[MG's]

I went hunting 11/05/07 with my 1945 Lee Enfield without a scope to speak of.Well at a 150 yards I saw look to be a doe,I aimed right at the shoulder and fired the first shot didn't drop the deer and it ran in the woods and circled around into the power line stand so I came down off the power line stand I was in and shot at 85 the deer wouldn't drop until it ran 50 feet where it was standing.The deer dropped at 50 feet ,When I got down to the creek I found that the two bullet hole were next to each other spaced about 1 inch apart.

My question is,Why doesn't a 303 have the knock down power,I was using a soft point 180 grain bullet I was on target hitting right where I need to hit but I still don't know why Bambie wouldn't die:banghead: I think I need a bigger gun with a bigger bullet:evil: Can someone tell me which gun has the I don't want to get up smack down power in a rifle I'm looking new and old C&R rifles to shoot .I love the 303 but it has failed me because I thought it had the power.I have a Nagant but it weight a ton to pack it in and out of the woods plus the bolt its not that great to mount a scope to it.I wish I could get a U bolt for it.

[trueblue1776]

.303 is a well tested, well traveled beast, the round ain't the problem.

[Car Knocker]

What did the bullets look like after recovered?

[marksman13]

The 303 ain't the problem. Neither was the shot from the sound of it. Deer just do crazy things sometimes. Shoot a couple more before you give up on the old war horse.

[gravis86]

I don't know about the deer, but punctuation (periods, mostly) can do wonders for your paragraph and for the people reading your post.

[birdbustr]

See thread "How far can a deer go with double lung or heart shot?"

This should tell you what you did wrong, if anything. You definitely have plenty of gun for a deer. You need to take a hard look at your bullets you are using. NOT a good track record for those 180 soft points for sure.

[Blackfork]

It was the deers first time being killed with a 303 and it didn't know how to act.

This is exactly the reason hunting includes tracking, sign reading, deer biology, environmental knowlege, weather reconing, orienteering, et, et, BESIDES being able to fire accurate shots under various conditions and ranges.

You need a very full skill kit to successfully hunt and kill animals and recover them. Rejoice! It's a great sport with many questions and answers.

[Steve C]

A 180gr bullet is a pretty heavy bullet to shoot deer which is fairly small. They'll usually blow clean through with little to no upset. There is only 3 ways a bullet will stop any animal (including man) and that's 1. Central nervous system disruption, 2. Skeletal destruction or 3. Circulatory system depletion. If you don't break the shoulders or spine there's nothing that's going to "stop" the deer except loss of blood. They can run a heck of a long way before they die from blood loss as you found out.

:)ROFLMAO:
It was the deers first time being killed with a 303 and it didn't know how to act.

[littlegator]

Blackfork, thank you. Crap that was funny.

Back to topic, amazing how the deer can keep going like that after a lung shot. the 303 at 50 to 150 should have enough power to knock out the shoulder too, which would knock down the deer but not kill it. So, I guess it's a trade...unless of course, you get lung, heart, and shoulder in one shot. Score.

[The Ruckus]

I don't know about the deer, but punctuation (periods, mostly) can do wonders for your paragraph and for the people reading your post.

Oh boy, it's the grammar police run! I'm pretty sure this forum is about hunting, not grammar.

[R.W.Dale]

http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=316024

bottom line is deer don't watch Magnum P.I. reruns. So they don't know that they're supposed to flop onto their backs and point all four legs in the air apoun being shot.

[Buzztail]

It was the deers first time being killed with a 303 and it didn't know how to act.



ROTFLMAO TOO!! Great way to start the morning THANKS!!

[Sistema1927]

Living things don't like to die.

[MCgunner]

Actually, I'd recommend a SMALLER bullet for whitetail. That 180 may not be constructed to open up on thin skinned game. I don't know if that old milsurp would shoot well with 150s, but that's where I'd look. Were I handloading for it, i'd go with a premium bullet if I could find one in the caliber. That's the problem with oddball milsurp calibers, hard to find decent bullets for 'em. Stick with .308" bullets and you have a great range of great bullets, like the Nosler Ballistic Tip I use in my .308 or the Barnes X I also like in that gun.

[Harve Curry]

MG,
Could be the bullet didn't open up. Did you check the wound channel when you gutted him?
At the ranges your shooting you might be pleasantly surprised what you can do with iron sites. I just got a buck with a iron sighted 1881 Marlin 45-70 at 160 yards. You can see a picture posted on this forum.

[JR1]

Blackfoot--Funniest thing I've read in a while! Thanks.

Your .303 is a fine deer round. But you could shoot 100 deer with it and only see 50 fall at the shot. Course you could do the same with a Weatherby 30/378 Magnum as well. Deer are curious animals when shot and some just seem to have excessive amounts of stamina.

Sounds to me like the deer died within sight...that is awesome performance. I mean, seriously, you don't get much better than that.

[Art Eatman]

With Internet postss, there are no facial expressions and body language to help in making oneself understood.

"It is not your duty to understand me. It is my duty to make myself understood." That's a two-way street.

