Saiga-12 Yes or no, opinions/hate welcome


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theken206
November 17, 2007, 09:14 PM
Been thinking about picking one up. What do the gurus of the high road think and dont tell me saiga forum. Are mags hard to get ahold of??

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JWarren
November 17, 2007, 09:19 PM
I dunno about how hard the AGP Mags are to get, but I've never heard anything but praise for the Saiga 12. One may be on my list eventually.


-- John

Officers'Wife
November 17, 2007, 09:22 PM
Hi Ken,

I have had a SAIGA 410 for seven years now. It functions flawlessly and handles well. If the 12 ga give even half the service my 410 has given me it would be an excellent investment.

Selena

Zundfolge
November 17, 2007, 09:46 PM
I sold my Tromix converted Saiga 12 and deeply regret it.

This guy has a mess of AGP 10 round mags and at a good price http://www.mississippiautoarms.com/

I highly recommend one.

Hoppy590
November 17, 2007, 09:47 PM
i encourage the idea of a Saiga 12!

flip180
November 17, 2007, 09:55 PM
I would love to have one but those 50.00 mags are what's putting me off.

Flip.

Wes Janson
November 17, 2007, 10:09 PM
Yeah, but look at how many other mags are in that price range...it's a bit steep, but it's not unreasonable, particularly when the shotgun itself is fairly inexpensive.

Shadowangel
November 17, 2007, 10:10 PM
I love my Saiga-12. Need a few more mags, but otherwise i'm very pleased.

JWarren
November 17, 2007, 10:16 PM
The price of mags turns a lot of people off of some firearms.

I see that regarding the DPMS .308, the M1A, and the Saiga 308 often. All of those seem to run in the range of $30-$50 a pop for a quality one. Lately, the best price I can find for a standard AK magazine is between $15 and $20.

As I see it, it just comes with the territory if you want that firearm. I actually considered magazines into the cost of my Saiga 308.

-- John

KevininPa
November 17, 2007, 10:41 PM
I don't know what it's worth since it's not a shotgun, but I've found my 7.62 x39 to be reliable and very well built.

ilcylic
November 17, 2007, 11:06 PM
I really enjoyed my time on one at the FBMG shoot in April.

REOIV
November 18, 2007, 01:39 AM
Buy one.

Don't think about it and just buy it already.

50 dollars a mag is nothing, you can get 5 rounders for 30 to 35 bucks if the 50 dollar price for a 10 rounder is too steep. But even then how many mags do you really need? People put up without detachable magazines for pump and semi auto shotguns now why worry about detachable magazine costs? The whole reason to get a Saiga is the detachable magazine.

What other detachable magazine fed semi auto shotguns are out there?

The S12 is just plain bad ass, it takes most AK accessories, can be tricked out 8 ways to Sunday, is super cheap for a semi auto shotgun, it has plenty of after market parts to make it look whatever you want it to look like, it is reliable and tough as hell and has a softer felt recoil than other shotguns.

They are the best 400+ bucks you can spend on a semi-auto shotgun.

Even if you don't like it that much you can turn around and sell it most likely for more than you paid for it.

Personally it is my favorite gun that I own. It is my SHTF gun and home defense gun. I slapped a Tromix shark brake on it so it can double duty as a bayonet if needed, added in a russian clamp on AK front sight, and after Christmas I will add in an ace folding stock and a tritium AK front sight post. Just one mean SOB of a gun.

I can't wait for the 20 round drums and mag wells to come out.

Shark32
November 18, 2007, 03:09 AM
It is my favorite gun in the collection.

buy it, convert it, personalize it, and watch the value rise. Of any AK based gun, the S-12 has to be the best investment.

nwilliams
November 18, 2007, 04:24 AM
I don't think you'll find anyone who wouldn't recommend a Saiga let alone a Saiga-12.

They are hard to find if you can get one for a good price then do it, why not? They are just another gun that the anti's would love to see us loose the privilege of owning so buy one while you still can.

Vaarok
November 18, 2007, 10:32 AM
My Saiga 12 is the best gun I ever bought.

I have put more than seven thousand rounds of low-brass through it, it lives at the barn for vermin and emergencies, receives no maintainence, and always works flawlessly.

waterhouse
November 18, 2007, 10:51 AM
Are mags hard to get ahold of??

Right now they are way easier to find than the gun :D

MCgunner
November 18, 2007, 11:45 AM
I've got absolutely NO use for one. I'd need a two round magazine just to be legal with it for what I use shotguns for. The Saiga is for the tacticool assault crowd. My, I'm just a "Fudd".

