Anyone used Rifle Primers in a 44 Mag?


PDA






SlamFire1
November 20, 2007, 09:27 AM
I have a Marlin M1894 in 44 Mag.

I have been using H110 with standard pistol primers, I get 1750 fps with a 240 JHP. But I don't like the look of the primers, these pistol primers flow around the firing pin, obviously looking like they are going to pierce at any moment.

Rifle primers are thicker, and the Marlin has plenty of hammer energy.

Anyone used standard rifle primers in the 44 Mag? Do I have to ream the pocket of the cases to use them? What results did you have?

If you enjoyed reading about "Anyone used Rifle Primers in a 44 Mag?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
Walkalong
November 20, 2007, 09:31 AM
Won't work. They will stick out (http://www.kinneman.com/browseproducts/K-M-Primer-Pocket-Uniformer-Tool.HTML). ;)

The primer pockets for small rifle and small pistol are the same depth.

The primer pockets for large pistol and large rifle are different depths.

Suggested depth of primer pockets are 0.118" to 0.122" for small rifle/pistol primer pockets and 0.128" to 0.132" for large rifle primer pockets. Large pistol primer pockets are not the same as large rifle primer pockets!! They require a special tool. Large pistol pockets should have a depth of 0.118" to 0.122".

SlamFire1
November 20, 2007, 10:14 AM
Buggers! I guess if I ream the pocket to depth, I will reduce the web too much.

Grumble, grumble.

lil ski
November 20, 2007, 11:35 AM
Maybe try a different powder to back off the pressure. I like H110 man is it hard on your hand though.

ReloaderFred
November 20, 2007, 12:13 PM
+1 on what Walkalong said. They're not interchangable. And as you surmised, the web would become pretty thin if you deepened the pockets much.

You might give Lil' Gun a try. I've had some pretty good success with it for the carbines.

Hope this helps.

Fred

rcmodel
November 20, 2007, 12:32 PM
What brand of primers?

You might give CCI a try, as many folks seem to think they are generally harder then other brands.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

snuffy
November 20, 2007, 01:32 PM
Hmmmm, this got me thinking. Just how thick IS the web on a 44 mag? So out comes the caliper, and a couple 44 cases. One is an often fired WW, the other is a new,(never loaded), mag tech. The win case is thicker at .184, mag tech,(CBC), is .173. Now subtract the depth of the primer pocket on the CBC case,(.121), you have .052 left!

From the above dimensions the change would be .010- .014 deeper to accept a rifle primer. That would leave .038 between the bottom of the primer pocket and the bottom of the case on the inside. Would this weaken the web? Of course it would, but would it weaken it enough to be dangerous? Well I don't want to find out!

Lets get back to the original question. Primer appearance is a poor indicator of pressure. A better indicator is case extraction effort, and especially case head expansion. CHE has to be measured with an accurate micrometer capable of measuring to .0001, that tenths of a thousandths. Then it has to be compared to a factory loaded shell with a similar load fired in the same rifle.

The reason you're seeing a flatter primer than you might if it were fired in a revolver, is the longer barrel gives the power time to burn completely. And there's no cylinder gap. My experience with H-110 or WW-296 in revolvers is that a lot of it is expelled without burning. Try shooting into the wind sometime!:mad:

rcmodel
November 20, 2007, 01:48 PM
+1 on what Snuffy said. Looking at primers as a pressure indicator is a poor way to go about business.

obviously looking like they are going to pierce at any moment. There is also a big difference besides "looking like" and actually "doing it".

If you aren't getting any actual pierced primers, you don't have a problem.

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

Ranger J
November 20, 2007, 03:41 PM
How much H110 are you using? I shoot a lot of heavy loads in my Marlin, don't have my Lee manual handy right now to say how heavy, and have never experienced any failures or noticed anything strange about my spent primers. It is my favorite powder for making hunting loads for both my 1894 and my Ruger Deerfield. I prefer WW primers but lately have had to use anything I can get my hands on regular or magnum. Primers have almost disappeared off the shelves in our area.

RJ

SlamFire1
November 20, 2007, 05:12 PM
I had been conducting load development with H110. My loads are not out of published values. H110 and W296 produce excellent velocities and relatively excellent accuracy in my Marlin. (I am happy with 3" groups out of a lever gun at 100 yards)

And I know that primer signs are not reliable indications of much of pressures, or much of any thing. But I still would be happier with primers that do not show a lot of metal flow around the firing pin, or the hole.


