Why?


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Blarelli
November 21, 2007, 10:14 PM
Why do you think it is that none of the major gun manufacturers (ruger, glock, S&W, Sig, etc.) are in the 'pocket auto' market? Most of them have compacts, or sub compacts, but no true pocket guns that I can think of.

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Exmasonite
November 21, 2007, 10:20 PM
WHY?


does somebody title a thread with a single, cryptic word without further elaboration?

Walkalong
November 21, 2007, 10:23 PM
Ditto. I almost skipped it, but curiosity killed the cat you know. ;)

doc2rn
November 21, 2007, 10:25 PM
Beretta does

Blarelli
November 21, 2007, 10:27 PM
Yeah, Beretta has the ?tomcat? .32 acp. Why isn't any of the other big boys in the game?

mekender
November 21, 2007, 10:27 PM
probably none of them want to get the name that gets associated with the fact that a great % of crimes are committed with such guns... look at how kel-tec and hi-point get blasted in the news...

Bezoar
November 21, 2007, 10:49 PM
Most of the companies you have listed make their bread and butter from government contracts. In essence their bottom line and livelyhood depends on having a product that the government purchassing agents LIKE.

IF the person who buys 100,000 handguns from you every 8 years likes big full size handguns, and does not like the existence of easily carried pistols for citizens, you tend to focus on full size handguns to keep that purchaser buying from you. As a result you dont really care for the design of small pocket guns because engineers and weapons design is expensive, and the pocket gun market is already dominated. Hence why go to the expense of more engineers, r and d work, and machine costs to make a product that your main buyer will not purchase, and may stop buying from you based on that pocket gun you just released to a very small consumer demand last month?

Car Knocker
November 21, 2007, 10:52 PM
Because.

kd7nqb
November 21, 2007, 11:55 PM
Frankly they stick to what they know. The difference between a pocket pistol and a Sub-compact is HUGE (Ironic, kinda). What I am more surprised is that somebody like S&W does not buy Kel-tec.

Halo is for Kids
November 22, 2007, 01:47 AM
What I am more surprised is that somebody like S&W does not buy Kel-tec.

I've often wondered that myself. I'd like to see an alloy frame P3AT.

Thernlund
November 22, 2007, 01:59 AM
Maybe there's not enough money in such a product line unless you specialize in it. Manufactures have to pick and choose which products they're going to make, eh?

You could just as easily ask why they don't all make shotguns. I bet Glock would make a good one.


-T.

average_shooter
November 22, 2007, 02:12 AM
Why?
Because.

LOL.

Anyway, what about Taurus? They're getting bigger and their line seems to run the gamut, everything from large-frame autos to pocket .22s.

Autolycus
November 22, 2007, 03:24 AM
Well couldn't pants manufacturers make larger pants pockets, thus making Glock 26/27 and HK P2000sk size guns pocket guns?

brett30030
November 22, 2007, 03:41 AM
probably none of them want to get the name that gets associated with the fact that a great % of crimes are committed with such guns... look at how kel-tec and hi-point get blasted in the news...

References?

JDGray
November 22, 2007, 06:35 AM
WHY?


does somebody title a thread with a single, cryptic word without further elaboration?

Why can't people write what they want, without others questioning why?:confused:

Thernlund
November 22, 2007, 06:49 AM
Why can't people write what they want, without others questioning why?

Indeed.


-T.

duckjihad
November 22, 2007, 07:23 AM
I dunno, but I'm with Thernlund: Am anxiously hoping Glock comes out with one. Til then, I'll carry my Tomcat. May get one of the PPSs once they've been around a year or two and worked through any first run bugs that may appear.

Thernlund
November 22, 2007, 07:55 AM
I'm with Thernlund: Am anxiously hoping Glock comes out with one.

I actually meant to say Glock would make great shotguns, but now that you mention it, a "pocket auto" from Glock would be pretty slick.


-T.

kmrcstintn
November 22, 2007, 08:10 AM
S&W, Taurus, and Charter Arms all address the pocket carry market with snub-nosed revolvers, some of which have shrouded hammers or internal hammers which are designed for firing from inside a pocket multiple times...:D

just try firing multiple shots from inside a pocket with a semiautomatic pistol :neener::scrutiny::what:

outofbattery
November 22, 2007, 08:16 AM
FYI: if you scroll your cursor over the thread title,you can read the first couple lines of the post,it speeds up seeing if something's worth reading.