Patrick_Henry
November 18, 2007, 03:03 PM
Everyone keeps saying that they are relatively cheap. Does anyone know what a reasonable price range for these guns is?

Deer Hunter
November 18, 2007, 03:23 PM
Aw MC, lighten up. You wouldn't use a woman just for having babies, would you?

They're great guns, and I was really thinking about getting one of them last year. I settled on my .223 version of the Saiga and spent the rest of the mony building my own shotgun. One day I'd like to own one, though.

Vaarok
November 18, 2007, 04:21 PM
I use my Saiga for killing vermin around the barn, especially during the sub-zero winter days when flocks of starlings and pigeons invade the calf barn. I feel that any shotgun you can drop in the snow, field strip with mittens, blow the snow out of the bore of, and then reassemble and fire flawlessly in thirty-below temps is a good shotgun.

There's a difference between a bladly utilitarian fudd and downright party-pooper. Scatterguns are fun, kalashnikov scatterguns are even funner!

MCgunner
November 18, 2007, 05:32 PM
I learned the term "Fudd" on this site. While I have an SKS to play with at the range, I don't really like "plinking" with a shotgun. The SKS was just too cheap NOT to buy for having fun. Pretty solid gun, too, for the money. Actually, I have two of 'em.

A Kalashnikov style shotgun just doesn't interest me. I could see uses for one, just don't have any use for one. I think a 12 would be excellent to tote in Alaska for bear repellent.

theken206
November 18, 2007, 06:03 PM
Thanks guys, Ill be headed to the gun shop tommorow or the next day.

Pete409
November 18, 2007, 08:12 PM
I don't see the point of semi-auto shotguns with detachable magazines. The loaded magazines are very bulky and very heavy for the limited amount of rounds they hold. Once the pre-loaded magazines are used up, they are VERY slow to reload.

I'll bet that you could load and fire 100 rounds of shotgun ammo faster from a tubular magazine semi-auto than some other shooter with a Saiga and 3 10-round detachable magazines even if he had all 3 mags fully loaded to begin with. He would get off the first 30 rounds faster than you, but after that, you would go past him like he was in reverse gear.

Another advantage of the tube fed magazine shotgun is that you can easily "top it off" by adding another couple of rounds at any time. With a detachable magazine gun, you have to remove the magazine to add additional rounds.

Navy87Guy
November 18, 2007, 08:19 PM
Thanks guys, Ill be headed to the gun shop tommorow or the next day.

Good luck -- the last shipment of S-12's dried up (mostly) around September. The next one is due to hit the states around the end of the month (so rumor control says).

Based on recent prices, a new 19" S-12 ought to run you in the $400-$480 range...it will depend on how much the prices have gone up since the last batch. Gilbert's Guns is pre-ordering them for $460.

As far as uses for an S12, they are versatile. I have mine set up for home defense, with the option to use it for bird hunting (an easy block installed in the 5-rd magazine) or deer hunting. It also makes people very jealous at shotgun and 3-gun competitions!

I also like the fact that the shotgun runs just like my AK-47, so I only need to learn one manual of arms and set of malfunction drills.

And yes, they are cool!
http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2004-11/889657/Saiga_S12_CAA.JPG

Jim

MCgunner
November 18, 2007, 10:20 PM
That thing looks like it handles like a D8 cat. :rolleyes: Sorry, but I prefer a nice English stocked double for bird hunting. Haven't seen too many Saigas in trap and skeet, either, not on the Olympic level or in serious shoots. I have a pump and an auto. No, neither holds 20 rounds, so what?

It is what it is, I guess. Far as the topping up thing, you'd change tactics with a box mag gun and do your tactical reloads just as you do with a handgun in IDPA, yank the partial mag and stuff a full one in while stickin' the partial mag in your waist band or somewhere. You wouldn't carry loose ammo, just full magazines. Of course, in real life, you will have your shotgun and perhaps a butt sleeve with five rounds. You ain't going to get up and put on your tacticool ammo vest to investigate a bump in the night. If you are, I seriously question your state of paranoia. :D Me, I have a 20 gauge coach gun in the bedroom, two shots and five on the butt. That's more'n enough. I ain't taking on a company of Al Qaida. It's for if some determined intruder decides he wants in my bedroom past the locked door. He won't get far with a load of #3 buck in his face.

