So why not a bottleneck cartridge in a revolver?


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gbran
November 16, 2007, 01:10 AM
We've gone to huge and powerfull straight walled cartirdges such as the 460 & 500 S&W magnums, but why not battlenecks? Seems we could have some wild wicked fast possibilities. Imagine a .45 diameter case swedged down to accept a .357 bullet, 50 cal to 40 cal, etc. 2500+ fps 150 to 200 grain bullets going fast and flat. The possibilities seem endless. I guess this would go a long way for the smaller/faster crowd. If you think your 180 grain 357 is ok for deer, imagine it being launched out of a .45 case.

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HammerBite
November 16, 2007, 01:17 AM
This is just a guess, but I suspect that when the round fires the pressure would try to straighten out the shoulder of the case, thereby wedging the case head against the recoil shield and tying up the gun.

gbran
November 16, 2007, 01:32 AM
The only round I'm familiar with is the 17hmr rimfire, which is a 22magnum necked down to the .17. There have been some reports of case splitting, but it certainly solves the mechanical question as to whether or not you can chamber and fire bottlenecks.

Kurac
November 16, 2007, 01:38 AM
Don't forget about the .22 Jet

XavierBreath
November 16, 2007, 01:40 AM
Ah young weedhopper......ye be shooting them new fangled revolvers have ye?

Meet the 32WCF, AKA 32/20 (http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?TabID=3&Categoryid=7535&categorystring=653***690***). Fastern' a speedin' bullet they be.......

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=67328&stc=1&d=1195191542

http://www.bayourovers.com/SmithandWessonMandP3220LEFT.jpg

gbran
November 16, 2007, 01:45 AM
Mebbe we need an ammo resugence?

Fumbler
November 16, 2007, 02:58 AM
This is just a guess, but I suspect that when the round fires the pressure would try to straighten out the shoulder of the case, thereby wedging the case head against the recoil shield and tying up the gun.
That's exactly why.

The 17HMR produces little pressure compared to larger calibers...and some of these still have issues with the cases tying up the actions.

dao
November 16, 2007, 03:33 AM
Bottleneck cartridges in revolver are not a new idea. For powerfull ones, look at the Gary Reeder's creations ( http://www.ravenammunition.com/cartridge_description.htm ).

PO2Hammer
November 16, 2007, 05:03 AM
Don't forget about the .357 Bain & Davis (sp?). It was a .44 Rem Mag necked down to .357".

logical
November 16, 2007, 11:48 AM
If you think of a "bottleneck" round like the 22-250 as a "bodied up" .22 instead of a necked down .25, it makes more sense. The goal is to get more room for powder behind a small bullet. In a short barrel like on most handguns, it's unlikely you can actually make much use of that larger charge.

Not saying there shouldn't be any or that there are no usefull ones but I believe it's why it isn't common.

Gordon
November 16, 2007, 12:31 PM
I be picking my jet up this Sunday.I have shot one since the 60s. If the chamberes are kept degreased I've NEVER had a freeze up. Of course a 100 rounds in an afternoon was allways alot of shooting with the JET!

Jim March
November 16, 2007, 01:08 PM
There's two variants of the Bain & Davis. The early ones did have setback issues so a revision was made to the angle and shape of the shoulder. The Mk2 variant appears to solve most issues up to a surprising amount of power in a large-frame Blackhawk, something like 158gr @ 1,800fps or similar (working from memory).

The 356GNR is Gary Reeder's answer to the same issue, a 41Mag case necked to 357. Supposedly setback isn't an issue and I'm very keen on scoring a second 357Mag cylinder for my NewVaq and having it reamed to 356GNR. I've also considered the B&D but I don't like the lack of cylinder wall beef that would result.

NewVaqs have been successfully re-chambered in 41Mag so the 356GNR with stock barrel should be no problem. Reeder has loading data for these in S&W-length cylinders which should be appropriate to the New Vaquero.

smee781
November 16, 2007, 06:38 PM
How about a 7.62x25 revolver? I think that would be great!:what: You could fit 7 or 8 in a decent size wheel gun.

