[Shawnee]

Hi Y'All...

I really hate to show my dumbitude but I really gotta ask something.

The adjective "tactical" is thrown around so liberally and applied to so many things from pistols to pajamas - to the point that I really don't have any idea what the moniker "tactical" is supposed to tell me about something when I read it. I strongly suspect the term "tactical" as applied to most weapons and accessories, is mostly some late-model Hollywood or Marketing Dept. or Military hogwash.

But I'm certainly willing to learn if anyone wants to enlighten this poor farm boy. :confused::)

[The Lone Haranguer]

I can take or leave "tactical," but it bothers me when it is emblazoned on every blasted thing, like this:

http://www.gundirectory.com/guns/20232-1.jpg

The only difference between that gun and a standard 3913 is TACTICAL!!! ... and an extra C-note on the price tag. :rolleyes:

[Trebor]

I strongly suspect the term "tactical" as applied to most weapons and accessories, is mostly some late-model Hollywood or Marketing Dept. or Military hogwash.

Yep. Give it a few more years until the term is so totally worn out so that it's not only meaningless but has become even more of a joke and they'll be some new term invented to replace it.

[pax]

Doesn't tell you much useful, but generally it means the item was designed with personal defense in mind, and not just for target shooting or range play.

pax

[wheelgunslinger]

Because people who read lots of Dick Marcinko and Mack Bolan books think they know what the high speed/low drag special operations types use. And, they want to be those guys.

Apparently, they use all black everything with cheap black high denier cordura cases and everything has an accessory rail.

Nothing ever really gets tailored to mission specifics. It's just all black and modular. They're that good.

Sharp marketing types have zeroed in on these guys since they're the ones who never/seldom train but buy lots of stuff.
I'm a little disappointed I didn't think of it.

[The Lone Haranguer]

Because people who read lots of Dick Marcinko and Mack Bolan books think they know what the high speed/low drag special operations types use. And, they want to be those guys.
What about us low speed/high drag guys? Where does that leave us? :uhoh:

[Smokey Joe]

happens to words that get used for marketing hype, or generalized in common usage, or grabbed for effect by the news media.

"Tactical" used to have a fairly precise meaning, I expect having to do with being used by Special Forces or riot police.

Then the marketing gurus got hold of the word. Now, "tactical" as applied to gear doesn't have much of a meaning at all, except that the gear in question is probably black, pricey, and has lots of extra doo-dads, the meaning or use of which may or may not be clear to the owner.

Nowadays I wouldn't call something "tactical" except as a way to make fun of the item in question.

"Assault Weapon" still does have a specific meaning, but you wouldn't know that from hearing the ten o'clock anchor person throw the word around. News people seem to feel that they are ordained by God to change the language however they see fit.

("When I use a word," said Humpty Dumpty grandly, "it means exactly what I intend it to mean, no more and no less."--From Alice's Adventures Through the Looking Glass by Lewis Carroll)

[DMK]

The adjective "tactical" is thrown around so liberally and applied to so many things from pistols to pajamas - to the point that I really don't have any idea what the moniker "tactical" is supposed to tell me about something when I read it.Another term like this is 'Milspec'.

Milspec used to mean, "meets a military specification", which would then reference a specific govt. specification document drafted when the items were requested, designed and procured.

Now it means "something that looks like something that we saw in a pic of guys in Iraq once".

If someone ever tells you something is milspec, ask them for the reference number to the specifications they are referring to. If nobody knows the reference number to the military spec that the items is supposed to adhere to, then how could they have possibly met the specifications in the first place?

[ravencon]

We live in a world where marketing execs get paid more than engineers and QC managers--hype and style trump substance every time.

Why should the gun world be any different?

[strat81]

What about us low speed/high drag guys? Where does that leave us?
We're probably in the schmactical category referenced in the thread title.


And no thread about "tactical" would be complete without these guys!
http://www.extremeshockusa.com/gfx_splash/top_2.jpg

[ClickClickD'oh]

What about us low speed/high drag guys? Where does that leave us?

High Speed/Low Drag = Tactical
Low Speed/High Drag = Fortified

I've been fortified for years now.

[Smurfslayer]

What about us low speed/high drag guys? Where does that leave us?

With Bling ! :D

[RNB65]

Black = Tactical.

It's a simple as that. Take an old Smith Mod 10, throw some black rubber gripes on it, and you've got a tactical handgun.