If you honestly believe you're going to have to go to war and bring your own weapon (who knows, but I ain't plannin' on it at age 55) I reckon you might "need" something like this, though I'd rather go to war with a rifle.

jlbraun
November 18, 2007, 10:42 PM
They're fun. They're reliable. They're cheap. What's not to like?

berettashotgun
November 19, 2007, 08:10 AM
The .410's were/are(?) cheap. Own 2 - love them,my grandkids will have a blast with these. Dove hunting over decoys.
The 20ga. are very reasonable in price. My pick for H.D. use. of the 3 gauges this is offered in just because of weight.
The 12ga. are stupid- recoil,weight,price. I do feel stupid at times.
Man I wish they were offered in 10ga. That would rock with slugs!!!!!!! 2 oz. ( or over 900grs.) of 1600fps hot lead. OoooooHhhhhh Yeahhhhhh!
I love the line "You wouldn't use a woman just for having babies, would you?" They do need to make thanksgiving dressing

jlbraun
November 19, 2007, 11:54 AM
Man I wish they were offered in 10ga. That would rock with slugs!!!!!!!

10 rounds of 10ga 3.5" magnum slugs in a semi-auto is possibly too much awesome for one human to handle. :D

REOIV
November 19, 2007, 11:55 AM
I don't see the point of semi-auto shotguns with detachable magazines. The loaded magazines are very bulky and very heavy for the limited amount of rounds they hold.

I don't find it any more bulky than any other 30 round mags out there.... If the length is a problem just use the 5 rounders.

To me this is like debating about tubular .22lr vs semi-auto detachable .22lr.

Once the pre-loaded magazines are used up, they are VERY slow to reload.
Have you reloaded the detachable mags?

They load just as fast a tube mag, you put the shell in and push down. How is this slower? The only benefit a tube mag has over the detachable one is that you can use one hand to load the mag, and the other has to hold the gun. Instead of one hand holding the mag on its own and the other loading.

I'll bet that you could load and fire 100 rounds of shotgun ammo faster from a tubular magazine semi-auto than some other shooter with a Saiga and 3 10-round detachable magazines even if he had all 3 mags fully loaded to begin with. He would get off the first 30 rounds faster than you, but after that, you would go past him like he was in reverse gear.
So you're saying that a tubular shotgun with a 5 round cap, will stand up to a Saiga zipping through 30 rounds in 15 seconds? It takes 5 more loads from the initial start to just catch up to 30.

Lets look at this simply from a movement standpoint.
Pump gun with 5 shell cap (minus starting 5) has to be reloaded 19 times.
The Saiga with the 3 starting mags has to be reloaded 7 times and only requires 9 mag changes.

Sorry but even math wise a tube gun beating a detachable mag doesn't make sense. You only have to load 7 times vs 19.

How fast do you think a tube mag loads compared to a detachable mag?

Have you seen this video of a modded saiga with a mag well? (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I5LwV0OS3m0)

Guy loads and fires 20 rounds in 10 seconds flat. Loading and firing one shell in under 2 seconds is a big deal with speed loaders etc.

And you're telling me that 2 shells a second is some how slower than a tube fed.

Sure.....

Another advantage of the tube fed magazine shotgun is that you can easily "top it off" by adding another couple of rounds at any time. With a detachable magazine gun, you have to remove the magazine to add additional rounds.

And? In both cases you're adding rounds to a partially loaded magazine.

How about this one with clear mags you can see how many rounds you have left unlike tube guns.

Or you can have specialty loaded mags with one set of ammo that you can switch out quickly instead of having to stop and load a special round.

VirgilCaine
November 19, 2007, 12:28 PM
The one problem with the Saiga is that since it's an autoloader, it can't handle special ammo, like less-lethal rounds.

This is looking at it from a holistic standpoint, say for law enforcement use or whatnot, this isn't much of a concern for citizens.

Totally agree with you REOIV.

The Saiga blows any other semi-automatic "combat" shotgun out of the water, with the possible exception of the SPAS-15.

Robert Hairless
November 19, 2007, 12:50 PM
I don't have any special feelings for or against the Saiga 12.

Its major deficiencies for me were the limited capacity of the five round magazines with which it is shipped and the lack of a last round bolt hold open. For me the limited capacity issue has been addressed satisfactorily by the AGP 10 round magazines. I know that the LRBHO issue has been addressed by someone with the screen name "Jeric" (I think) but his approach requires modification to both the shotgun itself and all magazines used in it. That approach is not satisfactory to me because it requires modifying the magazines. I've heard of other approaches to the LRBHO issue but I don't know what they are. Can anyone else provide direction towards them?

