The Glock,Sig, & HK Debate


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tacstar
November 17, 2007, 09:50 PM
I'm relatively new to firearms & I'm in the market for a sidearm. I would like an unbiased opinion as to the quality of the following firearms:

Glock 21 & 22
HK UP .40 S&W & .45 ACP
Sig P220R & P229( with the DAK trigger)

I went to my local gun dealer to take a look @ the above pistols. I have a rather large hand & the 3rd generatin Glocks did not feel quite right due to the intergrated finger grooves. The HK & Sig's felt perfect. However HK & Sig are priced significantly higher than Glock.

The salesman was pushing me towards Sig. However I am aware of the fact that Glock has the contract for several LE agencies throught out the country.

Gentlemen how do these fire arms stack up against each other?

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1BLINDREF
November 17, 2007, 09:58 PM
All three are quality guns, but they are very different from each other.
Sigs and Hks are generally more accurate than Glocks.
If you are comparing the three trigger systems, you are comparing apples to oranges to grapes.
Only you can decide which one is best for you.
You'll get alot of different opinions on which is better. The best thing you can do is to try the three and see which one you like / shoot best.

Old Dog
November 17, 2007, 10:18 PM
I would like an unbiased opinion as to the quality of the following firearms:
Regrettably, it seems rare to find a truly unbiased opinion in the handgun world. Or, especially, on an internet gun forum. And if you'd thrown in the 1911, you'd have filled the inside straight when it comes to debating which pistols are the best ...

That said, I'm in total agreement with 1Blindref. Try shooting them all yourself. You've already noted what many folks find -- that SIGs and H&Ks feel better in the hand than Glocks. Glocks are phenomenal pistols in terms of reliability, durability and provide more than adequate accuracy. However, for many of us, that particular "feel" of a handgun is what makes us loyal to one maker's pistols over another's.

I'm issued an H&K USP by my employer. Off-duty, if I'm not carrying a 1911, I pack a SIG. I'm a former Glock owner, and in particular, appreciated my 19 and 23, but just couldn't learn to love 'em.

H&K is an exceptionally well-engineered piece. A SIG is ... a SIG. I suspect more folks gravitate to the Glocks when they first discover autoloaders, but those who've been around a while really appreciate the H&K and the SIG ...

Price should be no object if one is searching for the handgun one will be the most proficient with when defending one's self and one's family.

However I am aware of the fact that Glock has the contract for several LE agencies throught out the country.Due almost entirely to the trade-in policies and price-point that LE agencies are provided by Glock --and the Glock's service-life (for the bean-counters) ...

atblis
November 17, 2007, 10:24 PM
I own exactly none of those pistols you mentioned. I personally like none of them. All three have police contracts.

However, they are all decent pistols. None are markedly better than the others. Buy what you like and ignore everybody.

A $100 price difference won't seem like much after you've spent thousands on ammo.

BamBam-31
November 17, 2007, 10:36 PM
See if you can shoot examples of all three. Maybe stop by a local range with rentals, just to see how they feel when shot. Hand fit in the store is a good indicator but no substitute for actually shooting the aforementioned pistols.

I, for one, have been shooting for quite some time and have owned or own all three brands. All three are truly fine producers of firearms, and I doubt you'll be disappointed by any one of them. That said, I'm a longtime shooter that gravitates towards Glocks. A common myth is that HK's and Sigs are more accurate than Glocks (which are considered only "combat accurate"). Unless you're talking X5's or Experts, Glocks are every bit as accurate as their more expensive brethren. All three are certainly more accurate than most people can hold. Really, you have to shoot them to see how they perform in your hands.

And welcome to THR, btw. :)

(PS--There are endless threads comparing the three. Do a quick search for hours of reading on the matter.)

bwavec
November 17, 2007, 11:33 PM
You really can't go wrong with a Sig or HK. They work great, are accurate and are the epitome of quality off the shelf fire arms. Hold a few models in your hands...and see what works best for you.

Ammo First
November 18, 2007, 12:41 AM
Buy a pistol made in America

Autolycus
November 18, 2007, 01:06 AM
I prefer HK and Sig myself. I own both and I believe that once you buy one you will eventually buy the other. I would look at the HK USPc or P2000. I also like the Sig P226 and P229.

What exactly do you plan on doing with the gun is the question? Is it a carry gun, a range gun, a bedside gun, etc.? I would look at an HK P2000 if you plan on carrying. Get it with the LEM trigger if you want a double action only pistol.