As to why,it's been already answered but pocket pistols are almost exclusively an American market these days and a small one at that.Glock can't bring in their .380's because they don't meet enough points.They could build a smaller pocket model here but I'm sure if Gaston thought it worthwhile,it'd have been done already.I think there is also some degree of reputation that some manufacturers would like to keep.Like it or not,there is certainly some degree of wanting to be associated with law enforcement and military use while small pocket autos tend to have a less palatable reputation.I'm sure the Brady Bunch would be banging gongs and screaming if Glock and SIG introduced new "pocket rockets".S&W tried it with the small Sigma but they are fairly horrible pistols,I strongly doubt you'll see an M&P backup.

RUT
November 22, 2007, 09:18 AM
Cuz they're "mouse" guns, that's why.

The Lone Haranguer
November 22, 2007, 10:51 AM
There certainly are very few service caliber (9mm Luger and up in terms of power) pistols of a true pocket size.

Halo is for Kids
November 22, 2007, 11:31 AM
S&W tried it with the small Sigma but they are fairly horrible pistols

+1
I'll second that: a small, lightweight, direct blowback 9mm with agressive checkering.
-Sounds like one of those sci-fi disaster films "We can do it, but at what cost?"

kd7nqb
November 22, 2007, 11:41 AM
Also from what I understand GLOCK could not make one, if it was in .380 because it would violate the "Sporting purpose" isn't that why we cant buy a G25 in the US?

GRB
November 22, 2007, 12:13 PM
There are some major manufacturers that make pocket sized pistols:

Beretta has a few offerings in pocket sized pistols. They range from .32 autos, to .25 autos, to .22 autos. Yes these are the so called 'pocket guns' all, but they call them sub-compact models. Why do they call them such, because 'pocket gun' is politically incorrect in today's world.

Glock makes the Models 26 (9mm) and 28 (.380), both easily concealed in a pocket.

Smith & Wesson makes the model 40 revolver with the shrouded hammer (they shroud it for a reason - so it does not grab your pocket on the way out). Granted not a pocket auto, as it is a revolver, but still can be a pocket gun.

Taurus (definitely a major manufacturer whether or not they make fine quality pistols, or junk) has 4 pages of pocket sized pistols listed on their website.

Walther makes the PPK and PPK/S lines, all easily fit into a pocket. They come in .32 Auto and .380 Auto. They were, along with Berettas, the pocket guns of choice for many years.

Now if you don' think of these as pocket guns, what is it of which you are thinking?

All the best,
Glenn B

Quiet
November 22, 2007, 02:51 PM
Walther also just introduced the PPS, pocket-sized 9x19mm and .40S&W.

Some people like the Glock subcompacts (Model 26 [9x19mm], 27 [.40S&W], 28 [.380ACP], 33 [.357SIG], 39 [.45GAP]) as "pocket guns".

HisSoldier
November 22, 2007, 08:59 PM
"I've often wondered that myself. I'd like to see an alloy frame P3AT."
I'd like to see a steel framed one.

SouthpawShootr
November 22, 2007, 09:17 PM
probably none of them want to get the name that gets associated with the fact that a great % of crimes are committed with such guns... look at how kel-tec and hi-point get blasted in the news...

Really? I'd like to see some hard data to back this up. If you believe what you hear on the news, I've got another one for you......... I'm not intimately familiar with the Hi-Point line, but I've never seen one that could fit into a pocket.

I think most of the major companies feel like they're doing just fine and don't want to spend the R&D money on new designs for what they view as a limited market. Especially when they've got model that will "make do" (S&W chief's special and Centennial series, Glock's subcompacts). Ruger is cultivating a more sportsman like image and hideout designs will likely detract from that but they do have one model that will make do (2" SP101s).

Small autos in major calibers (9mm, .40, etc) are notoriously difficult to get reliable and these days, if it doesn't work 100% out of the box it's going back and the owner will post about it in a negative light on 20 gunboards read by 100,000 potential customers. Anybody see an upside in any of this?

orionengnr
November 22, 2007, 09:32 PM
Glock makes the Models 26 (9mm) and 28 (.380), both easily concealed in a pocket.

