Shipping Firearms


PDA






divemedic
November 18, 2007, 11:22 AM
Forgive me if this is one of subjects that is beat to death like CCW badges or post office carry, but I am looking for some facts.

Last year, I wanted to send 4 of my Sigs in to the Sig Arms factory to get some trigger work done. I tried to ship them via UPS and FedEx, but they would not accept the shipment, claiming that I was not an FFL and could not ship firearms of any kind. A call to the customer service lines, and UPS would not accept them at all, while FedEx was going to require me to overnight them at a significantly higher price.

I checked around and found this law:

27 CFR 478

§478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part.

Once I read this, I took it to meant that I did not have to declare them, so I put "machined parts" on the form and sent them ground. I got them back from the plant, no problems.

Then, last month, I bought a book called "Florida Firearms: Law, use, and ownership, Sixth Edition." It is written by a Florida Attorney by the name of Jon Gutmacher. I found it to be a good read, and he used good back up, with a couple of exceptions.

One of those exceptions was the statement that it is a felony to ship a handgun via commercial carrier, unless you declare to the carrier that it is a handgun. I emailed him, and included a copy of the law. His only reply was "I think you are incorrect, and so does the ATF."

He did not include any back up or reference for his opinion. My girlfriend is a paralegal, so we have access to Lexis. I searched and could not find a single case that contradicted my opinion and supported his.

Does anyone have any information on this topic?

If you enjoyed reading about "Shipping Firearms" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Telperion
November 18, 2007, 01:17 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v601/waterhouse/batfshipping.jpg

Mojo-jo-jo
November 18, 2007, 01:34 PM
UPS told you wrong. They DO ship firearms. Fedex does as well, but is more expensive. You should have asked for a supervisor.

See: http://www.ups.com/content/us/en/resources/prepare/guidelines/firearms.html

Basically, according to shipper's policy, you do have to declare. UPS will ship long guns ground but requires handguns go overnight. IIRC, Fedex requires all guns go overnight ($$$).

While it is *legal* not to declare a firearm when shipping to a licensee (see letter in post above), it is not a good idea. If the firearm is lost/stolen/damaged, you will not be able to collect any insurance due to your failure to comply with company regulations/policies. Furthermore, it may be *illegal* in state law. My state of Georgia requires that a firearm be declared if it is brought on to (or even near) the property of a common carrier--however this is an unusual state law that was a knee jerk reaction to 9/11.

In my dealings shipping firearms with UPS, the tell me that they will only ship if at least one end is an FFL, meaning that you can ship to a dealer/manufacturer or a dealer/manufacturer can ship to you. According to their policy, you can not ship to another non-licensee. They tell me additionally that if you are a non-licensee that they will not ship to a residential address unless you have a copy of an FFL with that address on it.

In my experience UPS is much cheaper than Fedex for firearms, and if you have to use overnight (handgun) you can use "next day air saver" which will save you about $10-15 over regular next-day air.

esq_stu
November 18, 2007, 01:40 PM
Several times I had to tell the FEDEX clerk to call corporate and get instructions. After the wait for the call, the shipment always went out.

divemedic
November 18, 2007, 01:46 PM
That's great, but now it throws a pall over the rest of the book. I don't know what I can believe in it or not.

As far as insurance, I declare the parts are machined parts, and that the value is $X. If they lose it, they pay.

It is my understanding that the "overnight" rule was because too many UPS employees were stealing guns. IMO, your lack of ability to control your employees does not constitute a requirement for me to pay you more money.

Mojo-jo-jo
November 18, 2007, 02:41 PM
It is my understanding that the "overnight" rule was because too many UPS employees were stealing guns. IMO, your lack of ability to control your employees does not constitute a requirement for me to pay you more money.
I agree with your sentiment, however, it's their sandbox and you have to play by their rules. If you don't like them you are free to get your transportation services elsewhere. UPS and FEDEX are both private companies and can determine what they will and will not transport, as well as what their terms are for doing so.

As far as insurance, I declare the parts are machined parts, and that the value is $X. If they lose it, they pay.
Not if they determine that it is/was a firearm. Trust me, insurance is looking for any reason NOT to pay, and by showing that it was not shipped in accordance with company rules for shipping, you have just voided your insurance coverage. Once you are required to verify the valuation of the contents (ie. provide a receipt or appraisal), the "machined parts" description will fly right out the window, at least as far as the insurer is concerned. In an insurance claim, you will be required to submit an affidavit describing the contents and valuation exactly. If they catch you lying on this, you can go to jail for insurance fraud.

