45 long colt primers falling out??


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xrayguy
November 16, 2007, 09:10 PM
:fire: I am having issues with reloading 45 long colt. Seems when I fire them in my Taurus Gaucho, the primers back out and lock up the action, and cause misfires/ no fires due to the primers not being seated. When I load, I use Winchester large pistol primers, and they seem tight *as tight as I can get them* in the cases. It does not happen in all my cases, any ideas how to fix this? Thanks for the experienced wise advise!
Xrayguy!:banghead:

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Ol` Joe
November 16, 2007, 09:14 PM
Loose primer pockets can be a sign of too hot of a load. What are you useing?

xrayguy
November 16, 2007, 09:17 PM
5.2 grains of Trail boss, or Unique. I even tried loading up primers in cases and firing them with no powder/bullets. They still pop out??

xrayguy
November 16, 2007, 09:21 PM
I have new magtech brass, and with factory remington loads I have no problems at all. Maybe this is a simple issue of old cases. Let me clarify: The primers pop out on other rounds in the cylinder, not only the one being fired.

eldon519
November 16, 2007, 09:30 PM
I'd say try different brass. Get some Starline cases.

zxcvbob
November 16, 2007, 09:39 PM
Maybe too *light* of a load. (if you don't believe me, try firing an empty case with a primer and no bullet and see what happens)

zxcvbob
November 16, 2007, 09:42 PM
Let me clarify: The primers pop out on other rounds in the cylinder, not only the one being fired.

OK, that makes no sense at all.

PotatoJudge
November 16, 2007, 09:48 PM
Got another 45 to try them in?
You can try measuring the diameter of the primer and primer pocket.
If you're comfortable with it, and know how to do it safely, you can deprime them and try to feel for looseness. Alternatively, use a lee hand primer and do a few cases. You can get pretty good feedback about primer fit through those.
How do the loads feel and sound? Any chance the powder charge is wrong?

351 WINCHESTER
November 16, 2007, 09:49 PM
I agree, probably too light a load.

xrayguy
November 16, 2007, 10:01 PM
Thanks for the interest and advise.
I am using 7.9 grains of Unique, and 250 grn Laser cast lead, or Hornady XTP's. I have a mixed bag of 45 long colt brass, some new winchester, and magntech. (i reload 100 or so at a time). I am using a Lee Autodisk pro powder measure, and either it is a little lighter than the recommended 8 grns, or it is 8.2 with the next size up hole in the disk.
I have been reloading for 5 yrs, and only recently with Pistol. I have reloaded 200 rnds of 44 mag, no problems at all! 200 rnds 45acp, no problems. only having issue with the 45 long colt.
Thanks!

zxcvbob
November 16, 2007, 10:08 PM
7.9 grains of Unique w/ a 250L bullet should be a really good .45 Colt load.

What primers are you using? They're not "lead free" are they? I've read that those generate much higher primer pocket pressures, and need a larger flash hole. (even if they are, the fired case should slam against the frame and reseat the primer)

xrayguy
November 16, 2007, 10:34 PM
I am using Winchester large magnum/ large pistol primers. I have even tried federal 150 primers. Both in a case w/out any bullet/powder, and they still unseat. This causes the action to get really tight and not want to rotate. :fire:

xrayguy
November 16, 2007, 10:40 PM
Maybe I should try opening up the flash holes in the cases, any idea what size hole?

xrayguy
November 16, 2007, 10:43 PM
In answer to Potatoe Judge:
They feel great and sound correct when they fire,
No I only own 1 45 long colt at this time,
I will give the Lee hand primer a try to see. I have been using a lee turret press, with the single primer feed unit. (load each primer and prime on the down stroke after deprime and resize) Thanks for the suggestion!

CZ223
November 17, 2007, 02:37 PM
and yet intrigued. :D I have loaded tens of thousand of 45 Colt loads with both BP and smokeless. I have gone to both ends of the spectrum from "Mouse-Fart" Cowboy action loads ( not a fan) to loads that would make Elmer Keith tremble in his grave.:evil::evil: Especially if I were standing near his grave when firing them.:evil: I don't recomend doing this but it was, to say the least, exciting.:what: I have never experienced what you are talking about and I can only guess that it must be an out of spec case or primer. I hope you figure it out. Let us know please.

scrat
November 17, 2007, 03:08 PM
only other thing i can think of is to give lee a call yourself. im sure they will be happy to help. they are going to ask a whole bunch of questions to get to the root of the problem. i can tell you now though. buying a hand primer is not going to change a thing. i might suggest different brass. If you are seating a primer on your turret press. Then you say they fully seat. but come out easily. This is either the wrong primer. Which sounds like not. ORRRRR bad brass. Usually if its the opposite. Where the primer does not go in straight or takes considerable force. then i would suggest using a primer pocket tool to clean and ream out the primer pockets. Your problem is unique that the primers fall out.

NOWW

this is happening to the brass now. Which means the prvious rounds were either way toooo light a load. ORRR to hot a load. Either way tooo light a load will increase case pressure to dangerous conditions and too hot a load can do the same thing. You have to work within a window and see where your firearm works best at. Now if you had to light or too hot of loads before. you could have distored the brass. In this case you will need to get some new brass. Not bad as long as you have narrowed down the problem.

Now what you need to do next is erase the drawing board. Recheck your load data. Make sure your rounds are at the correct COL cartridge overall length. Make sure you are using the correct load data IE bullet needs to match the powder. Then do not start out at the max load. ANDDD do not start out on the minimum load. Start somewhere in the middle. Then go shooting. Write down your results. and then go from there.