Slinky
November 16, 2007, 08:58 PM
That was the exact thought I had reading the thread title.

Janos Dracwlya
November 17, 2007, 12:52 PM
Or, for some real craziness, how about re-chambering a Nagant for something like .32NAA? I guess you'd probably have to go to a six chamber cylinder, if it would even work.

44and45
November 17, 2007, 09:43 PM
Lets put on our stinking caps, .22 Jet, 32-20, 38-40 or is it 38-44, (memory bad on that one because its so freaken old) the 44-40 isn't exactly a straight brass casing is it...kind of narrows up to taper at the top end.

Then there's a whole slew of wildcats that are too numerous to mention.

Jim

Big Boomer
November 18, 2007, 06:50 AM
Magnum Research has a BFR in a 30-30

bl4ckd0g
January 2, 2008, 04:10 AM
Taurus also had a .22 hornet "Raging Hornet". Shooting a few boxes through it at an indoor range will cause a "Raging Headache".

Socrates
January 2, 2008, 06:11 AM
Reeder has also been necking down the 500 S&@ to take .45 caliber bullets. 454 casull velocity, without the vicious recoil and pressure...
Anyone have news on that project.?

Bendutro
January 2, 2008, 01:32 PM
Rumor was the S&W X frame cylinder is 2.3" long so that it could accommodate a .223 round later on. Just what I heard, not sure how much truth there was to it.

BlindJustice
January 2, 2008, 02:17 PM
Somebody say bottle neck?
since I have a .400 Corbon barrel
for my 1911 I'll chime on in on this
subject.

.400 Corbon - developed by Peter Pi at
CorBon - .45 ACP necked down to .40 with a
25 degree shoulder. Corbon has not submitted
it to SAAMI for a pressure spec. but some
suspect it is in the 26,500 range. I have
two boxes of .400 CorBon
155 gr. Speer GDHP @ 1,400 FPS &
155 gr. Hornady XTP JHP @ 1,360 FPS

I exchanged some emails exploring the
possibility of a revolver in .400 CorBon
with Hamilton Bowen. The S&W Da is
not possible with a modified S&W Cylinder
as there is no cylinder to start from & he
also pointed out the possibility of case back
out. He suggested a Ruger SA - use a barrel
in .38-40 and mod. the cylinder - if it had
chronic case back out it could still be changed
back to .38-40 and salvage the gun. At that point
I thought why even do it, just get a SA Ruger in
.38-40.

Speaking of the .38-40, it is a necked down .44-40
The .38-40 is mis-named in that the bore is .40 -
it should have been named the .40-40

The .32-20 is it's own 'parent' circa 1874.
The .25-20 and .219 Zipper? or .218 Bee?
necked it down further.

The .22 Jet is a necked down .357 Magnum
but it, more so in profile is like the .38-40 as
the case is in a long taper, not an abrupt
shoulder.

The older bottlenecked cartridges are SAAMI'd
at 14,000 psi?c.u.p pressure - the Jet at
.357 Mag = 35,000 pressure would certainly lead
to more expansion of the brass case.

I think case back out is a combination of
pressure, case shape, and the chamber
dimensions - & stretched brass reloades
even if resized the abrupt shoulder on some
of the different types stretch and would get
right up agin the bottleneck shoulder
and chamber length. I hope that makes sense

Bottle necks work well in rifles and Semi-Autos, long
guns or handguns because of the
strength of the actions or the nature of
Semi-autos in relation to revolvers.

Hmmm, a Auto Ordanance 1927A1
rebarreled to .400 CorBon. It would
certainly be loud.

OH, FWIW

The necked down .45 ACP to .357 has been done
at least a couple of decades ago.

I think I recall a necked down cartridge
in a Guns & Ammo article in the late 70s or
early 80s - a Commander with either a .45
ACp or a .38 Super necked down to .22 and it
broke 2,000+ FPS.

BigG
January 2, 2008, 02:19 PM
I think the other thing besides set back is the cylinder gap allows flame cutting of top strap which would only be worse with a high intensity cartridge.

Cosmoline
January 2, 2008, 02:23 PM
Ah young weedhopper......ye be shooting them new fangled revolvers have ye?