I have a fair amount of experience shipping many items, including firearms, for both personal and business purposes. Insurance is a sham, and they will try to find any reason not to pay. I recently shipped some computer equipment via UPS that arrived damaged. They refused to pay insurance because, according to them, the packaging was inadequate. The packaging in question: A DOT certified original shipping crate specifically designed for this equipment.

Telperion
November 18, 2007, 04:13 PM
Why not just write SIG mod. P22x s/n #xxxxxx in the shipping declaration and otherwise stay quiet? That way you've given a perfectly faithful description of the contents for insurance purposes and I've never seen one of those clerks ask questions.

divemedic
November 18, 2007, 05:28 PM
it's their sandbox and you have to play by their rules. If you don't like them you are free to get your transportation services elsewhere. UPS and FEDEX are both private companies and can determine what they will and will not transport, as well as what their terms are for doing so.

True, and as a private individual, I am free to not disclose what is in my package, as long as I am within the law.

As you said, if they do not want to pay the insurance claim, that is up to them, and they will refuse to pay regardless of whether or not I disclose the contents. That is what lawsuits are for. As long as I can convince a court that my refusing to be specific on the shipping declaration had nothing to do with the carrier losing or damaging my package, I will get my money.

Autolycus
November 18, 2007, 06:00 PM
Originally posted by divemedic: It is my understanding that the "overnight" rule was because too many UPS employees were stealing guns. IMO, your lack of ability to control your employees does not constitute a requirement for me to pay you more money. Your need to ship firearms does not give you the right to tell me how to run my business. If you dislike company policy, dont ship through them. Go somewhere where they will ship as you like.

Autolycus
November 18, 2007, 06:04 PM
Orginally posted by divemedic: True, and as a private individual, I am free to not disclose what is in my package, as long as I am within the law.

As you said, if they do not want to pay the insurance claim, that is up to them, and they will refuse to pay regardless of whether or not I disclose the contents. That is what lawsuits are for. As long as I can convince a court that my refusing to be specific on the shipping declaration had nothing to do with the carrier losing or damaging my package, I will get my money. Apparently you did not read the letter sent out by the ATF. You have to declare that iti is a firearm. It is the law.

Why do so many people try to circumvent the law and give suggestions. If you dont like it change the law, and until it is changed follow it!!!

kingpin008
November 18, 2007, 06:37 PM
Why not just write SIG mod. P22x s/n #xxxxxx in the shipping declaration and otherwise stay quiet? That way you've given a perfectly faithful description of the contents for insurance purposes and I've never seen one of those clerks ask questions.

Because that likely doesn't count as "disclosure" which the rules state must be done. It's not a matter of describing what's in the package - it's about declaring the package contains a firearm. Also - what good is it to write in the brand/model/serial of the gun, if the clerks/package handlers don't know what a SIG model whatever even is?

And I agree with others above - you may be allowed within the law to NOT disclose what the package really contains, but when you CHOOSE to pay them to ship said package, you must ACCEPT their terms. Just like they can set the terms for their business, you can choose not to patronize that service if you don't like the rules. But playing the "I have the law on my side" card doesn't really work.

divemedic
November 18, 2007, 08:23 PM
Apparently you did not read the letter sent out by the ATF. You have to declare that iti is a firearm. It is the law.

Read the law again, and tell me where it says that:

27 CFR 478

§478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector, any package or other container in which there is any firearm or ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without violating any provision of this part.

kingpin008
November 18, 2007, 10:12 PM
What's so hard to understand about "their rules are their rules"?

I mean honestly - just because it's ok as far as Federal law goes, doesn't mean the state's laws don't override that. And it also doesn't mean that the company that you're dealing with has no right to make their own rules governing the way that you're allowed to ship items with them.

Seriously - if you don't like it, don't use them! Why is it such an issue with you to purposefully go against the rules of a business that you have no obligation to patronize in the first place just because you disagree with they way they do things?

yardgoat
November 18, 2007, 10:53 PM
I sent a a revolver back to Smith & Wesson for repair, It had to go next day air at the cost of $42.00, Smith & Wesson returned it to me UPS Ground and they left on my door step. Go Figure.