Duck tape a Surefire flashlight (or other thin, black light) under the barrel and you've got a tacticool handgun.

For the ultimate in tacticool, you got to get yourself one of these puppies (bipod is optional):

http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y141/nitesite9/tacticoolAR15.jpg

[The Bushmaster]

Hummmm...Would my 42 year old Colt .357 magnum SAA fit the bill as a "tactical" weapon?:D It shoots copper coated lead pills fast enough to kill most living orginizms on this planet...:neener: Has saved my life a few times and a couple other people as well...:rolleyes: "Tactical"?? I wouldn't be caught dead (probably would be) with a flashlight attached to my defence handgun. A bright light. What a target that makes...:banghead:

Tripod optional? In the case of the above set up a tripod would be necessary to support that pile of imagination...:) RNB65...Good representation...You didn't forget the video camera did you?

[woodybrighton]

mil spec that will be the SA80 then :eek:
well a fine range rifle and would embarrass most ar's on a range especially the LSW
just fell apart when carried

oh the joy of having the local ira terrorist as the susat sight fell off for no obvious reason :( remark "we stole some of those but don't use them cause there s****

[siglite]

My tactical stapler is awesome. I only paid $87.95 for it, so prices aren't inflated. It's good duty gear! It's black! It has grippy stuff! It has a modular smash suppressor! It opens up into a nunchaku like close-combat weapon in the horrifying event that you run out of ammo for it. It holds like, 600 rounds. Worth every penny!

I saw swat guys using them.


:D


And I heard .mil is going to them next year.

;)

[Shawnee]

Does this mean my .44 Super Blackhawk is "tactical" ??? :confused:




:rolleyes:

[Mat, not doormat]

One of these days, I'd like to go to one of those 3gun matches, the ones that usually turn into a bunch of swat wannabes with tacticool ARs, shotguns with mag tubes longer than the barrel, and pistols so bulked up with gizmos that they make a Mk 23 USSOCOM look like a keltec.

I think I'd take a 1911, an M1 carbine, and a winchester 1897. Maybe I'd dress in green, instead of black, and use canvas instead of nylon gear.

