[WonderNine]

Here it is, welcome to the new police state:

http://www.prisonplanet.com/doglg.rm

You need REAL MEDIA PLAYER to view this video.

[WonderNine]

bttt

[Matt G]

Looks like a good shoot, to me. What's the beef? Is the cop supposed to get bitten?

[WonderNine]

Yes, that's part of being a public servant. You may actually have to sustain some unpleasantries at some time, just as in any other profession, take construction for example. I spit on your post! Don't you think that any other workers take one for the team sometimes? Get bitten my ***, those cops are in full tactical gear and the shooting was completely unnecessary. A COWARD pulled the trigger on that little dog. What was he going to do, nibble his bum? Whatever happened to the old, "Hey boys, I heard you were involved in a robbery, please hand those guns over and whatever identifaction you may have."

And the stop was unlawful anyways. I guess I'm just old fashioned and not used to the new POLICE STATE of the past twenty years even though I'm only twenty three.

The man was pulled over by what (5?) state troopers? And they shoot his dog. Bunch of pillow biting cops who are protected for all of their actions by tyrannical laws.

[Matt G]

A. I know nothing whatever about the circumstances behind that felony stop, other than what was mentioned by one of the officers about their having information that the car may have been involved in some kind of felony. If the officers believed that, they made the stop in good faith. Nothing leads me to believe that it was anything other than a good stop. That said, I have almost NO info on it.

B. Taking all things into account, the shoot took place in a rural area, with a wide shoulder behind the dog. The firearm was pointed at a downward angle, away from the other officers, the suspects, and the street. The shot thus did not endanger anyone but the dog. The officer packpeddled for some distance before shooting.

C. From what I can see, the officer's just wearing a standard midnight blue street uniform and duty belt. I certainly don't see anything resembling "full tactical gear." That's not another deputy; that's likely a municipal police officer who arrived to backup the officer on the felony stop.

D. Why should the officer, a human being, be required to take a bite from a dog, before he can stop the animal from attacking him? While the animal may have had the noblist of intentions in protecting his master from what he perceived to be a threat, the animal was in fact attacking the officer. Ever seen what a 30 lb dog can do to a hamstring or forearm used to fend it off? I have, recently. How many ounces of flesh fit in a 2.5" dog-sized chomp? At any rate, that's how much got chewed off the jogger that attacked in our city, recently.

E. That said, would shooting the animal be my first choice? Perhaps not. As an officer, the main reason I carry an expandable baton (other than for breaking windows) is for dogs, so that I don't have to shoot someone's dog on their front porch when I arrive to answer an alarm call, or the like. When I see the dog, I'll usually get my ASP out ahead of time, weak-handed. The last time I snapped out my baton while approaching a house with three dogs, however, they ran to attack me, anyway. Changing my plan, I drew my pistol. Strangely, the same dogs (pit mixes) that didn't respect a 26" steel rod stopped and retreated at the sight of my Kimber. I have no idea why. But one thing is for sure: I am NOT going to get bitten, if I can help it. And I wouldn't ask the officer to, either. Suppose he kicked the dog to the side, and it attacked one of the contact officers who was dealing with the suspects, who had NOT been frisked yet? Would that have been an escalation to the problems? Yes, I think it would, with the dog now in a position where the only answer would be to put hands on it, taking full attention off of the three suspects.

Remember, this was a felony stop. Full concentration is on the 3 felony suspects.

Coward? No way for me to tell. Pragmatist? Most likely.

[RoyRapoport]

News reports indicated -- and the video confirms to me -- that the people were asking to close the doors of the car so the dogs would not leave the car. The officers declined for some reason, even though there were enough of them to both maintain control over the suspects and close the doors.

Personally -- and maybe it's just because I'm a dog person and my girlfriend owns the gentlest dogs alive, including a 150lb lab/dane mix that would likely get shot in this sort if situation -- I'd probably say the right thing to do is to either use non-lethal means on the dog or wait at least to figure out what its intentions are.

I sincerely hope that PD's pockets will get slightly emptier due to this f***up.

[EJ]

First-- I agree -- You don't have to get bit and you should concentrate on the occupants and hence may have to get (shoot) the dog to avoid the distraction factor--
I wasn't there I don't know what I would have done -- The video isn't clear enough for me to make a fair determination--

But--
My undersatanding of the stop was a suspicous // possible felony--
Supposedly the driver left his wallet on the roof and officers observed USC flying about / and from the vehicle--

That's what I got off the media--Could be wrong--

[KMKeller]

From all reports the dog was very friendly and it's obvious from the video that he's wagging it's tail. The stupid little mutt just saw more people to pet it and was trying to make a new friend. The officer decided that he was in mortal danger from a dog that most of us would've reached down to pet and after blowing the dog's head off puts the muzzle of his weapon on the mother and son.

Was the dog growling or snarling and baring it's teeth? Was the animal showing any signs of aggression? No reports on that even from the LEO community out there. If not, then virtually every dog you or I or anyone else ever encounters should be shot as they come trotting up. It's a dog's nature. Shouldn't he have tried to use pepper spray on the dog first? He was backpeddling... if a dog wants to play and you move away from it, what does it do? THe officer was screaming "get back, get back" at the dog. How about sit or heel? The officer screwed up, plain and simple. Sounds like the officer has a fear of dogs and panicked when fido came trotting up for a belly scratching.

Ever been attacked by a dog? They don't come trotting up and chomp you. They usually come full bore, growling with teeth barred. It's a bluff posture that is inherent in canine attacks. None of these videos show anything like that. It looks to me like the dog though the officer was actually trying to play with it. If it was so vicious, why were all the other officers standing around and completely ignoring it? If it were growling, I guarantee there would've been a lot more heads looking in it's direction. Nobody looks around until the officer panics and starts screaming at the dog.

