Misfires with CCI SP primers?


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xsquidgator
November 15, 2007, 01:45 PM
The last two range trips I've had disconcerting misfires, about one or two per 100 rounds of 9mm (124LRN if it matters). That is, the primer was struck but round did not go off, since the bullet was still in the case I blame the primer and not a problem with little/no powder charge.

The primer strike looked ok to me, but I didn't give it a close examination, basically once I looked at the round I ejected and saw a dimpled primer, I kicked it away forward of the firing line just in case it was a hangfire.

I wonder if this might be a light striker spring, since this has happened only with my Kahr CW9. I have two other 9s (Ruger P85 and SW3906, both conventional hammer SA/DA)that I usually shoot too, not as frequently as the Kahr though, and I don't think this has ever happened with them. I use the same CCI SP primers to make 357/38 and 380 also, and I don't recall ever having a misfire with those. However, my Kahr has NEVER misfired with any factory ammunition.

Does anyone here know of this kind of problem with CCI SP primers? I purchased them within the last 6 months. Or, would you say perhaps it's the striker-fired pistol (seems kind of likely I have to say)? I have a brick of Winchester SP primers I haven't gotten to yet and I'm kind of curious if I'll see this happen when I start shooting reloads made with those in my Kahr.

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strat81
November 15, 2007, 03:34 PM
I get light strikes occasionally with my Taurus 24/7 and CCI primers. Never had the problem with my Glock.

Jim Watson
November 15, 2007, 04:32 PM
What press? I got tired of SDBs and high primers.

CCI primers are the "hardest" I know of and striker fired guns seem sensitive to primers.

xsquidgator
November 15, 2007, 07:17 PM
Hmm, interesting about CCI primers being hard and others seeing the same kind of thing.

I'm using a Lee Classic Turret press with the "safety prime" (I think whatever the press-mounted primer dispenser is called). I made the rounds in question oh maybe a month or two ago, don't remember for sure but I don't remember ever having any trouble getting the primers to go all the way into the pockets.

FieroCDSP
November 15, 2007, 07:41 PM
I've never had a failure with CCI primers. Next time, wait for the hang-fire period to elapse and inspect it. Maybe the primer just wasn't seated.

copdills
November 15, 2007, 07:45 PM
never had a problem with sp cci's tagged for futher information

Crimp
November 15, 2007, 09:06 PM
I have never had a CCI primer misfire and I use CCI small pistol, large pistol, large pistol magnum and large rifle exclusively.

Steve C
November 16, 2007, 12:48 AM
CCI primers are a bit harder than the others but if shooting in an gun with unmodified action I've never had a problem. A lightened hammer spring can sometime fail to provide a strong enough strike to set them off reliably the first time.

As FieroCDSP suggested its most likely primers that didn't get fully seated into the bottom of the pocket. This happens sometimes if the loader gets a bit lazy with the priming stroke or if the primer pockets tight and the loader gets worried about crushing the primer and doesn't apply enough pressure to put the primer to the bottom.

A good way to check is to run the ammo through the pistol again and see if they fire. An improperly seated primer will usually fire on the second strike since the first strike usually will seat them fully. A bad primer won't go off no matter how many time you try.

xsquidgator
November 16, 2007, 10:32 AM
A good way to check is to run the ammo through the pistol again and see if they fire. An improperly seated primer will usually fire on the second strike since the first strike usually will seat them fully. A bad primer won't go off no matter how many time you try.

I think I'll try that. Someone else mentioned waiting for the "hangfire" time to elapse before picking one of these up, what would be considered a "safe" hangfire time? I think I recall hearing 30 seconds once but that wasn't from someone with much authority or knowledge.

strat81
November 16, 2007, 10:38 AM
I think I recall hearing 30 seconds once but that wasn't from someone with much authority or knowledge.
I've heard 30 seconds too.

Jim Watson
November 16, 2007, 10:41 AM
The old hangfire wait was 30 seconds. The idea was to wait out a true hangfire but not leave a round in a hot chamber long enough to cause a cookoff. I think the threat is overrated for modern ammo, I have had one (1.0) perceptable hangfire ever in 50+ years and that was just long enough for me to say Huh? Bang! A second, two at most.

High primers and springs reduced in "trigger jobs" are the leading suspects in misfires. But CCIs ARE "harder" and I have READ of Winchesters that were not compatible with striker fired guns. There were several reports on glocktalk that Glock 21s and .45s with WLPs don't always get along.

SASS#23149
November 16, 2007, 01:28 PM
I had to quit using CCI's because one of my old ruger revo's is lightly sprung and always had problems with CCI's.Other brands work fine in it.

SlamFire1
November 16, 2007, 08:23 PM
A bud of mine brought out his "new", but used L frame Smith and Wesson. It was a later model, had the frame mounted firing pin.

He started shooting his reloads and was getting miss fires. He was using CCI small pistol primers. I took his reloads and put them in my S&W M27. This is a stock box pistol with pinned barrel, recessed cylinder and the older hammer mounted firing pin. Every round went bang.

So I asked him, have you done anything to your pistol?

Well yes, he wanted to get a lighter trigger pull and had installed one of those reduced power mainsprings. The trigger pull on his pistol was nice and light, both in single action and in double action.

However, his configuration of pistol is such that it needed a strong mainspring to reliably ignite ammunition. The hammer momentum has to go through something, maybe a transfer bar, but definitely through a floating firing pin. My revolver, with a direct strike mechanism, delivered a harder sharper blow, and was less sensitive to mainspring strength.