If they're being silly and playing dress up, then I can too, right?

~~~Mat

[Mat, not doormat]

Shawnee: The single action revolver was the mother of the tactical reload. The cavalry troopers that used them refused to switch to the fast loading top break S&Ws, because when they needed to do a tacload, the top breaks threw the good cartridges out with the empties.

I suppose that the super blackhawk, with its low hammer for easy one handed thumbing, upgraded sights, and all that could rate it as tactical. <G>

[SIRVEYR666]

This is the guy that buys all that "tactical" stuff:

67373

[El Tejon]

Tactical was used for police chiefs who did not like "fighting" or "combat".

Not new for office Eloi types to be adverse to "fighting" or "combat", just look at what happened with the Southwest Pistol League.:D

Shawnee, yes, at one time single action revolvers were all the tactical rage and were used in many, many fights.:)

[ClickClickD'oh]

This is the guy that buys all that "tactical" stuff:

Jin-Roh, decent movie... horrible source of Cos Players.

[Dr.Rob]

Do a search on tactical, its worth a few laughs.

To me, 'tactical' mean flat black and costs more.

Other things, like a TAC -Light have more of a direct application, so I don't mind an accessory rail being called a tac-rail.

But tactical briefcases and day planners with nomex and cordura hides and kevlar business card holders, is pretty stupid.

[sm]

Operator is gearing up to the next new buzzword.

Break out the Sharpie Markers and Camo Labels and fit a label onto a Lorcin, write "Operator" on the Label and one is the baddest thing since TEEM SEEL discovered Joy Sticks.

[Shawnee]

Hmmm. If "tactical" = "black", that would certainly explain most of the suppers my ex-wife cooked for me. :D

[bcp]

From:
http://concise.britannica.com/ebc/article-9382446/weapons-system

" Weapons are usually divided into two categories, strategic and tactical. Strategic weapons strike at the seat of an enemy's military, economic, and political power, targeting cities, factories, military bases, transportation and communications networks, and seats of government. Most nuclear weapons are part of strategic weapons systems. Tactical weapons are designed instead for offensive or defensive use at relatively short range—for example, guided missiles intended as antiaircraft and antitank weapons, or other weapons used in aerial and naval combat. "
--------------
To call a pistol "tactical" seems to mean there might be a "strategic" type of pistol that must be distinguished from the "tactical" pistol.

[JHansenAK47]

The word tactical comes from tactic. So tactical employment is how you use something. Kind of just mutated to mean things that have value to be employed tactically. BTW A camoflauged rifle is more tactical than a black one. That's why snipers and spec ops paint their weapons. So one could say if your rifle had a reduced siloutte it would be tactical. A black rifle would be tactical because it is nonreflective but not tactical because it still has a definite siloutte.

[siglite]

Hey BCP, where can I get one of those strategic pistols? Is there a tax stamp?

:D

[bcp]

"Strategic weapons strike at ... transportation..."

Strategic Pistol
http://images.hugi.is/saga/121640.jpg

[Slugless]

"Tactical" = "Wanker"

[The Lone Haranguer]

And there are times when it is used wholly inappropriately. The Rock Island Armory 1911 comes in a version with an ambidextrous extended thumb safety, a beavertail grip safety and high(er) visibility sights. How do these features make it tactical? :confused::rolleyes:

[SoCalShooter]

You get tactical by the quad root of something useful ending up then multiplying by stupid and adding the product by the amount of unecessary accessories you just overpaid for. :O


P.S.
Whilst hunting in the lower Arizona area I do wear a drop leg pistol rig on my right side and a left leg rig both of which are extremely convenient.

[skinewmexico]

I second the word operator. You can see that coming from a mile away.

[The Bushmaster]

SIRVEYR666...That's what a "mall ninja" looks like...Infact, that IS a "mall ninja"...

[44AMP]

And then the marketing dept gets ahold of the slang and puts it on everything!

Once upon a time, you had tactical gear. The gear itself wasn't tactical, it was what you wore when you went on a tactical operation (field work requiring the use of tactics). LRRP patrols were tactical. Standing a guard post at a basic training base is not.

The other (and likely biggest boost) to the proliferation of the word, and the black crap that is all the rage today comes from the SWAT teams. Special Weapons And Tactics. Therefore, if it was something that looked like it was used by the SWAT (who wear black ninja looking clothes), then it must be tactical.

[Correia]

One of these days, I'd like to go to one of those 3gun matches, the ones that usually turn into a bunch of swat wannabes with tacticool ARs, shotguns with mag tubes longer than the barrel, and pistols so bulked up with gizmos that they make a Mk 23 USSOCOM look like a keltec.

I think I'd take a 1911, an M1 carbine, and a winchester 1897. Maybe I'd dress in green, instead of black, and use canvas instead of nylon gear.

If they're being silly and playing dress up, then I can too, right?