[Hkmp5sd]

I don't think we can really blame the officers for this one. They thought they were stopping armed robbers and followed their felony carstop procedures. Looking at the tape and the number of times they had to repeat orders to the three individuals, I think they could have been a lot rougher throughout the whole deal.

The officer that shot the dog may not have heard them wanting to close doors or anything else being said. He's covering them with a shotgun until they are secure and a dog pops up in front of him that is running straight at him.

This was an unfortunate incident, but I believe the LEO's acted properly given the information they had at the time.

[Phyphor]

I think that's a load of crap. I think the LEO's over reacted.
They could have pepper-sprayed the animal or hit it with their sticks, if the dog would have charged after that, then deadly force would be warranted,

[Matt G]

Let me get this straight.

First, if a dog attacks, my response is to holler "sit" or "heel."

I'm only supposed to shoot the dog if it's a mortal threat; in other words, a dog gets the same rights as a human being.

I'm supposed to try to use pepper spray, which has repeatedly been shown to be at best only intermittantly effective on dogs, to stop the animal when attacked.

That dog was obvious wagging its tail when it quickly approached the officer? Really? Because I had the thing blown up to full-screen on a 19" monitor when I watched the actual shoot on 3 occasions, and I don't see that. Hunh.

Ever been attacked by a dog? Yes, actually. I have. And I've been amazed, time and again, at how quickly a dog can and often will change its attitude. 5 seconds before I drew my pistol at the hounds I mentioned in my earlier post, 2 of the dogs were wagging their tails.

Folks, make no mistake: I'm really sorry the dog died; I really am. I think it's tragic.

But I don't think the criteria are there to judge the officer's actions as wrong.

[KMKeller]

The officer made no effort to follow a standard escalation of force. That's wrong. A dog moving towards you is not grounds for killing the dog, period.

This is not the only video of the affair. There is another that shows the dog wagging it's tail.

[QKRTHNU]

That dog looked pretty small to me. And certainly didn't look like a threat. :rolleyes:

Officer was just a sissy. Why didn't he just a kick/knee and say "No!". Or maybe hit the dog with his shotgun at worst. The dog wasn't doing anything, just running around. I'd be pissed as hell if it was my dog.

I hope he gets fired.

It also looked like the one officer let the dog out. He looked into the car and said something like "I've got a dog in here." Then the dog comes out. Looks to me like that officer didn't think it was a big deal to let the dog out.

[cobb]

I am no LEO, and do not know what their proceedure is to follow in a case like this, but I sure wouldn't want to be in the LEO's shoes that shot the dog. If and when a jury hears and sees this tape, those people will probably retire on income from that department/city/county/state. I am condeming no one, but that tape and it's audio sure makes the LEO look like he screwed up.

[Lone_Gunman]

I think it is a huge over-reaction on the part of the police.

I hope the family sues the hell out of them.

The family members are lucky they didnt get shot by these fools.

[answerguy]

I don't think we can really blame the officers for this one. They thought they were stopping armed robbers and followed their felony carstop procedures. Looking at the tape and the number of times they had to repeat orders to the three individuals, I think they could have been a lot rougher throughout the whole deal.

Sure the police had to keep repeating orders at the occupants of the car, they had never been through anything like this before. They must have been in a daze as they were ordered out of their car and told to lie face down in the dirt. A little bit of reality entered their system as they realized that their dog might escape the safety of the car through the open door. I'm sure the only thing they thought could happen is that the dog could get out into traffic. And then to lie there helplessly and watch their family pet get executed, I can only begin to imagine the horror.

[Braz]

gutless and cowardly

[cratz2]

First, if a dog attacks, my response is to holler "sit" or "heel."

No, if the dog is 'attacking' then your response is to put him down. But... if I may be so bold, you're missing the point - several mistakes were made prior to the shooting of the dog. As a public servant, it is your #1 priority to protect the public. It is not your job to not go into an unknown situation literally guns a blazin' to investigate a possible felony situation.

By all counts, there is some sort of public employee right next to the door. On the Today Show, the kid said there was a person right next to the door where he got out of and he was asking him specifically to close the door which he chose not to do which was his decision to make.

So, a guy leaves his wallet on the roof of a car and money gets blown around/left behind. Someone makes a call and a cop decides to remove everyone from the car, hands in the air, down on the ground. They had guns drawn on them and the only crime that could be reasonably pinned on them at the time was littering. Don't ask any questions, just 'OUT', 'DOWN', 'BANG'.

The officer that asked the driver to get out of the car was wrong in doing that. The LEO that did not shut the door of the car was wrong in doing that. And the family will be should and will be compensated for making those decisions.

[Mover]

I can't say I blame the cop for shooting. Looks to me like the " little dog " is a 40 or 50 lb. Pit Bull. Considering the reputation these dogs have for being vicious and unpredictable, wagging its tail or not the dog does not get between me and my fellow officers.

[Tamara]

I'm wondering when "common sense" stopped being a job requirement for police work.

Not one officer on the scene went "Station wagon + luggage + out-of-state plates + holiday season + two smallish dogs + June + Ward + The Beav = Holy crap, we just pulled over the Cleavers by mistake! Ma'am, sir, I'm terribly sorry for the inconvenience!" Instead, it seems that everybody present was too busy singing the theme song from COPS! to themselves...

[Sttirp]

Sure the police had to keep repeating orders at the occupants of the car, they had never been through anything like this before. They must have been in a daze as they were ordered out of their car and told to lie face down in the dirt.

[Sttirp]

The Officers over reacted on this one....i usually try to give LEO the benefit of the doubt, ...those involved should be reprimanded....the City, County, and State should make amends...the ones shooting the dog, should never be allowed to carry a firearm again..... supposed that dog had been a small child,
though it wasn't...what would the officer had done then...it appeared to me, that the dog just wanted to be friendly...

[KMKeller]

Mover, the dog was a bulldog/boxer mix and would seem to be a bit smaller, towards the 25 pound range. It was a small dog, not a medium dog.

