ATF cracking down on conversion cylinders


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Pancho
November 13, 2007, 01:16 PM
I just talked to the owner of Arms to Armor online gun store and he has gotten out of the reproduction cap and ball revolver market due to the fact that the ATF jumped him for selling a cap and ball pistol and a conversion cylinder and shipping them at the same time same package. The ATF said he had to send it to a FFL.
If you've been thinking of converting you better do it soon cause this looks like something that is only going to get worse.

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ArmedBear
November 13, 2007, 01:19 PM
shipping them at the same time same package

Should have known better than to do that, honestly.

I'm no big fan of any bloated Federal LE agency whose job is to snoop around for something to do to justify their budget. But the law is pretty clear that a cartridge handgun has to be shipped to an FFL, even if the cylinder is wrapped in separate tissue paper when you ship it.

I'm not sure you can call this "cracking down on conversion cylinders".

Pancho
November 13, 2007, 01:33 PM
Your right ArmedBear that would seem like just common sense to ship them separate. Never the less we've lost a pretty good supplier.

Novus Collectus
November 13, 2007, 01:55 PM
I agree, it was always a grey area to ship both in the same package or sell them together and so it should have been common sense not too chance fate. I always cringed whenever I saw local gun dealers and dealers at gun shows selling them at the same time (but not while in the gun of course).

....now this thought of mine applies to drop in conversion cylinders. If the handgun frame has to be modified, then I can't imaging the problem because until then the cylinder is just a part to a gun not even a "firearm" yet.

ArmedBear
November 13, 2007, 02:05 PM
I'm a Californian with a legal, recent AR.

Believe me, even those of us who aren't in the biz are used to being a LOT more aware of the laws and how they're enforced than that.

I'm sorry we've lost a good supplier, and I'm sorry it hurt his business. Unfortunately, though, that's been part of the gun biz since 1968.

Sistema1927
November 13, 2007, 03:17 PM
Why was it that we had less violent crime prior to the enacting of the GCA '68? You could buy any firearm via mail order in those days, even as a 12 year old boy.

(Guess what, it isn't the guns that are the problem.)

ArmedBear
November 13, 2007, 04:23 PM
Oh, I never said GCA68 was a good thing, just that anyone who has been a gun dealer any time in recent memory shouldn't be surprised that a cartridge handgun can't be mailed around across state lines like a cap-n-ball, nor that ATF would consider a gun mailed in the same package as a cartridge cylinder that fits right in it to be a cartridge revolver.

DrLaw
November 13, 2007, 10:36 PM
Its them dang-fangeled cat-ridge guns thats spoilin up the wurld fur every one. Why, if'n ya'all jist kept to good ol cap & ball, this wood not be happenin'.

Sure a shootin', thems cat-ridge guns will jist spoil everythin up. They just aint the way Sam'l Colt intended guns to be!

:p:D:rolleyes:


The Doc is out now. :cool:

LAR-15
November 14, 2007, 01:11 PM
Is not the conversion cylinder an unregulated part?

Eric F
November 14, 2007, 06:54 PM
At least in Va you have to do the paperwork for the cylinders fed and state. dude should have known this.:banghead:

Novus Collectus
November 14, 2007, 07:43 PM
At least in Va you have to do the paperwork for the cylinders fed and state. dude should have known this. Last I checked there are no serial numbers on the conversion cylinders. They are parts, not firearms. The feds do not do transfer paperwork for parts unless it is for something like a silencer.
I seriously doubt VA regulates the cylinders.

Eric F
November 14, 2007, 08:58 PM
I have been informed by a couple ffl holders(who I work with) that in by applying said cylinder to a firearm makes that firearm a weapon requiring the said paperwork. The serial number on the bp pistol is used for the fed form unless the cylinder has a serial number. All new purchased bp firearms in va require a state form only. Just what I was told and I have no reason to doubt either source for this information.

Eric F
November 14, 2007, 09:07 PM
Ok hold on I just checked with the guys I work with Va requires them to make paperwork for the feds. Other states may be diffrent.

SAKOHUNTER
November 14, 2007, 09:18 PM
It wouldn't surprise me that one day the ATF will require that they have serial #'s and be transfered in all states.

Until then it is a convenient loophole in some states.

Eric F
November 14, 2007, 09:21 PM
They will most likely do the thing like they do with class 3 stuff. For example once an ar pistol is converted to a rifle configuration it can never be a pistol again............once your bp pistol becomes a cartrage gun it requires permanet paperwork.

Novus Collectus
November 14, 2007, 10:40 PM
I have been informed by a couple ffl holders(who I work with) that in by applying said cylinder to a firearm makes that firearm a weapon requiring the said paperwork. The serial number on the bp pistol is used for the fed form unless the cylinder has a serial number. All new purchased bp firearms in va require a state form only. Just what I was told and I have no reason to doubt either source for this information. They will most likely do the thing like they do with class 3 stuff. For example once an ar pistol is converted to a rifle configuration it can never be a pistol again............once your bp pistol becomes a cartrage gun it requires permanet paperwork.You are mixing different issues here. The cylinders are not the firearms, but when put into a cap and ball frame the frame becomes a "firearm" subject to transer regulations.
There is nothing in federal law that says there has to be a serial number unless it was to be transferred because you are allowed to make your own non-NFA firearms for personal use. If you never sell it to someone else, no paperwork is required for the frame. If you wanted to, if you were a licensed manufacturer, you could sell it, but you would have to have a serial number on it and it can be any number you so desire. At that point it will need paperwork.