The Kalashnikov design does not provide a LRBHO. It's a serious limitation for me in the Saiga 12 because the shotgun can't be loaded with a full magazine if the bolt is closed and because it does not allow efficient loading through the ejection port. I've read explanations by people who work around the problem of loading with the bolt closed. Whatever they do is nothing like what I want to do. The more serious issue for me is the inability to toss shells into the ejection port once the magazine is exhausted. There's no workaround for that.

I'm interested to see someone object to excessive perceived recoil in a Saiga 12. My own sense is that the perceived recoil is a bit less than in other shotguns using the same ammunition.

It's fun to shoot and easily maneuvered. The 10 round AGP magazines do change the Saiga 12 balance but, to me, it's a slight improvement. The gun also just doesn't seem to care whether it's cleaned, another distinct advantage.

Correia
November 19, 2007, 01:19 PM
I love threads full of conjecture from a bunch of folks about guns they've never actually used. :)


I'll bet that you could load and fire 100 rounds of shotgun ammo faster from a tubular magazine semi-auto than some other shooter with a Saiga and 3 10-round detachable magazines even if he had all 3 mags fully loaded to begin with. He would get off the first 30 rounds faster than you, but after that, you would go past him like he was in reverse gear.

I can load a regular shotgun just a split second slower than the fastest in the world. I'm a little out of practice, but about two years ago, I was .5 of a second off the top in the country on the old fire a round, load 4, fire a round drill.

I can load twice as many shells into my Saiga in half the time.

If you started me with 3 loaded mags, and I had a race, I would still win. Because it is all about real estate. Speed loading a tube gun requires you to have the rounds stacked on your person in a matter built for speed. So you're wearing shells stacked on your belt, bandoleers, on the gun (side saddles) and even on your forearms. Once that real estate is used up, you're loading out of your pockets or out of a box because the rounds aren't prearranged for you to grab 3 or 4 at at time all pointing in the same direction.

And I've shot a lot of 3gun, and the longest shotgun stage I ever shot was about 55 rounds. Using 3, 8 round magazines, and two fives, I still beat the next closest tube fed by a considerable margin, because even once I'm dry, I can drop the gun onto the tac sling, and reload a magazine as fast as any single loader can load a tube fed.

The Kalashnikov design does not provide a LRBHO. It's a serious limitation for me in the Saiga 12 because the shotgun can't be loaded with a full magazine if the bolt is closed and because it does not allow efficient loading through the ejection port. I've read explanations by people who work around the problem of loading with the bolt closed. Whatever they do is nothing like what I want to do. The more serious issue for me is the inability to toss shells into the ejection port once the magazine is exhausted. There's no workaround for that. I have a reload methodology that overcomes this. I've got videos floating around on Youtube where I do a Saiga reload in under 2 seconds. I'm right handed. My left hand uses the magazine as a vertical foregrip. To reload, my right hand reaches up, pulls back the charging handle, and I hold the bolt open. I drop the mag with my left, pull another mag off my belt, rock and lock it in with my left, and then my right hand lets go of the bolt to return to the firing position.

For select slug, I wear a dump pouch in on my left side. I drop the mag into the pouch, do the same thing with pulling the bolt to the rear, and use my left to either insert a slug mag, or drop a single slug into the chamber. Let go of the bolt and return to the firing position.

If it is only one or two slugs to be fired, then the tube fed wins. If it is more than that, mag fed wins. Back and forth? Tube fed wins.

My Russian 8 rounds will fit into a 45 round AK mag pouch. Two 5 rounders fit into the old Vietnam era M16 pouches. I use kydex pouches on my belt to hold the big ones, and if it is a high round count match, I wear a vest set up with AK magazine pouches across my chest. At these round counts, if you're single loading shells, you're going to be using up a lot of real estate with bandollers and belt carriers too. No matter what, shotgun shells are big.


That thing looks like it handles like a D8 cat. I've done a Dozier Drill in 1.85 seconds with one. I don't care what it looks like. I don't look like a super model either. The darn things work, and that's all I care about.