[ojibweindian]

Tamara

Haven't you heard? Common sense is an unfortunate victim of collateral damage in the WOD and WOT.

[Fair 'n Square]

Thanks for posting the video. It just confirms a few things. Righteous stop or not, the cops clearly knew there were dogs in the car. They didn't bother to contain the dogs in the car. And when the dog got out (and what dog will stay in an open car when it's owners get out?), the only thing to do is shoot the poor dog.
I was angry about this before. Seeing the video makes me feel even worse for this family. No, this can't be covered up with "us'n did ever'thing right. To bad, folks, we're sorry (tee-hee). Here's a free hamburger and goodbye."

[wingman]

No need for shooting the dog from the tape I seen, dog was wagging tail, not
a threat. Like the rest of the world police in general seem to have lost common sense.


I think the state/city will pay for this one,
sorry taxpayer.

[Master Blaster]

Some of you may remember this from the firing line:

Here is the story of my dog attack, and I was carring my G-26 that day, so I could have drawn and fired, which is what a police officer would surely have done given the responses here.

Attacked by a Rotweiler on 12/30
Hi All, I hope you had a good holiday break.

ON Sunday I and my 4 year old sheltie were taking a nice walk in my neighborhood. We know all of the dogs on the route we usually take, and some bark greetings as we pass.
There is one house about half way around our usual route that has two dogs. The first is a norwegian elk hound. The second is a two year old female rottweiler.

As we were passing by on the opposite side of the street the two were out barking in the fenced in yard at their house. The Rottie usaully stands to the rear and lets the elkhound bark, Sunday was no different.

As we walk by I notice a movement out of the corner of my eye. The rotweiler had climbed up on top of a wood pile that is against the fence, and she lept over it and landed on the ground ( 4 foot high fence only). She then charged at Lacey and I full tilt.

It was in slo mo just like in the movies. the huge rottie charging at us full speed, she had about 35 yards to close to Lacey and I.
Lacey weights about 25 lbs and is a midsize sheltie (shetland sheepdog, some say minnie collie).
I do not know the rottie like I know some of the dogs in the neighborhood, and I became alarmed enought to grasp the butt of my G26 I prepared to draw and fire because I did not think we could outrun the rottie and there was no where to run to.

This was 2:00 pm Sunday afternoon.

I really did not want to shoot the dog but If you have ever been charged by a large rotweiller snarling and barking you will recognize that this is a fearsome sight. this dog was charging us and she meant to eat us for lunch.

So before I finnish the story what would you do in my place?
This is not a trick story or question and though I have said hello to the dogs owners I do not know them, or the dog.

As I was in the situation I felt it was a damned If I do damned if I dont scenario.

What would you have done?

The Conclusion:

Ok I guess I've kept you all in suspense long enough.

like I said I do not know the dog or the owners well but I have said hello in passing. Like me these folks have small children. While its impossible to predict the behavoir of even the friendly family dog when the dog is defending their territory I had the feeling I could control the situation without firing. I kept my hand on the glock just in case I was wrong.

The dog charged and I stood still and yelled NO NO bad dog.
This confused the rottie and she slowed down. At this point I realized she was after my dog. Lacey my sheltie, is aggressive towards other dogs when challenged. The rottie rushed up to us and Lacey lunged for her and bit the rottie on the side of the face. I was then caught in a circle dance between Lacey and the rottweiler, Lacey was doing the biting and then dodging out of the way.

I was yelling for the owner who I guess heard what was happening and came out to retreive his dog.

I really wanted to shoot the dogs owner but my life was not in any danger. It turned out that the rottweiler was sparing with Lacey the same way she does with the elkhound (the other dog these folks own) Neither Lacey or I were harmed, Lacey did have a bunch of Black fur stuck in her front teeth .

The owner, after I got done yelling at him, and I pointed out to him that this dog could kill a 6 year old on a bike and it would be his fault for not controlling his dog, promised to remove the woodpile his dog used as a springboard from beside the fence.
Lacey and I went by the next day and he had removed it!!!

I did not draw, and the owner of the dog was unaware that I was carrying. Had the dog really attacked me or Lacey I may have been forced to shoot it, but fortunately this did not happen.

Thanks for all of your responses.




__________________
Master Blaster, No relation to the remington kiln cleaning system
Beyond thunderdome, there is the Master (Brains) then there is the Blaster (Weapon)

[Baron Holbach]

What about the judgement of the cell phone caller? He or she reportedly believed there had been a robbery after seeing money flying from off the top of the car. Subsequently, 911 was called and the dispatcher reported a possible felony.

[Matt G]

Critique the reason for the felony stop? Okay.

Critique the dog being let out? Okay.

Now. Put that aside. Let's even assume that the stop was bad, and the cops did everything wrong on scene. Fine.

Now. Is it the opinion of all the critics here that an officer must accept being bitten by even a 25 lb dog? Just clarifying, here.

Does a dog get as much respect, regarding use of force, as a human being?

And, before anyone says that a 25 lb dog (looks closer to 30+ to me, but no matter) cannot kill a grown man, has anyone here ever suffered a major infection from a small animal bite? I have, and a 4 lb cat nearly cost me my left index finger, once. Consider the myriad of diseases that a dog may carry. Must the officer suffer being bitten, because the animal cannot at that moment rip out his throat?

This is a worthwhile question to ask, friends: stipulating that the dog was coming at the officer with intent to attack, under what circumstances would the officer have been justified in shooting it? Keeping in mind that he is occupied at that moment with a long gun that he cannot put down.

[Mover]

KMKeller, My beagle dog is in the 25 lb. range, that one is somewhat larger. I'm sure that in the few seconds the unfortunate incident took place, that the cop was able to tell the difference between a bull/boxer mix and a pit bull.