Says the person who's obviously never shot in a 3gun competition in their life...

You know, you wouldn't be able to display your ignorance any more effectively unless you had a giant neon sign, flashing DON'T HAVE A CLUE, welded to your forehead.

An average 3gunner would absolutely smoke the average gunboard poster in almost any form of shooting imaginable. (yes, because we usually know how to shoot accurate slow fire too) And unlike a lot of posers that post crap online, you can see exactly how good we shoot when the match scores are posted.

See, an average gunboard poster can talk all sorts of smack. 3gunners can't, because come next weekend, everybody knows exactly what we can do on demand. And timers don't lie.

And I don't know what kind of matches you're attending, but I don't see any SWAT wannabes, unless they're on a SWAT team. You're not really hurting my feelings by not liking how I dress (and my stuff is mostly brown, because I live in the desert, black gets hot in the sun). In fact I don't think you're capable of hurting my feelings, because I actually know how to shoot.

We tend to utilize our equipment to the best of our abilities while under stress, and equipment includes gear and the carrying of ammunition. I'm sure you would look real professional out there shooting a 24 round shotgun stage and loading out of your pockets. Oh, wait, you've got canvas. I don't have a friggin' clue how that makes you morally superior. Try hemp.

The stuff we slap on our guns works, or we don't win, and when we don't win, we change our stuff. If a hardcore 3gunner has a lot of stuff stuck on his gun, it is because he can use it to dominate over you until you collapse into a pathetic pile of mush with the consistency of mashed potatos.

And I've won 3gun matches with a single stack 1911, a pump 870 with 2 shot magazine extension, and a FAL I built out of spare parts.

And good luck with that .30 Carbine when we're shooting targets from 400-600 meters, bub.

Yep, I'm pretty sick of the word tactical too. Just like has been stated on about 500 other threads on this same exact topic. You know what makes me even sicker though? Listening to the self-righteous make crap up about other bunches of shooters, as if somehow because their stuff is more traditional, that somehow makes them morally superior.

Pretty wood and a nice blue job doesn't make you a good shooter. Being a good shooter makes you a good shooter. I've had a few crusty folks at the range mock my gear while I'm unpacking, because it isn't traditional. They usually stop when I beat them like rented mules, shoot faster, and more accurately than they could ever dream of, and manipulate my gun in a manner that makes them look my arthritic grandma trying to get the lid off of a jar of mayonnaise.

I don't even shoot Open pistol. Those are the guys with "pistols so bulked up with gizmos that they make a Mk 23 USSOCOM look like a keltec". However an Open A class shooter can hit about 5 times as many targets as you can, in about half the time, and reload in the time it takes you to undo the thumbsnap on your basket weave holster. And before you get all huffy, most Open class guys would pummel you just as bad with a regular gun, because we like to shoot those too. (the word for that kind of gun is Limited. Like your imagination).

[Whind Soull]

I can't remember where, but a while back I saw some place that was selling "tactical soap."

IIRC, it was a bar of soap that was "matte toned and scentless" :scrutiny:

[nero45acp]

The term "tactical" is to firearms today, what "space age" was to appliances and electronics in the 60's.


nero

[GreyJacket]

There are those that pretends to be tactical, and some that are really tactical.

GLOCK is my definition of tactical pistol. Anything more is tactical-overload.

OD is excessive.
"Tactical" emblazed all over the slide and name (USP Tactical) is excessive.
Unnecessary slide grips serrations is excessive.

But the term tactical is not all marketing:
1. Matte black don't reflect lights.
2. Night sights for low-light operations.
3. Rail for lazer and light attachments.

[takhtakaal]

Cool thread! (With a nick like mine, it seems a good place to say hi)

[TonyB]

Tactical=so yesterday
Today=Uber-tactical:scrutiny:
if black = tactical,my first girlfriend was very tactical( in a Madagascar way):cool:

[TimboKhan]

I would like to see what strategic clothing, holsters and accessories would look like before I commit to owning a strategic pistol. If it isn't cooler than the tactical stuff, forget it.

Seriously, I hate the over-tacticalization. We have a lot of good gear available now that we didn't have before, but I also think we have attracted a very annoying crowd along with it. Call me elitist, but I don't want to share my space with a SWAT wanna-be.

[skinewmexico]

Oh man, I shoot 3 gun in blue jeans and a golf shirt, do I have to quit now? And I had an ulterior motive for putting an extended mag tube on my M2; it gets shot a lot more at quail than it does in 3 gun. I just used 3 gun to make sure it would run right, under pressure, and in a hurry.

[DMK]

I can't remember where, but a while back I saw some place that was selling "tactical soap."

IIRC, it was a bar of soap that was "matte toned and scentless"With no suds to reveal your position!

