[RAS-8533]

I was looking for a gun for CCW last week and my local shop had several to choose from. I liked a Smith & Wesson 637 airweight, but with only 5 shots I thought it would be good to have the lazar sights (to make every shot count). They told me I could save a little by ordering a new one with the lazar grips already on it. That sounded good so that is what I did. I went to the store on Monday, and it was in. We filled out the papers, I got a new box of shells (Magtech) and paid for everything. We then went into the shooting range (our local gun shop has a real nice indoor range) so they could show me how to use the lazar. I was very surprised when every 3rd or 4th shell didn’t go off. On top of that about 25% of the ones that did go off put key holes in the target. We then tried some hornady ammo and it did the same thing.

The gun shop called the rep. and he said to send it in. Now I have only owned the gun about 1 hour and the idea of patchen up my brand new gun does not sound right. I want to start over with a new gun that works, but the rep. tells me that’s too bad, send it in. I called the head office and talked with two more company people and they tell me the same thing. Well so much for customer satisfaction! What in the world has happened to the quality that Smith & Wesson used to be known for? How could a gun with 2 major problems get through their quality inspections and what has happened to customer service?

If anybody would like this gun for a sales “DEMO” give me a call. I would just like to replace it with a similar gun made by a more reputable company.

Ralph Stanton
Savannah, Mo
816-262-XXXX




Smith & Wesson people I talked with:

Randy 816-407-1896

Paul Gazda 800-331-0852

Kate 413-781-8300

[TimboKhan]

Guns aren't like TV's, they can't just trade your gun back if your not satisfied. Smith and Wesson is a fine company, but every company makes a lemon once in awhile, and you were unlucky enought to get one, apparently.

Presumably, they want to see the gun so that they can discover what the problem is. Laser grips or no, they will make it right, but your going to have to wait.

[Troutman]

As what is posted.
A good thing like, S&W sends you an overnight label (next day air) for shipping and returns it to you, next day air. The turn around for repair, should be a week.

[pinkymingeo]

S&W customer service can't be beat. They'll often go way beyond their warranty responsibilities and fix stuff that's clearly the customer's fault. Sounds like your problem is a loose strain screw, which takes about a minute to fix.

[mjrodney]

+1 on the loose strain screw.

I ran across an aquaintence with one like that just recently, although the firearm was purchased used and not new.

The previous owner tried to lighten the trigger to the point where it became unreliable.

[XavierBreath]

Old Fuff and I go roundy round on this issue every once in a while, but we agree on one thing..........When you buy a new gun, it should work like a new gun. Load gun, Pull trigger, Bang. Period.

People will sell what people will buy. If a person gets enough people buying, they tend to form a company to make more things for more people to buy, and they reap the profits.

Smith & Wesson has been making fine revolvers since 1852. That's 155 years. They have made some good ones and some bad ones, and there has been some bad ones in production runs of good ones. Nobody wants to buy a used weapon presented as a new one, but nobody wants to buy a non-functioning weapon either. How many times can a manufacturer test fire an individual firearm to insure reliability prior to selling and still have the consumer consider it new? Once? Twenty times? 500 times? That's a good question.

One thing is pretty certain though, S&W stands behind it's product. They have great service, and honor an unwritten lifetime warranty as long as they have parts. They, and Ruger set the industry standard in this regard.

I would advise you to send your firearm in to let them inspect, test, repair and/or possibly replace it. It's not good that it is unavailable to you as a weapon, that is true. It should work straight out of the box, agreed. It doesn't. Give them a chance. They have to take a look at it first though. Your dealer should be acting as an intermediary here. Why is he/she not doing so?

[BigG]

There is no strain screw on a j frame. It has a coil spring. :eek:

[Iggy]

I'm betting that what S&W finds is a very minor glitch, if it is not, you will get a new gun.
They don't mess around.

[camsdaddy]

I can understand your worries and concerns. As others have said the good news is you bought a S&W which I have recently found to have the best customer service in the business. I agree that if it is not something minor chances are you will get a new gun. The good news is if you ever have any problem with the gun for life they will take care of it.

[mquaack]

Check out my post.

I got a brand new 1 day old 642 from S&W.

There customer service cannot be beat.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=311182

[The Lone Haranguer]

The very best customer service is the one you don't have to use. I've had great service from Sigarms, too - including complete replacement of the gun without having to ask for it - but I should not have had to use it.

How many times can a manufacturer test fire an individual firearm to insure reliability prior to selling and still have the consumer consider it new? Once? Twenty times? 500 times? That's a good question.


I don't think it would kill them to run a cylinderful of ammo - or, with an autoloader, a magazineful through each of the two magazines - through a gun as a final QC check. But, I am not well versed in the manufacturing end. :)

[Risasi]

RAS,

This is why you should immediately go back and buy that used one as a backup gun.* :evil:
Even though I prefer Ruger over S&W (not because they're better, but because I'm obstinate and stubborn) don't worry, S&W will definitely take care of you. You just need to send in the one you just bought.






* (Yes, I'm serious. Having the exact same gun as backup is always a good idea. Do so while you have the opportunity.)

[mquaack]

In your letter back to S&W, just state that the only satisfaction to the issue is a replacement with a new gun.

[Jim Watson]

Haranguer,

I haven't looked at a new S&W lately, got all I need or even want, but once upon a time, you could look at a NIB Smith and see burn rings on the cylinder face around every other chamber. They testfired the guns at the factory three shots.

M. Ayoob wrote that when they were pushing the then-new 645 for police sales, they shot each gun 48 rounds. Six magazines of four to six different loads. That is more like it.
There is one custom shop that will sell you an IPSC racegun that has been fired 250 rounds. It is fully tested, broken in, and sighted in. But it costs about $400 more than the next model down that leaves you to find out if it works.