The .32-20! I hear it will cut you half in two.

bobaloo
January 2, 2008, 03:15 PM
One reason is that trimming cases is too much work. Just finished reloading 2K of .223 and sure nice to get back to loading .357's, so much easier.

unspellable
January 2, 2008, 03:16 PM
The notion of bottle neck case setback in a revolver being a problem is mostly myth. It does occur with certain cases, but there are plenty of case deisgns that will not set back.

The 22 harvey K'Chuck was a wildcat 22 based on the Hornet case and there was no problem with setback. It inspired the 22 Jet, and as is so often the case, the factory had to fix what wasn't broke. The 22 Jet is a necked down 357 Magnum. That would be OK, except that they set it up with an extremely long tapered shoulder which is the recipe for set back problems.

There's a long list of bottle necked cases that don't tie up revolvers.

I shoot the 17 HMR and the 357-44 B&D and have never had any hint of tie up. Used to shoot 32-20 in two different revolvers.

It should be noted that bottle necked cases are quite common in break open action rifles where set back would tie up the action just as it would in a revolver.

fiVe
January 2, 2008, 03:43 PM
How about a 7.62x25 revolver? I think that would be great!

Me too! That round is TOO cool!!

Jim K
January 2, 2008, 04:05 PM
The trouble with 7.62x25 is the same as with 9x19 or any other rimless round in a revolver. Unless special provision is made so moon clips can be used, or the extractor is made to handle the rimless case, extraction on a conventional DA revolver is difficult.

Now, in a single action type with an ejector rod, either cartridge is perfectly feasible, and Ruger has made revolvers in both 9x19 and .45 ACP.

There is absolutely no reason bottle necked RIMMED cases won't work fine. The .22 Jet, with its long taper was a poor design from day one and I never understood the rationale of the designers. Other rimmed and bottleneck cases have been used in revolvers just about since there have been cartridge revolvers.

Jim

kamelryttarn
January 21, 2009, 01:50 PM
How about necking down a 44 Rem Mag to accept a .308 bullet? Should work in most revolvers and ballistically it should perform great.

Duke of Doubt
January 21, 2009, 02:15 PM
Since the gun cannot have a bore in excess of .50 inch, bottlenecking would allow for much more powerful handguns than the Smith & Wesson X frame .500 Magnum series, with the cartridges necked way down to a mere .50 inch from a base diameter of perhaps 1.00 inch. Rubber grips would be a good idea.

Kind of Blued
January 21, 2009, 04:39 PM
Since the gun cannot have a bore in excess of .50 inch, bottlenecking would allow for much more powerful handguns than the Smith & Wesson X frame .500 Magnum series, with the cartridges necked way down to a mere .50 inch from a base diameter of perhaps 1.00 inch. Rubber grips would be a good idea.

WHEN WILL IT END?!?!?!

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=91424&stc=1&d=1232570317

MikePGS
January 21, 2009, 04:45 PM
I would love love LOVE to have a classic revolver say a model 28 customized to be able to shoot .357 sig. Then I would simply show people the revolver and brag about it and watch their heads explode from rage.

CoRoMo
January 21, 2009, 04:49 PM
There are plenty.

Here's a 30-30 BFR

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/images/ssi/49482.jpg

drifty4
January 21, 2009, 10:48 PM
How about the .256 Winchester Magnum? I didn't see anyone mention that one either.

MatthewVanitas
January 21, 2009, 10:59 PM
Did anyone else see that Freedom Arms is offering an SA for the .224-32 wildcat?

It's a .327 Federal brass necked down to .223, and it takes 40gr spitzer bullets. Here's the PDF flier about the new cartridge:

www.freedomarms.com/224-32fada.pdf

R.W.Dale
January 22, 2009, 03:30 AM
The notion of bottle neck case setback in a revolver being a problem is mostly myth. It does occur with certain cases, but there are plenty of case deisgns that will not set back.

I assure you this is not a MYTH

I have a BFR in 30-30 and I can attest to cylinder binding from case setback. After a while I found that I could practically eliminate the problem by fastidiously keeping the chambers free of any oil. When I clean my BFR I actually punch the bores with an alcohol soaked patch.