And it's the reason why proper grammar, spelling and punctuation is a Good Thing.

Art

[c price]

it's the placement of your shot not the gun?

[CrawdaddyJim]

Nobody but the magazine writers get a bang flop on wild animals.

[Cosmoline]

The deer didn't get away, so I call that a win. Dropping a member of the deer family in its tracks isn't something you can expect to happen every time. I've never seen a moose go down that way, even if hit with some pretty potent artillery. They always seem to take about a minute to die, and may walk off or trot off in the process. As long as it doesn't launch out into some deep wet bog or lake, no harm no foul.

If you want to get more oomph out of the .303 handload with some Woodleigh bullets. They're designed for that exact cartridge and will open up at lower FPS than many other rifle SP's.

[351 WINCHESTER]

The 180 gr. is too heavy for deer. Switch to a 150sp or if you reload you can use the various ak bullets that are soft points. You can drive these just shy of 3,000 fps. Deadly on deer - period. Save your 180's for moose and bear.

[ArcherandShooter]

180 is too heavy for deer

W-e-l-l-l-l, I don't know as how I'd be dogmatic about that. In the last 10 days, I have shot two Texas whitetails with 180 grain .30-06 bullets. The first was a true bang-flop. The second ran all of 50 yards, leaving a blood trail 6 inches wide.

With proper shot placement, none of the meat was wasted on either deer, and they both had quick deaths.

[CrawdaddyJim]

How long you been writing for them magazines Archer?:D

[Deer Hunter]

351 WIN,

So what have you got to say to me for using 203 grain SPs from my Mosin? :)

[skinewmexico]

I've had better luck with cheap soft points than premium bullets on deer.

[El Tejon]

Animals rarely read ballistics tables. Around here the bucks read Sports Illustrated and the does usually read Better Forestkeeping.

[MeekandMild]

proper grammar, spelling and punctuation is a Good Thing. I once read a Faulkner sentence that ran on for three pages and a couple dozen paragraphs. It may be the longest sentence in American literature. ;)

Personally I tend to aim lower than the shoulder, so as to hit the middle of the lung. It seems that the deer bleeds out more quickly and completely that way. Think of a deer lung as being a whole lot of blood vessels fanning out from the middle and you'll see why. Probably Faulkner would have described it in more flowery terms.

[Art Eatman]

It's less the weight of a bullet than it is the construction. Just generalizing, but a lot of the 180-grain bullets in 30-caliber are a bit thicker jacket, intended more for bigger animals than the average Ol' Bambi. They don't open up as readily as, say, a 150-grain.

Ya never know. I've hit deer in the "perfect" high-heart, low-lung area, cross-body, with a .270 130-grain and had them drop to the elbows and then jump up and run 50 or 75 yards. Other times, DRT. Same for an '06. My longest shot ever, 450 yards, I hit the buck from in front maybe four inches above his chest line. He just folded his legs and quit.

About the only guaranteed DRT, seems like, is a neck shot. I've never had a ncik-hit deer go anywhere.

Art

[454c]

Where did the bullet impact and how did the bullet travel? You said you aimed at the shoulders and the holes were about an inch apart but, you failed to say where. You fired at different positions and angles so is it possible the first bullet didn't reach the vitals?

[jimmyraythomason]

I have stopped using wonder bullets in my deer rifles. I have found the run-of-the-mill factory rounds do just as well and are a LOT cheaper! I agree that 180 gr is too much for whitetail, I never use heavier than 150/168gr bullets in .30cal. I have had deer drop from my 8mm and have had to trail up deer shot with 30.06 and 7mm.08 all good hits.

[Deanimator]

About the only guaranteed DRT, seems like, is a neck shot. I've never had a ncik-hit deer go anywhere.

+1

The deer that my best friend killed this week was hit in the spine, close to the neck. He aimed for the heart/lungs, but hit a little high and to the right. The deer went down like it'd been struck with a 40mm HE-DP. The 155gr. Hornady A-Max mushroomed perfectly.

[MG's]

Sorry about the grammar,
This was my first deer I ever shoot in my life,
For the life of me I still don't understand my the deer didn't go down on the first shoot I hit a main blood vessel in the shoulder which I'm told that the vessel I hit would make the deer bleed to the point of dead.The second was the one that found its mark but I'm not sure what the bullet hit to make the deer run 50 feet and then the deer drops,I guess that it had a will to live with two gunshot wounds in its body.The bullets went right through the deer out to the other shoulder so their was not much meat was wasted by the bullet.

But I have been think that the 303 isn't great for the knock down power after I've had this very bad experience that didn't take down the deer right off the bat and flop it on its rear.But I might try again to use Enfield using the low grain soft point bullets or if I can find hollow point in 303 that guys are talking about.I hate to give up on my Enfield she my load on Sunday and shoot till Saturday rifle.:evil:

P.S
Does anyone here use a Mosin M44 for a deer rifle?
I was wanting pick one up but I would like to know if they make
for a good deer rifle.I have a Mosin that was made in 1909 but the darn thing is to heavy for hunting.I'm looking to use C&R guns because I hate to pay 300.00-500.00 for a rifle that a C&R has the power to do for less cash.