[poet]

S & W has their reputation to maintain. Give them a chance to make things right. I do understand your frustration about it being a new pistol, I'd be upset too!!:(

[parisite]

I hear S&W's customer service is almost as good as Hi-Points.:o

[meef]

Fortunately for me, everything I ever purchased in my entire life always worked perfectly for as long as I wanted to own it.

New cars, appliances, computers, guns - you name it. Nothing ever needed any warranty work or service by the manufacturer. All perfect.

:cool:

I want to start over with a new gun that works, but the rep. tells me that’s too bad, send it in. I called the head office and talked with two more company people and they tell me the same thing. Well so much for customer satisfaction! What in the world has happened to the quality that Smith & Wesson used to be known for? How could a gun with 2 major problems get through their quality inspections and what has happened to customer service?:scrutiny:

Man, would I ever hate to have you as a customer for anything.

Sometimes lemons happen, I don't care what the product is. When a company is willing to do whatever is necessary to fix it, what more can anyone ask?

Give them a chance to make it right, for pete's sake. If they flub that - then bellyache.

[MCgunner]

Naw, way it ain't so! A Smith that ain't perfect out of the box???? My GOD, I thought only Taurus made those!? If it were a Taurus, the Smith snobs would be piling on five pages by now. :rolleyes:

I check out each and every gun before purchase. In this case, if it's not a timing issue, I'd have probably missed the problem, but sounds a lot like a timing issue to me. I don't care if the gun is new or used, I check it out thoroughly and I don't order guns anymore. 1911s got me totally out of that habit. :rolleyes: Talk about guns with issues!

I haven't bought a NEW revolver in quite a while. I never bought a new Smith and might not except that I like the 642 and could see buying one of those some day. Great pocket defense and it's not over-priced like so many Smith products. But, I'll check that dog out, first, you can bet on that! I ain't buying or ordering anything sight unseen unless the store I buy it from will give me my money back if it's flawed and it'll have to be a local store cause I ain't drivin' to Houston to return a gun, cost me more in gas than shipping one, not to mention the waste of time.

[MCgunner]

I hear S&W's customer service is almost as good as Hi-Points.

:D, I've got this little POS .22, a Phoenix Arms. It's kinda neat, reliable and accurate at least. But, it broke a slide. They redesigned it, had a weak point in it. Anyway, I sent it back and within a week parcel post I had a new slide AND two new magazines! Yeah, great service, but the gun is still sorta a POS. LOL But, it's a good shootin' POS and I didn't give much for it and I have uses for it, so I sorta like it. Even POSs can be decent. :D I only use it four outdoor. It's so bloomin' accurate, even with the 3" barrel, it's a viable small game gun, well, rabbits out to 25 yards anyway. I mean, it ain't gonna threaten my Contender for squirrel hunting, but then, I can't just drop the contender in my pocket when I go out the door to go bummin' in the woods. Guess it's sort of a pocket sized kit gun, way I use it. I was plinking water snakes off a pond once (actually went there to fish) with it, making shots out to 25 yards, with a POCKET .22 that cost me 60 bucks! Hell, can't really knock it. :D

[Thaddeus Jones]

Yes, every manufacturer makes a lemon, yada yada yada. Based on what I'm seeing in gun shops, and at the range, and on ALL the gunboards, S&W has an orchard.

S&W has had great customer service in the past. These days I see alot of posts that indicate S&W's customer service may be following their QA/QC.

Just because they made great handguns in the past, dosen't mean they should get a pass for shoddy manufacturing, IMHO. YMMV. TJ

[FunYet]

A. It really sucks that a defective gun can't be exchanged at the store for a working gun, like most products can be exchanged.

B. At least S&W pays shipping for returns and in my experience, fixes whatever is wrong.

They'll make it right.

[jaydubya]

Stick with your 637, and let S&W work it over. Their customer support is the industry's standard. I have put at least four thousand rounds through my 637, mostly standard pressure range loads but plenty of +p as well. Never a FTF. It also has Crimson Trace grips (as do two other handguns), and I love them.
Cordially, Jack

[ATAShooter]

I have a 637 Airweight. It has never failed to fire. I shoot everything from new to reloads. It will Hit everything I aim at. I have shot paper silhouette targets from 10 yards, all the way to a 18"X18" metal dinger at 100 yards. Well satisfied and trust it to cover my a$$ anytime, anywhere.

[meef]

Yes, every manufacturer makes a lemon, yada yada yada. Based on what I'm seeing in gun shops, and at the range, and on ALL the gunboards, S&W has an orchard.

S&W has had great customer service in the past. These days I see alot of posts that indicate S&W's customer service may be following their QA/QC.

Just because they made great handguns in the past, dosen't mean they should get a pass for shoddy manufacturing, IMHO.Uh.. nobody said anything about giving them a pass. What was said was give them the opportunity to make it right, then gritch and moan if they don't.

Yada yada.



ps.... see my sig line.

[Thaddeus Jones]

Yea, it's unreasonable to buy a new gun and expect it to work right out of the box. Let's give them a chance, or two, to make it right, rather than get it right the first time. I mean, after all, they are S&W. :rolleyes:

Personally, I haven't purchased a new S&W since 2001. I keep buying the nice ones they made in the past. I have yet to send one of them back. TJ

[Phydeaux642]

I purchased a Walther P22 earlier this year and it was a POS right out of the box. I called S&W and they sent me return postage and had it back to me in two weeks. They had to replace the barrell. I was so frustrated with the gun that I have only shot it once since it has been back, so, I understand your frustration. I will say that S&W took care of it, so, I really don't have any issues with their customer service. I guess what I'm saying is from my experience S&W will take care of the problem, but it does pi** you off to have to send it in right from the get go.

Your dealer should be acting as an intermediary here. Why is he/she not doing so?

