The GF and I argued about CCW'ing


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kd7nqb
November 14, 2007, 04:04 AM
Stipulated facts

1. My girl and I both regularly carry and are active shooters

2. While we do both CCW we both JUST turned 21 this summer and got our CHL's so we both admit CCW'ing is not our expertise yet

We are in the car today and I told her I bought a box of Federal Hydra Shocks 135grain for my M&P. She asked "What did you have in their before" I reply, that I was being cheap and just keeping hand inspected WWB in the gun since its what I had in the house.

She immediately was rather upset with me, she said that due to the risk of over penetration carrying FMJ rounds for SD was irresponsible. I agree that the better personal protection rounds are better for CCW but my preference is more based on higher levels of reliability and higher standards in the ammo manufacturing process.

So I ask for THR's input.

Is it irresponsible to not use highly frangible ammo in a SD gun.

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General Geoff
November 14, 2007, 04:12 AM
Work on a compromise, such as Federal Expanding Full Metal Jacket (EFMJ) rounds.


:)

Mannix
November 14, 2007, 04:13 AM
While it's best NOT to over-penetrate, understand that in an adrenaline charged situation, it's not very likely that you will hit every time. So whats worse for those around you, the hydra shocks you're missing with, or the FMJs you're missing with and the couple that might make it out of the guy? I personally think the difference is blown out of proportion by alot of folks(if it even exists).

kd7nqb
November 14, 2007, 04:17 AM
good call on the argument about missing, not one I thought of.

Zangetsu
November 14, 2007, 04:20 AM
She's got a point, but you don't want an under penetrating round either. For civilian purposes, I'd go with some type of JHP because chances are I'm not going to be shooting at anyone behind walls or wearing body armor, but I do want to make sure that the person I hit is going to get hit hard. For a self defense pistol load, I like the 200gr JHP +P .45 ACP that I use because it does exactly what I want it to; it shouldn't over penetrate (much), but will leave a big hole wherever it goes. Likewise, a regular FMJ .45 ACP probably won't have a whole lotta penetrating power anyway. In the end, as with so, so many questions about firearms in general, I think the best answer is.....get ready for it......



It depends :)

Fast Frank
November 14, 2007, 04:58 AM
Might want to take note of this...

If she thinks she can tell you what kind of bullets to put in your pistol before you are married to her, how is she going to act when she owns you?

Just a reminder from a guy that made a similar mistake with my first wife.

redbearde
November 14, 2007, 05:09 AM
Is it irresponsible to not use highly frangible ammo in a SD gun?

I don't use it. If I have to shoot someone, then I prefer as much penetration as I can get. I want my assailant bleeding from two holes instead of one.....for each round I put in/through him.

Know your target and what's behind it. Don't assume a round you fire -won't- go all the way through.

One thing I personally would NOT want is for some extremely fat fellow to be able to take 10 to 12 inches of penetration and my rounds not get to the important parts. Or worse...using some of those frangible rounds I've seen advertised as specifically not over-penetrating...and then they don't go farther than a few inches in before disapperating. I'm sure it would sting, but I would prefer something more damaging for my self-defense.

ymmv with that.

Until someone presents me with evidence of an epidemic of through-and-throughs that actually kill a few small children, I think of this "over-penetration" business the same as I do about using a cell-phone while I fill my gas tank or the threats that I will drop dead of my neighbor smoking a cigarette. In his house.

Incidentally,

Aside from within a warzone, do any of you know of an actual incident where a pistol round went through one man, kept on going, and killed someone else across the street? Is it not simply poor aim by the shooter when a by-stander gets hit?

Guitargod1985
November 14, 2007, 06:54 AM
Aside from within a warzone, do any of you know of an actual incident where a pistol round went through one man, kept on going, and killed someone else across the street?

Never heard of it.

Is it not simply poor aim by the shooter when a by-stander gets hit?

Not necessarily. I would think it is quite possible for a bullet to impact a bone at an angle that would cause it to skip or ricochet, producing an entirely different trajectory. Now, would it still retainenough kinetic energy to pose a substantial risk to another human? Doubtful, but then that depends on the round as well.

Harvster
November 14, 2007, 07:09 AM
Offensive post removed

jeepmor
November 14, 2007, 07:34 AM
"Well honey, since we haven't been in any shootouts just yet, don't you worry your pretty little head, it's not an issue anymore now is it."