[trueblue1776]

MG's, I occasionally use my Mosin 91/30 for medium game, with good results.

[Art Eatman]

Deer get a tremendous adrenalin surge in an elapsed time of zero seconds. That surge can allow a good amount of distance before they pile up dead. Lord only knows how many stories I've heard of blown-out hearts and Ol' Bucky made it for a hundred yards or more.

If it's a bleed-out wound and the heart's still pumping? Hey, that's anybody's guess. Lotsa those stories around, also. "We trailed that deer for darned near a mile!" and suchlike.

Art

[marksman13]

"Sorry about the grammar,
This was my first deer I ever shoot in my life,
For the life of me I still don't understand my the deer didn't go down on the first shoot I hit a main blood vessel in the shoulder which I'm told that the vessel I hit would make the deer bleed to the point of dead.The second was the one that found its mark but I'm not sure what the bullet hit to make the deer run 50 feet and then the deer drops,I guess that it had a will to live with two gunshot wounds in its body.The bullets went right through the deer out to the other shoulder so their was not much meat was wasted by the bullet.

But I have been think that the 303 isn't great for the knock down power after I've had this very bad experience that didn't take down the deer right off the bat and flop it on its rear.But I might try again to use Enfield using the low grain soft point bullets or if I can find hollow point in 303 that guys are talking about.I hate to give up on my Enfield she my load on Sunday and shoot till Saturday rifle.

P.S
Does anyone here use a Mosin M44 for a deer rifle?
I was wanting pick one up but I would like to know if they make
for a good deer rifle.I have a Mosin that was made in 1909 but the darn thing is to heavy for hunting.I'm looking to use C&R guns because I hate to pay 300.00-500.00 for a rifle that a C&R has the power to do for less cash."


Say what? I'm more confused then before.

[TehK1w1]

The 303 is a great cartridge with a long history of successful hunting in Africa. For anyone who has read The Man-Eaters of Tsavo or seen the movie Ghosts in the Darkness that is based on it, Patterson killed both of the lions with his 303.
As for the Mosin-Nagant, they are often more accurate than people seem to think, and the 7.62x62R cartridge is equal to the .30-06 in power.

[MCgunner]

I never gripe at people about grammar and spelling. Something about people who live in glass houses........

[mnw42]

My M39 will keep a five rounds into 1.5-2" at 100 yds with good amm and irons. Deer are quite resilient, and unless you hit 'em in the fuse box or through the heart that can barrel off for some distance before expiring. You could always use Mk.VII ball, but that would make a mess...

[marksman13]

MCgunner, I don't normally say anything about grammar because I know I make mistakes too. When the post is barely understandable though...it's just a bit ridiculous.

[BIGDADDYLONGSTROKE]

I use a .308 now in 150 grain, however the 200 grain .338 ultra mag that I recently used dropped my whitetail dead in its tracks it took 2 shots but first shot was the shooter being way to exicted not the gun, but the second one dropped it now problem the same gun killed an antelope on the move right were it was got that one on video. Any how the rounds we were using are handloads with combined technology bullets you might try them. Congrats on the kill.

[ranger53]

I know that I'm going to catch it for this, but it's all about shot placement. A man (older and wiser) told me first thing is to study your quarry!:eek: He told me the best place to put a bullet is about 2 inches above the front leg. :what: That's right ! I went to whitetails.com. and looked at the anatomy. Sure enough, the spine is located about 2 inches above the front leg!;) That shot will drop them in their tracks! Now, you need to practice, practice, and practice! The good thing is there is hardly any destruction of good meat at this spot. And personally, I like the flanks undisturbed, because they make for some yummy bacon!:D;)
tommy

[pete f]

A deer running 50 yards after the is far more the norm than the exception, the one place where every shot is DRT is on TV. Even with a heart and both lungs blown to bits, I have had deer run 50 yards or a bit more. It just takes that long for the body to get the message that its dead.

You rifle and the bullets you used worked absolutely perfectly. It help you kill the deer. The bullets left a big and easy to follow blood trail. The bullets hit where you wanted to hit. Nothing more can be asked.

I think you have been mislead by the TV shows on the hunting chanels which never show a deer running any distance. But think back to those shows, unless they hit the brain or the spine, that deer takes off running at the shot, and they cut back to the shooter doing his arm pump and rebel yell. Then the next cut is to the hunter and his guide walking up to the dead deer. There is no indication that it ran a hundred yards. That does not make good TV. But its the truth.

A Moisin is not going to kill game any better than a .303. ballistically they are peas in a pod, and no animal is going to die any faster from a MN, than they are from a SMLE or the like, its like saying which will run me over better a mustang or a camaro. but when you look at paper, they are both the same size, weight, speed and materials.

[R.W.Dale]

its like saying which will run me over better a mustang or a camaro

What a great one liner! I may have to steal that one for the next 9mm vs 45 or 7.62x39 vs 223 debate