Mojo-jo-jo
November 19, 2007, 01:28 AM
Divemedic, you asked the question.

It appears to me that you just wanted to argue about disclosure.

If you have no desire to disclose, then fine don't. That's up to you. However, when they lose your gun and refuse to pay, you will suffer the consequences. No court will pay you for an item lost in shipping that you did not insure. Read the shipper's terms of service: By shipping an item with them, you agree to release them from liability. The shipper is not obligated to protect your item. That's why you buy insurance--so the insurance will pay for your loss. If you don't comply with their terms, you won't get paid.

If you don't like the shipper/insurer's rules, then drive the gun where it needs to go, but don't ask for advice and then reject what you get. I guarantee you that MANY people on THR have been through this before, some of them have lost guns in shipping. There is a lot of experience here.

divemedic
November 19, 2007, 08:45 AM
I asked for what the law says, not about people's opinions on whether or not I have a moral duty to tell UPS what I am shipping. Whether or not UPS is liable if they lose a firearm has nothing to do with whether or not I am obligated under criminal law to disclose.

The first poster answered my question: As I thought, disclosure is not required under criminal law, if shipping to a license holder. I was hoping to get more facts, but instead, the majority of the answers after that talked about the POLICIES of the common carrier and the morality of whether or not their right to demand disclosure means they are free to lose your packages without liability.

That is the problem when you try to discuss law with people- you often get opinion, conjecture, and people telling you how it "ought to be" instead of how it is. It reminds me of a girlfriend I had who could not believe that my CWP allowed me to carry in a bank. When I pointed out that a man willing to rob a bank is willing to illegally carry, she looked sheepish and said "I guess you are right."

The problem is, the law is not what we want it to be, it isn't about what is fair, it isn't about right or wrong. It just is what it is. I was just trying to find out if there was a law I wasn't aware of, but I guess no one here is aware of it, either.

Thanks for the help.

PILMAN
November 19, 2007, 12:13 PM
I shipped through Fedex without any problem. I told them I was shipping out a firearm for repair and he asked if it was a handgun or rifle. I paid the money and sent it out 3 day, no problems and no hold up.

Unless your transferring ownership, then you should not need a FFL for repair.

Autolycus
November 19, 2007, 01:44 PM
divemedic: So you came on here to find out the law? ANd then when you found out the law was something you did not like, you choose to ignore the law?

Everyone here probably agrees with you that the law stinks. And the company policies stink as well. However we value property rights and respect other peoples wishes. You choose not to and we are chastising you for it as well as your willingness to disregard the law because you disagree with it.

divemedic
November 19, 2007, 03:50 PM
Where did you get the idea that the law was something I didn't like? It says I don't have to disclose, and even the ATF agrees. The argument was whether or not I should take my business elsewhere if I don't like a corporate policy that has absolutely nothing to do with the law.

The law says I do not have to disclose, so I don't. If UPS and FEDEX don't like it, too bad. You say that we value property rights and we value other people's wishes. Why should I worry about their wishes to the detriment of my own? I find it very humorous that people get so fired up over the government looking into your private possessions, but have no problem with a business doing the same.

brickeyee
November 19, 2007, 03:58 PM
My guess is that the wrong question was asked.
While (a) would indicate you do not need to declare when shipping to an FFL, (d) mandates that ALL firearm containing packages be signed for at receipt.



[Code of Federal Regulations]
[Title 27, Volume 3]
[Revised as of April 1, 2007]
From the U.S. Government Printing Office via GPO Access
[CITE: 27CFR478.31]

[Page 33]

TITLE 27--ALCOHOL, TOBACCO PRODUCTS, AND FIREARMS

CHAPTER II--BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS, AND EXPLOSIVES,
DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE

PART 478_COMMERCE IN FIREARMS AND AMMUNITION--Table of Contents

Subpart C_Administrative and Miscellaneous Provisions

Sec. 478.31 Delivery by common or contract carrier.