[2nd Amendment]

Ever been attacked by a relatively small dog? A good kick to the head ends the situation pretty quickly. A good punch to the face will stop a pitbull, for pete sake. Unless the animal is trained to attack virtually any dog attack can be short circuited with little or no damage to anyone. What makes a dog attack turn ugly is not the skill or power of the animal but generally the reaction of the individual. Panic, pulling away after being bitten, reacting with blind fear.

Unless you're going up against a trained animal or more than one, have reason to suspect the animal is sick or have children to defend I can't see any legitimate reason to use lethal force on a dog. Very few warrant it. They are not killing machines, even when thoroughly pissed off.

[Tamara]

It's the fact that Johnny Law went right to the shotgun here that bugs me.

My landlord's 30-lb. cockapoo barks more ferociously than that at the UPS man every day and has never even been kicked. (Of course, the UPS man doesn't carry a 'tactical' shotgun, so this may be a moot point.)

No "down!", no "no!", no kick, no OC, just *bang!*.

Besides, if Officer Law did not already have strong suspicions that this stop was a snafu from the get-go based on the fact that most armed robbery teams don't resemble the Griswolds so strongly, then I'm going to go so far as to suggest that he's ot-nay oo-tay ight-bray, if you know what I mean. Realizing this probably would have modified his actions by that point, making him less, not more, likely to use lethal force, but apparently he was still certain he was dealing with Bonnie & Clyde...

[Sttirp]

stipulating that the dog was coming at the officer with intent to attack, under what circumstances

Under the circumstances, we do not really know what we would do, we were not there.... although the dog to me did not appear to be attacking the officer.

Even at best the officer still could have used pepper spray.... I would imagine the officer wishes he had reacted differently...

Sttirp

[riverdog]

Seems to me the only one who did the right thing was the shooter. The The 911 caller exaggerated, the operator accepted the story at face value with no cooroberation, dispatchers took a BOLO and turned it into a felony stop and then a THP oficer left the damn door open knowing there were dogs inside the car. Along comes tail end Charlie who is forced to wack the dog. That was a good shoot, everything else was F'd up royally.

[KMKeller]

The dog wasn't trying to bite him. The dog hadn't tried to do anything, that's obvious from both tapes and the point as far as I'm concerned. You can't just blow away a dog for something you think it might do. Unless of course Officer Fife, er Hall is precognitive. But we know that isn't the case because if he was, he would have known this to be a bad stop. Every other officer that the dog trotted by was disinterested and paid the dog no heed. The State Trooper that was within a couple of feet when it exited the car wasn't bothered in the least. Officer Hall started backpeddling from the dog, which most dogs will construe as playtime.

My son has a 10 month old Pointer/Rotty mix. She's about 70 lbs and the most playful mutt on the planet. I've had to tell my six year old on a dozen different occassions that you don't run from a dog, because if it's in play mode, then it understands that you want to run and play chase; and if it's angry, then you just committed a fatal mistake. Both behaviors are part and parcel of a pack mentality. Any body who's spent any time around dogs knows that if you don't want a dog to chase, don't run.

A recent incident with my son and a neighbors dog had me putting my hand on the butt of concealed handgun. The dog lunged at from the owners leash and while moving my hand to my pistol, I was moving my foot to the dog's jaw. Foot intercepts jaw, dog yelps, owner apologizes, hand goes in pocket. Dog was an 85 pound Husky mix.

How much you wanna bet that Officer Fife, er Hall has a morbid fear of dogs? Caniphobe or some such?

[Felonious Monk]

So many good points made here.
Tamara, I'm right on the same page with you.

My initial emotional reaction aside, I think Roscoe and Enos caught themselves an international terrorist group masquerading undercover as the Cleavers, and the dog was a HIGHLY trained Rhodesian attack dog masquerading as a family pet. The tail wagging was meant to make the LEO's drop their defenses, so he could go for the kill. :scrutiny: :rolleyes:

You guys trying to make this out as a justified shooting:
I can understand not wanting to add fuel to the fire of the "Us vs. Them" mentality that is becoming rampant. However, this whole incident was spiraling FAR out of control long before the shooting, which capped the whole thing as farcical and tragic.

FWIW, as I listened to the local drive-time talk radio this morning, more than one local good-ole boy mentioned the necessity for them to have to shoot him too, had they shot his dog.
(Maybe just a commentary on where I live, I dunno.)

While that should never be the case, I do hope they sue the pants off of the officer, and he never works in any job where he carries a lethal weapon again. :fire:

Matt G: Now. Is it the opinion of all the critics here that an officer must accept being bitten by even a 25 lb dog? Just clarifying, here. That's not the issue. You make it sound ridiculous. This officer was supposedly a trained LEO, holding a shotgun and Lord knows WHAT else. Can you say "Force continuum"? Can you say "buttstroke"? :banghead:

[KMKeller]

What Felonious Monk said...

[Matt G]

Stirrp, what's the rate of efficacy of pepper spray on dogs?

How fast can you deploy it when holding a shotgun that must not be put down?

What direction was the wind blowing?

______________________

Tamara, the officer was responding to a call of a felony. As the non-contact officer, he correctly armed himself with a shotgun, and stood back of the primary officers. I've no doubt that his patrol vehicle was several car-lengths back, but there is no way for him to have made a threat assessment prior to moving up, at which time the shotgun was already in his arms. Now he's a one-handed officer, because very few departments seem to see fit to put slings on their shotguns! ( :banghead: ) Please do me a favor and step back for a second, friends. Consider what you know now, after having sat in your chair and watched the video two or three times, vs what could be seen then, in the dark, with flashing lights, and a little adrenaline (which is, BTW, a good thing to have in your system-- it keeps you alive.). Would it be a good idea to throw your hands in the air and say "Golly, I guys we can just let these people go and head back to the Duncan Donuts", just because the "suspects" that got out of the car didn't look threatening? I don't see any guns pointed at the family members, specifically.