I had the same problem. I told my dealer about the problem and all he said was "That sure sucks. Call S&W and send it back to them." Needless to say, I don't shop with that dealer any longer. Another dealer around the corner from them will actually deal with the company for you when you buy a firearm at their store.

_____________________

"Phydeaux, bad dog....no biscuit!"

[ugaarguy]

The gun shop called the rep. and he said to send it in. Now I have only owned the gun about 1 hour and the idea of patchen up my brand new gun does not sound right. I want to start over with a new gun that works, but the rep. tells me that’s too bad, send it in. I called the head office and talked with two more company people and they tell me the same thing. Well so much for customer satisfaction! What in the world has happened to the quality that Smith & Wesson used to be known for? How could a gun with 2 major problems get through their quality inspections and what has happened to customer service?
Unless the gun is impossible to repair you aren't going to get a new one. To get you a new gun would require S&W to send your dealer a new gun, log that serial number out of their records, your dealer log it in to his bound book, you do another 4473 & background check, and the dealer log it out once the transfer to you is completed because it's a different gun with a different serial number. I have no idea what S&W would then have to do with the original gun. Like someone said earlier it's not a TV that they can just swap out. It's a firearm with a serial number attached to Federally required paper work.

The good thing is Smith & Wesson pays your shipping both ways (unlike Taurus), and they (along with Ruger) have the best turnaround time in the industry. Further, should you need a minor part down the road and want the local smith to install it rather than send it in to S&W they (like Ruger) sell parts directly to gunsmiths and the gunsmith supply houses like Brownells. Not so with Taurus - everything must go back Miami for anything.

If you want a lightweight alloy frame revolver you can give S&W a chance to fix it, or you take the gamble with Taurus, because Ruger's smallest DA revolver is the steel frame SP101 (an excellent revolver without question, but quite heavy compared to a S&W or Taurus lightweight alloy frame piece).

[rkhal]

Quote:
Fortunately for me, everything I ever purchased in my entire life always worked perfectly for as long as I wanted to own it.

New cars, appliances, computers, guns - you name it. Nothing ever needed any warranty work or service by the manufacturer. All perfect.



Quote:
I want to start over with a new gun that works, but the rep. tells me that’s too bad, send it in. I called the head office and talked with two more company people and they tell me the same thing. Well so much for customer satisfaction! What in the world has happened to the quality that Smith & Wesson used to be known for? How could a gun with 2 major problems get through their quality inspections and what has happened to customer service?


Man, would I ever hate to have you as a customer for anything.

Sometimes lemons happen, I don't care what the product is. When a company is willing to do whatever is necessary to fix it, what more can anyone ask?
Since you have never had to use a warranty don't you think that you are not the one to be saying "Man, would I ever hate to have you as a customer for anything?"

I for one feel that buying a nib pistol and discovering I had purchased a paper weight would make me very unhappy. I sure wouldn't want to hear that my piece of junk has the world's greatest warranty behind it and if the don't fix it right the first time they might send me a new one. Listening to someone who in one sentence says he has never bought anything that wasn't perfect and in the next tells me that I am being unreasonable would just finish off my perfect day.

[eagle45]

Listening to someone who in one sentence says he has never bought anything that wasn't perfect and in the next tells me that I am being unreasonable would just finish off my perfect day.

rkhal - please don't take this wrong, but you may want to lighten up just a tad. I suspect meef was using tactic we call 'sarcasm'.

[TimboKhan]

Anyone else think that the OP was a troll?

[mjrodney]

For the record, BigG is correct when he said.....

There is no strain screw on a j frame. It has a coil spring.

The handgun I adjusted was indeed a K-frame, not a J-frame.

I stand corrected.

[pinkymingeo]

Yeah, I hadn't noticed that it was a J-frame either. S&W is using some really short firing pins these days, apparently to meet drop standards for export to the Peoples Republic of California. Hold the trigger back and look at how little protrusion there is. My Smiths with frame-mounted pins all have C&S replacements.

[Ala Dan]

Rest assured, if your new S&W proves too be a factory defect- Smith & Wesson will make it right; even if it takes replacing your weapon~! They
are A1 when it comes to customer satisfaction; and will even pay for all
shipping with their dime~! ;)

Smith & Wesson, Springfield Armory, KEL-TEC, and SIGARMS are among the top
contenders for this honor~! :cool: :D

[plexreticle]

I've not a big S&W fan anymore. I've seen more newer ones with problems than without.

[Choclabman]

Two piece barrel's, MIM parts, and the ILS. S&W needs good customer service.

If you want a refund, then stand your ground with them.

I had a 686 that the ILS locked up. S&W said it was a ILS failure. They replaced the cam spring. I told them, that I was going to use the 686 for SD, and did not trust it now. We argued. They did a full refund.

I now use Ruger or S&W Pre-Lock, MIM free revolvers

[mquaack]

Unless the gun is impossible to repair you aren't going to get a new one. To get you a new gun would require S&W to send your dealer a new gun, log that serial number out of their records, your dealer log it in to his bound book, you do another 4473 & background check, and the dealer log it out once the transfer to you is completed because it's a different gun with a different serial number. I have no idea what S&W would then have to do with the original gun. Like someone said earlier it's not a TV that they can just swap out. It's a firearm with a serial number attached to Federally required paper work.


I returned mine and got a new one delivered to my door by S&W. No forms needed. Arrived UPS next Day Air.

[btg3]

Over the years, I've sent 2 handguns back to S&W.

With each gun, I felt they were attentive to the problem, communicated well, and were committed to my satisfaction. The biggest problem was me, in that I stewed over these guns instead of promptly giving S&W a chance to make good on them.

[MCgunner]

Anyone else think that the OP was a troll?