Sorry, but I prefer a nice English stocked double for bird hunting. So would I, but last time I checked, there are more reasons to own guns than for shooting little animals. As for clays, it wasn't built for clays. Do you often go over to the rifle forum where people are talking about AR15s, sneer, and say, "well that sure would suck for Moose huntin'." :)

Good luck -- the last shipment of S-12's dried up (mostly) around September. The next one is due to hit the states around the end of the month (so rumor control says). Supposedly there will be another 800 coming into the country in December. Those will be allocated out to the distributors. At this point, none of us know how many we'll be getting.

If I got 50 today, I would have every one sold by tomorrow.

jlbraun
November 19, 2007, 02:06 PM
The one problem with the Saiga is that since it's an autoloader, it can't handle special ammo, like less-lethal rounds.

I see it handling beanbags like this:

*bang* (work charging handle) *bang* (work charging handle) *bang* (work charging handle)

Robert Hairless
November 19, 2007, 02:33 PM
Thanks Correia. I didn't know that what I was saying was conjecture or that I hadn't ever actually used a Saiga 12. :)

MCgunner
November 19, 2007, 02:50 PM
I love the line "You wouldn't use a woman just for having babies, would you?" They do need to make thanksgiving dressing

Oooooh, you better be glad my wife don't read this forum.:eek:


Quote:
Sorry, but I prefer a nice English stocked double for bird hunting.
So would I, but last time I checked, there are more reasons to own guns than for shooting little animals. As for clays, it wasn't built for clays. Do you often go over to the rifle forum where people are talking about AR15s, sneer, and say, "well that sure would suck for Moose huntin'."

You know that and I know that. However, I was answering THIS for the guy that doesn't know that.


As far as uses for an S12, they are versatile. I have mine set up for home defense, with the option to use it for bird hunting (an easy block installed in the 5-rd magazine) or deer hunting. It also makes people very jealous at shotgun and 3-gun competitions!

The one use I have for a shotgun other than safe room defense is birds. If I wanna shoot something not moving or on the ground, I have rifles. One exception is rabbits. Although I can hit a running rabbit with a .22, done it many times, if I'm out for meat, the job is easier with a shotgun.

I'm not a warrior, will leave that up to the younger guys. I don't even PLAY soldier. I'm a hunter, outdoorsman. I reckon the Saiga is plenty fine as a home defense gun, but so is a pump or even a coach gun. You don't need to lay down suppressive fire in your living room.

I think if I lived in one of those states that mandates deer hunting with a shotgun, though, I think I would buy a Saiga for deer hunting. Hey, if you can't use a rifle, at least you can carry a gun that LOOKS like one. :D Be pretty awesome for hogs in tight cover, too, but I have rifles and this isn't Indiana.

41mag
November 19, 2007, 04:11 PM
"10 rounds of 10ga 3.5" magnum slugs in a semi-auto is possibly too much awesome for one human to handle. "

Unless your Chuck Norris!

Halo is for Kids
November 19, 2007, 07:37 PM
Get it while you can. Get the 10 rounders too. NIB value in 10 years, who knows?

Fun to shoot though so really:
-Good Condition value in 10 years, who knows?

Deer Hunter
November 19, 2007, 08:43 PM
I don't see why it couldn't be used for bird hunting. I use my Stoeger 12 gauge coach gun for all my bird hunting needs and I do just fine. Better than my father's 1100 with a 28" barrel. Is there any reason why someone wouldn't use it for bird hunting, if legal in his or her state, besides it being aestetically off?

mr_blove
November 19, 2007, 08:47 PM
Everybody already hit the good points so all I have to say is I love mine and would never part with it.

Correia
November 19, 2007, 11:33 PM
Deer Hunter, the main issue with the Saiga on aerial targets is that the sight picture is a lot different than what we're used to. Your sight rail is elevated pretty high over the barrel because of the gas system. You can do it, but it takes some practice to get the picture right, and even then, it isn't as intuitive as busting clays or birds with a rib and a bead on a regular barrel.


Thanks Correia. I didn't know that what I was saying was conjecture This is the internet. We try not to let facts or reality stand in the way of a good post. :)

trbon8r
November 20, 2007, 12:00 AM
For real world use I don't understand what the big deal is with reloading speed for a shotgun. For shooting games like 3 gun competition I'm sure it matters, but I don't see the point for self defense use.

6+1 out of my 870 plus 5 rounds in the side saddle is good enough for dealing with any self defense situation that is remotely plausible. Please spare me any far fetched scenarios that involve half a dozen or more intruders breaking in to steal my Frank Sinatra collection. ;) If I thought that was possible or even likely, I'd have my AR-15 or my BM-59 by the bed instead of a shotgun.

