ar: 223 vs 308


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trigga
November 18, 2007, 06:57 PM
i'm a big ar15/m16 fan. i have my mind set on an armalite's ar10 and ar15. i plan on using the gun for deer hunting... what i was curious was will the .223 drop the deer if the shot is placed right, will the .223 be strong enough? i compare the bullet to my 30-06 and it's a lot smaller... with the 30-06 one shot center mass and the deers just drop. only debate is that the ar10 is a lot of $$$ and out of my budget.

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MudPuppy
November 18, 2007, 07:03 PM
A 223 is not legal in many places. I think its probably capable for most deer in my area, provided you make an accurate shot and the range is pretty close. That said, I'd recommend just a tad heavier/bigger--I think something a bit more powerful allows for a clean, humane kill even if everything isn't just right.

trigga
November 18, 2007, 07:16 PM
the regulation here (WI) is:
barrel length 16" or more, overall 26" or more, center fire of .22 or larger, no fmj, one shot per pull of trigger. my cousin used and ar (.223) last season so i'm pretty sure if it meets the regulations than it would be fine...
how much bigger is the .223 from the .22? would this be the .22LR round being compared?

Outlaws
November 18, 2007, 07:20 PM
There are AR15s in other calibers that might work better, depending on the distance you plan to hunt.

Bartkowski
November 18, 2007, 07:27 PM
A .223 is a .22 centerfire. I have heard of many people using .223's and deer with success, you just have to be careful where you hit the deer and only take shots you know you can make.

trigga
November 18, 2007, 07:28 PM
100 yards max, give of take 25 yards... i don't usually make shots over 100 yards anyways. who makes them in other caliber than the .308 and .223? these are the most common.

trigga
November 18, 2007, 07:33 PM
one of my rookie friends said he shot a deer with a .22LR (rimfire) with the stinger bullet and with one shot center mass it dropped. now if he would have missed maybe the deer would have ran who knows, a mile? good thing he didn't get caught. is this .223 ideal for 100 yards?

Bartkowski
November 18, 2007, 07:37 PM
No it is not ideal, but it will work.

Outlaws
November 18, 2007, 07:40 PM
6.8 SPC is becoming quite popular.

trigga
November 18, 2007, 07:44 PM
so a .223 is pretty much a .22lr on packed in a bigger cartridge and center fire. most deers i hunt and see are under 100 yards so i think i should be fine. do they make any 30 round mags for the ar10? i know they make 25 but i don't like the straight look unless it's a 20 round.

Outlaws
November 18, 2007, 07:47 PM
so a .223 is pretty much a .22lr on packed in a bigger cartridge and center fire.

The 223 is a 22 caliber bullet, but it is not the same bullet that is used in a 22LR.

trigga
November 18, 2007, 07:47 PM
6.8 SPC, nice i'll put more look into that.

4v50 Gary
November 18, 2007, 07:56 PM
My brother dropped a buck with a .223 fired from a Rem 700 Varminter. He used either a Barnes X or a Nosler Partition and it mushroomed out. The buck was on hill and it dropped him dead right there. Shot placement is everything.

Deer Hunter
November 18, 2007, 08:25 PM
The .223 will work if you do your part, which goes for every other caliber fielded these days as well. There is no magic bullet. If you want to hunt with a .223 and feel yourself comfortable with it, then by all means go ahead. Do not be persuaded into thinking you need the newest WSM to take down a deer. Under 100 yards, a soft-point .223 is plenty for deer.

salty
November 18, 2007, 08:35 PM
trigga - It appears you could benefit from some serious remedial work - I would first get a couple of current reloading manuals and study the ballistics of the various cartridges your are looling at and then hit the computer store to get a new keyboard with a cap key that works. A 223 is not in the same leayge as a 308 - sorry to burst your water balloon.

MudPuppy
November 18, 2007, 09:29 PM
I think a 22lr and .223 are both .224 in actual diameter--but regardless, a 223 is not simply a souped up, higher velocity version of a 22lr. The mass is about double and the velocity is more than doubled, iirc.