Use that yes dear now and get used to it if you think you want to marry this gal. It'll save you more grief than you know, trust me, I've been with my girl since I was your age.

MarkDido
November 14, 2007, 07:34 AM
practice drill

Yes dear......sorry.......yes dear. Repeat.

This will do more for your health and well being than anything ammo related.

Sage advise.

I got married in the Broward County Courthose 10 years ago.

The clerk that performed the ceremony (female) pulled me off to the side and had me repeat "The Marriage Mantra" 3 times before she would perform the ceremony.

The mantra is:

Yes Dear
I'm sorry dear
It's all my fault dear

I have forgotten this mantra several times over the past 10 years
And I have the scars to prove it!

Fly320s
November 14, 2007, 07:39 AM
kd7nqb,

Which ammo is more reliable in your gun?

If they are even on that point, which one is more accurate (consistant) from your gun?

If they are still even, go with the Hydra Shoks, just in case.

Wopasaurus
November 14, 2007, 10:38 AM
Luckily you have an M&P, so theoretically it should handle any kinda jhp that you feed it.

Correia
November 14, 2007, 10:48 AM
Guys, keep it on The High Road.

This thread has absolutely nothing to do, at all, with the fact that it is his girlfriend or that she is female.

I would make fun of his ammo choice also, but that is only from looking at hundreds of autopsy photos of people shot with various things.

For example:

If she thinks she can tell you what kind of bullets to put in your pistol before you are married to her, how is she going to act when she owns you?

Just a reminder from a guy that made a similar mistake with my first wife.

People disagree. And in this case the original poster's ammo selection goes against what most professionals would recommend also. From the very brief post, you can somehow assume negative things about the OP's girlfriend because why? She's got ovaries?

Yes dear......sorry.......yes dear. Repeat.

Yes, because we know that women are inherantly irrational, and incapable of logical thought, (even though she's young, and has already made the decision to carry a firearm) so you should never debate with a woman. :scrutiny: Give me a break.

"Well honey, since we haven't been in any shootouts just yet, don't you worry your pretty little head, it's not an issue anymore now is it."

Yep, because everybody on a testosterone soaked gunboard knows that them feeble wimin folk are too pathetic to think about complicated things like wound ballistics. Hell, I'm surprised you allow her to carry a gun. She might break a nail.

And we wonder once again why only 1% of our posters here are women, because we manage to chase most of them off, and why we struggle in the culture war.

BridgeWalker
November 14, 2007, 10:52 AM
Corriea, can I hug you?

Correia
November 14, 2007, 10:55 AM
And back on topic, nobody that shoots people for a living chooses to carry FMJ when hollow points are available.

Overpenetration through tissue is not the big deal, but if you miss under stress, an FMJ will travel through more building materials than a JHP.

But more importantly, JHPs when they work as designed, make a bigger hole. Bigger hole = more likely to hit something important that is going to bleed. That is pretty much it. If the bullet fails to expand, then you just shot them with an FMJ anyway.

As for not penetrating enough through really fat guys, most modern defensive hollow points are designed and loaded hot enough to still get plenty of penetration. Unless you're in a gunfight against somebody who's basically a land whale, and you shoot them at a really bad angle, you're still going to reach vitals. So if you get into a fight with Shamu, just shoot him in his head.

No matter what, keep in mind that all handguns suck relative to rifles and shotguns anyway, so be ready to engage every target with multiple rounds until they cease being a threat. Since my handgun sucks at stopping people quickly, I might as well carry the most effective round I can.

If you're worried about reliability, the M&P should run fine with any premium hollowpoint. Buy a box. Shoot it. If it works. Buy another. You're good to go. And most premium defensive hollowpoints are built to a higher spec that Winchester White Box, which is basically cheap plinking ammo.

TX1911fan
November 14, 2007, 11:12 AM
Correia, two excellent posts. The ONLY time the "yes dear" should be used is during wedding preparations (you do NOT want to debate that kind of stuff). Otherwise, it is entirely appropriate to engage your SO in reasoned, respectful and lively debate. I wouldn't have married anyone incapable of such, and niether would she.

ZeSpectre
November 14, 2007, 11:43 AM
DISCLAIMER: I've never had to shoot a person (Thank you God, hope I never have to!).

However I have worked with several who have and have seen some of the results first hand. Let's just skip over complete "misses" for the moment and focus on "hits". The bottom line for me is that bullets do really weird things once they impact flesh and bone and yes, it seems that FMJ does tend to just keep going.

