Please Help!!


July 18, 2003, 09:28 PM
A friend and I were having a discussion last night and somehow the topic turned to guns. I know better, because my friend is not only anti-gun, he's incredibly stubborn. One of the things he said last night was that "the vast majority of gun owners use them to kill or hurt other people." Can you guys point me in the direction of any type of studies or info that I can show him? Thanks a lot!!

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Old Fuff
July 18, 2003, 09:45 PM
According to the United Nations (I'm pretty sure you're friend trusts them) there are some 250 million legally-owned guns in the United States. I'll send you the full article later. Now check the Justice Department's numbers for firearms-related murders, and after that you can run this guy into the ground.

Old Fuff
July 18, 2003, 09:54 PM
U.N. - Nearly 1 Gun for Every American

UNITED NATIONS (AP) - The United States has by far the largest number of publicly owned firearms in the world and is approaching the point where there is one gun for every American, according to the Small Arms Survey 2003 released Tuesday.

But in surprise findings, the survey found that Europeans are more heavily armed than commonly believed while there are far fewer small arms in Afghanistan and sub-Saharan Africa than previously estimated. According to the independent survey, the crackdown on terrorism after Sept. 11, 2001, attacks on the United States ``had little effect on the size of the global stockpile of 639 million known small arms.''

The survey said its estimate of the global value of small arms production remains unchanged at about $7.4 billion - with the United States and Russia accounting for more than 70 percent of production. The estimate of the legal small arms trade - $4 billion a year - also remains the same, with the European Union dominating the international export market.

America is now estimated to have between 238 million and 276 million firearms, compared with some 250 million legally owned guns, or 84 for every 100 people recorded in a July 2001 survey.

``By any measure the United States is the most armed country in the world,'' it said. ``With roughly 83 to 96 guns per 100 people, the United States is approaching a statistical level of one gun per person.''

The country with the second-highest gun ownership is Yemen, with between 33 and 50 firearms per 100 people, followed by Finland with 39 per 100, the new survey said.

``Contrary to the common assumption that Europeans are virtually unarmed, the 15 countries of the European Union have an estimated 84 million firearms. Of that 67 million (80 percent) are in civilian hands,'' the survey said. With a total population of 375 million people, this amounts to 17.4 guns for every 100 people.

The survey of global small arms was released on the second day of a weeklong U.N. meeting reviewing progress toward implementing a U.N. program adopted two years ago to combat small arms trafficking. More than 30 researchers contributed to the project, which is coordinated at the Graduate Institute of International Studies in Geneva and financed by a dozen Western governments.

Peter Batchelor, the survey's project director, said at a news conference that there are still ``disappointingly low levels of transparency'' about the global arms trade, with only about 20 countries providing annual export reports. Sixty countries are known to be engaged in the legal trade.

``Based on our research, it's clear that the value and the volume of the legal international trade has appeared to decline since the 1990s. This has been led by a dramatic fall in the trade of military weapons, and also certain categories of civilian firearms,'' he said.

Batchelor said the illicit trade is believed to be worth about $1 billion, or 20 percent of the legal trade.

While small-scale smuggling across borders continues, ``the large-scale deals that seemed to be very prominent in the last decade seem to have declined somewhat,'' he said.

New research is leading to an increasingly balanced, though still incomplete, picture of the distribution of small arms and light weapons, the survey said.

Although it is has been widely reported that Afghanistan has at least 10 million small arms, the survey said, ``careful analysis places the total between 500,000 and 1.5 million weapons.''

It also said there probably are no more than 30 million firearms among civilians, insurgents and governments of the 44 countries of sub-Saharan Africa.

``This is enough guns to perpetuate fighting in many countries and raise the danger of criminal violence in many others, but it is not enough to render the situation totally beyond hope,'' the survey said.

07/08/03 22:01

© Copyright The Associated Press. All rights reserved. The information contained In this news report may not be published, broadcast or otherwise distributed without the prior written authority of The Associated Press.

Standing Wolf
July 18, 2003, 09:55 PM
I'd say you need a higher class of friends.

July 18, 2003, 09:55 PM
One of the things he said last night was that "the vast majority of gun owners use them to kill or hurt other people." Holy sh*t .... he IS biased.!!:rolleyes:

Let's rephrase for him ........ "the vast majority of legal gun owners are found to rarely hurt or kill people.."

