[webuyit]

We just purchased these and don't know whether to sell them outright or to put them in an auction or even what they are worth. A friend who is an expert on furniture and a gun collector for a hobby looked at them and said they are from 1860 to 1880 by the construction, etc. but that is all we know. We paid a pretty penny, but think there is room for profit. Anyone know anything else about these, or what we can do with them? I have photos in an album at the following website dueling.shutterfly.com or you might have to do http://dueling.shutterfly.com - there is no www needed.

[Jim K]

The key identification points on any antique gun of that type are the lockplate markings (if any) and the markings on the top of the barrel (if any). Unfortunately, you have not pictured those areas.

The buttstock looks typical of French work around 1815, and I believe the guns were converted from flintlock, possibly in the 1850's. There is no reason to think they were not made as duellers, but there seems to me to be a mixture of styles that is puzzling. One anomaly for duellers is the sights - duelling pistols had no sights as the rules prohibited them. I wonder if they were added later when the guns were converted.

There appear to be several hands at work here. I don't get the feeling that the person who did the fine checkering on the grips was the same person who did the rather crude carving on the rest of the stock. It is like looking at a painting done by DaVinci, Norman Rockwell, and Walt Disney, all mixed together.

Again speculation (mine is as good as anyone else's) but here is a possible scenario: The guns started out about 1815 as French flintlock duellers. Maybe they were captured in war, but they came to England. Sometime in the 1850's the owner decided to have the "old guns" modernized by converting them to percussion and installing sights to turn them into "gentleman's pistols" for sport or defense. Then they were taken to the Orient (India?) where a local artist added the elaborate sideplate work and he or someone else did the less refined carving.

OK, that was fun guessing, but I really hope someone comes up with something more definitive.

Jim

[Jim Watson]

Agree that they were "percussioned" but although the carving seems not up to the chequering, it looks all of a piece to me, in relief over much of the area. Not everybody fought by the Clonmel Code and I doubt rifling, sights, and hair (single set) triggers would bother a Frenchie.

[Jim K]

I have not seen many French duelling pistols, but none had sights, and the pictures in several books of duelling pistols (French, English, German) show them without sights. Remember, in the prelude to a duel, the challenger provided both weapons, but the challenged picked the one he would use. So any advantage, like secret rifling, would work both ways. A good picture or an examination should be able to tell if the sights are original.

Jim

[Jim Watson]

I am hardly an expert on guns of the period, but I think that modern romanticism calls a lot of cased pairs "duelers" no matter how configured. Plainly visible rifling and set triggers in this case.

[Jim K]

One characteristic of duelling pistols are that they have no silver plating, no shiny parts. The last thing a dueller wanted was having a silver plaque on his own pistol shine in his eyes at the critical moment. Other characteristics of English duellers were a smooth bore (some French duellers were rifled) and absence of sights. They also were made to "point" well. Handling a duelling pistol is like handling a fine shotgun. It comes up naturally and seems to almost aim itself.

Duellers are also the product of meticulous craftsmanship. Only the wealthy fought duels and only the wealthy bought duelling pistols.

Guns with silver or shiny brass fittings are more likely to be what were called "gentleman's pistols", also sold cased in pairs.

By the time of the percussion cap, duelling was on its way out, and by the 1860's it was banned and the ban enforced in almost all countries. Hamilton-Burr aside, duelling was never very common in the American colonies or the later United States. There were "duels" (so-called) in the American west, but they were fought with few, if any, rules. Sometimes the weapons were sawed off shotguns, revolvers, or repeating rifles, hardly in accord with the "Code Duello."

The above is why I suggested that the conversion was done in the 1860 era, and also because the hammer engraving is similar to that used on the "Enfield" rifle muskets of that period.

Jim

[daniel (australia)]

According to the French Duelling Code, as reported by Millingen in 1841:

"The sight of the pistol should be fixed, and not more than fifteen lines difference be allowed in the length of the barrel: it is also desirable that the barrel should not be rifled, and that the pistols should be of a similar description"

In other words neither the presence of sights nor rifling necessarily indicates they aren't duellers. They certainly are of French style, and I'm inclined to agree that they are early 19th century flintlocks converted to percussion - the nipple plug looks like it is sitting in the original pan, and if it wasn't for lack of a good well-focussed pic of the whole lockplate I think you'd see evidence of the location of the original frizzen and its spring. Having said they are of French style similarly-styled pistols were also made in other places, such as Germany and even Britain, though of course in Britain a pistol with sights and rifling would not have conformed to the Code Duello drawn up at Clonmel.

FWIW duelling persisted until quite late in some parts of Europe - my great-grandfather fought a duel with swords sometime before WWI, while an officer in the cavalry of the Austro-Hungarian empire. The French were producing duelling pistols up until about the mid 19th century, but the style of these later pistols tends to be somewhat different, with half-length fore ends and fluted grips being typical.

[Jim K]

I confess to incipient senility, but I overlooked the obvious means of determining the country of origin, proof marks. If WeBuyIt will examine the pistols for proof marks (may require removal of the barrel and examination of the bottom) and picture them we might have a good handle on the origin. While Germany did not have national proof at the presumed time those pistols were made, France and England did. Belgium could have been in the process of instituting proof. If the pistol was converted in England, as I speculated, it should have been re-proved, but it might not have been.

Jim

[Ron James]

Most dueling pistols I've had the pleasure of examining were boxed and in excellent, almost like new condition. After all, if they were used at all , it was normally once in a lifetime. ( chuckle). They were then cleaned, re boxed and put away , never to be used again. In that time period, if going in harms way was in your future it was not unusual to have a set of pistols made. That is what these pistols look like to me. A pair , just a pair, of using pistols. Could be wrong, but they don't look like set of dedicated Dueling Pistols.

[Jim K]

Duelling pistols were, as noted, very expensive, and in the heyday of duelling in England, some gun makers actually rented out a pair of pistols for the day.

Obviously, I have never seen an advertisement for such a service, and I don't know if there was one, but I have always envisioned something like:

HURTZ RENT-A-DUEL

Rent a pair of pistols, cased
with balls, powder and all
accessories.

20 Guineas per day
10 Pence a shot

Pistols must be cleaned on
return or there will be an extra
charge. If the stocks are
damaged, there will be a
restocking charge.

Rent your duel from us,
and have a nice day.

Jim

[Ron James]

Jim, every time I read your last posting I have to laugh.