My brother took two last year out with my 223 ar, they went down quicker than the one i hit with a 7.62x39 (but I botched the shot...). But they were little goat sized hill country deer. :)

The Deer Hunter
November 18, 2007, 09:52 PM
do they make any 30 round mags for the ar10?

Most states have a magazine capacity possibly only for semi's but make sure...Although, I'm thinking if you can't drop a deer with 29 rounds then maybe you should brush up on your marksmanship. A .308 will drop a deer with one shot, I assure you.

rbernie
November 18, 2007, 10:06 PM
I have a couple of AR10s; they are heavy beasties when compared to an AR15. I think that an AR-15 in 7.62x39 or 6.8SPC would be just the ticket; suitable for hunting, and you can get legally blocked mags for both.

trigga
November 18, 2007, 10:11 PM
the 30 round is for range purposes, wouldn't mind taking it hunting. i called the dnr the other day referring to my glock 22 for deer hunting and mention 15 shots, they said it was fine. i've seen people using banana clips before.

Outlaws
November 18, 2007, 10:17 PM
the 30 round is for range purposes, wouldn't mind taking it hunting. i called the dnr the other day referring to my glock 22 for deer hunting and mention 15 shots, they said it was fine. i've seen people using banana clips before.

Something doesn't jive. What state are you in? ...and why on earth would you ask about hunting deer with a .40S&W? I think they misunderstood and were referring to using it as a sidearm for protection while deer hunting. The magazines you saw may or may not have been legal, or they might have been blocked to accept the legal limit.

trigga
November 18, 2007, 10:50 PM
i explained it to the warden, he said it was fine and he was aware that the glock 22 held 15 round. all it says in the regulation was the barrel had to be 5.5" or larger from muzzle to firing pin action closed, at least 18 years of age to use, no concealed weapons, and center fire of .22 or larger. so i called twice and got the same answer from two people so i'm pretty sure. all i had to do was buy a 1.52" longer barrel to make it legal. don't worry, i bought a 6". i carry it because my 30-06 sometimes jam randomly. (remington 7400) no complaints yet. now with that being said, i don't see why i can't use it as a primary or secondary, but yes it's only for back up.

jakeswensonmt
November 18, 2007, 11:01 PM
so a .223 is pretty much a .22lr on packed in a bigger cartridge and center fire.

Not really. They both use a .22 caliber barrel, that's about where the similarities end.

The .22lr is a 36 grain bullet traveling at maybe 1200 fps with about 120 ft/lb of energy, accurate to about 100 yards but not a lot more, and energy levels drop precipitously beyond 100 yards. It's good for hunting squirrel, but you might want something more for varmints raccoon sized or larger.

The .223 is a 55+ grain bullet traveling at maybe 3000+ fps, and 1200+ ft/lb of energy, on the order of 10 times that of the 22lr. The wound channel created by the 223 is disproportionately large, as the bullet tends to yaw (roll) and fragment upon impact. Civilian .223 bullets can also use hollow points, which increases wounding. It's trajectory is nearly flat out to 200 yards, and it's accurate well beyond that. A well-placed .223 will drop a man or a deer in a single shot.

Outlaws
November 18, 2007, 11:03 PM
What state are you in?

trigga
November 18, 2007, 11:07 PM
wisconsin, madison to be exact.

Outlaws
November 18, 2007, 11:13 PM
http://www.dnr.state.wi.us/org/land/wildlife/regs/Deer07regs2-17.pdf

It looks like you got correct information.

trigga
November 18, 2007, 11:28 PM
yes i have been researching way before i even got the glock. i like to be on top of things rather than find out the hard way. i've been hunting for a decade and i've always believed in the theory of the five shot limit but by calling them, they possibly can't be lying. if they were so worried they would at least state it in the regulation book so all can see. i don't see why a person would pick to carry a 10 shot mag if they were given the choice of 30 shot mags. you don't need it? that's like my mom telling me not to go hunting because there is already meat at the store. that's just me.

funfaler
November 18, 2007, 11:54 PM
If you are looking for "free" advice, and remember it is worth what you pay for it, I would consider a separate rifle for deer hunting, and get the AR platform that you want, because you want that platform.