M1894 Marlin 20 Ballard Barrel

240 Nosler JHP 24.0 grs H110 WLP Midway cases
23-Mar-05 T = 65 F
Ave Vel = 1710
Std Dev = 3
ES 9
Low 1705
High 1714
N = 5



240 Nosler JHP 24.5 grs H110 WLP Midway cases
23-Mar-05 T = 65 F
Ave Vel = 1745
Std Dev = 12
ES 45
Low 1723
High 1768
N = 10

Walkalong
November 20, 2007, 05:15 PM
I still would be happier with primers that do not show a lot of metal flow around the firing pin, or the hole.
That may be a tolerance problem inate to the gun and not a primer/pressure problem at all.

ArchAngelCD
November 20, 2007, 05:18 PM
Instead of using rifle primers why not use the primers you are supposed to use with H110/W296, Large Pistol Magnum Primers.

SlamFire1
November 20, 2007, 08:18 PM
Instead of using rifle primers why not use the primers you are supposed to use with H110/W296, Large Pistol Magnum Primers.

Well that is something new to me. Just thumbed through a 1991 Hodgdons manual, no mention of primers in the H110 reloading data. :confused:

Do magnum pistol primers have thicker cups?

Never used any as far as I can remember. Always used WLP, CCI, or Fed. Mostly WLP because they cost less.

Walkalong
November 20, 2007, 08:27 PM
WLP primers are supposed to be good for standard or magnum loads. I use them all the time. I have never used them with W296 when I used it. I used Federal 155 Mag primers. I do not know if the cups are any thicker or not, but they may be.

Mag primers are always recommended by Speer for H110 & W296 which are supposed to be the same powder. Speer recommends them with HS-6 & HS-7 as well.

ArchAngelCD
November 21, 2007, 01:46 AM
Hodgdon specifically states that Magnum primers are required with H110. I'm not sure if they are thicker than non-Magnum primers but they are hotter. That's the reason they are required with H110 and W296, it's a hard powder to ignite. It's in all the manuals I have. (3 Lee manuals and a Lyman manual)

Grumulkin
November 21, 2007, 09:44 AM
Children, children...

First of all, large rifle primers DO work in a 44 Mag. case because I've done it.

Secondly, ya'll out to try different primers on occasions and you might have some surprises.

My experiment with the 44 Rem. Mag. and large rifle magnum primers did not result in improved accuracy. On the other hand, contrary to the prevailing "wisdom" that magnum primers are needed with ball powders and other powders don't need them, I got my best accuracy in a 357 Herrett (not a large or magnum case) loaded with IMR 4227 by using CCI 250 large rifle magnum primers. In addition, I've used non magnum primers many times with ball powders and they work just fine.

For those wishing to try rifle primers in a 44 Rem. Mag. case with H110/Win. 296, the maximum load will be reduced by about 1.5 grains (at least in my handgun).

SlamFire1
November 21, 2007, 09:48 AM
For those wishing to try rifle primers in a 44 Rem. Mag. case with H110/Win. 296, the maximum load will be reduced by about 1.5 grains (at least in my handgun).

Thanks for the data.
.

ArchAngelCD
November 21, 2007, 07:06 PM
I didn't say Magnum primers are required for all Ball Powders, I said Magnum primers are required when using H110/W296.

I charge 15.7gr H110 for my .357 Magnum rounds under a 158gr FMJ/JSP bullet.
For use in my Marlin Carbine I'll charge 16.5gr H110.

A friend charges 24.0gr W296 under a 240gr JHP bullet for the .44 Magnum. He gets ~1500 fps from a 5" barrel.

Walkalong
November 21, 2007, 08:47 PM
Children, children...

First of all, large rifle primers DO work in a 44 Mag. case because I've done it.

Secondly, ya'll out to try different primers
We may be children, but at least we can spell "ought" :neener:

Ya'll be nice now, ya hear. ;)

Grumulkin
November 21, 2007, 08:59 PM
I didn't say Magnum primers are required for all Ball Powders, I said Magnum primers are required when using H110/W296.

Well, I've found that magnum primers aren't required when using H110/Win. 296.

zxcvbob
November 21, 2007, 09:02 PM
But you're using *rifle* primers, which are hotter than even magnum pistol primers.