I don't have anything against the Saiga at all, and have even contemplated buying one, but more for a novelty than anything else.

trbon8r
November 20, 2007, 12:01 AM
delete.......double tap

Robert Hairless
November 20, 2007, 02:30 AM
This is the internet. We try not to let facts or reality stand in the way of a good post.

Lead and we follow, Mon General.

I'd appreciate a link to one of your Youtube videos ("I've got videos floating around on Youtube where I do a Saiga reload in under 2 seconds") so I can see what a Saiga 12 looks like and how you do with it what you described. Searches for "Saiga 12" or "Correia" retrieve many videos that seem irrelevant.

Correia
November 20, 2007, 10:03 AM
The one that I can find quickly is http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxLoahwIwqU If I recall correctly, it is about half way through.

And the bad thing is that this isn't close to my best. I chicken wing my left elbow way too much. That's what happens when I load off of a vest instead of a belt.

MCgunner
November 20, 2007, 11:57 AM
I have no doubt you COULD use it for bird hunting. I use my coach gun for bird hunting, too, but it's a quick handing double. That Saiga, while I've never held one, has pistol grips and I know pistol grips guns are quite slow to the shoulder for me, have a couple of rifles so set up just for range play, mainly. I don't know how heavy the thing is, either.

Hey, I ain't totally against any gun...well, perhaps the RG revolver, LOL, but the original question asked for negatives and since I'm not really up on tacticool shotguns, don't care much for 'em, I just figured I'd add some negative since everyone else is taking the other side. Hey, I wouldn't mine owning one, looks like a fun gun to play with, but I wouldn't bird hunt with it. I have much better guns for that. I didn't feel there was a need for praise in this thread, though, since all the Saiga supporters are weighing in. :D Hey, buy one if you WANT it. No one except my wife thinks you need to have a NEED for a firearm to justify buying it.

jlbraun
November 20, 2007, 11:59 AM
Correia,

And the bad thing is that this isn't close to my best. I chicken wing my left elbow way too much.

Considering that I've asked you as well about this same technique, maybe it's time for a dedicated video of you doing this reload?

:D

Pete409
November 20, 2007, 01:48 PM
"I can load a regular shotgun just a split second slower than the fastest in the world. I'm a little out of practice, but about two years ago, I was .5 of a second off the top in the country on the old fire a round, load 4, fire a round drill.

I can load twice as many shells into my Saiga in half the time. "


Perhaps you can, but I wasn't referring to any world record speed holders. I was talking about the average guy with a shotgun.

True, I've never used a shotgun with detachable magazines, but I've loaded bunches of magazines for rifles and pistols in a wide variety of calibers. Without exception, they are all a pain in the ass to load as well as being very slow. I can think of no reason why loading detachable shotgun magazines would be any different.

With a tubular fed shotgun magazine, I can load shells into the mag tube with one hand while I hold the gun with the other hand. With detachable magazines, I would have to lay the shotgun down and load the magazines with both hands; then pick up the shotgun to insert the mag into the gun and resume firing.

Maybe YOU can load and shoot a shotgun with detachable magazine faster than one with a tubular magazine, but I'm quite certain that the reverse is true for me (and probably the average shooter too).

BTW, to do the 100 round contest, I figured to have the shells in a pouch on my belt or on a nearby table, not on the gun somewhere. So "real estate" is not an issue.

Correia
November 20, 2007, 01:58 PM
Well, you can rig your contest anywhich way you want until you get the results you're looking for then. :)

Because not only are you going to fire 100 rounds, you're going to have a TABLE to set your stuff on, because that is even more realistic.

I bring up 3gun, because that is the only group of shotgun shooters that come anywhere near that kind of round count. Only we do it on the move.

jlbraun, you know. I need to do that. I've been meaning to, but I don't own a video camera, and when I'm out shooting with somebody that has one, I tend to not think of it. (since for the last 2 years, I hardly ever get to shoot unless it is for business).

REOIV
November 20, 2007, 02:31 PM
True, I've never used a shotgun with detachable magazines, but I've loaded bunches of magazines for rifles and pistols in a wide variety of calibers. Without exception, they are all a pain in the ass to load as well as being very slow. I can think of no reason why loading detachable shotgun magazines would be any different.

Loading a single stack magazine is easy. Especially one built for 12 ga shells.

It is about as easy to load as slipping shells into a normal shotgun.