Why's that? Refuse to believe Smith could make a POS? I doubt the troll post thing. Ya just get burned once in a while if you don't look the guns over first and even thin there's a chance there'll be something wrong you didn't look for. Just send it back and they should make it right. It might take a few weeks, but hey, it ain't the end of the world.

[Bill B.]

Sorry to hear about your problem with your S&W. I also would send it back and get it repaired or replaced by S&W. I do want to add that in spite of what you hear about new S&W's having the lock and MIM parts that 2 of the finest shooting S&W revovlers I have are a S&W 625 and a S&W PC 627. The workmanship in both of these guns is better to me than that found in my S&W 29-2 from about 1970. S&W is still turning out some very nice revolvers and auto's IMO.

[meef]

rkhal - please don't take this wrong, but you may want to lighten up just a tad. I suspect meef was using tactic we call 'sarcasm'.:scrutiny:

You reckon....?






:D

[Larry57]

Not really related, but that 22A semi-auto 22 pistol is a jamming piece of garb. I love my model 10 and 13, but am done with them (for future purchases) after my last episode. It looks like Smith could be rubber stamping garbage. I am no authority, but my last experience was the worst. All types of ammo, all jamming. I know nothing of their customer service.

[TimboKhan]

Why's that? Refuse to believe Smith could make a POS? I doubt the troll post thing. Ya just get burned once in a while if you don't look the guns over first and even thin there's a chance there'll be something wrong you didn't look for. Just send it back and they should make it right. It might take a few weeks, but hey, it ain't the end of the world

I don't think that at all. I think that someone that when someone's first and only post is to complain about horrible experience with a new product and it includes his name and phone number, there is something amiss, thats all.

If you had read my first response, you will see that I said pretty much the same thing as you had. Send it back, they will make it right, everyone screws up once in awhile.

[BlindJustice]

My experience with a Warranty issue & more

I had a problem with extraction of .45 ACP in full moon clips
from the first cylinder full of Rem. 185 gr. JHP I had to force
extraction by pushing the extractor rod down on a sawhorse that
had carpet tacked to the horiz. beam. Next cylinder was WW
230 gr. JHP, same thing.

I call and complain and the customer service guy was kinda
"So?" So I raise my voice and said it isn't right and it's a warranty
issue! So, I got the UPS sticker emailed as an attachmentt the
next day. In the meantime I had prepared a two page letter detailing
the problem and exactly what and how much ammo fired etc. I also
thought as long as it is back in Springfield I'd like a
Master Revolver Action Job.

10 days later I get a phone call from some guy named
John with so much machinery noise in the background it was
hard to hear and communicate. He just had a work order
the letter probably got tossed. I asked about the cylinder
and the extraction - OH he sez it'll have to go to the
warranty department for that.... Then I asked to change
my order with the Perf. Center as I had also wanted a white
outline rear blade installed and a gold bead on the patridge front
sight blade. I asked to not to do the gold bead.

It did get a new cylinder, as well as the M. R. Action job
which is superb but they didn't do the w/o rear glade mod.
and also the Perf. Center charged for shipping $ 14 which
should not have been done because of the warranty issue
ok, that's a small nit just a standard procedure for
the Perf. Center.

What I have a REAL problem with is when the gun came
back all it had was a sheet of paper with three lines
of text line 1. S & W name... Line two and line three
just had work order number on the left and a charge
amount on the other line. Top notch Customer service
and promotion of customer relations should include a
letter say something like "sorry about your new gun not
beijng right. and a note from the Perf. center stating the
MRA job being accomplished

a bit miffed with my experience and any other custom work
on my 625. 686, 617, 60 or SW1911 will be done
elsewhere.

Drop several large on their products and that's what I got.

[XavierBreath]

Anyone else think that the OP was a troll? Anytime there is a brand new single post member with a specific handgun problem there is a fair chance the person is a "one hit wonder" or "drive-by" member who is traveling from gun forum to gun forum airing their dirty laundry. With each passing day, the chances of a return visit to read the responses of members diminishes exponentially.

This behavior is not really that of an internet troll (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_%28Internet%29). An internet troll fishes (trolls) for responses and disrupts the tenor of a productive, informative and enjoyable online forum through controversial posts, flooding, cryptic writing, appeals to emotions, incendiary remarks, personal attacks, assumed identities, and other destructive methods.

Experienced members of online forums know that the most effective way to discourage a troll is usually to ignore him or her, because responding encourages a true troll to continue disruptive posts, hence the often seen warning "Please do not feed the troll". Even that response is hazardous though. Calling out trolls is not usually a good technique, as it just adds to the irrational challenges and exacerbates the problem. When a troll is called out, an assumption is made about the new member's motives. Members begin to debate over the "trollish" behavior, and the troll gets fed. Are the motives, in this case, to inform or to disrupt the forum? That remains to be seen.

At this point, in this case, no response at all would appear to serve a "drive-by" poster's purpose. There would be a singular one-sided post available in the search engine of this forum with no corresponding argument to balance it out. That ain't good.

don't think that at all. I think that someone that when someone's first and only post is to complain about horrible experience with a new product and it includes his name and phone number, there is something amiss, thats all.I think Timbo may be on the money here. Mr. Stanton could be a niave person new to the internet. He could be someone trying to get past our no auction policy. He could also be a malicious person, not Ralph Stanton at all, but someone supplying a legitimate phone number to create a flury of incoming calls to an unsuspecting person who is totally oblivious to the release of their phone number on the internet.

Chances are Ralph Stanton at 816-262-XXXX in Savannah, Mo is what he presents himself as, a new handgun owner frustrated with a new gun, and feeling as though he got screwed. He may be enjoying the Thanksgiving holidays rather than cruising the internet. No problem there, the responses given here pretty much take care of the issue.