(a) No person shall knowingly deliver or cause to be delivered to
any common or contract carrier for transportation or shipment in
interstate or foreign commerce to any person other than a licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector,
any package or other container in which there is any firearm or
ammunition without written notice to the carrier that such firearm or
ammunition is being transported or shipped: Provided, That any passenger
who owns or legally possesses a firearm or ammunition being transported
aboard any common or contract carrier for movement with the passenger in
interstate or foreign commerce may deliver said firearm or ammunition
into the custody of the pilot, captain, conductor or operator of such
common or contract carrier for the duration of that trip without
violating any provision of this part.
(b) No common or contract carrier shall require or cause any label,
tag, or other written notice to be placed on the outside of any package,
luggage, or other container indicating that such package, luggage, or
other container contains a firearm.
(c) No common or contract carrier shall transport or deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm or ammunition with knowledge
or reasonable cause to believe that the shipment, transportation, or
receipt thereof would be in violation of any provision of this part:
Provided, however, That the provisions of this paragraph shall not apply
in respect to the transportation of firearms or ammunition in in-bond
shipment under Customs laws and regulations.
(d) No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written
acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other
container in which there is a firearm: Provided, That this paragraph
shall not apply with respect to the return of a firearm to a passenger
who places firearms in the carrier's custody for the duration of the
trip.

[33 FR 18555, Dec. 14, 1968. Redesignated at 40 FR 16385, Apr. 15, 1975,
and amended by T.D. ATF-354, 59 FR 7112, Feb. 14, 1994; T.D. ATF-361, 60
FR 10786, Feb. 27, 1995]

divemedic
November 19, 2007, 04:20 PM
It does not require anything of the sort. Read it again:

(d) No common or contract carrier shall knowingly deliver in
interstate or foreign commerce any firearm without obtaining written
acknowledgement of receipt from the recipient of the package or other
container in which there is a firearm: Provided, That this paragraph
shall not apply with respect to the return of a firearm to a passenger
who places firearms in the carrier's custody for the duration of the
trip.

The key word is knowingly. I see no disclosure requirement there, either. So, this portion of the law doesn't seem to require disclosure, either.

Gator
November 19, 2007, 04:40 PM
Have you ever heard of Lonny Baxter, former Houston Rocket basketball player? Arrested, charged, and convicted of failing to notify FedEx of a handgun shipment. He is now a felon and has lost his right to own firearms because he DID NOT NOTIFY FedEx he was shipping a handgun.

Baxter pled guilty and maybe he could have won if he fought it, but ATF takes the position that you must notify. Is a potential loss of tens of thousands of dollars in legal costs and the potential loss of your firearm rights worth it over a few extra bucks for shipping?

shield20
November 19, 2007, 04:45 PM
Baxter paid for the four guns, but had a female friend fill out the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives registration form. He then shipped the guns to another friend in College Park, picking them up later, according to the statement of facts.

Was the friend an FFL?

glockman19
November 19, 2007, 04:46 PM
I am returning a Kimber to the factory for FTF & FTRTB issues. They are arranging for FedEx or UPS to pick it up at my house. I am to package it unloaded in the case and then in a cardboard box. They will send it directly back to me upon repair.

Gator
November 19, 2007, 05:04 PM
Was the friend an FFL?

I take your point. If he had been shipping to an FFL notification would not have been needed (according to the info in the posted ATF letter). But my point is that you may be opening yourself up to a whole lot of trouble by trying to save a few bucks. If an undeclared gun is lost or damaged UPS/FedEx has no obligation to pay, and if ATF takes an interest in you, who knows what charges they could come up with. :(

divemedic
November 19, 2007, 08:49 PM
OK, so can we say that there is no requirement under CRIMINAL law for you to declare a firearm if shipping to an FFL?

Then, the other half is whether or not the carrier is obligated to compensate you for your loss in the event they lose a shipment, and it turns out that you didn't declare the contents to be a firearm.

I say that this is a different topic from the original question, as this fall squarely within CIVIL law. This becomes a contract dispute at this point.

PILMAN
November 20, 2007, 01:22 PM
http://www.sportsline.com/collegebasketball/story/10261990



Ex-Terp, former Bull Baxter pleads guilty to illegally shipping guns


July 19, 2007
CBS SportsLine.com wire reports


Share this page.