1 more thing. i always clean out my primer pockets with a primer pocket cleaner. then i always use a decapping rod to go through the actual hole. You dont want to use anything else IE a drill bit or anything. If you do not have a primer pocket cleaner or a decapping pin the only thing i would suggest is a paperclip. As you only want to clear the hole from abstructions not make it bigger. Bigger is not better. The hole has to be a certain size. you dont want the hole to fill up with gunpowder then fill up the primer. This is bad.

Walkalong
November 17, 2007, 05:08 PM
Gotta be the brass from what I have read here. Get a hundred new Winchester or Starline and I bet it solves your problem.

Over zealous primer pocket cleaning can lead to loose pockets as well. We need to clean the bottom of the pocket (for those who clean them) and not scrape any on the sides.

and they seem tight *as tight as I can get them*
Mashing the primer harder will not get them "tighter" That is a matter of primer width vs primer pocket width. Sort of like neck tension. If the pockets are loose from hot loads in the past or scraping to clean them they will not hold a primer well, no matter how hard you seat them.

Master Blaster
November 17, 2007, 05:15 PM
This is definately a problem with the cases.

I have loaded and shot many .45 colt and other rounds with the winchester LP and never seen this problem.

rcmodel
November 17, 2007, 05:31 PM
DO Not use magnum primers with that reduced load you are using.

I don't know about Trail Boss, but 5.2 grains Unique is less then a suggested starting load with a 250 grain lead bullet. You are not getting enough pressure with your load to blow the cases back over the primers and re-seat them.

The primers will always unseat and tie up the gun is there is not enough chamber pressure to re-seat them when the round fires.

They will always blow out if fired with an empty case.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

Walkalong
November 17, 2007, 09:13 PM
Quote:
Let me clarify: The primers pop out on other rounds in the cylinder, not only the one being fired.

OK, that makes no sense at all.
Yep. If it was just the round fired I would have to say light load, but the other rounds as well. :confused:
That is why I said the brass is the problem. I may be wrong, of course.

Lloyd Smale
November 18, 2007, 07:52 AM
my first guess is your using some brass that was fired at real high pressure and has expanded the primer pockets. Pick yourself up a box of good brass like starline and see if the problem continues. Another thought is that ive had rugers that because of machining tolarances were a tad tight on the clearance between the back of the cyl and the frame and even had high spots on the frame that made ammo with even just a tad of primer protrusion tie up a gun. Ive even take a file to stainless guns to open them up a tad. Another thing that can do it is a base pin hole that was drilled slightly crooked. Cycle your gun and measure your barrel/cyl gap with every chamber and see if it varys. but if its happening to rounds just sitting in the cylinder id guess its a brass problem..

Chawbaccer
November 18, 2007, 08:53 AM
I suppose you know not to have grease or oil in the chambers.

snuffy
November 18, 2007, 02:18 PM
5.2 grains of Trail boss, or Unique. I even tried loading up primers in cases and firing them with no powder/bullets. They still pop out??

As stated, 5.2 grains of unique is a very light load. With this light of a load, the primers will always back out, then fail to be re-seated by the pressure build up in the chamber. The same thing happens when firing a primed, empty case.

I have new magtech brass, and with factory remington loads I have no problems at all. Maybe this is a simple issue of old cases. Let me clarify: The primers pop out on other rounds in the cylinder, not only the one being fired.

In other words, you fully load the cylinder with six rounds, then fire one round, the others unfired rounds have their primers back out? If that's the result, then toss that "mixed brass" out, get some new brass, your primer pockets are too loose.

Thanks for the interest and advise.
I am using 7.9 grains of Unique, and 250 grn Laser cast lead, or Hornady XTP's.

That's a better load of unique, but still under what the Lyman 48th manual recommends as a starting load for their 255 lead SWC. Their starting load is 8.5 grains of unique.

Hodgdon's data for 45 long colt, with trail boss, 250 lead RNFP, starts at 5.4, for 606 fps and 8,800 psi, and tops out at 5.8, for 727 fps and 12,700 psi. Again low pressures that will result in primers backing out and failing to be reseated by chamber pressure.

xrayguy
November 18, 2007, 09:20 PM
Snuffy, very nice response! I will retry the brass, and recheck my loads. Thanks for all the excellent WORDS of WISDOM! That would be for all responders!
Also, I got the loads out of an older lee reloading manual.
Does the load data change depending on the year for these manuals/ powders? not really on topic, just curious ??

Ol` Joe
November 18, 2007, 10:26 PM
Data will vary.
The manufactures at times change bullet geometery, core and jacket alloy and thickness, primers may change. The companies usually never anounce their changes. Then too, new test equipment might show hidden spikes older test methods missed. Also, every component lot is a little different from the last. One lab might get a fast lot of powder this year and a slow one the next, or visa versa. Your lots might change, you never know.

Wildfire
November 19, 2007, 01:16 AM
I agree with Walkalong. It has to be a brass problem. Something is wrong there. As the others stated I have fired countless rounds thru my .45 Long colt and never found this. Enlarging the flash holes may not be that good of an idea. This will compound that problem, not help it.
I do not believe you have any sort of PSI issues. The primer pockets are just to big. Winchester makes very good brass. And I would scrap all of the other stuff and start with new. I beleive the brass is the most important metalic componant. And for any kind of good accuracy it should all match. Just my thoughts.

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