With a tubular fed shotgun magazine, I can load shells into the mag tube with one hand while I hold the gun with the other hand. With detachable magazines, I would have to lay the shotgun down and load the magazines with both hands; then pick up the shotgun to insert the mag into the gun and resume firing.

And with the saiga you could either put it on the table or let it fall to your side on a sling. While you hold the mag in one hand and load with the other....

Even then the time to insert a mag and rack it is trivial.


Maybe YOU can load and shoot a shotgun with detachable magazine faster than one with a tubular magazine, but I'm quite certain that the reverse is true for me (and probably the average shooter too).

Try an S12 some time. You'll be surprised how fast it goes. My friends I introduced to shooting found the Saiga 12 actually more intuitive to use than the pump guns etc. Mainly because they are used to seeing a mag be loaded and then put into a gun instead of a fixed magazine.

The only thing that threw them was the safety. That AK safety messes up most people, as they just don't recognize it for what it is at first.

BTW, to do the 100 round contest, I figured to have the shells in a pouch on my belt or on a nearby table, not on the gun somewhere. So "real estate" is not an issue.

Well at that point if you have a table....why not extra loaded mags?
Or a mag speed loader?

If speed of reloading is something that is that important try out a Saiga, they are great for the price, shoot damn near everything and easy to work with and maintain and loading is a snap.

Pete409
November 20, 2007, 03:38 PM
You guys seem to be missing (or purposely ignoring) the main point I was trying to make. That point is that as long as you have loaded detachable magazines handy, then, sure, they are faster and easier than loading 4 or 5 shells at a time into a tubular magazine shotgun.

BUT, once the supply of pre-loaded detachable magazines is exhausted, then the loading process is a slow PITA. Whether that is relevant to your combat games or whatever is up to you to decide. For me, the ease and convenience of a fixed tubular magazine is what I want in a repeating shotgun.

jlbraun
November 20, 2007, 03:49 PM
Because not only are you going to fire 100 rounds, you're going to have a TABLE to set your stuff on.

Hey, I carry a table with me in 3-gun. I even have a 3-point sling for it. Doesn't everybody do this?

:neener:

Look, I have 3 10rd magazines and 2 5rd magazines for my Saiga. That's 40 rounds. If I burn through all of those and there's still a threat, it's time to either run or switch to a recoilless rifle.

REOIV
November 20, 2007, 04:09 PM
You guys seem to be missing (or purposely ignoring) the main point I was trying to make. That point is that as long as you have loaded detachable magazines handy, then, sure, they are faster and easier than loading 4 or 5 shells at a time into a tubular magazine shotgun.

BUT, once the supply of pre-loaded detachable magazines is exhausted, then the loading process is a slow PITA.

We got your point, but it doesn't seem like you're understanding what we are saying. It isn't any more of a PITA to load a Saiga mag than it is to load a tube fed shotgun. It is a single stack mag and it loads almost the same way. Place shell on top of mag push down and back repeat.

If you can load a shot gun, you can easily load a Saiga 12 mag. It isn't a PITA try it yourself.

Even with both unloaded a brand new Saiga user can keep up with a traditional shotgun user.

Risasi
November 20, 2007, 04:58 PM
I own a couple Saiga 12's. And a bunch of 5-rd mags.

Personally I still prefer a good pump action Mossberg 835, with changeable barrels. Just because I like to be difficult. And really I only use shotties for hunting and clay.

However, once one figures out how to hold the action open when inserting a new mag, and how to quickly reload a mag (Larry brought up a good point about having a proper sling for his shotgun, for handsfree reloading), I have found them to be less cumbersome and just as fast or faster to reload than a regular tube fed shotgun.

In fact I have many times used my Saigas for clay shooting AND hunting.

MCgunner
November 20, 2007, 07:52 PM
Well, this reloading thing might be relevant to cops and military or just for games, but I fail to see how reloading speed is relevant to me, a common ordinary citizen/hunter. Any defensive use I might ned of a shotgun, I can get it done with a twice pipe. Two rounds is plenty. I have a .38 on the night stand if I need it.

Correia
November 21, 2007, 10:52 AM
but I fail to see how reloading speed is relevant to me, a common ordinary citizen/hunter. Because nobody has every survived a gunfight and said to themselves afterward "Damn it! I brought too much ammo!" :)

MCgunner
November 21, 2007, 01:57 PM
But, I've been assaulted twice and I didn't have a shotgun. Once, a 9mm, the other, a piddlin' .25 auto. I'm still here. I don't make a habit of walkin' into Walmart or down the street with a shotgun. The only real defensive use I have for one is in my bedroom/safe room.