[DMK]

I don't even shoot Open pistol. Those are the guys with "pistols so bulked up with gizmos that they make a Mk 23 USSOCOM look like a keltec". However an Open A class shooter can hit about 5 times as many targets as you can, in about half the time, and reload in the time it takes you to undo the thumbsnap on your basket weave holster. 'course none of those guns wold work really well as CCW, which is what the average civilian needs in the real world.

Competition and range guns have a lot less compromise to deal with so they can afford a bunch of poky, heavy, catchy stuff hanging off them.

No doubt they can shoot though. I've never shot three gun(I really wish they did that around here), but I have done USPSA. Those red-dot, compensated, huge bell shaped magwell, race guns really clean up. I find it kinda boring to watch while I'm waiting for my turn actually. I'm much more impressed by the guy who shows up with a bone stock Kimber and gets an 80% because he's limited by his 7 round single stack mags. I just prefer shooting with something I can actually carry under my shirt every day, but that's just me. Everyone pays their entrance fee and gets to get what they want out of it.

And before you get all huffy, most Open class guys would pummel you just as bad with a regular gun, because we like to shoot those too. (the word for that kind of gun is Limited. Like your imagination). Nobody is slamming the shooters, just the gear.

[strat81]

the ones that usually turn into a bunch of swat wannabes
they're being silly
DMK, it sure seems like Mat is making fun of the shooters, not the gear. But, I think Correia summed it all up quite well.

[steelyblue]

I love guns and shooting, and I am new to this sight. I think the "name" is to sell, so more power to the marketting depts. Capitalism rules! As for the moderator getting his/her panties in a wad over a guys opinion, I don't know about "superman" crying like a girl. j/k

BTW, It's just an opinion in fun. I don't shoot professionally, I just shoot for fun. I am, however, a 7th grade school teacher who sees kids act like that post every day.

[repo]

You have to keep in mind much of the cheesy "tactical" stuff caters to airsoft people. It's not actually meant for grown ups but for 13-14 year olds playing airsoft games. It's unfortunate that they lump it in with the real gun stuff, like in the Cheaper Than Dirt catalog for example.

[siglite]

Hmm... I shot my one and only three-gun in cargo pants (I think they were tan) and a t-shirt. I shot it with my CCW pistol, in my CCW holster (which has a thumb-break strap) my home-defense AR with A2 irons, and my pump benelli nova. I did ok in it. Everyone was shooting very normal looking pistols, very normal looking shotguns (lots of 870s) and a whole variety of rifles. I think the guy that won it had an AR with an aimpoint. One guy did pretty good with a mini-14.

We weren't shooting to 1k yds either. We had 4 plates at about 125yds at the end of the rifle stage.

Wanna know what the biggest challenge was? It had very little at all to do with gear. They intentionally put the rifle stage (was last) about 100yds from the shotgun stage. Most of us ran pretty hard from shotguns to rifles. So the real challenge was shooting at those plates while breathing hard and your pulse pumping like a bass drum. Space gear wouldn't have overcome that.

[Shawnee]

I suspect Nero has it right.

"Tactical", "space-age", "all-around", "ready-made". "heavy-duty", "all-terrain", NEO-, Hyper-, yadda, yadda - all terms that get so bandied about not only by knowledgeable people but also by hordes of knowledgeable-wannabes, that they become essentially meaningless and often mindless.

:rolleyes:

[justinlemieux]

actually i think tactical means it has a minimum of 14 linear feet of rails on it

[ugaarguy]

I love guns and shooting, and I am new to this sight. I think the "name" is to sell, so more power to the marketting depts. Capitalism rules! As for the moderator getting his/her panties in a wad over a guys opinion, I don't know about "superman" crying like a girl. j/k
You would do well to learn the difference between expression of opinion, and denigration of a group of shooters based upon their dress, gear, and sport.

BTW, It's just an opinion in fun. I don't shoot professionally, I just shoot for fun. I am, however, a 7th grade school teacher who sees kids act like that post every day.
Unlike you, and unlike me, Correia actually does shoot professionally since part of his job is training military & law enforcement. I could make the assumption that you shouldn't be an educator because you don't the difference between the words sight and site*. If I did so you'd be offended, and rightfully so, since I don't know you from Adam and I would be insulting you as a professional educator based upon part of one post you've written. That's exactly how you treated Correia in your post above. You'd do well to read his post history and learn about the man before you insult him.




* I love guns and shooting, and I am new to this sight.
We're posting on a site (short for website), not a sight.

[OEF_VET]

Ya know what I hate about "tactical?" People.

Oh, wait. I just hate people. Nevermind. Go back to your regularly scheduled programming.