Now, there is the issue of Mr. Stanton violating the rules here, offering a handgun, albeit a poorly functioning one, in a kind of auction. I think the editing of his telephone number will pretty much take care of that, as well as the possibility of a malicious prank on an unsuspecting victim.

If anyone else has personal experience with Smith & Wesson's warranty service, please feel free to give a factual account in this thread.

In the meantime, I'm interested in this post.
I returned mine and got a new one delivered to my door by S&W. No forms needed. Arrived UPS next Day Air.Do you have an FFL? This is pretty interesting behavior on S&W's part, delivering handguns to people's doorstep by UPS. Did you have to sign for it? tell us more......

[tinygnat219]

Just be glad it wasn't a Taurus, you'd still be on hold, then be told to send it in (at your expense), wait 4-6 months with no status, and then have it show up one day and nothing's been done to it.

[BlindJustice]

Xavierbreath

On the 1911 forum one poster said he had a SW1911 with a problem
after several thousand rounds - nice broken in gun that there was a
warranty issue. He sent it in with the S&W supplied UPS stuff and
all that. What he was dis-satisfied with is S&W gave him a new
frame with his original serial number and the old one was destroyed. He
was ticked off that they didn't call him and tell him what they were doing.
He bitched about having to break it in again. so perhaps there's the
answer of not getting the original FFL dealer involved with changing his
records.

I just related my experience and the communication in my case
also was less than satisfactory. although the work they
did perform was excellent as far as I can tell. If you get a Master
Revolver Action Job from the S&W Perf. Center it
should be stated in a letter to document it - I wrote a note
on the work order & charge what it was and put it in the
original box and dated it.

I've had much more the personal touch from Guy Hogue,
Milt SParks, Wilson Combat, Starline brass as well as Leadhead
bullets, as well as personal commmunication in exploring some
possible projects with Hamilton Bowen.

just my .02

[BlindJustice]

Just for the record

In the last 2 1/2 years I have purchased 5 S & W handguns
The 625 is the only warranty issue so far. I have no problem after
with the SW1911, 617, or 60, the jury is out though on the
686P - after the first range session no problem with DA pull but when I
cock it SA the last stage to get it fully cocked is hard to actuate.
I need to go to the range and fire some more with it.

1 out of 5 for my personal experience maybe 2 out of 5 with problems
out of the box. IMO - S&W will only make QA/QC for new guns stricter or
more comprehensive before they ship if it costs them more to have guns
shippped back than getting it right in the first place but the fact that I am
writing this casts something on the current product and who is running the
company = the company did have a short period of foreign ownership around
8-10 years ago, No?

Perhaps now the bean counters are driving production and customer service
and not paying the extra admin. help for communication with the customers.

It happens in man companies and y industries.

[RAS-8533]

It seems like you spent alot of time worrying about me. Well I am a trapshooter and I spend most of my time on trapshooters.com. On my post I only put acurrate info (that I can prove). I thought maybe some more shooters might be interested in my experiance with S&W. I own and have owned alot of guns of all kinds.
I guess I am probably weird but when I have problems like these, I am finished with that company. I don't know what I am going to do with the gun, I expect it will be easy to trade off since so many people think S&W is so great.
I am probably an idiot , but I am no phony.

Ralph Stanton
Savannah, Mo
816-262-XXXX

[ugaarguy]

I returned mine and got a new one delivered to my door by S&W. No forms needed. Arrived UPS next Day Air.
I stand corrected.

Did the new gun have the old gun's serial number as related in one of the above post where the old frame was destroyed to avoid duplicate serial numbers?

[XavierBreath]

Mr. Stanton,

Reposting the same old stuff with unveritable proof of who you are is simply a troll's technique. While I initially thought you were a new member frustrated over a new gun, your behavior is leading me to believe otherwise. You are your behavior here. If you act like a troll, you become one. If you act llike a valuable member, you become one. You have not responded to a single post in this thread but mine, the moderator's post. Again, that is indicative of a troll when the moderator appears in a thread. The focus is not unlike that of a demon when the exorcist appears to a possessed individual. If you are not a troll, indicate otherwise. Participate in your own thread.

You may go to our Buy, Sell and Trade: Handguns Forum (http://thehighroad.org/forumdisplay.php?f=22), and abide by the rules there if you want to trade off your revolver using The High Road as a vehicle.

Do not post your telephone number here again.

If you post your telephone number here again in an attempt to conduct a trade on the Revolver forum, you will be banned from The High Road. Permanently.

Make certain that you abide by the rules of the Buy, Sell and Trade: Handguns Forum (http://thehighroad.org/forumdisplay.php?f=22) as well.

I hope I have made myself clear.

[mquaack]

Do you have an FFL? This is pretty interesting behavior on S&W's part, delivering handguns to people's doorstep by UPS. Did you have to sign for it? tell us more......

I dont have a FFL.

S&W delivers your old handgun after repair to your door and you have to sign for it so why not a replacement. When my 642 went back to S&W for the second time in 2 weeks I requested that the only satisfaction to the matter was a new 642. S&W agreed with no problems or hassle.

I requested a new 642 and a new one was delivered.

[mquaack]

Did the new gun have the old gun's serial number as related in one of the above post where the old frame was destroyed to avoid duplicate serial numbers?

Nope, a brand new gun and serial number. My old one was DAN9*** made Feb. 2006

My new one DBN4***, made Nov. 13th, 2007

I received it on Nov. 15th

S&W called me on Nov 14th and told me they were sending me a brand new 642 as a replacement, told me when it was coming, gave my UPS tracking number, it arrived, I signed for it, and was very satisfied at their customer service.

[SouthpawShootr]

I've heard of direct replacement before. I guess they consider replacement as repair. It's gun for gun and even more readily traced when necessary since you don't have to trace through manufacturer, distributor, gunshop to get to the owner.