Gee, I tried the G-26. Looks like a brick in my pocket.

I have yet to find a double-stack anything that is actually a pocket pistol. That includes the Kel-Tec P-11 I just bought.

And is now for sale...pm me if you want one.

Bobo
November 22, 2007, 10:33 PM
Halo is for Kids said;
I've often wondered that myself. I'd like to see an alloy frame P3AT. The P-3AT has an aluminum alloy frame.

ABBOBERG
November 23, 2007, 02:17 PM
Hence why go to the expense of more engineers, r and d work, and machine costs to make a product that your main buyer will not purchase, and may stop buying from you based on that pocket gun you just released to a very small consumer demand last month?

I agree. In order for the big manufacturers to take a major caliber pistol and shrink if from 6.5" down to 5.5", it would take a major re-design. So far, all these manufacturers (Glock, Springfield, S&W, H&K, etc.) have been willing to do is take a full-sized gun and chop off the barrel and the grip in several increments. Some have gone to nesting recoil springs to get sub-compacts, but that doesn't take major R&D and re-design.

Just look at Kahr. In order for Kook-Jin "Justin" Moon to break the "size barrier" an entire re-design was required. As a result, several patents came out of the effort. His reward is to sell 5000+ pocket-sized guns per year. I think the big companies have noticed this and are just not interested in this small of a market, especially with many of them selling several hundred thousand guns a year.

I think that another factor that the police and military would not be as interested in pocket-sized guns is the loss of power. These guys often encounter harder targets than consumers. Penetration is key.

If you look at some of the published specs on performance, there is a significant difference between full sized guns and pocket-sized guns.
Based on hundreds of data points found in publications combined with results of my own, I have found that when you compare a full-sized Glock 17 or Beretta 92F (M9) to pocket-sized guns in the same caliber, this is how much energy you lose:

1. Rohrbaugh R9S- 113 ft-lbs
2. Kahr PM9 - 87 ft-lbs
3. Kel-Tec PF9 - 69 ft-lbs

Here are some sub-compacts:

1. Walther PPS - 67 ft-lbs
2. Glock 26 - 47 ft-lbs
3. S&W M&P-C - 54 ft-lbs
4. Springfield XD9-C - 62 ft-lbs

I truly do not believe that police and military ignore pocket guns due to "political correctness". After all, cops do buy back-up guns. However, I believe that since they have space alloted for a full-sized weapon, they want maximum power and capacity for their primary sidearm.

An opportunity that the big gun manufacturers are missing is to shrink-down (not chop off) full sized guns so that they are pocket-sized but still have the same accuracy and power as a full sized gun. But alas, breakthroughs like this are usually left to the small start-ups.......

Halo is for Kids
November 23, 2007, 04:18 PM
The P-3AT has an aluminum alloy frame.

Forgive me my momentary lapse, let me fix my quote:

I'd like to see a "plastic free" P3AT made entirely out of high quality materials: Steel, Aluminum alloy, scandium, etc.

slzy
November 23, 2007, 10:04 PM
the soviets built a PSM as they called it in 5.45x19, or thereabouts,of which i would have liked to have one.

MachIVshooter
November 23, 2007, 11:06 PM
Glock makes the Models 26 (9mm) and 28 (.380), both easily concealed in a pocket.

25 is also .380, and also not importable

curious why a company like S&W doesn't buy Kel-Tec

K-T is not publicly traded yet. If ever. And they're hardly in financial trouble. One of the most successful "young" gun companies in over a century. Only recently did P3 production finally meet demands to where stores can keep one on the shelf for a few days, perhaps a week. K-T is a really neat company. 100% American, all employees are NRA (mandatory), incredibly innovative products, good price, lifetime warranty, and good CS. I own 4 KT's, only my gen 1 P3 had to go back for the mag catch issue. The PLR is one of my favorite firearms. I will be getting an RFB ASAP.

<---------lifetime KT customer (Armalite, too)

As to why comanies like S&W don't do mouse guns? Guess youd have to ask them. I suspect because they do well enough in their niche, and the pocket gun market is pretty well saturated with more affordable units than what they could put out. S&W does have the pocket revolver market.

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