I use small rifle primers in loads that call for magnum pistol primers (just because that's one less type of primer to stock, and I seldom load small pistol magnums)

Clark
November 21, 2007, 10:01 PM
SAAMI specifications on primers and primer pockets per "Sinclair International's Precision Reloading & Shooting Handbook" 10th edition 1999

......................Depth min max diameter min max
small rifle primer pocket .117 .123 .1730 .1745
small pistol primer pocket .117 .123 .1730 .1745
Large rifle primer pocket .125 .132 .2085 .2100
Large pistol primer pocket .117 .123 .2085 .2100

.......................Height min max Diameter min max
Small rifle primers .115 .125 .1745 .1765
small pistol primers .115 .125 .1745 .1765
large rifle primers .123 .133 .2105 .2130
large pistol primers .115 .125 .2100 .2120"

If the large pistol pocket is .117 to .123 deep and the large rifle primer is .123 to .133 deep, then they can just fit, stick out .016", be somewhere in between or be squished ahead of time.


I use the large rifle primers in 45acp when I am going to shoot them in a 98 Mauser.

IMHO:
But I would not use them in an 1894 if I did not have to.
A good reason for doing it is that the primers are piercing.
The 44 mag is a small case, and the pistol primer can get it going.
The extra primer power is not needed or wanted.
Get the extra power from extra powder.

ArchAngelCD
November 21, 2007, 11:04 PM
Well, I've found that magnum primers aren't required when using H110/Win. 296.
Grumulkin,
Hey, whatever gets you.... I see no big deal using Magnum primes since they cost no more than non-Magnum ones.

Wildfire
November 23, 2007, 01:12 AM
Primers, (Fit or not vary in PSI) The variation can be as much as 2000 psi depending on what is being switched. Componant switching of any metalic parts has been proven to be risky at best.
Maximum firing pin protrusion is .055" . If your firing pin is longer then this at full strike this may be a problem. This happens more often then you may think.
It's your gun...

Grumulkin
November 23, 2007, 05:35 AM
But you're using *rifle* primers, which are hotter than even magnum pistol primers.

No, I'm not using rifle primers. I have tried them though. I did not encounter any problem using them but since there was no accuracy advantage in my 44 Rem. Mag., I didn't keep using them.

Hey, whatever gets you.... I see no big deal using Magnum primes since they cost no more than non-Magnum ones.

I see no big deal using magnum primers either; I have tried all sorts of primers of various brands and types. The point I would like to make is that if you try something in the way of primers other than what is the usual, there will at times be significant accuracy benefits. Such experimentation has shown me that CCI 250 large rifle magnum primers work the best in a 357 Herrett loaded with IMR 4227 for instance; what armchair* reloader would have guessed that?

Some other qualifiers would be in order. When I go off the beaten path, I cautiously work up the loads. I'm also proficient in diagnosing high pressure signs after having reloaded thousands of rounds in over 25 different cartridges. I would not recommend that the inexperienced reloader go by anything other than published loads using the published components.

*Armchair meaning theorizing instead of actually trying something.

ArchAngelCD
November 25, 2007, 03:42 AM
I see no big deal using magnum primers either; I have tried all sorts of primers of various brands and types. The point I would like to make is that if you try something in the way of primers other than what is the usual, there will at times be significant accuracy benefits. Such experimentation has shown me that CCI 250 large rifle magnum primers work the best in a 357 Herrett loaded with IMR 4227 for instance; what armchair* reloader would have guessed that?

Some other qualifiers would be in order. When I go off the beaten path, I cautiously work up the loads. I'm also proficient in diagnosing high pressure signs after having reloaded thousands of rounds in over 25 different cartridges. I would not recommend that the inexperienced reloader go by anything other than published loads using the published components.

*Armchair meaning theorizing instead of actually trying something.
Sorry pal but when it comes to reloading I don't guess about anything so you can armchair that!

You say in your post you don't recommend using anything other than published components yet when I said Published Data states you should use a Magnum primer when using H110/W296 you argued the point. That's both confusing and a contradiction.

Since you decided to start treating me poorly, decided to be condescending and since you know everything, IMO the conversation between you and I is now over. Good luck with all your different calibers and be safe.

If you enjoyed reading about "Anyone used Rifle Primers in a 44 Mag?" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!