If you use a drop in cylinder in a cap and ball revolver and you did not modify the frame whatsoever, then if you were to remove the drop in cylinder it is no longer a "firearm" covered under the Gun Control Act (GCA) because it is once again an "antique".
However, if you modify the frame like to file away a spot and add a loading gate for a cylinder which is not drop in cylinder for instance (like with a Kirst conversion), then the "antique" is not longer an "antique" and is a firearm under the GCA. What that means is that if you wanted to sell it or transfer it to someone else, it is restricted and regulated with or without the cylinder still in it in this particular case.

So long story short, you as a citizen in VA can make your own modern handgun and you do not need paperwork unless you were to sell it.
If you did not alter the gun and used a drop in cylinder, then you can sell the frame without the drop in cylinder as an antique and without paperwork.
Selling the handgun with drop in conversion cylinder not in it, but in the same package is the grey area.

(Note: I am not a lawyer)

Jim K
November 14, 2007, 10:58 PM
I hate to say this, but I suspect it is only a matter of time until federal law or state laws either ban the sale of those cylinders or require they be treated like revolver frames (serial number, 4473, the works). Or else bring all percussion revolvers, except maybe true antiques, under the same laws as cartridge revolvers.

The horrible fact is that those cylinders are often a way by which people who are underage or have criminal records are able to obtain a cartridge handgun with no problem. Just buy a percussion revolver, buy a conversion cylinder, and have fun, whatever your definition of fun may be. I doubt that they are a big crime problem, but they are a weak point and so subject to attack by the antis. The "don't give a damn" attitude by the sellers doesn't help a bit.

Jim

LAR-15
November 14, 2007, 11:11 PM
I'm sending this concern to Chuck Schumer as I post.

dstorm1911
November 15, 2007, 12:20 AM
I've never seen the point of goin to all the trouble of a conversion cyl. myself, if I wanna use a cartridge gun then I'll just get out the 75 Remmy or onea the 73 colts.......... I do the cap and ball guns because I enjoy Cap and ball guns..... its just too much like folks tryin to turn SKS rifles into AK rifles by addin a bunch of cr#p to em and in the end they still aren't "right" if ya want a cartridge gun buy a cartridge gun if ya want a C&B but wanna swap cyl.s then get an 1858 with extra cylinders already loaded and capped just as much risk dropping a loaded conversion cyl as dropping a loaded/capped percussion cyl. O.K I'm done now an will climb down...... uhhh who's soap box is this anyhow... ;)


just my opinion though so we all know how much its worth

mykeal
November 15, 2007, 08:03 AM
Jim Keenan said: The horrible fact is that those cylinders are often a way by which people who are underage or have criminal records are able to obtain a cartridge handgun with no problem.

Sorry, but I just don't believe that's correct; certainly not the "often" part.

The real fact is that the black market in stolen and other illegal firearms is much, much bigger than turning percussion revolvers into cartridge revolvers.

I'm not saying it's not an issue at all, or that the authorities are going to ignore it, just that your use of the word 'often' is not justified. I think 'rarely' is more appropriate.

sundance44s
November 15, 2007, 08:33 AM
The conversion cylinder set up is so expencive , we uasually end up with a cap and ball pistol we have 500 bucks in ..I don`t think the criminal element will be in a rush to buy these when their auto loaders are so easy to get for a lot less money .
Have you ever tried to find a 1858 Remmie with conversion cylinder CHEAP !
What ever happens ...I have mine and enjoy them much more than I do shooting my 1873 colt that doesn`t fit my hand....and they aren`t a modern invention ..Remington sold these in the 1800`s ..

Striker
November 15, 2007, 08:59 AM
I have been informed by a couple ffl holders(who I work with) that in by applying said cylinder to a firearm makes that firearm a weapon requiring the said paperwork. The serial number on the bp pistol is used for the fed form unless the cylinder has a serial number. All new purchased bp firearms in va require a state form only. Just what I was told and I have no reason to doubt either source for this information.



As of now, neither muzzleloading nor cap and ball pistols require the the VA form or the Fed 4473 for purchase.

Factory cartridge conversions cap and ball pistols do, as they are treated as regular firearms. If an individual buys a cap and ball pistol and a cartridge conversion cylinder at the same time, I would process it as regular firearm. If he buys the cap and ball pistol first and later buys the conversion cylinder (or vice versa) then no paperwork is required.

Some muzzle loading long guns require paperwork regardless, since you can convert them to cartridge firearms buy switching barrels. (TC's and NEF/H&Rs for example).

I can't explain the logic of the different rules, but then I don't have to, I only have to comply.

Shureshot
November 15, 2007, 09:19 AM
Ah keeps a tellin' ya

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Its them dang-fangeled cat-ridge guns thats spoilin up the wurld fur every one. Why, if'n ya'all jist kept to good ol cap & ball, this wood not be happenin'.

Sure a shootin', thems cat-ridge guns will jist spoil everythin up. They just aint the way Sam'l Colt intended guns to be!

Yaaaaahhoooo! That's tellin 'em, pardner!

Semper Fi!

Novus Collectus
November 15, 2007, 03:19 PM
Some muzzle loading long guns require paperwork regardless, since you can convert them to cartridge firearms buy switching barrels. (TC's and NEF/H&Rs for example).

I can't explain the logic of the different rules, but then I don't have to, I only have to comply. This is how I understand it. SInce the same manufacturer makes the cartridge firing barrels for the TCs, and since it is not a replica of an antique frame, and since the frame was designed to use cartridge firing barrels from the inception, the frame is a "firearm" and not an "antique".
The same applies to a shotgun or rifle someone converts to a muzzleloader, it is still a firearm (subject to transfer regs and felon/non-resident alien possession) if the barrels can still be interchanged.
It takes a combination of the above I believe to qualify it as a "firearm" under the GCA. since "antique" replica cap and ball revolvers are not considered "firearms" under the GCA despite being able to take conversion cynilnders.