With regards to the original issue...........I understand the frustration, but I don't understand this person's apparent reluctance to send the gun in for warranty service. They'll fix it, they'll even pay shipping (which some manufacturers don't do). Very likely it will be gone a couple of weeks tops. It could very well be something very simple. If it's something serious, they'll probably replace the gun outright. If, when he gets it back, he no longer wants it, sell or trade. He'll lose some money, but preowned = used.

[XavierBreath]

S&W delivers your old handgun after repair to your door and you have to sign for it so why not a replacement.I was under the impression that the returned handgun had to go through a FFL and the NICS done again. I guess I was wrong. It ain't the first time, probably won't be the last.......

All I could find quickly was this summary, but it appears you are correct. My apologies for any confusion I may have caused.
Firearms may not be mailed or shipped interstate from one non-FFL to another non-FFL. Personally owned rifles and shotguns may be mailed or shipped to an FFL in any state for any lawful purpose, including sale, repair, or customizing. An FFL may ship a firearm or replacement firearm of the same kind and type to a person from whom it was received. Under U.S. Postal regulations, handguns may be sent via the Postal Service only from one FFL to another FFL, or between authorized government officials.

[ryanl]

yes you are mistaken, you can send your firearm directly to any manufacturer or gunsmith for that matter for repair, and they can send it directly back to you, as long as the gunsmith possesses an ffl of course.

[TN Trapper]

I've been collecting S&W's for many years and have had, on more than one occassion, to take advantage of their warranty service. It definitely makes a person angry when you spend your hard earned money on a product that is supposed to be one of the very best only to experience a malfunction of some type right off the bat. My confidence has been shaken in S&W before only to have them proove that they are one of the leaders in customer service in the firearms industry.

I know it's hard to accept when it first happens, but be patient and let them do what they promised: fix it or replace it.

The turn-around time won't be as long as you think it will be and you can bet that when you get it (or another one) back it WILL be right. When that happens you will see that S&W, like anyone else, is not perfect and when something like this happens with one of their products they will do everything reasonable to keep their customers satisfied.

BTW, I have three Taurus revolvers and have had to send one back for adjustments. They fixed it, sent it back quickly and I couldn't be happier with their customer service.

[jmoln]

Two recent warranty problems . . .

S&W 642, brand new, ftf 2 or 3 out of 5 with three different types of ammo, all appeared to be light primer strikes
- called S&W, emailed a label, UPS came to my door to pickup
- replaced firing pin
- gun was back via UPS in about a week

Taurus 94, brand new, ftf 4 or 5 out of 9, again with different ammo, strikes in various positions, many too far out on rim to get fire
- dealer who sold it to me was kind enough to ship it back to Taurus
- three weeks later, still waiting

Guess which manufacturer I will buy from again?

[SouthpawShootr]

Taurus is well known for their lifetime guarantee. Unfortunately, they are equally (perhaps more) well known for extended waits when a warranty repair is required. I like Taurus handguns, I think they need to tighten their QC quite a bit, and I also think they should take a few lessons from S&W in the area of CS.

[Deanimator]

S&W customer service can't be beat.
Sometimes it can, and sometimes it can't. The problem is predicting when which will happen.

I've heard a lot of people say they had great service from S&W and I believe them. That wasn't MY experience, and now I've got a 4" Model 29-2 with box and accessories that's worth about the same as a police trade-in Glock. My initial experience was horrific. After I got my lawyer involved, their head of Customer Service got on the case and I got a reasonable attempt to fix the problem in contrast to their previous slaps in the face. They refinished the gun (after having replaced the barrel, both at their expense). That of course destroyed ANY collector value.

The end result is that I've got a very pretty and monetarily worthless Model 29.

[Deanimator]

The turn-around time won't be as long as you think it will be and you can bet that when you get it (or another one) back it WILL be right.
It took me only days short of six months, although admittedly after my lawyer contacted their corporate counsel, things started happening pretty quickly. If it weren't for their head of Customer Service, Neil Ghibree, I'd STILL be screwing around with them.

[20nickels]

I'll chime in on this.

S&W 625; sent in for waranty work last summer hammer issues. Fixed per my letter of instructions and documentation and even replaced a sideplate screw I boogered up. :)
They stole my bore brush. :( Inexpensive yes, but it's the principle of it.

About to send in my 617 6". Has been a good functioning gun however I have never been wowed by the accuracy. I got to looking at the rifling last week in detail and noticed that there wasn't any on the bottom forward (muzzle) portion of the barrel! :scrutiny: Approximately 25-30% of the rifling is nonexistant. I have yet to talk to them and I'm certain this is something that they will rectify, but c'mon, something like this should not happen.

I hate shipping guns.

[murph50]

I have always been more of a semi auto person but recently have thought about a revolver for a variety of reasons. I do have a S&W 38 snubbie and a GP 100 but they are for my wife mainly.
At a local GS I've been looking at a S&W 642 with Crimson Trace Laser grips.All this talk here about S&W QC has got me a little paranoid now about getting this gun.
So what's the deal. Has S&W quality control gotten so bad that I should look for something else or is a QC a minor issue?
I always thought that revolvers were supposed to be more reliable than semi autos due to simplicity but from what I'm reading here--that may not be the case.

[20nickels]

Murph, they can be, once they are set up properly. The most reliable gun I've owned out of the box was a Glock......with factory ammo. Don't let the QC probs scare you off, they will stand behind them. There is not a gun in the world I would trade for my 625.