GREENBELT, Md. -- Former Maryland basketball star Lonny Baxter pleaded guilty Thursday to illegally shipping guns through Federal Express, his second guilty plea in less than a year for gun-related offenses.
Advertisement

The 28-year-old Baxter could receive probation or up to seven months in prison under a sentencing recommendation agreed to by his lawyer and federal prosecutors. Baxter, who is scheduled to be sentenced Aug. 31, also is barred from owning firearms in the future.

Last August, Baxter was arrested by the Secret Service for firing off a Glock handgun in the air near the White House. He pleaded guilty to gun charges and was sentenced to two months in prison.

Baxter admitted sending three handguns and a rifle from Houston to College Park using Federal Express in July 2006, according to a statement read in U.S. District Court. Federal law requires senders to inform shippers if a delivery contains firearms.

"I should think he would feel relieved to get this behind him," his attorney, Richard Finci, said after Thursday's hearing.

Baxter helped lead Maryland to the NCAA national title in 2002 and was selected in the second round of the NBA Draft by the Chicago Bulls later that year.

But he struggled as a professional, moving between several NBA teams before signing with the Italian team Montepaschi Siena last year as a forward. Siena won the Italian league championship earlier this year.
AP NEWS
The Associated Press News Service

EOD Guy
November 20, 2007, 02:06 PM
http://www.sportsline.com/collegebas...story/10261990



Ex-Terp, former Bull Baxter pleads guilty to illegally shipping guns

He was convicted of shipping to an unlicensed person withour declaring the contents of the package. Notification in that case is required by law.

It's shipment to a licensee where notification is not required.

PILMAN
November 20, 2007, 04:30 PM
Oh I see, didn't he violate federal law by shipping directly to a person instead of an FFL to begin with though?

Liko81
November 20, 2007, 04:38 PM
You can ship TO an FFL, however you cannot receive FROM an FFL through a courier unless you are an FFL yourself. Most manufacturers ask that in order to make the shipping process as painless as possible that you conduct the entire thing through an FFL. I've yet to find a dealer that, provided they didn't have to pay shipping/receiving costs, wouldn't act as a middleman for such a shipment.

Couriers can refuse to accept packages containing firearms for a number of reasons from liability (some bozo ships a loaded firearm and the UPS guy drops it the box resulting in an AD; who's liable?) to legality (Firearms transfer requires log entries in one or more bound books, and I believe that applies to couriers as well. Some just won't bother).

curmudgeon and anarchist
November 20, 2007, 05:03 PM
Depends on the local UPS.

My suggestion. Buy the box in advance and pack them yourself.

When you get to UPS, tell them you are sending sporting goods. They probably know what you are sending, but they don't care.

Send your guns overnight air. This is more expensive, but it is a more secure way to ship.

Also, gun companies will sometimes mail you a label, especially for warranty work. Call them and ask for one.

curmudgeon and anarchist
November 20, 2007, 05:04 PM
Depends on the local UPS.

My suggestion. Buy the box in advance and pack them yourself.

When you get to UPS, tell them you are sending sporting goods. They probably know what you are sending, but they don't care.

Send your guns overnight air. This is more expensive, but it is a more secure way to ship.

Also, gun companies will sometimes mail you a prepaid label, especially for warranty work. Call them and ask for one.

1x2
November 20, 2007, 05:51 PM
You can ship TO an FFL, however you cannot receive FROM an FFL through a courier unless you are an FFL yourself.As a further clarification, you (or I, as non-FFL holders) can receive a firearm from a FFL holder "in return" that you already own, for instance, if you return it to a firearms manufacturer or gunsmith for service or repair, etc. Smith & Wesson, Colt, etc. do this constantly.

To wit (from the first page of this thread; UPS requires an adult signature at the receiving end, but I suppose there's no harm if they suspend their own rules occasionally):I sent a a revolver back to Smith & Wesson for repair, It had to go next day air at the cost of $42.00, Smith & Wesson returned it to me UPS Ground and they left on my door step. Go Figure.S&W is better insured than we are :) .
1x2

American_Pit_Bull
November 25, 2007, 11:29 AM
Originally posted by Tecumseh:
Apparently you did not read the letter sent out by the ATF. You have to declare that iti is a firearm. It is the law.

Why do so many people try to circumvent the law and give suggestions. If you dont like it change the law, and until it is changed follow it!!!