I have seen two .357 Magnum rounds that were fired point blank, passed through the torso of the target, exited out the back, and embedded in a heavy oak door. Both were JHP rounds. I am fully confident that those rounds WOULD have also penetrated the door and gone into the lobby beyond had they been FMJ rounds.

I was also told (by an EMT) about a man who coughed hard and spit up a FMJ round from a smaller caliber gun (I believe it was a .380 but honestly I'm not sure I remember correctly). the round had glanced off a rib (shattering it) and lost enough energy to stop inside his lung. The medic believed that had the round not hit bone it would have just kept going through.

I've also witnessed a LSWC round from a .357 and a .40 S&W slam through far more material than I ever expected.

Finally, the nastiest FMJ I know of. The 7.62x25 round out of a CZ-52. Until you shoot one at some stuff you just CAN'T understand what that round will penetrate! Wolf JHP out of the same gun behaves well dumping energy into the target and then stopping.

Harvster
November 14, 2007, 11:50 AM
Yes, because we know that women are inherantly irrational, and incapable of logical thought, (even though she's young, and has already made the decision to carry a firearm) so you should never debate with a woman. Give me a break.


My comment was quite obviously(or so I thought) a simple jest about being married in general. How you construe that into some sort of attack on the female intelligence is beyond me. And, let me tell you something in full disclosure. I am married to a smart,strong, woman with a PhD. She works and provides for our family while I stay home raising our children. So yeah, I'm all about how weak, illogical, and helpless women are.:scrutiny:

tinygnat219
November 14, 2007, 12:20 PM
Man,
Does your wife have a sister? I'd LOVE to have that kind of argument with my wife. It shows you married a good woman.

Correia
November 14, 2007, 12:30 PM
How you construe that into some sort of attack on the female intelligence is beyond me.

Oh, I construe it quite easily. Simple sarcasm doesn't always convey in the written form, combined with the fact that we've had literally thousands of posts, exactly like yours (look a couple posts above yours for example) that convey that exact same thought, only they're 100% serious.

Until you call them on it, because then, of course, they were only joking. :)

Zundfolge
November 14, 2007, 12:38 PM
When I read about the poor saps that come in here after a fight with their SO about the mere possession of firearms, let alone ccw, let alone ammo choice ... well kd7nqb should count himself among the lucky ones :p


Anyway, I believe her concerns about FMJ are overstated, but still basically right ... years of study of wound ballistics shows that JHPs just work better. But you were no great menace to society by packing FMJ. Would she have been happier that you left your gun at home because you didn't have the "right" ammo?

Although to be honest, back when I carried a Makarov I carried FMJs because I was concerned that 9x18mak didn't have the umph to reliably expand JHPs (and the only reason I have JHPs in my wife's KelTec P3AT is because we got a couple boxes free with the gun).


Actually a bigger problem than over penetration from FMJ (especially low grade "practice ammo" FMJ) is the issue of reliability... I've had WWB (and other cheap practice FMG) not go bang at the range. NEVER had any higher quality JHP not function.

The loudest sound in a gunfight is a *click* when there was supposed to be a *bang!*

dasmi
November 14, 2007, 12:45 PM
She's probably right. Count yourself lucky that you get to have an argument like that with her.
I keep WWB FMJs in my Glock 17, mostly because that's what I always shoot in it for practice, and I know that they work reliably. When I have time and money, I'll pick a good defense round and shoot a bunch of it to be sure it works.

Trebor
November 14, 2007, 02:08 PM
I'm with your GF.

While I wouldn't necessarily call it "irresponsible" to load FMJ, I think a good modern premium JHP load is a better choice.

I never recommend Winchester White Box as a defensive load. It does not use a "low flash" propellent and the QC is not up to the standards of the premium defensive loads.

Wes Janson
November 14, 2007, 02:14 PM
If you're having a fight with your GF over what defensive load you're carrying, you've found yourself a damn rare catch, and should appreciate that.
So if you get into a fight with Shamu, just shoot him in his head.
I forsee that making it into someone's sig sooner or later. ;)

Beatnik
November 14, 2007, 02:19 PM
Unless you're in a gunfight against somebody who's basically a land whale, and you shoot them at a really bad angle, you're still going to reach vitals. So if you get into a fight with Shamu, just shoot him in his head.

This is better than the woman comments?