10-Ring
November 18, 2007, 03:35 AM
In this order, I prefer HK, then Glock & then SIG. Ask someone else & that order will be different. Get the one you can commit the time & effort necessary to master...all 3 manufacturers will provide you with a quality piece that will do the job you ask it to do...if you do your part too ;)

Rexster
November 18, 2007, 03:45 AM
I have own, or have owned, 3 SIGs, 2 HKs, and about half a dozen Glocks. The HKs ran perfectly; both were early P7s, but both went away during a post-divorce financial squeeze in the 80's. The Glocks were not perfect, but were good weapons. My advice with Glocks: 9mm Glocks are really, really good, ditto with the 10mm. Every problem with Glocks seems to be in the .45 and .40 chamberings. As for SIG, well, I have had perfect luck with a P220 I owned the 1990's and the P226R DAK that is now my duty pistol. The third is a P229 I just purchased as a spare duty pistol, and I have yet to fire it. Perhaps tomorrow. If I had to pick up an unfired or untested pistol, and use it to defend my life, I would reach for a SIG.

Rexster
November 18, 2007, 03:52 AM
Secondly, based on a recent conversation with an experienced employee of a local range/retailer, parts breakage among customers' guns is found to be most common in HK, Beretta, and in the Glock G36. His personal G36 has broken multiple parts. He is not anti-Glock, but definitely indicated that .45 may not be the best chambering for Glocks. The theory is that the longer pressure curve of the .45 ACP tears Glocks apart, in spite of the lower maximum chamber pressure. Then, the recall bulletins and agency reports I have seen at work involve .45 Glocks.

S&W620
November 18, 2007, 12:55 PM
If you want a truly unbiased opinion, you must shoot them all for yourself.

I can give you my opinion though. Do with it what you like

Sigs: Never shot one, never owned one. Can't say much about them other than I have heard from many folks that the finish is less than spectacular. Other than that they are about as rock solid of a gun as you will find.

Glock: Simple to use, boring reliability. These things are true "working guns". What many Glock owners consider "use" is what many other gun owners consider "abuse". These things take a lickin and keep on tickin so to speak. I've owned 2 different models (17/19) and both were fine pistols, especially the 19. Trigger is not great, but consistent. I would absolutely recommend a Glock to anyone who was interested.

HK: This gun is my absolute favorite right now. I have a USP in .40 and I personally think this is the perfect gun. I much prefer the DA/SA to the DAO of the Glock. The first time I shot this gun my groups tightened as opposed to my Glocks. I could really go on for hours about how much I like this gun, but I think you get the idea.

In the end, any one of these three manufacturers is going to provide you with one hell of a weapon. It's like chocolate ice cream vs. vanilla vs. strawberry. All three are great, but it just depends which flavor you prefer.

glockman19
November 18, 2007, 01:20 PM
All great guns, for me the order of choice is based on caliber. Whom ever says one gun is more accurate than another is way off base. Most all guns ara only as accurate as the person shooting them. That said I prefer a Glock in 9mm and a Sig or HK in .40. The heavier Sig & HK's reduce the felt recoil making follow-up shots easier to make. The Glock .40 is so light that I find it to be a little too snappy for me.

ccmdfd
November 18, 2007, 01:27 PM
All I will say is just don't go by feel. Many a gun has felt nice to me at the store, only to find I can't shoot it worth a darn at the range.

Depending on what you're looking for, you may also want to have someone time you, and score your hits at the range. I've also found that while many a gun will shoot nice when just plinking at a stationary target, when I do an IDPA style timed drill that gun will score less than another that shoots worse when just doing still shots.

cc

Silvanus
November 18, 2007, 01:30 PM
Sigs and Hks are generally more accurate than Glocks

That's absolutely not true. If you can shoot a Glock well, they are extremely accurate. Everybody who says otherwise simply hasn't owned a Glock long enough to get proficient with it.

As far as quality goes, all three are pretty much the same. If the grip of the Glock doesn't fit you though, I'd not buy one just because they are less expensive.

Of the other two I prefer the Sigs. I like their trigger better than H&K's and the ergonomics feel better for me. You could also try to find a second generation Glock that hasn't got the finger grooves. It's your choice. You won't go wrong with any of these 3.

distortion9
November 18, 2007, 01:30 PM
Look at it this way...

Eventually you will own more than one handgun....it's just a matter of figuring out which you want first. :)

D-Man
November 18, 2007, 01:42 PM
It's not going to be an easy decision, but all listed in that group are quality handguns.

To help you decide, think about the following:

1) What caliber do you really want - .40 or .45? I personally think you'll be perfectly fine with either, but do you have a preference? Be sure to check ammo pricing here too.