Originally posted by Tecumseh:
divemedic: So you came on here to find out the law? ANd then when you found out the law was something you did not like, you choose to ignore the law?It seems that we have a simple reading comprehension problem here... And it is not that of divemedic.

brickeyee
November 25, 2007, 02:30 PM
"The key word is knowingly. I see no disclosure requirement there, either. So, this portion of the law doesn't seem to require disclosure, either."

You still don't get it.
The wording is so that the carrier cannot be prosecuted for the SHIPPERS failure.
There is NO WAY they can comply with the signature requirement without the SHIPPER declaring the package contents.

1x2
November 25, 2007, 11:53 PM
In the instant case, where divemedic is trying to send handguns to a FFL holder for service:

Neither the law nor the ATF letter reflecting the law require the contents to be "declared" ON THE BOX when shipping to a FFL holder. Both UPS AND FEDEX DO NOT WANT the box labeled as containing a firearm. Both require that the shipper inform the driver who picks up the shipment that the box contains a handgun (informing the driver is not required for a long gun).

BTW, where both carriers require "adult signature" at the receiving end, this is done without "declaring" the contents of the package. One simply checks the "adult signature" required box on the "request for shipment" shipping form.

1x2

From the UPS website:
Shipping Firearms
Special Procedures for Shipping Firearms
Use These UPS Services for Your Firearm Shipment
Firearms will be transported only between licensed importers, licensed manufacturers, licensed dealers, and licensed collectors, as defined in the United States Gun Control Act of 1968, law enforcement agencies of the United States or of any department or agency thereof and law enforcement agencies of any state or department agency, or political subdivision thereof, and between persons not otherwise prohibited from shipping firearms by federal, state or local law and when such shipment complies with all applicable federal, state and local laws.

* You must ship your packages that contain handguns with UPS Next Day Air® Early A.M.®, UPS Next Day Air®, or UPS Next Day Air Saver® services
* Your packages that contain firearms will not be accepted for shipment at UPS Drop Boxes, with UPS Express CriticalSM service, at locations of The UPS Store® or any third-party retailer, or with international services.


Follow These Packing Requirements

* Your packages that contain handguns must be separated from other packages being delivered to UPS
* Ammunition cannot be included in your packages that contain firearms (including handguns)


About Documentation and Labeling

* When you are shipping your package that contains a firearm with UPS, you must affix a UPS label requesting an adult signature upon delivery


Getting Your Firearm Shipment to UPS

* You can only ship your package that contains a firearm from UPS daily pickup accounts and through UPS Customer Centers
* When you are shipping a package that contains a handgun, you must verbally notify the UPS driver or UPS Customer Center clerk
* You can use UPS daily pickup accounts to ship firearms, not including handguns, through UPS Internet Shipping, UPS On-Call PickupSM, and One-Time Pickup
* Your packages that contain firearms will not be accepted for shipment at UPS Drop Boxes, with UPS Express CriticalSM service, at locations of The UPS Store or any third-party retailer, or with international services
* See the terms and conditions in the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service for shipping firearms

If you read the UPS Tariff/Terms and Conditions of Service, "Total Protection Services" and "Constant Surveillance Services" are delineated; however, there is not additional shipping information to be derived therefrom, in addition to what is italicized above, from their website.

BTW, if you call their 1-800-number, and persist to speak with a shipping specialist, they'll tell you what's printed above. UPS local employee stories may vary :) .

American_Pit_Bull
November 26, 2007, 04:04 PM
Neither the law nor the ATF letter reflecting the law require the contents to be "declared" ON THE BOX when shipping to a FFL holder.By law, you do not have to declare the handgun to the shipper at all. Only by the shippers' policy, are you required to inform them.

EOD Guy
November 26, 2007, 09:03 PM
Neither the law nor the ATF letter reflecting the law require the contents to be "declared" ON THE BOX when shipping to a FFL holder.

By law, you do not have to declare the handgun to the shipper at all. Only by the shippers' policy, are you required to inform them.

Be careful! That only applies if you are shipping to a licensee. If you are shipping to a nonlicensee, notification is required.

Soybomb
November 26, 2007, 09:27 PM
Apparently you did not read the letter sent out by the ATF. You have to declare that iti is a firearm. It is the law.