[murph50]

Thanks 20
Yea --I have quite a few semi auto's and never have had to send any back for repairs except for a Kel Tec P3AT. KT was great and that gun is good now.
I was worried that maybe S&W had gone down recently in regard to QC but I guess that it's the typical thing were the guys without any problems are not posting about it:D
Thanks again

[20nickels]

I recently bought an "older" Smith to see what all the fuss was about and the price was certainly right. You can see that it wasn't perfect from the factory either and needed some love because it is well worn in some places (was undoubtly a police sidearm), but is now as perfect as it ever was and more. It will now serve my family for many years to come.
Did you catch that Nebraska vs. CU game? More twists than a mountain road.

[murph50]

20
Sounds like you got a great deal on that gun--an older real metal gun will last.
No I didn't catch that game--my schedule doesn't allow much time for watching sports---workaholic

[351 WINCHESTER]

Smith and Wesson had to change their manufacturing/assembly/engineering to sell guns at afforadble prices. Most of the revolvers that leave their factory nowdays would have been rejected only 30 years ago. Their tolerances (with the exception of the b/c gap) has improved (generally) with the cnc machines, but there is no machine capable of assembling a revolver and doing a little polishing on the innards. Makes a world of difference in the d/a pull. I know s & w stands behind their products, but some of the new guns don't impress me at all.

[RAS-8533]

Well the firing pin looks to short. I think I will put a longer one in. If it will shoot I think I'll just use it that way. There are probably some advantages to a tumbling bullet (1) It might have more stopping power (2) The inch long keyhole might give a better score (3) When people ask about the keyholes I will be able give Smith & Wesson free advertizing and that should releive stress.

Ralph Stanton

[ArchAngelCD]

It seems like you spent alot of time worrying about me. Well I am a trapshooter and I spend most of my time on trapshooters.com. On my post I only put acurrate info (that I can prove). I thought maybe some more shooters might be interested in my experiance with S&W. I own and have owned alot of guns of all kinds.
I guess I am probably weird but when I have problems like these, I am finished with that company. I don't know what I am going to do with the gun, I expect it will be easy to trade off since so many people think S&W is so great.
RAS-8533,
Since you are a Trap shooter can you answer a question for me? If you bought a new shotgun, did all the paperwork and took possession of the gun and then found out there was a problem with the it, would the shop owner take it back and give you a new shotgun? :confused:

[jaydubya]

Mr. Stanton: I am beginning to think you actually do have an S&W 637. In some ammo, especially in light WC range loads -- or super +p loads -- mine keyholes too. The short barrel of a 637 has trouble stabilizing the bullet sometimes. You must experiment with your ammo to get decent results. For self defense, I recommend Remington 158gr. LSWCHP.
Cordially, Jack

[RAS-8533]

Thanks Jack, I will try that ammo. Does your barrel look odd where the bullet goes in? Mine looks funny about the first half inch. Does anybody make a moon clip for the 637 ? That would bring the primers closer to the firing pin.
I appreciate the help.
Ralph Stanton

[Troutman]

<<What has happened to Smith & Wesson?>>

http://assets.espn.go.com/photo/2006/1023/tmq_a_smithwesson_275.jpg

[ArchAngelCD]

RAS-8533,
Why did you answer jaydubya's post but not mine?

[Old Fuff]

X-Breath was being kind... :evil:

The Old Fuff remembers when S&W revolvers were not only test fired, but targeted as well. But time and manufacturing economics have changed.

That said, I believe that when a company sells a product that is represented to be a weapon, which a buyer might be reasonably expected to defend his or her life with, some extra effort should be made to be sure that it will function, and do so out-of-the-box. If things continue as they are, an excellent customer service department (which S&W unquestionably has) might not get the chance to make necessary corrections before it's too late for some particular buyer.

The reason the revolver in question doesn't work is either ammunition related (unlikely but possible), or because Smith & Wesson's Inspection and Quality Control departments missed a defect. That could hapen to any manufacturer, but it seems to be happening more frequently these days.

I'm in the happy position of having exceptional experience, and I am able to inspect and find defects in a handgun before I purchase it. Others are not so fortunate, and they shouldn't have to be.

The best repair department is like one that used to be part of a Maytag commercial - where the repairman was bored to death becaues he had nothing to do.

[meef]

Taurus is well known for their lifetime guarantee.Did you read the fine print?

I think that what it says is they guarantee to try to get the firearm back sometime in your lifetime if you have to send it in for work.

[Old Fuff]

In some ammo, especially in light WC range loads -- or super +p loads -- mine keyholes too. The short barrel of a 637 has trouble stabilizing the bullet sometimes.

Not really. I've gone through a lot of older S&W snubbies, that included various models, and none of them keyholed bullets, regardless of the load.

Does anybody make a moon clip for the 637 ? That would bring the primers closer to the firing pin.

Not that I know of, but when a revolver is modified to use moon clips they remove metal from the cylinder to make room for the clip. You don't use clips to adjust headspace.

Well the firing pin looks to short. I think I will put a longer one in.

Again, not a good idea. If the pin is too long you might end up with pierced primers.

I don't like the idea of sending the gun back any more then you must. But S&W has the gauges, fixtures and other tools that are necessary to correctly find the problem and use the right solution. Doing anything else is likely to get you into deeper trouble.

[RAS-8533]

Thanks for all the input.
Ralph Stanton

[Troutman]

<<I think that what it says is they guarantee to try to get the firearm back sometime in your lifetime if you have to send it in for work.>>

Oh…No !

After finding this out

http://hsirait.files.wordpress.com/2007/10/customer_service_desk_sleeping_lg_nwm.gif?w=200&h=118

Then one goes to this state

http://business.lovetoknow.com/wiki/images/Business/thumb/5/51/Bad_service.jpg/160px-Bad_service.jpg

Then one wants to write about it

http://images.contentreserve.com/ImageType-100/1069-1/%7BEADFBEB2-468C-43AD-AF85-71CAD0110552%7DImg100.jpg

[btg3]

S&W gave quick service with the revolver and pistol that I returned their Springfield, MA facility. I suppose there could be times where they are busier and it takes longer. Duuno if it varies by location.