I'm really interested in knowing why FMJ is a military mandate. If high-tech ammo is really so much more effective, why don't we pull out of the 1899 Hague Convention agreements?

Zundfolge
November 14, 2007, 02:21 PM
If high-tech ammo is really so much more effective, why don't we pull out of the 1899 Hague Convention agreements?
Because the Hague Convention isn't about effectiveness, its about "cruelty" and frankly the more effective any round is going to be, the more damage its going to do therefore the more "cruel" it is.

Correia
November 14, 2007, 02:29 PM
Beatnik, I was responding to the poster that talked about how he wanted FMJ because it penetrated more. More response was that unless you're fighting somebody really really really really big (i.e. land whale) that's a moot point. You can take that to mean fat if you like. It can also be muscle. Either way, we're talking about a very thick individual.

Even then, if you take a really large man (like myself for example) and you're shooting a hollowpoint that is designed to penetrate 12", there is almost no angle on me, even passing through my arm, armpit, and then into my chest cavity, where 12" won't reach my vitals. The thing to keep in mind is that eithr FMJ or JHP will probably deflect when it hits bones, so there's no guarentee, so shoot them as many times as you have to.


I'm really interested in knowing why FMJ is a military mandate. If high-tech ammo is really so much more effective, why don't we pull out of the 1899 Hague Convention agreements?

A better question would be, name a single group that regularly has to shoot people with handguns, that isn't bound by law or treaty to use FMJ, that chooses to do so?

Geronimo45
November 14, 2007, 02:36 PM
I'm really interested in knowing why FMJ is a military mandate. If high-tech ammo is really so much more effective, why don't we pull out of the 1899 Hague Convention agreements?
'Cuz military ammo is usually general purpose. Sometimes you need to shoot through walls, sometimes glass... FMJ does a tad better than HP. Probably better at anti-armor stuff, too.

As per the OP: aren't a lot of current HP rounds designed to go in one end and out the other? Explicitly made to 'overpenetrate' to cause maximum blood loss? The purpose of HP as sold to the voters by PDs is that it won't overpenetrate and kill half the city. The real purpose is a better chance of stopping the target. The reduced chance of overpenetration is incidental.

chieftain
November 14, 2007, 02:43 PM
RE: Through Shoots,

Aside from within a warzone, do any of you know of an actual incident where a pistol round went through one man, kept on going, and killed someone else across the street? Is it not simply poor aim by the shooter when a by-stander gets hit?

I have seen through shoots personally in military combat. Several times.

I am not going to look it up. But the year before the NYPD went from FMJ to JHP's they had documented 42 through shoots.

IIRC 31 of them hit other cops. That is why NYPD finally went to JHP's in their 9mm Glock's, S&W's, and SIG's. They haven't had that problem since.

Facts, the argument ender.

Go figure.

Fred

PS If your platform will not function reliably with Hollow Point bullets, and you can legally use Hollow point bullets, get your platform (gun) fixed or replace it.

F

WAID
November 14, 2007, 03:17 PM
Ha, consider yourself lucky, I was looking at a thread with a scoped Ruger mk II and my girlfriend asked me why you need sights on a handgun, aren't they just for killing people? :rolleyes: This ones a bit of a project but she seems to be coming around and she actually seems to understand when I explain things to her. I did find out that there was some previous event that made her rather uncomfortable with handguns.

XDKingslayer
November 14, 2007, 03:44 PM
Just switch out her carry rounds for blanks to get even...

roscoe
November 14, 2007, 04:27 PM
Yeah I had a similar argument with my wife last week over whether .300 or .338 was more appropriate for long-range sniper work. Dames . . .

sm
November 14, 2007, 04:50 PM
My advice, screw arguments!
Arguments are not healthy, and for damn sure not healthy for relationships and life is too damn short anyway.

Hold hands, go to a gun store, each buy some boxes of Ammunition, and go shoot.
Shoot some dirt in a box, objective being the guns running including with magazines and shooting POA/POI, and hitting what aiming at.

Pick up brass, hold hands leaving range.
Since you shot your budgets, but know what works in respective guns and how deep they went shooting the highly scientific Shoot Mud/Dirt Test , stop on the way home and get some chocolate, and then continue on home.
Get under the covers and make Whoopie.