[Apple a Day]

I think the criteria should be whether or not you would still buy it if they painted it blue and called it "Smurfy" instead of "tactical". Imagine a couple of gunshop "operators" getting together and comparing all of their smurfy gear. I'd love to hear that conversation. Guys for whom such stuff is their work equipment would do it with a straight face and focus on the fuctionality of the gear.
Seriously, though, why the hate? If some guy wants to hang a bunch of stuff off his guns then that's his business. I can't fathom why people collect stamps but people do it. Collected stamps have no functional use. Stamps on an envelope are being used so I see the point. Some people lick their stamps but there's no reason to make fun of those who don't. Let's face it, there's a high fantasy factor for a lot of people who own guns. Some fantasize about being super-operator-tactical. Let them have their fun. They ain't hurtin' nobody. If they bug you then plop down next to them at the range and outshoot them.
As for me, I'm milSURP instead of miSPEC. Most of my gear looks like I raided Stalin's dumpster. I'm a poor untactical schoolteacher and I happen to like nostalgic stuff. Stamp collectors can't fathom why I'd buy a Nagant revolver, either. To each his own. I also like to shoot so I spend my meager budget on ammo instead of Smurfy add-ons. To each his own.
Everybody spread love.

[Shawnee]

Hello ugaarguy...

With all respects, your friend Mr. Correia's lengthy, caustic diatribe is not in any way a model of diplomacy. It's negativity and animosity greatly exceeds that of Mr. SteelyBlue's post.
Had Mr. Correia wanted to make the point that some of the "tactical" crowd are indeed, quite skilled and thus people should not assume ALL "tactical" fans are just S.W.A.T. wannabes - he could have done so without ANY of the hyper-sensitive invective his post contains.
If he is, in fact, a top-rung spokesman for the "tactical" crowd and that particular post is an example of the highest level of their attitude, I doubt their critics' opinion of them has been elevated to any degree.

Local opinion may vary.

[Koos Custodiet]

>if black = tactical,my first girlfriend was very tactical

I think you mean "tactile" :-)

Someone (Jeff Cooper?) said something like "Strategy works to the point where you have the girl in the car and you're parked somewhere dark. From there on it's all tactics".

[Shawnee]

"Someone (Jeff Cooper?) said something like "Strategy works to the point where you have the girl in the car and you're parked somewhere dark. From there on it's all tactics".

Uh... does anyone know where I can get some "strategic" instruction ???

[wideym]

Tactical and Operator are buzz words used to sell some interesting gadget, gun, cloths, etc.

I have a friend in 5th group who told me vendors send them freebies all the time hoping for a good review they can print in advertising. Some vendors go so far as to say "used by SF and elite units" if their package was not returned or the unit tried it out once, even if never used twice.

Some high speed former military i.e. SF and Seals try to cash in on their former carrers by forming tacticool companys that sell only the highest speed crap that only comes in black.

I will admit that I was bitten by the tacticool bug until my Platoon leader called me a Gear Queer for wanting matching SpecOPs mag pouches.(I still bought the pouches):)

[Just Jim]

A tactical tool suggest that it is used to help you with your tactics in dealing with a situation. If you haven't developed an understanding that you need a tactical plan in a defensive situation then all the tactical tools in the world mean nothing to you. The tools say tactical but they may be worthless for your planed defense.

jim

[Art Eatman]

Seeing somebody claim they can take a GI Carbine to a three gun match and be competitive betrays the level of knowledge about Carbines and three gun matches.

I dunno how many rounds of Carbine ammo I've shot. I used to "liberate" 600-round canisters from the arms shack and go down to the beach at Inchon and use my M2 on seagulls and suchlike. Fast forwarding a bunch of years, and I've messed around with a few M1 Carbines with both GI ammo and handloads.

I ain't gonna select one for a three gun match. I really don't like being laughed at for being dumber'n hammered dirt.

"Tactical" in the world of competition, whether shooting at paper/steel targets or at people (A gunfight is competion, ain't it?) comes from the dictionary.

"Tactical" in a lot of magazine ads is commonly a bunch of Madison Avenue Technique hype.

Only the spelling is the same...

Art

[steelyblue]

"We're posting on a site (short for website), not a sight."




Sorry, site is correct. BTW, I teach science, of which I have 89 hours of advanced science. Good slam though. A bit overboard, but a good slam none the less.

I don't get offended by words, but bust out a stick or stone and I'll shoot you dead!!! Otherwise let me call the wahhhhmbulance for you when someone says something that you feel you have to waste many words defending what you believe. If your good at 3gun, cool. I could care less about a compitition that I know nothing about. I'm new to the SITE, and as a moderator, I didn't sense any level of maturaty coming from the post on which I commented. I would, however, like to see a 3gun match sometime, now that my interest has been aroused by the NICE people on this forum. BTW if you thought I was attacking anybody then I hope you don't hurt people that are not a threat!