If such a low pressure cartridge can cause this much fuss imagine the problems a truly high pressure loading would have.

barnetmill
January 22, 2009, 01:36 PM
bottleneck

How about a 7.62x25 revolver? I think that would be great! You could fit 7 or 8 in a decent size wheel gun.
__________________
Smee781

You could get a smith with a well equipped machine shop to make one on an L or N frame. It would not be cheap and I am not sure how much you would grain over some other hot loadings in .30 caliber. The nagant has been rechambered to 7.62 x 25 and does apparently function untill the cylinder goes kaboom.

Vern Humphrey
January 22, 2009, 02:18 PM
How about a 7.62x25 revolver? I think that would be great!
Already exists. Get an old Colt or S&W in .32-20 and you have what amounts to a rimmed version of the 7.62X25, with identical ballistics.

Or, if you want a straight walled version, get a .327 Mag.

Jim K
January 22, 2009, 02:32 PM
Unspellable is correct. There is nothing inherently wrong with bottle-neck cases in a revolver. The badly designed .22 Jet probably soured the public and the revolver makers on all bottle-neck cases, but it shouldn't have.

Real problems are that most bottle-neck cases are rimless, meaning that a revolver would have to have some means of ejection or use clips, and that more powder and smaller bores add up to more erosion at the cone and more gas cutting of the top strap.

Jim

Vern Humphrey
January 22, 2009, 04:00 PM
The problem is this: In a normal revolver, the primer blows out -- moves far enough back so that it contacts the recoil shield. Then, a fraction of a second later, the case moves back and re-seats the primer.

If the case is cylinderical, or nearly so, there isn't much of a problem. But if it's bottle-necked, the shoulder then moves forward, until the case fills the space from the recoil shield to the shoulder of the chamber. In effect, it does exactly what a rifle cartridge does with excess headspace.

In severe cases, the case can split or the head can seperate. But what usually happens is the now-longer cases rub against the recoil shield as the cylinder revolves and ties the gun up.

The reason keeping the chambers free of oil and combustion products helps is that it makes the case adhere to the chamber wall and tends to limit backward motion.

unspellable
January 23, 2009, 08:06 PM
Vern is partly correct. On firing the primer does back of the case and then the case does set back on the primer. It will set all the way back on the primer with any reasonable load. It is part of the job of the brass case to spring back and free things up when the pressure falls off. If it doesn't, it's because of excessive pressure, bad batch of brass, or poor case design ala the 22 Jet.

I shoot the 17 HMR and the 357-44 B&D with out any set back problems.

The 22 Jet's inspirationg, the 22 Harvy K Chuck had no set back problem. Other bottle necked cases used in revolvers in the past with out set back problems include the 38-40, 44-40, 32-20, and 7.62 Nagent. Current revolvers use the 22 Hornet, 218 Bee, and the 9 mm and 30 M1 which are tapered rather than bottle necked. I've not heard of problems.

Point to remember. Case set back would tie up a break action rifle just as much as a revolver. The list of bottle necked cases used in break action rifles is way too long to list here. I have a break action rifle using a bottle necked case.

RJM
January 24, 2009, 12:00 AM
Did anyone else see that Freedom Arms is offering an SA for the .224-32 wildcat?

It's a .327 Federal brass necked down to .223, and it takes 40gr spitzer bullets. Here's the PDF flier about the new cartridge:


I did see that, sounds quite interesting.

Redhawk1
January 24, 2009, 01:16 AM
http://www.reedercustomguns.com/information/GNR_cartridges.htm

R.W.Dale
January 24, 2009, 03:53 AM
Point to remember. Case set back would tie up a break action rifle just as much as a revolver. The list of bottle necked cases used in break action rifles is way too long to list here. I have a break action rifle using a bottle necked case.

not a valid comparison

think about how much more leverage against the chamber a break action has with the piviot several inches forward & outside the chamber and several lbs of barrel sticking out there vs a revolver with a tiny pawl less than a quarter inch the wrong way for mechanical advantage

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