Beats the hell out of teh Intraweb and arguing over ammunition.

ozwyn
November 14, 2007, 06:03 PM
If you're having a ccw argument and the worst of it is choice of ammo, you still have it pretty f--king good. Go back and read all the ended relationship threads due to anti-gun sig. others out there.

I mean, it is not like it was a caliber argument or heaven forbid, a anti-gun agument.

count yourself luck to have a good, reasonable, logical argument over ammo choice.

Personally i think Hollow point ammunition should be preferred over fmj, but that's just my .02

I mean, you could have countered by saying "well, I was counting on you to outshoot me if it was needed anyway" :p

yesit'sloaded
November 14, 2007, 06:20 PM
I have a problem along the same lines. My girlfriend refuses to shoot anything that doesn't start with 4 :neener:
http://photos-a.ak.facebook.com/photos-ak-sf2p/v143/181/48/1287840044/n1287840044_30215268_8459.jpg

redbearde
November 14, 2007, 07:08 PM
Correia, thanks for the information.

Chieftain, I have heard such things many times. I've even heard the ubiquitous, "he fired, it went through the perp, bounced off the brick wall, and came back and wounded the officer who fired". I am just as likely to believe it's NYPD's lousy shooting instead of through-shoots. I would appreciate a source, if you don't mind.

sixgunner455
November 14, 2007, 07:11 PM
sm - :D

Chuhhuniban
November 14, 2007, 07:15 PM
In several forums to which I belong, this sort of discussion comes up (and up, and up, and up). The best answer I have ever found was the signature line of a guy named Erich over in (I think) 10MM Talk, to wit: "Shot placement is king, adequate penetration is queen, everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins."

As suggested several times, try several brands/forms of ammunition until you find the one that works, all the time, every time in your pistol.

Then, practice and practice and practice, in good light, bad light, no light, near, far and in between. Then every few weeks, practice some more.

Do it together with your GF/Wife/SO and you'll both be safer and have fun besides.

Jeez, guys, give it a rest....

Cougfan2
November 14, 2007, 07:16 PM
Use that yes dear now and get used to it if you think you want to marry this gal. It'll save you more grief than you know, trust me, I've been with my girl since I was your age.

That's what I tell me son regarding his girlfriend. The two most important words in a relationship........."Yes, Dear".

MrPeter
November 14, 2007, 09:15 PM
I'm really interested in knowing why FMJ is a military mandate. If high-tech ammo is really so much more effective, why don't we pull out of the 1899 Hague Convention agreements?
'Cuz military ammo is usually general purpose. Sometimes you need to shoot through walls, sometimes glass... FMJ does a tad better than HP. Probably better at anti-armor stuff, too.

"The Contracting Parties agree to abstain from the use of bullets which expand or flatten easily in the human body, such as bullets with a hard envelope which does not entirely cover the core, or is pierced with incisions."

"...it is especially forbidden -

To employ arms, projectiles, or material{sic} calculated to cause unnecessary suffering;"

but...

"...expanding point ammunition is legally permissible in counterterrorist operations not involving the engagement of the armed forces of another State."


Dunno how accurate this is... if someone knows more about the Geneva Convention or the Hague Convention IV of 1907, which I think expired(?) go ahead and post here, I don't have time to do more research.

Oh, and did anyone think that the answer to these questions involve price? FMJ's are much easier/cheaper to make.



And lastly, to the OP, if you have a problem with her, I'll take her. I'll say, "Yes, dear" and mean it, because I do believe loading FMJ's, especially +P FMJ's, and ESPECIALLY 9mm Para +P is very irrisponsible and ineffective.

Is she tall? I like 'em tall... ;)

gunsmith
November 14, 2007, 09:26 PM
If you're having a fight with your GF over what defensive load you're carrying, you've found yourself a damn rare catch, and should appreciate that.
Quoted for accuracy... my old GF would argue about whether I "needed" a gun to go to the movies and stuff like that.
She also got angry at me for saying things like "I can't speak freely about politics because my GF gets angry" to company during dinner....
I told my old GF that I was a gun nut before we started dating, she said it was "fine" ....it was only fine for about 2 months.

the naked prophet
November 14, 2007, 10:39 PM
My wife carries .40 flat-point FMJ in her S&W M&P because it's the only ammo so far that's been reliable in it. And it's the only gun that fits her tiny little hands that's been reliable at all.

We've tried all kinds of JHP in it, to no avail. She's comfortable with flat point FMJ, and she's carrying a gun. I think she'll do well enough.