This is from the ATF: As defined in 18 U.S.C. § 921(a)(16) the term “antique firearm” means—
…(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion
cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; or
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such replica --
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or conventional
centerfire fixed ammunition, or [The replica of pre-1898 antique cap and ball revolvers are not designed to use fixed ammunition, but the TC is]
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition which
is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is not
readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol,
which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute, and which
cannot use fixed ammunition. For purposes of this subparagraph, the term
'antique firearm' shall not include any weapon which incorporates a firearm
frame or receiver, any firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading
weapon, or any muzzle loading weapon, which can be readily converted to fire
fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any
combination thereof. [Once again, the TC is designed to use either and is ALSO readily converted by the replacements of some parts]
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/072205antiquefirearm.pdf

So as I understand it, if someone made a new type of cap and ball revolver that is not a replica of an antique and someone came along selling conversion cylinders, then it is a grey area, but since cap and ball replicas like an 1858 Remington are not designed to fire fixed ammo, or they are replicas of guns that weren't, then it does not matter if someone sells a part for them to convert to fire fixed ammo (until someone tries to sell one with the conversion cylinder in it or with it).

ArmedBear
November 15, 2007, 03:30 PM
The horrible fact is that those cylinders are often a way by which people who are underage or have criminal records are able to obtain a cartridge handgun with no problem.

Uh, a bulky, low-velocity, slow-firing black powder or low-power "cowboy" load cartridge revolver that can't safely fire common cartridges...

A cap & ball Remmie with a couple of extra cylinders would perform just as well and reload MUCH faster.

I don't think anyone's too worried about these things.

The ATF is all about the "letter of the law", though. It's a mentality that few people outside such an agency can really relate to.

dstorm1911
November 16, 2007, 12:23 AM
Striker, your forgetting that just "doing the paperwork" isn't valid either as once it becomes a "firearm" the BATF excise tax must also be paid..... are you going to also pay or collect the excise tax? but then unless ya hold an 07 manufactures license ya now have noway to pay that tax to the BATF as they will only accept payments from an 07 licensed manufacturer...... the only one who can LEGALLY install a conversion cyl. into a non-firearm in essence "manufactuering" a new firearm (even if the C&B is an old used gun it becomes a NEW firearm when that cyl. gets installed) legally as far as the BATF is concerned is #1 a legally licensed 07 Manufacturer who will pay ecxise tax or #2 a private unlicensed person strictly for their own personal use etc... Anyone else does so and they have commited a felony in that they are then acting as an unlicensed manufacturer. The BATF Takes their taxes very seriously....... I'm still trying to figure out how they went from being tax collectors to being law enforcement AND a law enforcent agency capable of bypassing the voters to add their own laws whenever they wish.......

Technically not even a gunsmith can legally install the conversion unless they are also (a seperate license is required) an 07 manufacturer and pays the excise tax accordingly

I've held these licenses as well as a class2 for the last 10 years......

JohnKSa
November 16, 2007, 01:54 AM
Uh, a bulky, low-velocity, slow-firing black powder or low-power "cowboy" load cartridge revolver that can't safely fire common cartridges...Ok, I'll bite. Why DO people pay the premium to buy a Cap&Ball revolver PLUS a conversion cylinder?

They could buy JUST the Cap&Ball if shooting BP is their goal and have much cheaper and probably more functional firearm as you point out.

Or if shooting cartridges is their goal they could buy a decent modern revolver cheaper and definitely have a much more functional firearm. I'll bet a person could poke around awhile and buy a decent used SA revolver for very close to the cost of a new conversion cylinder by itself.

So who's buying these cylinders and why?

jojosdad
November 16, 2007, 02:16 AM
I bought one for my ROA because sometimes I feel like shooting C&B and sometimes feel like shooting cartridges.

dstorm1911
November 16, 2007, 02:19 AM
John, yep and my 1875 Remmy has the exact same grip and balance of my 1858 remmy replicas most folks can't readily tell the difference, when I wanna go cartridges I use the 75 for Cap&ball onea the 58s.....

Pancho
November 16, 2007, 02:27 AM
Stiker, now that you mention it I bought a 50 Cal. NEF when they first came out at Gander Mountain and was surprised to be background checked and had to fill out the papers. Due to the manufacturer's statement that some time in the future they would be supply centerfire barrels for the gun. That was 4years ago and the NEF is still dragging their heels about it. The last I heard about the company would need the owner to ship the reciever back to have individual barrel fitted to your reciever. This was in Ohio

JohnKSa
November 16, 2007, 03:07 AM
I bought one for my ROA because sometimes I feel like shooting C&B and sometimes feel like shooting cartridges.You could have bought another gun to shoot cartridges out of for what you paid. And it would have been a lot easier to load.

Guess it's the engineer in me, but even if I had money to burn it would be a LONG time before I got around to buying a conversion cylinder for my ROA. Unless of course I couldn't get my hands on a cartridge firing revolver any other way...

Striker
November 16, 2007, 09:29 AM
dstorm,

Good points, and frankly one not considered when I made the comment "If an individual buys a cap and ball pistol and a cartridge conversion cylinder at the same time, I would process it as regular firearm."