Folks, I'll agree that most of the time, policing's a pretty easy job. No doubt. There are times, though, when the safest way for everyone (including Ward and June and the Beav) is to complete your felony stops By The Book, because that leaves NO QUESTION. That means that you remain in control of your "Area Of Responsibility" until the scene is cleared. Why didn't the other officers react? Well, for one thing, they had their own AORs to cover. Remember that Team thing?

Do I wish the officer had just kicked the dog in the head? Sure I do. But I wasn't there, and neither were y'all.

[KMKeller]

I can't say I blame the cop for shooting. Looks to me like the " little dog " is a 40 or 50 lb. Pit Bull
No way in heck is that dog 40 or 50 pounds.


My beagle dog is in the 25 lb. range, that one is somewhat larger.
Look at the videos again, the dog is about the same size as a beagle.

I'm sure that in the few seconds the unfortunate incident took place, that the cop was able to tell the difference between a bull/boxer mix and a pit bull.
God I hope so. You'll never see a more dissimilar comparison between canine facial structures. I can tell the difference at a glance, can't you?
Boxer (http://www.akc.org/breeds/recbreeds/boxer.cfm) Bulldog (http://www.akc.org/breeds/recbreeds/bulld.cfm) Pit Bull (http://www.akc.org/breeds/recbreeds/bullter.cfm)

[Sttirp]

Under the circumstances, we do not really know what we would do, we were not there.... although the dog to me did not appear to be attacking the officer.

Pepper spray or not....a swift kick to the head, if the dog got aggressive would prob have stopped the dog, or even just talking to the animal. The Officer shot without thinking..

And again.....most of the responses here this morning are arm chair responses...WE WERE NOT THERE

[F4GIB]

I knew it was coming.
The LEO's answer to everything.
Here it is folks: "But I wasn't there, and neither were y'all."

In this case, though we can ALL watch the videotape. We can ALL see the relaxed body language of the THP officers as the one strolls up to the car and spots the dogs (who were totally NON-violent for almost 3 minutes while the stop went down). Officer Hall saw that too. And we can ALL see that the dog isn't 40 pounds, ignores the closer officer he runs past, and is exhibiting non-threatening body language. Officer Hall could have seen that too.

We can see, we can hear, we can ALL observe what occured. And we can ALL critique his bad judgement.

[Sttirp]

this was a very sensitive situation. I do a lot of walking in my neighborhood, 3- 5 miles every day. A lot of dogs bark at me, some even come after me, mostly only wanting to sniff..:):) me

Still the LEO in this situation overreacted...as a citizen I would have been very dazed and confused if it had happened to me, in this same situation...

Btw, I still support Law Enforcement..... they are on our side

and even the one guilty here, would prob have reacted differently had he thought about it, though in situation like this, you don't have time to think about what you would do...

[Mover]

KMKeller, I impressed how much you are able to discern about the dog from the few seconds of video. Looked like a pit bull to me. Still can't blame the cop for shooting. I do wonder though, did anyone go back and find the money the old boy lost?

[ojibweindian]

The Smoaks were puttering along in their loaded (with luggage) Taurus station waggon. As Tamara pointed out earlier, any blithering idiot with a modicum of common sense (and NORMAL levels of testosterone) could have determined that the Smoaks were more than likely not your arch-typical carjackers/kidnappers. It would have been very easy to simply pull them over, verify that these "felonious criminals" were, in fact, the Smoaks, inform Mr. Smoak that he dropped his wallet some miles back, return it to him, and wish him and his a great stay in Tenessee.

We could frame this differently; how 'bout this? The next time you're driving down the road and you see someone in the car next to you suddenly whip out a cell phone, ask yourself if the next thing you're prepared to see is several cop cars bearing down on ya?

[Matt G]

Can you say "Force continuum"? Can you say "buttstroke"?

Yup. Sure can. And you know what? Use of force continuum is applicable to people.

Buttstroke? My gawd. Pray tell, who would train to use it on an animal which stands 2 feet tall, which would entail us looking down the barrel of our own chambered shotgun?

Much is made of the apparrent attitude of the animal as it exited the vehicle. Exploring the possibilities, could it be possible that the dog came out of the car, bouncy and happy, only to turn around, see his master and mistress threatened, and attack their apparrent agressors?

Further, could it be possible that the officer might have missed something that you believe you see in your viewing of the incident?

Folks, those are questions I pose before you for your consideration. I'm gonna sit the rest of this thread out, okay? :)

Y'all have fun!

[Tamara]

*sigh* So many things to say here...

Now. Put that aside. Let's even assume that the stop was bad, and the cops did everything wrong on scene. Fine.

No, I'm not going to consider this outside the totality of the circumstances, and neither will a jury. :(

Consider what you know now, after having sat in your chair and watched the video two or three times, vs what could be seen then, in the dark, with flashing lights, and a little adrenaline (which is, BTW, a good thing to have in your system-- it keeps you alive.).

I was hoping that you'd remember that the last time I used the phrase "ot-nay oo-tay ight-bray" was in defending Officer Law for shooting Anthony Lee after Mssr. Lee pointed a fake Desert Ego at him. I kinda hoped it'd remind you that I really do try not to make knee-jerk "cop bashing" reponses. I hope that those on the other side of the badge try equally hard not to make automatic "cop defending" ones. :(

...complete your felony stops By The Book, because that leaves NO QUESTION.

Why, when it's by a Tennessee roadside, it's "By The Book" and a good thing, but when it's at a school or airport it's "Zero Tolerance" and a dumb thing that removes personal judgement and decision-making skills from the loop?

There were scenarios where I'd be defending the officer for the identical action: If the dog was bigger, or making a more serious-looking attack run. If, instead of the Griswolds, the stop had been a car full of adolescent males. Perhaps more...