2) What kind of trigger action do you want and would be comfortable with? You have Glock's 'safe action', H&K's USP which can come in multiple configurations (DA/SA, LEM, etc.), and Sig (not sure if you want DAK with both or just DAK w/ the P229).

3) Is this for home/range use, or do you plan to carry them? Most of them are pretty large and may pose problems with concealment.

I know sometimes it's a pain when you ask specific questions about guns on a list, and people throw in other brands / models. But take a look at the M&P45 report I posted - I think the M&P would be worthy of consideration especially now with a $50 rebate and 2 free magazine offer.

hksw
November 18, 2007, 03:16 PM
IMO (don't have a Glock in .40Sw or .45 ACP but will extend my results with a G34 to those calibers, have samples of the other two),

Build quality,
1. SIG
2. HK, Glock (tie)

Performance/function,
1. SIG, HK, Glock (tie)

Ergonomics,
1. SIG
2. HK (close to #1)
3. Glock (far from #2)

This is only my assessment from the samples I have. Others will, of course be different.

Creature
November 18, 2007, 03:45 PM
I would like an unbiased opinion as to the quality of the following firearms

Impossible to get...try them for yourself.

emann
November 18, 2007, 04:36 PM
tacstar wrote: However HK & Sig are priced significantly higher than Glock.


This shoudn't have been the case unless you were looking at aluminum framed Sigs. The Sig Pro's (which have a polymer frame like a Glock) are no more expensive then a Glock. HK's are sometimes a little more then both, but even then it depends on which Sig and which H&K you're comparing.

Vito_Corleone
November 18, 2007, 05:27 PM
I own a USP in .40, a P220 in .45, and a P228 in 9mm...

I love them all. I shoot the 220 the best, but the USP is the smoothest gun I've ever handled. They are all great guns. Don't own a Glock and I've only shot one once, so no opinion there.

hnk45acp
November 18, 2007, 05:45 PM
I own 2 hks and 1 sig and no glocks
for me it's
trigger:
1. Glock
2. Sig
3. HK

reliability:
1. HK
2. Glock
3. Sig

ergos:
1. Sig
2. HK
3. Glock

price:
1. Glock
2. HK, Sig (tie)

Looks:
1. HK
2. Sig
3. Glock

Accuracy:
All 3 shoot better than I can

SoCalShooter
November 18, 2007, 05:51 PM
I like all three I own a Glock and an HK I now also own an XD and I am actually thinking I may like it more than all three others. I have used a sig and I chose the HK USP over the sig sauer. The glock I have is a model 20.

SCooper
November 19, 2007, 12:40 AM
Shoot all three.

Several years ago, I bought a Kimber Pro Carry in stainless.

It was a great gun. It was shiny and new. I got it at a great price. Oh yeah and one other tidbit, I couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with it. It wasn't the gun or me. A buddy that was accustomed to shooting 1911's shot it and did well (he later bought it from me). Moral of the story: I could have saved me some time by shooting one first.

Whichever firearm you pick, you need to take into account of the weight of the gun (if its not comfortable to carry, you won't), the caliber (.357 sig is a great round but expensive as gold to buy ammunition for), and last but not least you need to practice, practice practice with your chosen weapon.:)

W.E.G.
November 19, 2007, 12:44 AM
Definitely try as many different guns as you can.

For me, the HK is too fat in the grip.

The SIG has too many levers.

The Glock just fits my hand so well, and it shoots so accurately for me, I'm forced to like it no matter how much I want to hate it. Also, it takes a licking, and keeps on ticking. Cleaning is almost optional.

RON in PA
November 19, 2007, 05:16 AM
Look at the Smith and Wesson M&P.

SRJim
November 19, 2007, 10:16 AM
And to complicate matters, have you looked at Springfield XD's?? I like the feel over Glock. But I'm also looking for a 4" with a compact grip (not sub) which Glock doesn't have in a .45 ACP.

Koblenz
November 19, 2007, 11:17 AM
"The heavier Sig & HK's reduce the felt recoil making follow-up shots easier to make. The Glock .40 is so light that I find it to be a little too snappy for me."

I agree with Glockman about the recoil problem in Glock .40's. Another .40 to consider for manageable recoil is the S&W 4006. It is all steel and has enough weight to tame the .40 cartridge.

Autolycus
November 19, 2007, 02:38 PM
The HK USP and Sig 229 were designed around the .40 S&W cartridge.