So, no sales of both at the same time. This will avoid any issues.

stevelyn
November 16, 2007, 12:03 PM
Another example of the sturmtruppen of the waffen BATFEces:barf: arbitrarily making $^!t up as they go along.

silverlance
November 16, 2007, 12:19 PM
Just buy a percussion revolver, buy a conversion cylinder, and have fun, whatever your definition of fun may be.

Conversion cylinders are not cheap - anywhere from $200-350.
The BP gun itself is between $200-$350 as well.

So at the end of this, you have spent $400-700 for a smoothbore (iirc most bps are smooth) handgun with all the benefits of 19th century ergonomics capable of firing up to six cowboy downloaded .45LC cartridges (or 5 if you believe that the hammer ought to sit on an empty chamber).

to load or unload that firearm, you need to essentially field strip the gun.

I seriously doubt any criminally minded person is going to go this route simply to obtain a weapon with which to engage in criminal activity. I can ostensibly see someone using a BP gun for crime, but I don't see them going the extra mile just so their cylinder can have brass in it.

Now where this does come into play is that a person prohibited for some BS reason like public urination can have a gun with which to defend himself at home. I don't see anything wrong with that. Six (or five) shots is enough to protect yourself with if you are already behind a locked door.

jojosdad
November 16, 2007, 12:29 PM
You could have bought another gun to shoot cartridges out of for what you paid.
I paid $200 for a used cylinder. If I could have found an old model Vaquero in 45 Colt I would have bought it in a heartbeat. (BTW - if you know of one at that price please let me know). I also did it because I wanted to, and the gun is fun to shoot.

Pancho
November 16, 2007, 12:47 PM
It seems that the criminal element get their shooting skills from TV such as holding a pistol sideways and spraying the whole clip all over the street.
You never see a thug do his thing on TV with a C&B revolver thank God.

pohill
November 16, 2007, 01:14 PM
If anyone is interested, the Kittery Trading Post (Maine) has (or had recently) a used R&D drop-in cylinder for an 1860 .44 for $170.00. From what I understand, that is a good price. If not, educate me.

SWC Bonfire
November 16, 2007, 01:38 PM
Can any of you actually think of an instance where a converted BP revolver was used in a crime? If so, was it even fired?

I've never heard of a single instance but my exposure to such things is limited.

Novus Collectus
November 16, 2007, 02:03 PM
Ok, I'll bite. Why DO people pay the premium to buy a Cap&Ball revolver PLUS a conversion cylinder?

They could buy JUST the Cap&Ball if shooting BP is their goal and have much cheaper and probably more functional firearm as you point out.

Or if shooting cartridges is their goal they could buy a decent modern revolver cheaper and definitely have a much more functional firearm. I'll bet a person could poke around awhile and buy a decent used SA revolver for very close to the cost of a new conversion cylinder by itself.

So who's buying these cylinders and why?I can speak for myself....I lived in MD....'nuff said.

But to add to that anyway, I bought my revolver before the conversion cylinders were available and at the time they became available the conversion cylinder was not just a novelty, but also probably cheaper than buying a replica cartridge revolver (in MD not only are some revolvers not legal to be sold here because of the "handgun roster", but they are also more expensive than many other parts of the country).
Also, about the MD thing, the state of MD asks some very personal questions on their application form to buy a handgun and all firearms that the state regulates sold here gets recorded into a database forever. They have a list of all Marylanders that ever bought a handgun or regulated rifle/shotgun from a MD dealer.....I did not want to be on that list.
I have a C&R license and I have bought many handguns with it and even though there is a record of my purchase somewhere and the state knows I have a license, there is at least no central database of what guns I own.

And no, I am not being paranoid about the database. As just one example when we had the Beltway sniper shootings, numerous AR15 owners in that area recieved unnanounced visits from the State Police and FBI agents wanting to test fire their rifles. They got the names from that database.

Another advanage of a conversion cylinder is they are tough. When my cheap Pietta replica gives out, I can buy another one and slip the same cylinder in it. It has already happened once.

ArmedBear
November 16, 2007, 02:54 PM
(iirc most bps are smooth)

What? No they're not.

My Uberti 58 Remmie replica shoots about as well as a modern revolver. Accurate enough to really surprise people who think the old guns must shoot poorly, and that's just loading from an old-style flask where you hold your finger over the spout to roughly measure the load.

When I said, "bulky", I should have noted that I like the ergonomics. It's just that the sucker is about 14" long, not particularly concealable unless you're one big muchacho and it's a very cold Winter.

I don't think a 7.5" Blackhawk is a common gun used by criminals, either.

People use them for various things, usually with some historical flavor, like CAS or wild west show gunfight reenactments. Some of them even have a rear cover plate that resembles the cap-n-ball cylinder rear. That makes them useful for Civil War reenactors who just want to drop in some blanks rather than carrying powder in the field.

If, however, you just want a cartridge single action, the matte finish Uberti SAA clone is a fine gun. I put in a set of Wolffs, and for under 300 bucks brand new including springs, I have a great shooting single action that has a loading gate. For the price of a full DIY Remmie conversion (cylinder and ejector; you have to machine it and touch up the finish yourself), you can buy a nice 1875 replica and have both.

Clearly, the cylinders are selling to people who want something other than a cheap single action.:)

Clint Eastwood did a lot to shove aside the old Hollywood image, where everyone in the world suddenly bought a Colt SAA in 1873, the moment they came out, along with the Winchester 1892. Hell, in some of old Hollywood's depictions of the 1850s, everyone had an 1873 and an 1892.