Why do so many people try to circumvent the law and give suggestions. If you dont like it change the law, and until it is changed follow it!!!
Tecumseh I do believe you need to read the letter again. He is shipping his handguns to the sigarms factory, a ffl. He has no legal obligation to notify them of the contents of the box since its going to a ffl.

1x2
November 27, 2007, 12:45 AM
By law, you do not have to declare the handgun to the shipper at all. Only by the shippers' policy, are you required to inform them. Just right :)

If you are shipping to a nonlicensee, notification is required. Hmmm- is this possible? How would a non-FFL holder come into possession of a handgun that belongs to the non-FFL holder being shipped to?

It seems clear that this is not an issue for shipper/FFL holders, but a non-FFL holder can't ship to a non-FFL holder a handgun that does not belong to the shippee/recipient- at least interstate- that has to be transferred via a FFL holder. No?

1x2

Larenegade
November 27, 2007, 02:17 AM
What a subject to follow all the different opinions and the law. Just adding a experience I had here and something to keep in mind.

I have shipped thru UPS, Fed Ex and USPS and never had a problem except with UPS.

I had returned a Sig P2340 for factory repair and was hospitalized while it was at Sig. On the day I was having surgery out of state the pistol was returned to my residence without my knowledge. I had notified Sig to send the pistol to a licensed dealer due to being out of state and they were to keep it until my return. That didn't happen. UPS left the pistol on the 18th at my residence and the driver, I later found out, had signed my name on the shipping receipt saying I had accepted the weapon. Being in surgery out of state that was not possible of course. The driver left the weapon outside at the front door of my residence. Of coarse the box clearly stated it was from Sig and that it contained a firearm. Unbelieveably the gun was still there 10 days later when someone I sent to check my residence found it. The yard workers were honest is all I can say. I was lucky.

I recommend that anyone shipping follow up with the tracing information and track the package to and from the company. I was lucky and yes it was insured but the chances are to great that you might have a problem. Don't sit and wait for your package. Know where it is all the time. Most gun manufactures will notify you if requested, that the work is finished and it is being shipped for you to follow and know the tracking information. Get to know your driver if possible. Keep in touch with the place you shipped to and ask them to notify you upon returning the weapon. I have hade UPS leave guns outside and never knock and I later find the box soaking wet from rain, containing two high grade O/U shotguns, leave someone else's package is a common mistake also. I will never use UPS again. I have been told by attendents for UPS the cost to ship a pistol for warranty work was going to be $40+ dollars. Because it was a firearm it cost more she said. Then I go to another UPS station and ship the same package for $16 dollars overnight. Different empolyee different story. If I hadn't shipped prior and didn't know the cost, I would probably have paid them the $40+ bucks for nothing. I have never had a problem once with FED EX. I still track each time to try to eliminate any human error I can though. Hope this helps someone.

Soybomb
November 27, 2007, 03:59 AM
It seems clear that this is not an issue for shipper/FFL holders, but a non-FFL holder can't ship to a non-FFL holder a handgun that does not belong to the shippee/recipient- at least interstate- that has to be transferred via a FFL holder. No?
C&R FFL holders can receive handguns interstate but I don't believe the 03 ffl is excemp from the notification like the others. Most states still allow you to send guns intrastate to other non dealers too without a ffl I believe.

EOD Guy
November 27, 2007, 09:34 AM
There are many exceptions to the regulations that allow shipments of firearms to nonlicensees. Some examples are returns to the owner from repair or modification, shipments to and between law enforcement agencies, bequests from an estate, shipments to military officers for official use, shipments from the CMP, and several others.

Shipments of those types would require notification to the shipper.

American_Pit_Bull
November 27, 2007, 07:07 PM
It seems clear that this is not an issue for shipper/FFL holders, but a non-FFL holder can't ship to a non-FFL holder a handgun that does not belong to the shippee/recipient- at least interstate- that has to be transferred via a FFL holder. No?That is true... I could not ship interstate, but I could complete a transaction, with a resident of my own state, and ship directly to him. FedEx will not allow this, but UPS only states that you have to follow all applicable laws and it is legal to ship to a non-ffl in states that allow private transfers without the involvement of an FFL.

If you enjoyed reading about "Shipping Firearms" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!