 or so rounds through the chrome one without any issues at all. Plus, if you shoot it when it's a little dim outside, the flame comes out almost 2 feet. It's very cool.

I also posted some other pro CZ 52 comments:
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=314981

Get one, guy. You'll be pleased. This pistol reminds me of a Chevy 350. Very cool to begin with but also a great, economical platform for far greater things. .30 Tokarev shoots at around 1500 fps so a 100 yard silhouette target is easy pickings. It's very close to .357 Magnum in performance for a fraction of the price. I hope all of this helps.

In those prices, I forgot to include shipping. Sorry.

2nd edit: Also, a C&R license helped to keep the price low for the military gun.

[karlsgunbunker]

7.62x25mm

+1

[krochus]

What part of this don't you folks understand

http://www.reloadbench.com/cartridges/p30carb.html



The part where we've actually seen the chonograph readings vs parroting some spit shine article written by someone in the business of selling guns.

I don't think I ever chronied a factory 110g load from my blackhawk that went over 1400 fps and the handloads loads listed in the manuals were even more optimistic than that!

Any middle of the road 110 g 357 mag load is all over the 30 carbine by at least 200 fps.

[woad_yurt]

Karlsgunbunker: What's +1 mean?

[mnw42]

I love my CZ52! I get some great looms when people see the bass fly about 20'. I ran som Bulgarian surplus ammo I had over a buddy's chronograph and it was pushing 1600 fps after the barrel got warm!

http://images1.filecloud.com/630216/cz52-rh-sm.jpg

I did have two problems when I bought it. First, the slide wouldn't lock back on the last round. I replaced the magazine catch for five dollars and now it functions fine. The second problem I had, was shoulder separation and that was remedied with a nos CZ barrel from Numerich.

[zxcvbob]

I have a .30 Carbine Ruger Blackhawk, and I've gotten up to 1720 fps with 100 grain bullets with it, using WSF powder; but I abandoned that load because it caused excessive case head expansion (primers fell out after one shot.) I have very little doubt that I could have safely gone a lot higher if I was willing to sacrifice the brass.

I need to work up something similar using Blue Dot. Blue Dot might get to 1700 without ruining the brass...

[Harley Quinn]

Here is another one on the little 7.62x25.
http://www.makarov.com/tokloaddata.html

I'll find you one that is pretty hot for my 357 Sig also or my 10mm then I'll give you some stats on my 400 Corbon. But we aren't discussing them.
We are discussing the 30 carbine rifle round. Out of a pistol. Loaded with the right powder and it is a very good.

We were discussing the 32 mag and 32-20 and 30 carbine. 30 carbine, hands down for what he wants IMHO... He mentioned some thing about a Ruger also as I remember in a 30 cal.

Tidbit for you:

A standard .30 caliber ball round weighs 110 grains (7.1 g) m and has a muzzle velocity of 1,900 ft/s, (580 m/s) giving it 880 foot-pounds (1,190 joules) of energy. By comparison, a .357 Magnum revolver fires the same weight bullet at about 1,300 ft/s (396 m/s) for about 410 foot-pounds (560 J) of energy, though it is important to note that the .357 bullet is larger in diameter (caliber) and is normally an expanding or hollow-point design.

This is a good set of loading for various caliber's:

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_cartridge_reloading_data.htm Your mileage may vary.

[grimjaw]

CZ 52 is monster in accuracy

Disagree with that statement. The one I have doesn't group as well as my Glock 19. Maybe for a $110 handgun it's acceptably accurate, but printing itty bitty groups hasn't been its forte.

jm

[krochus]

A standard .30 caliber ball round weighs 110 grains (7.1 g) m and has a muzzle velocity of 1,900 ft/s, (580 m/s) giving it 880 foot-pounds (1,190 joules) of energy.

in a rifle not a handgun trim that figure back to 1400 fps for a blackhawk

By comparison, a .357 Magnum revolver fires the same weight bullet at about 1,300 ft/s (396 m/s) for about 410 foot-pounds (560 J) of energy,

that would be a seriously anemic 357 load for a 110grn bullet. 1600 fps with that weight is no problem

[eldon519]

Magnum Research makes a .30-30 BFR.