[KMKeller]

Mover
KMKeller, I impressed how much you are able to discern about the dog from the few seconds of video
Sarcasm aside, you'd be surprised... For instance, a boxer has a height range of 21-25 inches at the shoulder, a beagle, roughly 13-15 inches. If you add another 3-5 inches to the beagle to account for it's head, it stands roughly 18-20 inches at the head. I'm 6'1" tall and my knee joint is right at 21-22 inches. If you look at the video and take the cant of the camera into account, the dog's head doesn't come past the officer's knee. That places the dog in roughly the same size frame as your beagle or possible an inch or two larger. I stand by my original estimate. Further, the dog displays the slighter build of the boxer rather than the stocky build of the bulldog.

Also, if you look at the last few frames of the video prior to Officer Hall shooting the dog, you'll see that the dog was trying to figure out what the shotgun was. It would appear that the dog was trying to sniff the muzzle of the gun.

Odd how the money was never mentioned. Some good ol' boy driving along found himself some beer money! One also has to wonder if they found the wallett and ran the plates on the car. If they had, they would've realized that the two belonged to the same person.

[F4GIB]

Mover:
"though in situation like this, you don't have time to think about what you would do..."

It just struck me. If he did any mental role playing (like they teach in most academies) he did have time to think about what he would do if a dog approached him. I suspect he went to the incident with the choice already made in his mind - "the dog is toast" - because, in his mental role playing the dog ALWAYS was a threat and he'd conditioned himself to shoot immediately. What's that old saying? Ah yes, you fight like you train. And he did.

Unfortunately, his mental "training" was defective because it focussed exclusively on SHTF situations while in real life a very high % of stops are not such and many involve innocent persons. Remember almost all civilians have never personally encountered a policeman in his or her enforcement role.

[Gila Jorge]

I trust that these poor folks sue the bejabbers out of these ignorant jack boots.

[Sttirp]

Unfortunately, his mental "training" was defective

Agree with this completely.....

[answerguy]

Don't worry about the money Mr Smoak lost from his wallet. The THP will be filling it up for him many times over.

[ojibweindian]

The cop has more than just "software" issues; his "hardware" is hosed, as well.

[DDGator]

You can criticize us for reaching conclusions based upon solely this video, but we are just the first on the list -- Internal Affairs, State Attorney, Civil Jury, etc. When you have a dashboard cam -- that becomes the focus of anyone's analysis.

I think the dog was clearly non-threatening. A vicious dog would have been barking and forthing at the mouth and trying to get out of that car. The dog either got out (finally) of a door or was let out. Dogs arent sharks. They dont circle their prey. This dog was happy to be out of the car and was bounding past a "target" only to come back to see what was going on. A vicious dog would charge right for his intended target.

As for those defending the cops because their hands were full or they couldnt be distracted -- that doesnt hold water. There were plenty of cops there to cover the couple of suspects, who were cooperative. By that time they should have had a pretty good idea that this was the wrong people.

I hope this cop gets disciplined. I am sure the people will sue, but dont expect too much. A dog is considered personal property. Depends on the law there, but in Florida you couldnt recover too much on this type of claim.

[rock jock]

Besides, if Officer Law did not already have strong suspicions that this stop was a snafu from the get-go based on the fact that most armed robbery teams don't resemble the Griswolds so strongly, then I'm going to go so far as to suggest that he's ot-nay oo-tay ight-bray, if you know what I mean.
Perhaps they were trying to compensate for their racial profiling of black suspects?

[Mover]

KMKeller, The video I've seen does not clearly show the dog in relation to the cop. If I see the one you describe, I'll probably agree with you.
F4GIB, You make a good point. I have experienced the enforcement mode. I was shooting pool in a bar once when a drug bust went down. The fact that I didn't do drugs would not have mattered to the undercover officer pointing his Glock at my face, had I not done exactly as he said.

[KMKeller]

I've seen the same vids as you. I just ran them on a frame by frame until I had clear views of officers and the dog at various points in the videos. I ran my measurements off of the stills at that point. There's gonna be some room for error, but not too much. I think though, that the point is that the dog was not the size of your average Rottweiler, doberman, or even as large as a Pit Bull, which was my original point. If the dog were the size of one of the aforementioned, my reaction probably would have been different.

[gun-fucious]

it seems to me that the situation went down hill,
when the innocent citizen surendered
the control of his family to the police.

Me wonders what would of happened,
if the driver refused to allow his family
to leave the safety of the family vehicle.

"I am innocent and we will wait IN here until you figure that out."
"If you need to escort us to the local police station, then we will follow."

[JoeSF]

I had a hard time making it all out form the quality of the video, but it does not appear that the dog was threatening. Mail men deal with this everyday and they don't shoot dogs. Ask a mail man.

[Master Blaster]

Some folks are afraid of Dogs, Very affraid, the size does not matter.

Some of us look at their dogs as children who never grow up.

A person who does not fear/ or own a dog cannot imagine either of these perspectives.

My guess is that this officer feared dogs.

As far as stopping the Griswolds, the police had no evidence of a Felony in progress other than a lost wallet, and a cell phone call from a witness who only saw the wallet not a crime.

Excuse me sir did you lose your wallet? what is your name and birthday? Every thing OK, thanks have a good night.

That should have been the way the stop went down.


Too much adrenaline and testosterone, and too little common sense. resulted in this tragedy, it could have been worse.

Would the Officers on the board like this team to do a no knock raid at their house at 3:00 AM based on an annonymous cell phone caller who saw a man armed with a gun go in, or who claim that drugs were being sold at their house?

I think some retraining and re-evaluation of police procedure is needed here.

[Glockster35]

As a proud Dog owner (and cat, mouse, hamster etc), I will not place judgement on what occurred in this video. I don't know the facts and I wasn't there in this situation.

I also haven't read this entire thread to get the details. I only read 6-7 posts.:fire:

I will say that as someone in the LE community (military police) I have been faced with shooting dogs in the past. Haven't done it yet, but will not get bit by one either. If for one second I believed the canine was coming in for a bite, I wouldn't hesitate to shoot.