If I were a cop or swat team member or such, yeah, I'd worry a lot about it.

Robert Hairless
November 21, 2007, 02:00 PM
Correia, are you the handsome bearded gent with the Saiga 12 starting at 5:09?

If so I see that you move your strong hand off the trigger and reach forward to open the closed bolt while supporting the shotgun against your shoulder with your strong arm. As you do so you use your weak hand to extract the old magazine, toss it onto the ground, and continue with your weak hand to obtain a fresh magazine which you insert while continuing to hold the bolt open with your strong hand. After that fresh magazine is inserted you release the bolt to chamber a round, fire two shots, and pause when the magazine works loose at 5:18 so you slam its bottom to seat it properly and continue firing.

It's a noteworthy technique and you are well coordinated at it. You're also much faster than I would have conjectured had I ever actually seen a Saiga 12. No wonder you look carefully at the gun while doing those manipulations: I couldn't take my eyes away either. :)

Correia
November 23, 2007, 03:00 PM
Robert, the mag didn't come loose, I released it with my thumb when I talked to the guy on the timer. It is a rock & lock magazine, it wouldn't have fed if it wasn't locked in.

I don't really watch the gun when I do it either. Normally I try to reload while moving, because that is better on the clock during stages. That one was just slapped together because we were out shooting, and the guy with the camera saw me shooting that, and asked me to do one for the video.

m1009
November 23, 2007, 03:35 PM
well, there are a bunch of mags for sale on GunsAmerica .com-running about $44 each I think. One ad says he's got 40 of them. I've heard that the Saiga is really good, but I've never shot one.
Am getting a USAS-12 myself, just waiting for the paperwork! :)

TonyRumore
November 23, 2007, 05:20 PM
If you need something with a short barrel and decent capacity, the Saiga is the only option. Those tube fed guns can only hold 2 shots when the barrel gets down to around 8". The Saiga still has 10. There is nothing to debate here.

Tony

Robert Hairless
November 23, 2007, 08:44 PM
Thanks for explaining, Correia.

Ready2Defend
November 23, 2007, 11:52 PM
I am now kicking myself for not buying one at the gun show last month! :banghead: I saw several and hesitated - he who hesitates is lost. Are you sure your all not salesman for saiga?

rbernie
December 26, 2007, 11:41 AM
Supposedly there will be another 800 coming into the country in December. Those will be allocated out to the distributors. At this point, none of us know how many we'll be getting.OOOO, OOOOOH! I got one from Santa....

<tee hee>

:D

GeezerwithGuns
December 26, 2007, 12:59 PM
Really neat looking gun, but it would be a detriment for me to use in my "practical / tactical" shoots where we have to do tactical reloading during the exercises where the number, type and order (buck / slug / birdshot) of rounds is variable. On some, I would have to carry three separate mags or a single mag that would have to be taken out and reloaded on the fly. I think it would be pretty slow.

frankd4
December 26, 2007, 01:24 PM
It is the best ever 10 round mags as well as 20 round drums are easy to come by.

Rustynuts
December 26, 2007, 01:36 PM
The guys on the Saiga-12 forum are also working on a last round bolt hold open device along with quick bolt drop and mag release, and a straight-in magwell like an AR. There's a video of this somewhere on youtube. Once those get installed, there's no stopping the Saiga!

okiewita40
December 27, 2007, 09:35 AM
The Saiga is an awesome weapon no matter what platform you get it in either rifle or shothgun.

rocinante
December 27, 2007, 01:38 PM
another saiga owner here that loves his. Not the shotgun for EVERY activity but it is a fun gun.

VirgilCaine
December 27, 2007, 06:22 PM
On some, I would have to carry three separate mags or a single mag that would have to be taken out and reloaded on the fly. I think it would be pretty slow.

Uh, what? Why would you not have three or more magazines anyway?

Do you usually only carry one AR or AK magazine? :confused:

Gunfighter123
December 28, 2007, 12:16 AM
Saiga 12s 4 Ever !!!! I've owned a lot of shotguns in 35+ years of shooting ---- Rem. 1100s , 11-87s , Winchester 1400s , Browning auto-5s , and even a couple USAS-12s { before THEY reclassified them as a DD} -- ya gotta love the Saiga 12s --- buck , birdshot or slugs -- mine eats them all like cotton candy;)
http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b199/Jailbird123/s12_3.jpg

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