Heck, for the price of an AR10, you can get an AR15 AND a Marlin 30.30 for deer. This is just one man's opinion, and I always like buying more rifles, if I can :D

.223, with good ammo and shot placement will make it happen if that is the route to go. I must admit to being biased against the AR in 308, in preference to the M1a or FAL.

Happy hunting.

Crunker1337
November 19, 2007, 12:07 AM
If you really want to go the AR-15 route, I don't think that it's sporting to use .223 against a deer.
Buy an upper in a caliber more suited for medium game hunting. For instance, 6.5mm Grendel could be perfect for you.

Deer Hunter
November 19, 2007, 12:11 AM
But it's sporting to use a bow and arrow, right?

If the .223 works for him, then he can go ahead and use it. These ranges arn't exactly long.

Crunker1337
November 19, 2007, 12:15 AM
I'm not saying it can't work, it just doesn't guarantee a humane kill as much as other cartridges that are more suited to hunting deer. And of course he can use it, I'm just throwing in my $.02.

Deer Hunter
November 19, 2007, 12:22 AM
I've seen deer be lost due to lousy 300 WM shots. I've also seen them dropped clean with the .223. For my two cents, I'll toss in the fact that if someone can't kill a deer with a .223, then I wouldn't necessarily trust him or her with a .338 RUM either.

No beef intended, just what I believe.

KBintheSLC
November 19, 2007, 02:28 PM
what i was curious was will the .223 drop the deer if the shot is placed right, will the .223 be strong enough?

Technically, you can drop a deer with a .22 LR with a well placed shot. Would it be my first choice?.. no. Neither would the likes of a .223. If it is for hunting large game, go with the AR-10.

trigga
November 19, 2007, 08:30 PM
is it possible to get say like a .223 bushmaster and then later change the upper receiver for a 6.8 or .308? are they interchange able? (my cousin who has and ar15 said he parted his gun together)

trigga
November 19, 2007, 08:34 PM
will the lower receiver be the same and the top interchangeable. wow bushmaster even has a .22lr conversion. this can turn out to be a multi purpose gun just like my remmy 870.

shuter
November 19, 2007, 08:50 PM
Do yourself a favor where the .308 "AR" is concerned:

Look at the DPMS, rather than the Armalite!

DPMS makes an outstanding 20 round magazine, and their "big bore" AR's are consistently terrific shooters.

They're also very compettitively priced.

For what it's worth, I would never hunt deer with a .22 centerfire of any kind. Not that it won't kill them, but you have to be VERY careful of bullet selection (something I didn't see mentioned above), and VERY careful of shot placement (I'd not try to bust a shoulder with one, which is sometimes necessary).

Bottom line is, there are simply too many far better choices . . . such as a DPMS .308 or .260!

Have fun.

Outlaws
November 19, 2007, 08:54 PM
is it possible to get say like a .223 bushmaster and then later change the upper receiver for a 6.8 or .308? are they interchange able? (my cousin who has and ar15 said he parted his gun together)

Not 308, that uses a different lower altogether.

Here is a list of possible calibers for a 223 AR15 conversion. (http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=306487)
Note that they are not all common, the 204 Ruger, 6.8 Rem SPC, and 9mm are the most common. I have a feeling the 450 Bushmaster (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sC0f5wvgGew) upper would be a nice 100 yard deer gun. ;)

trigga
November 19, 2007, 09:03 PM
is it just me or are the ar10's receiver's a bit longer than the regular? i was thinking about the .223 and then later converting it to a 6.8 or bigger. i really like the dpms 6.8. just like the factory look of the m4, nothing fancy. thanks outlaw

trigga
November 19, 2007, 09:07 PM
correct me if i'm wrong but half way down the link the calibers are being listed, this is the group that can be interchangable by just changing the upper receiver?

Outlaws
November 19, 2007, 09:13 PM
correct me if i'm wrong but half way down the link the calibers are being listed, this is the group that can be interchangable by just changing the upper receiver?

I don't know how it is formatted and why. It seems a bit confusing though. But its not a complete list from what I could tell.

Also, there is the .50 Beowulf.

is it just me or are the ar10's receiver's a bit longer than the regular?

Correct, I don't recall many interchangeable parts between the AR15 and AR10.

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