[Slugless]

Smurfy?

Dude, that's funny.

[George Hill]

'course none of those guns wold work really well as CCW, which is what the average civilian needs in the real world.

Competition and range guns have a lot less compromise to deal with so they can afford a bunch of poky, heavy, catchy stuff hanging off them.
You guys don't know Larry Correia. Last time I saw him shoot 3Gun, he was using a very plain jane 1911 with nothing much more custom than a beavertail.... he used to spank other 3Gunners with a rattle trap Remington 870. His Uber Cool tactical rifle was an FAL with iron sights. You know what? He did exceptionally well. The 1911 was his daily carry gun. His shotgun was his home defense gun. His rifle was nothing special... he just liked it.
And he's absolutely right. 3Gunners are very serious shooters and they take their skill development very seriously. They also take their gear seriously. If something makes them faster, they use it. If something slows them down, they discard it. If that something is "Tactical" then so be it. Last 3Gun I went to, I didn't see anyone looking like an Collin Ferrel's SWAT stunt double.
I did see a lot of T-shirts and ball caps though. I wore a cowboy hat.
And you guys are saying your sick of Tactical? Come on... You guys are 8 years late to this party... I started it a long time ago:
http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=31150&highlight=SICK+OF+TACTICAL

[Slugless]

8 years? Enough time for "tactical" to evolve to "tacti-cool" and "ubertactical?"

When is the word "nano" going to enter the firearms world?

[zinj]

Nano-Tactical! (http://www.naaminis.com/bwmm.html)

[Correia]

As for the moderator getting his/her panties in a wad over a guys opinion, I don't know about "superman" crying like a girl. j/k

Okay, guy who's been here for a couple of days and has all of sixteen posts, let me try to help you out here.

I'm not acting in a moderatorial fashion. I'm just posting as a regular guy. As a rule of thumb, anytime a poster brings up the fact somebody they disagree with is a moderator is so that they can try to drum up some sympathy from the crowd, by basically saying and "oooohh... the moderator is pickin' on me!"

The guy's opinion was just plain uneducated, and frankly embarrasing. There are a couple hundred of us on this board that happen to shoot 3gun, and I figured I would speak up for us. We're relatively normal.

And the last time I cried like a girl was when I wasn't paying attention and crushed my thumb in a Dillon RL550. :)

With all respects, your friend Mr. Correia's lengthy, caustic diatribe is not in any way a model of diplomacy. It's negativity and animosity greatly exceeds that of Mr. SteelyBlue's post. Most of my posts are lengthy because I post for fun, I'm a writer (we tend to be wordy), and I type 85 words a minute. I've never been accused of having diplomacy, but I am caustic, and have piles of animosity. Just ask the HK marketing department.

If he is, in fact, a top-rung spokesman for the "tactical" crowd and that particular post is an example of the highest level of their attitude, I doubt their critics' opinion of them has been elevated to any degree. I am an average 3gunner at best. I've been beaten soundly at every national level match I've ever been to. The only ones I've won have been at the local level. Nor do I claim to be a spokesman for anything except for myself.

But I absolutely despise when posters talk out their butts about topics that they have no clue what they're going on about.

I find that a lot of times when I disagree with somebody on a gunboard forum, the complaints are usually that I'm mean, and my posts are long. I don't really know what that has to do with the veracity of the post, but hey, whatever.

As for the Open class guns, (optics, compensators) they have absolutely nothing at all to do with "tactical" and the people that shoot them are actually the least likely to ever claim to be tactical. We usually refer to them as Gamers, and their Open guns don't claim to be for anything other than for gaming. The guns are built to win the game. Most of us shoot in a class where we shoot relatively normal guns.

Those Open guns are just as realistic though as Cowboy Action six shooters, and 30 pound benchrest guns. Those don't claim to be tactical either, but are built for a specific sport.

And interestingly enough, pretty much every military rifle out there is wearing the types of optics that were developed and popularized in competition first.

That said, an average 3gunner shoots so much better than the average gunboard poster that he would absolutely destroy them with a vengence terrible beyond your imagination. :)

[steelyblue]

I too am a man of many words. I sensed that you were as well and, frankly, I wanted to see if I could get you to post like that again!!lol. I post for fun as well and was not making a serious critisism. I'm just a guy who loves guns "and threadjacking on occasion." I hope you didn't take that badly, as I was just having fun.