I for one don't trust other peoples dogs, never have never will. I believe that if your canine isn't trasined to the point that you can command it to stop, sit, laydown or drop, you are looking for problems.

I have heard it said that there are no such things as bad pets, just bad owners.

[riverdog]

You guys are putting too much emphasis on the video when the real cause of this debacle happened on the phone. Between the 911 call and the dispatch centers who ramped this from a lost wallet report to a BOLO involved in a robbery, the felony stop procedures could only be expected.

Once the stop happened and Officer Hall became involved, his role as back-up forced the shoot. He might be afraid of dogs, he might own dogs, who knows. I do know that you aren't seeing everything that he saw and he didn't have the use of replay prior to making his decision.

Should things have gone down differently? Definitely. Would I have shot the dog? Nope, but dogs have never been a problem for me. Hell a big male Rottweiler crossed the street to check me out once when I was running. I just stopped and did the socially acceptable canine thing and he was fine. His owner about had a coronary when he saw his guard dog with me across the street from his business, but that was his problem.

Our problem is getting over the fact that this little dog wanted to play, and that's what got it killed. That and a chain of events that should never have occurred. Way back when that lady said 110 MPH ...

[rhedley]

Matt G
Didn't need to look at your profile, it is ALL OVER YOUR POST.

I view most "LEO" in the same light as you do "Civilians"
~~~~~~~~~They're Suspects~~~~~~~~

This incident has enforced my feelings.

No need for you to reply. :)

[Derek Zeanah]

Part of the problem here is "dog owners" versus otherwise.

I take my dog on trips across the country (we live in FLorida, and she's been as far as New Mexico, but we haven't had her that long). Stopping on the side of the road is a wonderful experience for a dog -- 5 minutes in new territory with new smells probably trumps a 30-minute walk in normal territory. We know this without having to think about it.

We can also tell from the body language of the dog that it was in happy/explore/play mode, and was entirely non-threatening. I wouldn't have had a problem with the dog at all. Even if it'd changed its mind and turned mean in an attempt to defend its owners, that would still have been a situation that's easy to defuse (small dog, big cop, mommy and daddy welling "no" and talking in motherese).

No biggie.

Did the cop know any of this? Unknown. Does that excuse his behavior? Nope.

What gets me is this:

Does a dog get as much respect, regarding use of force, as a human being? If the cops send a K9 unit after me for whatever reason and I knock it on the head with a ball-peen hammer to kill it, is that "just a dog?"

What am I going to be charged with for killing a police dog? What are the potential penalties for that? Might I be charged with a crime in some states that's equivalent to slamming a ball-peen hammer into the temple of a human officer? Might my life be forfeit for killing "just a dog?"

This has got to go both ways. If my dog is property, then so are police dogs.

[KMKeller]

What am I going to be charged with for killing a police dog? What are the potential penalties for that? Might I be charged with a crime in some states that's equivalent to slamming a ball-peen hammer into the temple of a human officer? Might my life be forfeit for killing "just a dog?"

Excellent point Derek! I know in some states that an assault on an officer bears no distinction between K9 or human. As a matter of fact, wasn't there recently a case where a criminal was sentenced to hard time for shooting a K9?

So, tables turned, if a K9 gets away from his handler and comes trotting towards me, I suppose I'm allowed to pull my concealed weapon and blow the K9s head off without repurcussion? After all, these dogs have been trained to attack and most are rather large intimidating dogs.

[answerguy]

And just when were the dog's owners supposed to give a 'sit' command to their dog?

I for one don't trust other peoples dogs, never have never will. I believe that if your canine isn't trasined to the point that you can command it to stop, sit, laydown or drop, you are looking for problems.

While they were spread eagled on the shoulder of the road with multiple LEOs yelling commands at them? I'm sure Mr Smoak's main concern about the car door being open is that he was afraid the dog would get out in traffic. How could he have envisioned that the cops would snuff his pet right in front of his eyes?

[KMKeller]

To further Derek's point. Interesting dichotomy regarding the sentiments. Cop shoots persons pet, oh well. Person shoots cop's pet, charges, memorials, eulogies, bands play, etc. What a vivid display of the differing mindsets... as well as the similarities in how people feel about pets. It's a helluva lot different when it's your own.

K9 memorial site (http://www.policek9.com/)

According to this behavior, the Smoaks dog, if attacking, was protecting it's master and due the honor of a 21 gun salute, a formal memorial replete with weeping handlers, a commendation for valor, and a full formal burial in an annointed place of rest.

[TheeBadOne]

Whatever happened to the old, "Hey boys, I heard you were involved in a robbery, please hand those guns over and whatever identifaction you may have."
Looks like Hollywood again. All the cops who use to use this approach are D E A D, as in no longer breathing. Looks like someone has a nice view of the earth from space...:rolleyes:

[Ian]

"Jack-booted thug" would be a compliment to these scumbags. First they pull a felony car stop on a family over a worthless, unsupported, anonymous tip, then they ignore all evidence that the family are NOT a couple robbers, then they refuse to contian the dog by closing the car doors, then they kill the family pet. Slime. If karma exists, that cop's pet dog will get run over by a cement truck, with the driver slowing down only long enough to laugh at the cop as he goes by.

When you consider the legal distinctions between a police attack dog and a family pet, the situation only becomes more disgusting.

[FNHP35]

While I am not sure that this was an entirely justified shooting, I still do not see this as something to get too worked up over. A dog is not the same, in any case, as a person, not even legally (not even a K-9 “officer”). You can’t get the death penalty for killing a dog, not in any state I know of. There isn’t any murder statute that I know of that covers dogs, and for sure not in my state. Also, a K-9 dog is much more an extension of the officer than this dog ever was. They have the laws covering assault of the K-9’s to protect the officers, since it the dogs are out there protecting the human police officers. If you ram a police car you will get nailed for assaulting a police officer, but does that mean a car holds the same value as a person? I think not.