Since Eastwood's movies, when you see a western, you'll see a variety of guns, like top-breaks, cartridge conversions, cap-n-ball guns, Remmies, etc. Reenactors have followed suit, and want something more interesting and authentic than an 1873 Colt in every holster.

Shotgun Willy
November 16, 2007, 03:08 PM
Well, I lucked out and bought a nice Euroarms 1858 with a conversion cylinder for $225 from a nice man on the net. I think he even frequents here. If this hadn't happened I'd likely have never had the money for a conversion cylinder. Most of my shooting is with the C&B cylinder but I like the ability to drop a loaded cylinder in and have a loaded firearm in less than 30 seconds. With small children at home I feel pretty safe with this setup.

dstorm1911
November 16, 2007, 03:43 PM
SWC, your missing the point partner its not about if they have been used in a crime.... its about taxes and the BATF wants to be paid their excise taxes for anything they can classify as a firearm in this case that means any cartridge fireing gun........ 85% of the laws regarding firearms have nothing at all to do with criminal use its about $$$ and if ya don't pay em their taxes they will lock ya up...

Shotgun, ya can drop a loaded percusion cyl. in the 58 in the exact same amount of time ;)

ArmedBear
November 16, 2007, 03:47 PM
dstorm1911's got it right.

Cap and ball revolvers are exempt from the tax, and BATFE's jurisdiction. (F Troop is fundamentally a tax-collecting agency.)

Cartridge revolvers are not. So if it can be defined as a cartridge revolver, they want their money, just like the IRS wants their money if there's something they can legally define as "income".

Novus Collectus
November 16, 2007, 04:00 PM
SWC, your missing the point partner its not about if they have been used in a crime.... its about taxes and the BATF wants to be paid their excise taxes for anything they can classify as a firearm in this case that means any cartridge fireing gun........ 85% of the laws regarding firearms have nothing at all to do with criminal use its about $$$ and if ya don't pay em their taxes they will lock ya up...They get revenue through taxes now by the sale of replica cap and ball guns. For the imported guns there is an import tax and on the ones made here the corportions pay an income tax. If they start taxing and regulating cap and ball revolvers or conversion cylinders, then the sales will drop and taxes they lose from import and income tax probably will offset the revenue from the new tax.

ArmedBear
November 16, 2007, 04:05 PM
For the imported guns there is an import tax and on the ones made here the corportions pay an income tax

"They" don't get the taxes.

BATFE's job is to collect taxes on Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Income taxes (IRS) and tariffs (CBP) are not their concern, either way.

That's how bureaucracy works. Hell, that's how the world works.

Novus Collectus
November 16, 2007, 04:12 PM
"They" don't get the taxes.

BATFE's job is to collect taxes on Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives. Income taxes (IRS) and tariffs (CBP) are not their concern, either way. "They" don't collect those taxes, but they do "get" the taxes. It is all the same government and the only reason they enforced collection of taxes is because they were a branch of the Treasury Department.

They can try to tax something to justify the existence or the growth of their administration, but they are subject to Congressional oversight. Why would they do something that can have consequences and incur the wrath of a senate committee?

Pancho
November 16, 2007, 04:27 PM
ArmedBear, I'm tempted to start a new thread and call it 'know too much about firearms and pissed about most western movies'. It is rare to see an accurate movie when it comes to time and the firearms available. I can count on one hand the movies that are not blatantly incorrect about the firearms.

ArmedBear
November 16, 2007, 04:27 PM
Democrat-controlled Senate committees don't look at "discredited" things like "supply and demand", which they consider to be a myth promulgated by Ronald Reagan when he stole the country from the noble and great Jimmy Carter with his lies.

In the Senate, taxes have no impact on the demand for a good, or the amount someone will work. If a software engineer works 80 hours per week and earns $120K, you can take $90K from him in taxes and he will still happily work just as hard.

ArmedBear
November 16, 2007, 04:29 PM
ArmedBear, I'm tempted to start a new thread and call it 'know too much about firearms and pissed about most western movies'. It is rare to see an accurate movie when it comes to time and the firearms available. I can count on one hand the movies that are not blatantly incorrect about the firearms.

LOL

Do it! Start the thread!

Deadwood did pretty well, and it was a TV series. Of course David Milch is one anal-retentive perfectionist, but I like that in a writer/producer, especially when he's dealing with historical material.:)

JohnKSa
November 16, 2007, 09:44 PM
I paid $200 for a used cylinder. If I could have found an old model Vaquero in 45 Colt I would have bought it in a heartbeat. (BTW - if you know of one at that price please let me know).Yup, a used cylinder is bound to be a bit cheaper. However, most of the places I look sell the ROA conversion cylinders for $240 to $320 (depending on the finish & other options) before shipping--you can certainly buy a complete .45LC revolver in that price range, here's one described as LNIB that went for $280 shipped on THR earlier this year.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=3059402#post3059402

dstorm1911
November 16, 2007, 10:45 PM
Novus....... sales drop that means fewer firearms in civilian hands....... Aside from holding an 01, 02, 07 I'm also a licensed importer and Gunsmith... the latest thing for the BATF is to not approve form 6s (needed in order to import ANYTHING fiream related) for surplus Ammunition high priced commercial ammo is fine they'll approve that but in the past years surplus guns and ammo is like pulling teeth....... why? because while attempts to ban firearms has not worked out if ya raise the taxes on them and their paraphenial then ya reduce the number of enthusiast in the sport of shooting across the board, now if ya elliminate low price surplus ammunition ya reduce the number of enthusiast buying and shooting milsurps.......... after say 10 years all those who fell outa the shooting sports simply because it was too expensive will also no longer watching the bills going to the whitehouse... they are busy on the toy train collecting forums instead...... result ; fewer to oppose bills chipping away at the second amendment....