We both decided that it was a stupid thing to get a lighter trigger pull at the expense of reliability. He installed the factory mainspring and was not having miss fires the next time I saw him.

Citroen
November 17, 2007, 06:09 PM
My revolvers all have very light triggers and a lot of action work. Using Federal primers they fire every time. With CCI lots of failure to fire, with Winchester a few failure to fire, with Wolf rarely failure to fire but I get some.

Conclusion: Switch to Federal primers if you want a light trigger and reliability.
John
Charlotte, NC

xsquidgator
November 17, 2007, 08:05 PM
Mea Culpa - I think it was me not fully seating the primers as SteveC and Fiero suggested. Went shooting today and had several more "click"s instead of a bang, this time with my S&W M&P45 also, as well as again today with the Kahr CW9. Instead of ejecting the round and continuing, I only moved the slide enough to recock and tried again. Each time the second time around, I got a "bang". Oh, and with the 45 "misfire" I looked and saw I was using Winchester primers, not the CCI (for some reason CCI LP primers have been mighty scarce around here).

I also had a related problem with my Ruger SP101 357. It jammed hard in the middle of a string of 5 shots, I had one hell of a time getting the action to move and to swing the cylinder out, it was STUCK. Finally got it open, and discovered I hadn't seated the primer on one of the rounds deeply enough, and the primer was sticking out enough to wedge in between the cylinder and the frame.

From here on out I'm pulling extra hard on the lever to seat my primers, and if there weren't other reasons already, this would be another one to use factory ammo for self-defense loadouts. I've loaded over 7,000 rounds since I started reloading almost a year ago, and it's only taken a very few misfires (due to my fault not seating the primers in good) to shake my confidence in my own rounds reliability. Maybe after another 500 fault-free ones again I'll trust them like factory ammo, for now my reloads are just for plinking and practice.

rcmodel
November 17, 2007, 08:17 PM
It's good reloading practice to inspect each round as you pack them up in boxes.

Look at each one, and you won't ever have a problem at the range.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

CZ57
November 18, 2007, 12:45 AM
High seated primers is most likely the culprit. In 9mm, I use nothing but CCI-500s. The spec depth you are looking for is .006" Min. You have a depth gauge on your dial caliper. With primers seated correctly WSPs have been the worst for me and I no longer use them.;)

Lloyd Smale
November 18, 2007, 07:55 AM
Most of my guns have actions jobs (revolvers) and will not run ccis reliably. I have had many problems with them in the past and would NEVER use a cci primer in any gun that was used for defense or my life was dependent on. For those guns its a strict diet of federal primers.

ftierson
November 18, 2007, 02:14 PM
I have used CCI primers for most of my life and I have never had any problems with them igniting any ammo that I've loaded (for SP primers, that includes mostly 9x19mmP, but also .380ACP, 9x18mm Mak., .38 S&W Special and .357 Mag).

Just out of curiosity, what powder were you using?

Did you pull the misfiring rounds apart to see if the powder or primer might have been contaminated with oil or some other liquid, or if the flash hole might have been plugged with tumbling media?

It is certainly possible that there could be a slight problem with the production of a small lot of primers (from any manufacturer), but that's certainly not the first thing that I'd suspect with CCI primers...

Forrest

xsquidgator
November 18, 2007, 04:45 PM
Forrest-
I was using W231 powder. I really think it was an issue of not-fully-seated primers, since I had other misfires yesterday that went off the 2nd time, and I also found another single round with the primer not quite in all the way. For pistol I tumble mine with the old primer still in, so I'm pretty sure the flash hole wasn't blocked. And I can't guarantee it, but I'm still quite sure no oil got into the primer or the powder.

I'll just pull harder on the press handle when seating primers, that's all. I've used almost entirely CCI primers up to now, and never had this problem until now. Besides, my Lee manuals say something about only using CCI and Winchester primers in the Lee primer feed. I'm sure the others are ok (I've tried Federal primers with rifle) but I kind of like sticking with one or two brands, and I don't think this problem is the primer's fault.

SlamFire1
November 20, 2007, 10:15 AM
My revolvers all have very light triggers and a lot of action work. Using Federal primers they fire every time. With CCI lots of failure to fire, with Winchester a few failure to fire, with Wolf rarely failure to fire but I get some.


Most of my guns have actions jobs (revolvers) and will not run ccis reliably. I have had many problems with them in the past and would NEVER use a cci primer in any gun that was used for defense or my life was dependent on. For those guns its a strict diet of federal primers.

I think this is gonzo logic, to alter a firearm to where the reliability is marginal. Yes, I love crisp light triggers and a smooth action. But as long as the trigger release does not have any creep, you can get excellent accuracy from a heavier trigger. Like a five pound single action trigger. You just have to work more on that take up and follow through.

What gets me is the primer manufacturers react to complaints by folks with out of tolerance firearms and mess up perfectly good products. Winchester altered their primers, to make them more sensitive, and now the brass colored Winchesters pierce with amazing ease, at least in the rifle calibers.

If the trigger job means I cannot use factory ammunition, because it possible it will misfire, than the trigger job is no good. What primer the factory uses is something beyond my control, factory ammunition is liable to use anyone’s primers, from anywhere. They buy from the lowest bidder, and it is OK as long as it meets “SAAMI” specs.

First and foremost a firearm ought to go bang each and every time I pull the trigger. I gave up lighting mainsprings because I want reliability more than anything else.

Of course, to each there own.

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