His statement is a typical ''anti'' sweeping statement ... backed up my nothing ...... other than paranoia and misplaced emotion.:barf:

July 18, 2003, 09:56 PM
Pick up a copy of More Guns, Less Crime and give your "friend" some facts.

July 18, 2003, 10:04 PM
I'd say you need a higher class of friends.

I'd say you're right, but I'd rather try to educate the ingorant than let them continue spreading lies due to the fact that they don't know better.

If I can show this guy how wrong he is, he might change his mind and opinion. Wouldn't that be a better outcome for everyone?

I'm really having a hard time finding stuff here on the comp to back up what I know to be true. I'm not too computer literate, so if someone could continue to post some stuff, or links to stuff, that would be great! Thanks again!

Guy B. Meredith
July 19, 2003, 01:24 AM

It is not your statement, not up to you to prove or disprove it. It is his assertion and his responsibility to prove it. Don't sweat it. It is his turn to sweat. If he can't come up with valid support, there is no argument for you to counter.

Guy B. Meredith

July 19, 2003, 03:43 AM
My self I just dont talk to azehoes like that...

Old Fuff
July 19, 2003, 03:24 PM

I found you statistics from the United Nations concerning the total (estimated) number of guns in various countries including the United States.

Statistics on crime in the United States are kept by the Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) and can be found on their web site at:
Look for "Uniform Crime Reports."

In particular look at:

These are two examples:

Murder Victims1
by Weapon, 1997-2001
Weapon 1997 1998 1999 2000 2001

Total 15,837 14,276 13,011 13,230 13,752
Total firearms: 10,729 9,257 8,480 8,661 8,719
Handguns 8,441 7,430 6,658 6,778 6,790
Rifles 638 548 400 411 389
Shotguns 643 633 531 485 497
Other guns 35 16 92 53 58
Firearms, type not stated 972 630 799 934 985
Knives or cutting
instruments 2,055 1,899 1,712 1,782 1,796
Blunt objects (clubs,
hammers, etc.) 724 755 756 617 661
Personal weapons (hands,
fists, feet, etc.)2 1,010 964 885 927 925
Poison 6 6 11 8 10
Explosives 8 10 0 9 4
Fire 140 132 133 134 104
Narcotics 37 35 26 20 34
Drowning 34 28 28 15 23
Strangulation 224 213 190 166 152
Asphyxiation 88 101 106 92 112
Other weapons or
weapons not stated 782 876 684 799 1,212

1 The murder and nonnegligent homicides that occurred as a result of the events of
September 11, 2001, were not included in any murder tables (Tables 2.3-2.15).
See special report, Section V.
2 Pushed is included in personal weapons.


Table 2.17
Justifiable Homicide
by Weapon, Private Citizen,1 1997-2001
Year Total Total fire- arms Hand- guns Rifles Shot- guns Fire- arms, type not stated Knives or cutting instru- ments Other danger- ous weapons Personal weapons

1997 280 238 197 16 14 11 28 6 8
1998 196 170 150 6 14 0 17 5 4
1999 192 158 137 5 10 6 18 9 7
2000 164 138 123 4 7 4 15 8 3
2001 215 176 136 10 13 17 25 6 8

1 The killing of a felon, during the commission of a felony, by a private citizen.


Between 1997 to 2001 there were 10,729 murders comitted with firearms. (including justifiable homicides). The U.N. says there are at least 137 million privately own guns in the United States, and that's a low number.

Also notice that since 1997 the number of gun related crimes has been going down, while the total number of guns has been going up.

Double Maduro
July 19, 2003, 03:57 PM
1 gun for every citizen.

Some of you aren't doing your part. Like about 25 of you!


July 23, 2003, 08:03 PM
Just wanted to say thanks for all the help. I printed out some things for the guy, and he basically, without looking at them, told me he knew he was talking out of his ???, and knew better. He just doesn't like guns, and I told him that if he didn't like guns, that was one thing, but not to just make things up that I could easily disprove. He said he was sorry, and that was the end of it. I consider it a win, because at least he won't make up things anymore hoping that nobody will call him on it.


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