Or did ya think the BATF actually care about gun owners having plenty of guns? They care if dealers go under? ya know all them 4473s ya've ever filled out? well guess what partner if the dealers who collected those 4473s go outa business then the BATF gets ALL of their paperwork....... ALL of it, lost revenue from taxes?? I guess ya haven't noticed that the BATF doesn't need those taxes as they are funded via the much larger pool of taxes we all pay their budget isn't dependant upon how many taxes they collect they could care less their job in the 21st century is to reduce the number of shooting enthusiast , they make nothing on the sale of accesaries etc... like a conversion cyl. alone however if it were installed by an 07 then they can call it a new firearm as its now a cartridge gun.... now its manufacture can be taxed unless the cyl is installed by the non-licensed owner as he can legally "make" firearms for his own use without having to pay excise tax provided the "new" firearm is not made for the purpose of sale , everyone else........ they gotta get their tax


DEPARTMENT OF THE TREASURY

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms

27 CFR Part 53

[T.D. ATF-404; Ref: Notice No. 836]
RIN 1512-AB49


Firearms and Ammunition Excise Taxes, Parts and Accessories (97R-
1457P)

AGENCY: Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF), Department of
the Treasury.

ACTION: Final rule, Treasury decision.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------

SUMMARY: This final rule amends regulations relating to the
manufacturers excise tax on firearms and ammunition. Under 26 U.S.C.
4181, a tax is imposed on the sale by the manufacturer, importer or
producer of firearms, shells, and cartridges. The tax is 10 percent of
the sale price for pistols and revolvers, 11 percent for firearms
(other than pistols and revolvers), and 11 percent for shells and
cartridges. Current regulations provide that no tax is imposed by
section 4181 on the sale of parts or accessories of firearms, pistols,
revolvers, shells, and cartridges when sold separately or when sold
with a complete firearm. This final rule amends the regulations to
clarify which parts and accessories must be included in the sale price
when calculating the tax on firearms.

DATES: Effective November 30, 1998.

Jim K
November 16, 2007, 10:46 PM
Let me see, now. The U.S. pays out over 400 billion dollars on interest alone each year. The National debt is over 9 trillion dollars. And you guys seriously believe BATFE is going after the excise tax on a few thousand conversion cylinders in order to finance the government? Nonsense!

Their reasons are simple enough. They are charged with enforcing the law Congress wrote, and sworn to do just that. Fixed cartridge guns are regulated; separate loading guns are not. If the latter is changed to the former, it becomes a regulated firearm, and under BATFE's jurisdiction.

I did say those cylinders were "often" used by people who could not legally buy a cartridge revolver. That is not true in regard to actual criminals, who can easily get better guns, but it is true of juveniles who can order both the percussion revolver and the cylinder by mail, no questions asked.

Those who reject the idea that such a thing could be a wedge issue should review the origins of the Gun Control Act of 1968, which began as a ban on mail-order sales of handguns, primarily for racist reasons, and grew as domestic firearms manufacturers added military surplus to the ban (Winchester's lawyers wrote part of the law). But it was the "juvenile delinquents are getting guns" theme that got the bill started.

Jim

Novus Collectus
November 16, 2007, 10:53 PM
Aside from holding an 01, 02, 07 I'm also a licensed importer and Gunsmith Impressive!
I still disagree with you, but you obviously have credentials.

Novus Collectus
November 16, 2007, 10:59 PM
Let me see, now. The U.S. pays out over 400 billion dollars on interest alone each year. The National debt is over 9 trillion dollars. And you guys seriously believe BATFE is going after the excise tax on a few thousand conversion cylinders in order to finance the government? Nonsense! I agree.

I did say those cylinders were "often" used by people who could not legally buy a cartridge revolver. That is not true in regard to actual criminals, who can easily get better guns, but it is true of juveniles who can order both the percussion revolver and the cylinder by mail, no questions asked.I disagree. There are not that many juveniles that even know about the exceptions, and the number is even fewer when one accounts for their usually not being able to afford such a gun and conversion cylinder at that age.
Also, people under 21 cannot easily buy .45 Long Colt or .38 Special, so that too is a deterring factor.

JohnKSa
November 16, 2007, 11:16 PM
I disagree. There are not that many juveniles that even know about the exceptions, and the number is even fewer when one accounts for their usually not being able to afford such a gun and conversion cylinder at that age.
Also, people under 21 cannot easily buy .45 Long Colt or .38 Special, so that too is a deterring factor.Which gets us back to my question.

Just who IS buying these items to shoot .45LC when they could buy a complete revolver to shoot .45LC for the same price--and WHY?

I can see buying one if you get a really good deal on a used one, but SOMEONE (a lot of someones actually) is buying them new or there wouldn't be good deals to be had on used ones.

Is the gee whiz factor of being able to shoot cartridges in a BP revolver really so huge that people are willing to pony up more than the price of a cartridge revolver to buy a complicated and unwieldy system like these conversion cylinders? And that makes up the majority of sales?

Novus Collectus
November 17, 2007, 12:28 AM
Which gets us back to my question.

Just who IS buying these items to shoot .45LC when they could buy a complete revolver to shoot .45LC for the same price--and WHY?

I can see buying one if you get a good deal on a used one, but SOMEONE (a lot of someones actually) is buying them new or there wouldn't be good deals to be had on used ones.