KBintheSLC
November 19, 2007, 02:58 PM
I would like an unbiased opinion as to the quality of the following firearms

This is unlikely to happen here. Most will comment based on their own experience and personal preference. I own a Glock and a Sig... no HK's though, so I would likely recommend one of the ones I own.

highrider
November 19, 2007, 10:44 PM
I would like an unbiased opinion as to the quality of the following firearms
Impossible to get...try them for yourself.

I believe that this is the only realistic bottom line. Everybody has their favorites and their opinions of those that aren't. Shoot them then buy the one YOU like.

curmudgeon and anarchist
November 20, 2007, 12:22 AM
My favorite guns are Sigs (I have three) but my principal carry gun is a Glock 23. It's light, high capacity and very concealable. The gun on my nightstand is an XD 45 ACP Tactical. My favorite pistol to shoot is my Sig 228. The gun I most lust after is the Sig 220 carry elite SS, and will own it someday. My Sig Blackwater is at Sig having a short reset trigger installed, and I can't wait to get it back. I like my harem.

I have never shot a HK anything but I resent what they charge for a polymer gun.

I don't see any point in sticking to one brand, or, like some folks, creating an identity out of it.:D

okienate
November 20, 2007, 12:33 AM
The advice to shoot all three paid off for me in spades. I recomend you follow suit and heed these smart folks advice.

I'd been a hard core 1911 man until a friend MADE me shoot his glock (G36). I picked it up, cursed the stupid "U and dot" sight system, and then commenced to put holes into holes at 15 and 20 yards off hand. I could NOT believe what I was seeing. This "cheapo piece of Austrian tupperware" (as I used to call the Glocks), in my hands, was performing more consistently than my trusty Kimber!

The only problem I had with the G36 was the small grip (I have big Gorrilla mits for hands). Being a 1911 nut, I had plenty of .45 ACP on hand and wanted to keep my handguns consistent, so I tried out the G30 and ended up purchasing my first piece of tupperware.....

Bottom line, shoot until you find something that makes you look like you can really shoot........that's what I did and it was something I'd normally NEVER considered. Don't limit yourself to the big names, try a little of everything you can get your hands on from friends and/or acquaintances you can make at a decent local range. You may end up with something you'd already decided you'd hate!

antsi
November 20, 2007, 12:46 AM
However I am aware of the fact that Glock has the contract for several LE agencies throught out the country.

I would not put too much stock in this. LE agencies are government contracts. They are very cost conscious. They are also highly conscious of training cost and training time. Your priorities may be different. Also, Glock has used some very aggressive marketing tactics to get LE contracts.

None of this means that Glocks are the best handgun for you.

Another vote for "go out and shoot them all and see which one you like best."

Autolycus
November 21, 2007, 03:01 AM
I agree with antsi about the LE agencies and contracts. Glock has been very aggressive in marketing. They do make good pistols but that does not necessarily mean they are better.

If you take a step back you will see that all of them fire bullets. Just as a Toyota will get you to work so would a BMW. It just depends on how nice your looking to go.

I recommend HK as they are drastically improving their customer service, making higher quality guns as of late, and are just superior in ergonomics for me and it seems a lot of others on the gun forums. The Glock is great but the HK is better.

Sig is nice as well but I am thinking primarily of a carry gun and the steel versus polymer issue is my concern. Overall though Sigs and HKs are where it is at.

evan price
November 21, 2007, 03:51 AM
My first semiauto was a Glock, because, well, they were Glocks.

However after owning and shooting a Sig I have gradually started changing everything over to Sigs.

My opinion should not sway you more than to try one out, though.

I do not like HKs because they are as chunky and blocky as a Glock without anything to make them better, except with a higher price.

I do not like Glocks as much because they are too, Glocky...but are very reliable and I can hit what I shoot at with one. Ugly, but reliable. But they feel like a farm implement in my hand.

Sigs fit my hand like a glove and have a great trigger.

However I can shoot my Springfield XD as good as my Sig and like its feel and fit better than a comparable Glock.

shooter.45
November 21, 2007, 10:36 AM
I have owned all 3 that you mentioned and now only own Glocks does that tell you something. For me the Glock is a very accurate gun never had a jam .

Quiet
November 21, 2007, 04:22 PM
All three manufacterers make excellent products that won't let you down.


Heckler & Koch = Mercedes-Benz
SIG-Sauer = BMW
GLOCK = Honda

:neener:

GTSteve03
November 21, 2007, 05:17 PM
GLOCK = Honda
Yeah but they aren't Japanese!

A better analogy would be GLOCK = Volvo.

Not that GLOCK is Swedish but still. They're both shaped like a brick but pretty darn reliable. :p

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