She does trust my word on ammo selection, but I told her that if it's not relialble, she shouldn't carry it. Until we can find one that works, she'll continue to carry her FMJ.

benEzra
November 14, 2007, 11:06 PM
We are in the car today and I told her I bought a box of Federal Hydra Shocks 135grain for my M&P. She asked "What did you have in their before" I reply, that I was being cheap and just keeping hand inspected WWB in the gun since its what I had in the house.
The only failure I have EVER had with my carry gun, in the course of >2000 rounds through it, was a round of Winchester white box target ammo. Looked perfect externally, but the priming cup apparently had no priming compound in it.

Green Lantern
November 14, 2007, 11:39 PM
When I read about the poor saps that come in here after a fight with their SO about the mere possession of firearms, let alone ccw, let alone ammo choice ... well kd7nqb should count himself among the lucky ones

If you're having a fight with your GF over what defensive load you're carrying, you've found yourself a damn rare catch, and should appreciate that.

+1! :D

As for the argument - "irresponsible" might be a bit harsh, but I tend to fall into the 'fear of over-penetration' camp, and only carry JHPs. Though in a smaller gun, like a .32 or even a .380, I might consider it.

FWIW, I shoot lots of WWB 9mm, and have NEVER had a 'dud,' though past results are NO guarantee of future performance!

My G19 carry load is either Silvertips, Gold Dots and even sometimes (but not so much anymore) WWB FMJs.

I do admit that others here make some good points FOR using FMJs - but all things considered, I'll just keep my hollowpoints and practice 'head shots' more. ;)

Wes Janson
November 14, 2007, 11:58 PM
A better question would be, name a single group that regularly has to shoot people with handguns, that isn't bound by law or treaty to use FMJ, that chooses to do so?

Gang members? ('cause they're cheap and buy at Wallyworld) ;)

TimboKhan
November 15, 2007, 01:30 AM
I gotta be honest, anybody that calls me a "land whale" to my face is going to get a flipper to the jaw. What, you think us fat guys are indestructible? We aren't Cape Buffaloes, gentlemen. As Correia said, modern bullets are loaded plenty hot enough to zip right through us. In my previously non-fat life I was still a pretty big guy, and I was shot with a 9mm FMJ round. It went through me like a hot knife through butter, and I can't imagine that the same wouldn't happen today.

redbearde
November 15, 2007, 12:46 PM
Timbo, the issue to me is would the JHP do the same thing while expanding and not penetrating as far. My thinking is that it wouldn't do so as much. Shrug. hot-knife-through-butter would be the plan. I'm a rather large guy, m'self. well......wide. I'm as tall as a point guard and as heavy as a defensive end.

It's easier to not get upset by the land-whale comments - it'd suck to bust a flipper on a jaw. It's even easier if you use them yourself. For instance, I was thinking of responding with, "fear not! I don't like to beach myself because I don't need folks trying tp push me into the water..."

Correia
November 15, 2007, 12:48 PM
I only weigh 300 pounds, so I'm probably not a land whale. Maybe a land manatee though...

ozwyn
November 15, 2007, 12:51 PM
Somehow, somewhere there is a joke in this thread about a man going into a gun store and buying hollowpoint ammo for nookie value. Unintended consequences of a different kind? :D

KelTecian
November 15, 2007, 12:58 PM
I wish I had problems with my old lady like yall have...lucky guys lol

My only problem is she can out shoot me with a 400 dollar glock vs. my 1200 dolar 1911...I'm a turd

ShooterMcGavin
November 15, 2007, 03:50 PM
The GF and I argued about CCW'ing ...
My suggestion: Enjoy that type of argument!!!! Not just because she is comfortable with guns AND she carries (:)), but also because she is smart/strong enough to call you to task.

Consider this... If a FMJ round passes through the attacker and keeps going, it has not expelled all of it's energy into the subject. While that's only one consideration regarding ammo performance, it is part of the equation.

If I were in your position, I would certainly be saying "yes dear, you are right dear", because I think she is right.

Aguila Blanca
November 15, 2007, 05:25 PM
Is it irresponsible to not use highly frangible ammo in a SD gun.
Who cares? The Hydra-Shok ammo you just started to carry is hollow-point, expanding -- it is not even a little bit frangible, let alone "highly" frangible. Which means an answer to your stated question is irrelevant to your discussion with the GF.

Now -- what was your real question?

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