Is the gee whiz factor of being able to shoot cartridges in a BP revolver really so huge that people are willing to pony up more than the price of a cartridge revolver to buy a complicated and unwieldy system like these conversion cylinders? And that makes up the majority of sales? Please go back and look at my post describing why I bought mine. My reasons were three fold and I am sure there are many people out there which have at least one of the reasons in common and even more with legitimiate reasons of their own. Assuming a bunch of juveniles would expend an entire weeks pay of a full time job just for a cylinder when they can be just as happy with a cap and ball cylindered revolver alone or buy an illegal modern pistol for about the same price is no where near as likely IMO.
As others have pointed out, if one wanted to have a gun that would shoot many rounds, then they would just buy three or four cap and ball cylinders and load them for the same price as one drop in conversion cylinder.

And yes, the gee whiz factor of being able to shoot cartridges out of a cap and ball revolver really is a reason for some people with disposable income to buy one of the cynlinders. I have actually bought guns myself that I never even thought I would fire or not fire much because of the gee whiz factor. I bought a Khyber pass Enfield that is nothing but a wall hanger for instance just because of its gee whiz factor.

mykeal
November 17, 2007, 12:36 AM
Yup, a used cylinder is bound to be a bit cheaper. However, most of the places I look sell the ROA conversion cylinders for $240 to $320 (depending on the finish & other options) before shipping--you can certainly buy a complete .45LC revolver in that price range....

Yes, you can buy a complete .45LC revolver for $240 to $320. But it isn't a Ruger Old Army. Which matters a great deal.

JohnKSa
November 17, 2007, 01:03 AM
But it isn't a Ruger Old Army. Which matters a great deal.There are conversion cylinders for other revolvers too. This isn't just about ROAs.And yes, the gee whiz factor of being able to shoot cartridges out of a cap and ball revolver really is a reason for some people with disposable income to buy one of the cynlinders.Yes, I believe that--see my emphasis added. But that was only half my question. The rest was: "And that makes up the majority of sales?"

I have no doubt that SOME people buy these for the gee whiz factor. I don't believe that is the reason for most of these purchases.

BTW, I've been focusing on the cost of JUST the cylinder. Remember that this thread actually began with an incident involving sales of the cylinders AND the revolvers at the same time. Go browse Midway Arms. They have a neat feature that shows you other things that customers purchased along with a particular item. Click on any cap & ball revolver and you'll find that the people buying the revolvers are often buying the conversion cylinders along with them. By the time you add THAT cost up you're definitely in the price range of a nice .45LC revolver. Yes, mykeal, even one as nice as a Ruger Old Army. ;)

Novus Collectus
November 17, 2007, 01:32 AM
Yes, I believe that--see my emphasis added. But that was only half my question. The rest was: "And that makes up the majority of sales?"

I have no doubt that SOME people buy these for the gee whiz factor. I don't believe that is the reason for most of these purchases. As I have repeatedly stated, there are numerous legitimate reasons why and I listed at least three with the gee whiz factor being just one of them.
But let's face it, the novelty aspect and advertising coercing people to buy stuff out of a curiousity or because of a "gee whiz, cool gismo" factor is a powerful one and a HUGE marketting force. THink about it, just how many Ronco devices have been sold to people that don't need one just because it was well advertised, well talked about by word of mouth or simply cool and novel.
Remember the pet rocks? How many people paid money for a friggen rock fer cryin' out loud!!

Yes, I believe that--see my emphasis added. But that was only half my question. The rest was: "And that makes up the majority of sales?"

I have no doubt that SOME people buy these for the gee whiz factor. I don't believe that is the reason for most of these purchases. And I disagree especially because I am one of those people that bought it for that reason among others.

People buy guns or gun accessories for the gee whiz factor all the time. I am willing to bet a huge portion of C&R sales are for just the same reason.

Asking why people would spend more money on a conversion cylinder when there are real guns they can buy is like asking why someone buys two of the same firearm or a second gun that is almost the same as the first but with just a slight modification.
It is their money and they can do what they want with it. It happens a lot and that is probably where the bulk of the conversion sales go.

BTW, I've been focusing on the cost of JUST the cylinder. Remember that this thread actually began with an incident involving sales of the cylinders AND the revolvers at the same time. Go browse Midway Arms. They have a neat feature that shows you other things that customers purchased along with a particular item. Click on any cap & ball revolver and you'll find that the people buying the revolvers are often buying the conversion cylinders along with them. By the time you add THAT cost up you're definitely in the price range of a nice .45LC revolver. Yes, mykeal, even one as nice as a Ruger Old Army. As I have also said before there are other reasons why some people go this route. Some people added a few other reasons.
Some people like firing cap and ball sometimes, and cartridges at other times.
Some people are law abiding, but just don't like the idea of the government knowing their business so avoid buying an actual handgun.
Some people live in states with intrusive gun control laws (like mine) and want a legal way around them (like the seven day waiting period and such).
Some people just simply like the novelty and buy both at the same time.

Some plus some plus some plus some plus some adds up.

Novus Collectus
November 17, 2007, 01:48 AM
Oh, and as another example, when I bought my Nagant revolver I also bought the .32 ACP conversion cylinder for it even though I could have bought a brand new .32 Cobra Arms or a used Lorcin semi auto gun for the same price or for even less. I see this as no different.

JohnKSa
November 17, 2007, 01:51 AM
And I disagree especially because I am one of those people that bought it for that reason among others.Which puts us at a bit of an impasse. Especially because I am one of those people who would NOT buy it for that reason. ;)

I also think that perhaps you're over-emphasizing the "gee-whiz factor" reason for your purchase a bit given your lengthy explanation of the legal implications of purchasing a cartridge handgun in MD and how you've managed to keep your cartridge handgun purchases from the state thus far. That, IMO, gets more to the heart of this issue and I find it a little amusing that you protest that people don't buy conversion cylinders to circumvent certain legal issues when you admit that is precisely one of the reasons you did so (the first reason you mentioned in point of fact).