Next issue I have is with the idea that just because the dog is wagging its tail it’s friendly. That is not the case. A dog that is excited wags its tail. A scared dog won’t, but if he or she is excited it might, and that doesn’t mean he or she is all that interested in playing.
Next issue, yes, it does seem that the officer that shot the dog did not know how to handle a dog well at all. It would have been wiser for him to kick the dog, but at the same time, he had a shotgun and in his mind he probably was trying to deescalate the situation and back away. He moved back a good distance, and even changed direction to move out of the dog’s way. Of course that didn’t work, because the dog probably just wanted to see the officer. But to give the dog a butt stroke with the shotgun is a goofy, dangerous, and dumb idea. He would almost certainly have had to sweep the other people with the muzzle and certainly himself to hit the dog. To get OC spray out is a rather difficult option for him, since he has a shotgun. Same with a baton. Kicking the dog would be the wisest course of action, but at the same time, with a shotgun was pointed at the dog the entire time, not really giving him the leverage, or a safe way to kick the dog. The officer was handling the dog like he would a person (by covering him) and if that dog had been a person (full grown), that would be been a justifiable shooting.
As for the stop, it looked clean to me. Yes, the didn’t look like your average armed robbers, but then, why would you be profiling a person like that? You, as the police officer getting the call, are told that these people are possible armed robbers. I, as any person that has any idea of safety and protocol would go into high risk traffic stop mode, which these officers did. Should they have left the door open? They probably should have closed it. but at the same time, this was a high risk traffic stop with lots of things in the car, I might, as an officer on scene want the doors open so that I could have a better view, and feeling of what’s going on inside of the car. That is the SOP of a high risk stop. Someone said he was proned out. It actually looks like, and I could be wrong, that he’s actually kneeling, I don’t see how they handled the people badly at all. They weren’t rough housed, or hurt in anyway until the man jumped up. They were spoken to in a polite manner, and weren’t accused. Looks like they handled the people very well. Whether the BOLO should have been given out, I don’t know, I don’t know the entire story on that.
I like my dog, and wouldn’t want anyone to shoot her, but in that circumstance, I could understand why a person would do that. I wouldn’t, but I most likely have a better understanding of how dogs work than this officer did. Does that mean this officer is a terrible jack-booted thug? No, I dare say he’s not. He’s probably just inexperienced with dogs. Does this mean he should be fired? I don’t believe so, dogs are still property in this country, and should remain that way. Should the family be compensated for the loss? Yes, I think it would be a good idea to pay the family for the dog, but sadly, I don’t think they should recover any punitive damages. Though, admittedly, that’s just my gut feeling of how this should end. Somehow I doubt that they will get anything, not in court at least. I feel sorry for the family, it’s a bummer of a situation. This is not anything close to shooting a person, and remember there have been justifiable homicides where the officer thought he was in danger, but in reality was not.

Andrew

[.45TCB]

Here's my reasoning for why I think the officer was NOT justified in firing his weapon: As others have stated in this thread, people deal with barking, sometimes menacing dogs everyday: mailmen, meter readers, deliverymen, etc. That these people complete their tasks without killing the animals tells us that there are other ways to deal with this perceived threat. IMO, the officer used poor judgement in choosing the most violent way possible to deal with a problem that does not appear to place him in imminent jeopardy.
. . . there have been justifiable homicides where the officer thought he was in danger, but in reality was not.
And there have been shootings ruled "justified", which clearly were not. Recently an FBI agent pulled over a car while looking for a robbery suspect. The driver was shot when he moved to unbuckle his seat belt after being ordered to exit the vehicle. The shooting was ruled "justified", but IMO that individual does not have the temperment or the judgement that we should expect of law enforcement officers. I place the Cookeville officer, despite the differences in circumstances between these two incidents, in the same category.

[Sergeant Bob]

And, before anyone says that a 25 lb dog (looks closer to 30+ to me, but no matter) cannot kill a grown man, has anyone here ever suffered a major infection from a small animal bite? I have, and a 4 lb cat nearly cost me my left index finger, once. Consider the myriad of diseases that a dog may carry. Must the officer suffer being bitten, because the animal cannot at that moment rip out his throat?
Honest Chief....that Chihuahua looked like he wanted to KILL ME!!! Hahahahahahahaha!!! Hoohoohoohoohoo!!! ROFLMAO!!!! OMGITIGB!!!

[DeltaElite]

On the theory that an animal may be diseased and cause harm to an officer, then we should be shooting any human that becomes aggressive due to the diseases that humans carry.

I had a buddy get bit by a cat on duty, he spent 3 days in ICU with a blood infection. :eek:

Assuming that all animals are diseased and therefore can be shot, would require the same rationale against humans.
I know the dogs in my patrol turf are healthier than the addicts and hookers I deal with.
Hmmmmmmmmm, what to do, what to do....:evil:

[WonderNine]

The thing I don't understand is, didn't the dog even run by a couple of people (at least one other cop) before it even ran towards Shotgun George? Geez, it just looked like a little dog running around playing.

That cop looks what, at least 190lbs and 6' or so. If the little dog even tried to attack him he could have just kicked the dogs @$$ across the ditch if it didn't respond to voice commands.

But no we got BLAM!!!!

[faustulus]

I can't wait till the nice people of Tennessee get the bill for this dog.

[Preacherman]

Friends, as I've posted in other threads on this subject, it's been beaten to death by now. We have no new facts to go by, other than the TV footage. The matter is now in the hands of the legal system, and judging by the truly massive nationwide publicity this incident has generated, I don't think anyone's going to be able to sweep anything under the carpet to avoid scrutiny. Let's not indulge in "trial by media", let's try to generate more light than heat, and let's give the legal system time to do its job without endless (and pointless) speculation.

Thread closed.