As for the topic I thought maybe a Strategic Tactical Assault Milspec Spec Opp weapon may be the money maker of the future....lol Not everything that has these labels really fits the mold, but LORD to these companies make the bucks. I almost did'nt want to by my Kimber because it was only a Target model. Maybe I should have bought the Tactical....not

[flatdog]

Let's see now. I've lived through combat, " police only" survivalist, camo, tactical, and operator . With few exceptions they all equate to lower quality and higher priced items.

It makes me wonder how we ever defended the country, enforced the law or hunted deer without the appropriate cognomen on our equipment.

[RonE]

" #13
RNB65
Senior Member



Join Date: 04-19-06
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 2,763 Black = Tactical.

It's a simple as that. Take an old Smith Mod 10, throw some black rubber gripes on it, and you've got a tactical handgun.

Duck tape a Surefire flashlight (or other thin, black light) under the barrel and you've got a tacticool handgun.

For the ultimate in tacticool, you got to get yourself one of these puppies (bipod is optional):


__________________
"If I could have gotten 51 votes in the Senate of the United States for an outright ban, picking up every one of them . . . Mr. and Mrs. America, turn 'em all in, I would have done it." -- Senator Dianne Feinstein (D-CA) on 60 Minutes, February 5, 1995."

Wow! can you even find the place to put some bullets in that thing?

[sooner or later I'm gonna figure out how to quote someone on this forum]

[Zak Smith]

"Tactical" is an attribute that applies to behavior and tools which help you manipulate time and space to win a fight.

For anyone interested in reading more about 3-Gun, head over to THR's Competition Forum and search for old match reports. (You can search on my name and find a bunch of them.)

-z

[Slugless]

manipulate time and space to win a fight :eek: :eek: :eek:

Zak, for those of us who read sci-fi I think you've given us about the weirdest image possible of someone shooting a 3 gun match.

If you manipulate time enough, you'll arrive at the match wearing ODs, canvas web gear, and an M1 after all. I hope it's a Garand.

Your vehicle will be a cherry red telephone box. :D

[browningguy]

We live in a world where marketing execs get paid more than engineers and QC managers

As a VP Business Development that's the way I think it should be. After all, we're the guys who have to make up all kinds of crap so everyone else has a job.

[Zak Smith]

It is a funny image... but I didn't mean to imply that 3-Gun was "tactical" or make a connection between the two. I simply mentioned the 3-Gun match reports because there are some readers who aren't familiar with what they're really about.

I think the root of the complaint about the over-use of the word "tactical" comes from fuzzy thinking. Tactics is more about behavior, psychology, and problem-solving than the tools used. Tools used to achieve tactics can be well-suited or poorly-suited to the task, and that's how they should be evaluated, IMO.

-z

[Mat, not doormat]

Corriea, I'm sorry to have offended you. You're right, I've not shot a 3-gun match. They're not all that common around here. The two I've attended, (looking to see if it was something I wanted to do) didn't impress me. I am still interested, but would like to find better matches than the ones hosted by an unnamed local sportsmans' club to see what they're supposed to be like.

As for my being an ignorant web-board poster who can't shoot worth a d@mn, I'd disagree. Although three gun isn't my forte, I am a pretty decent cowboy action shooter. I've won a number of local matches, and was within a micron or two of the state championship this year. I can shoot fast, accurately, and I do it with iron sights. I can make a double barrel sing, and I'm not too shabby with a '97, either. As for my comment about the M1 Carbine, at the 3-gun match I attended, the most difficult shot I saw was a headshot on an IPSC silhouette at 100 yards. I can do that with the carbine. You're entirely right, though, if 600 meter shots were in evidence, the carbine would be about the last gun I'd pick. I'd be looking for an M1A, or some such.

Anyhow, by way of a peace offering, if you're ever in Ohio, let me know. I'll lend you whatever guns and gear you may need for a SASS match, and we'll see how you stack up. I'd be happy play the other way, for a 3-gun match, and see if you really can dominate over me until I collapse into a pathetic pile of mush with the consistency of mashed potatos. Should be fun. I imagine you'd beat me at your game, but not as badly as you might think. Although my original post was more than half joking, this one isn't.

~~~Mat
AKA Jerkline Jesse, SASS #64073

[Wayne G.]

The primary reason I sift through all the BS here is to find the contributions of Zak and Correia and others who have real-world experience that they are willing to share with others.

[tekarra]

RNB65,
I think I saw that on Weaponology last night.
Where is the lifting lug?

[Correia]

Mat, fair enough. I actually really like SASS. It isn't my thing, and I can't shoot a single action revolver worth a darn, but it is dang fun.