Novus Collectus
November 17, 2007, 02:12 AM
I also think that perhaps you're over-emphasizing the "gee-whiz factor" reason for your purchase a bit given your lengthy explanation of the legal implications of purchasing a cartridge handgun in MD and how you've managed to keep your cartridge handgun purchases from the state thus far. That, IMO, gets more to the heart of this issue and I find it a little amusing that you protest so much that people don't buy conversion cylinders to circumvent certain legal issues when you admit that is precisely one of the reasons you did so (the first reason you mentioned in point of fact). Yes, yes, yes, it is one of the legitimate reasons of avoding some processes required in the handgun laws by purchasing a conversion cylinder along with a cap and ball revolver I mentioned and pointed out! A large number of lawful gun owners simply don't like the government knowing they have guns and some just don't want to put up with the state processes.
I circumvented no law, I simply avoided a legal process that would come with buying a cartridge gun I had no desire to confront and there are some of the conversion cylinder purchasers that do so with the exact same legitimate purpose as I.

YOu are not just dismissing the gee whiz factor and minimizing it, you are also apparently not recognizing the myriad of other legitimate reasons people would buy a cap and ball revolver as well as the conversion cylinder to go along with it.

But even if 18 year olds are converting their cap and ball revolvers as you are seeming to imply is rampant, then in many states it is perfectly legal for them to do so. However, as stated before, they will have a hell of a time legally buying the handgun ammo for it. If a juvenile is willing to go through the trouble of getting someone else to buy ammo for them illegally, or to buy ammo illegally on the street, then chances are they already had a source for an illegal handgun and didn't need to buy a more expensive and primitive handgun system.
Simply put, it has to be rare for criminals or juveniles to be purchasing these guns as a way around the federal handgun laws or in attempt to do so getting away with a violation of the law.

Oh, and I thought of another reason some people could buy the replica guns and the conversion cylinders. Some people don't live anywhere near an FFL and since they cannot order a handgun from out of state, but they can order conversion cylinders, cap and ball revolvers and ammunition in the mail, this way is convenient for them.

dstorm1911
November 17, 2007, 02:45 AM
MYKEAL, Ruger Blackhawk............ same gun in cartridge form, thats what the Ruger old Army started as....... I screwed up a couple weeks ago and passed a couple Super blackhawk 44s a local shop had at $250 ea off to a friend then the next day decided to go back and buy em....... wouldn't ya know he actually went straight to the shop after I called him and bought em!!

JohnKSa
November 17, 2007, 02:53 AM
I circumvented no lawI agree and I was careful not to say that you did. However, you did legally skirt the legal issue of having MD apprised of a handgun purchase you made. I didn't mean to imply that you were breaking or circumventing the law.But even if 18 year olds are converting their cap and ball revolvers as you are seeming to imply is rampant...Well, I didn't mean to say imply that those under 21 are the main purchasers--but I do believe that the majority of people who buy them are doing so because they can't or don't want to buy a firearm through normal channels, not just because the cylinders are really cool to own....they will have a hell of a time legally buying the handgun ammo for it. They can't legally buy it directly from a retailer, but it's not reasonable to compare it to having someone do a strawman firearms purchase. Strawman purchases are easily traced but it would be nearly impossible to prove that person A gave person B a handful of shells (and therefore similarly difficult to prosecute which essentially eliminates the risk to the person providing the ammunition illegally). Besides, see below.**...then in many states it is perfectly legal for them to do so.Why are we assuming that only those over 18 are buying these things? The whole point is that if the seller doesn't see the buyer in person it's virtually impossible to verify what the buyer claims is the truth.

**The most you need to order cartridge ammunition or a BP revolver online is a copy of a DL and that's easily altered or made up if you can't snag Dad's for a few minutes. The last time I bought a quantity of handgun ammunition online I didn't even have to provide a DL copy--just poked my age into the proper spot on the form and that was good enough.

Anyway, my point is that these cylinders are, IMO, primarily sold to people who want firearms but can't or won't buy guns through the normal legal channels. Sometimes it's legal (as in your case), sometimes it's not, and sometimes that's not an issue at all--people buy them just for fun. I'm saying that the latter case is, in my opinion, the exception rather than the rule.

Shotgun Willy
November 17, 2007, 07:31 AM
Dstorm1911, I know that I can drop the percussion cylinder in just as fast but there are 2 things I'm considering. 1) I don't have to wonder, so much, if the 45LC are going to fire, and more importantly 2) the rugrats have to figure out how to get the percussion cyl. out before they can put the conversion in!;)

sundance44s
November 17, 2007, 03:08 PM
I think Remmie conversion cylinders are the best invention since peanut butter , And are historically correct ..which to us proud gun collectors is very important . Some of us ( ME ) feel like just maybe it wasn`t the invention of the Colt peacemaker that won the west ..MR. Remingtions conversion cylinders could have and did play a large role in the tameing of the wild west .

And like what happened in New Orleans after Katrina ..when the goverment goes door to door takeing guns regestered to the partys involved ...My Remmingtons with conversion cylinders ( all 4 of them )...don`t exist .;)

dwave
November 17, 2007, 04:46 PM
My Remmingtons with conversion cylinders ( all 4 of them )...don`t exist .

They do now......Big Brother is watching this thread. :evil:

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