[ryan b]

I keep reading they will make it right thats a LAUGH sometimesthey will sometimes not! I am a firm believer that if you buy something new it should work right then but a gun keyholeing new from factory soung like an RG to me if i was buying a lower price say 100.00 i would expect some of that but when i am dishing out 500.00 plus it better work. I have bought and traded guns for years and the only 2 handguns that are suppose to be quility i have had any trouble 1 colt 1911 that was wore completely out and 5 smith and wesson revolvers that have that little lock on them all were in my mind were poor qualityto much mass production and 3 was brand new a model 57 mountain gun went off after the sear did not engage properly they kept saying i had my finger on the trigger or it wouldne go off i sent it in 3 times and they kept saying there was nothing wrong well i found out the problem the machining was not smooth by the trigger and the trigger was not resetting and when the hammer was pulled back the the trigger was engaged and when the hammer was released bingo no sear contact. I pulled the gun apart and immediately saw the problem. if smith is so good how did a hillbilly see the problem when i did. i have a 637 till i can find a older 38 spl but all of my other smiths are excellent handguns and I have never had a problem with any of them i dont think smith is as concerned with quality but more concerened with the bottom line

[GunTech]

I recently sent my 1076 back to S&W for repairs, describing exactly what was wrong. In each case, they sent me a next day shipping label.

The first time they returned the pistol, it took about 5 weeks. Unfortunately, they did not fix the problem.

I sent it back again, and after 6 weeks, S&W returned it 'fixed', and yet it still has the same problem.

Finally, I took it into my local gunsmith, demonstrated the problem (the hammer falls to half cock about half the time when fired).

They looked at it, duplicated the problem and called S&W. Smith now wants them to sent the pistol in to be looked at.

I wonder if I'll get it backed fixed?

[Troutman]

<<I keep reading they will make it right thats a LAUGH sometimesthey will sometimes not!>>

One can’t deny that S&W has great service. One contacts the company, through e-mail or phone. Gets a shipping label (Next day air, paid by S&W) sent to them (USPS). They ship it (through UPS). They take a week for repair (from the time they receive it). It’s returned back to them (Next day air, paid by S&W). Time S&W notifies you….will take 3-4 weeks [repair time].


<<I am a firm believer that if you buy something new it should work right then but a gun keyhole new from factory soung like an RG to me if i was buying a lower price say 100.00 i would expect some of that but when i am dishing out 500.00 plus it better work.>>

I understand. But in today’s world, things are not an absolute. That’s for any product or service for that matter. How to [I] judge things today, is by their “standing behind the product” [company], “customer service”, and “warranty service”. Repairing/fixing it in a “reasonable” amount of time. Where the latter does not work out that way, all the time. The others listed is [for me] must be an absolute.
The cost of the product [leaving out other issues] is not the issue. No matter what you paid for that product. One wants a working product, whether it costs $100 or $1,000.
The difference [to me] is the way insurance companies, as well as the court system [claims] judge value. Depreciation value. Leaving collectors’ value out of it.
Example: All Kel-Tec firearms [I have one] have an expected life of 6,000 rounds or more.
http://www.kel-tec-cnc.com/faq.php

For the sake of argument, the Kel-Tec (new) went for $100.
If I have the gun for three years (shoots 2,000 rounds per year, let’s say). That’s $33 per year (rounding off).
That $500 gun, if I get 15 years (2,000 rounds per year) use out of it I’m ahead of the game.


<<5 smith and wesson revolvers that have that little lock on them all were in my mind were poor qualityto much mass production and 3 was brand new a model 57 mountain gun>>

I have a 29-2. And [leaving collector value out of it] in some ways their better than the new ones, in other ways the new ones are…. better, than the old ones... Depends what specifics, one is looking at.
New technologies’ [manufacturing] are what we’re dealing with today. For better or for worse. The end-user is to judge that.
<<i dont think smith is as concerned with quality but more concerened with the bottom line>>

This is for any company. Any company wants to put out a “quality” product, as best they can. At the same time…… and make a buck. Depends on the [expecting] bottom line and how it’s made [quality wise].
I have a 500 and 460. Paid $899 each, for them. I picked the S&W 500 over one of their competitors, 500, because it was the same price, $899 and had (past) bad experiences with their competitor.
S&W even has some great deals going on right now.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CustomContentDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&content=11001

See Current Promotions.

[Deanimator]

One can’t deny that S&W has great service.
I can.

Because of them, I ended up with a $350-$400 Model 29-2. They damaged the barrel recutting a defective (from the factory) forcing cone.

It took six months and the threat of litigation to get them to replace the barrel (which *I* had to find) and refinish the gun. And while the gun now is better in appearance than when I sent it to them, it's also at somewhere between 1/3 and 1/2 it's current market value without being refinished. The ONLY "fix" was to replace the barrel and refinish the gun... which of course destroyed its monetary value. It's worth less than a used Glock now.

I'm not saying this happens all of the time or even most of the time.

It does happen SOME of the time.

[adweisbe]

You will have earned the right to complain around the fifth or sixth time you send it to them and it still comes back broken. Take it to a real gunsmith who specializes in revolvers. Manufacturers are a good source of parts and that is about it. You need to go custom for the gun to see any quality control at all. We have the drop in part to thank for that...

[grimjaw]

. . . and if they did add the extra QC, the guns would be more expensive and the market would cry S&W was overpriced. It's a market, they're in competition with manufacturers like Taurus and to maintain market share while still making a profit they cut steps. Welcome to a capitalist country.

I haven't had to have work from S&W, but I never trust *any* gun straight away, whether it's new or not. I've seen enough new computer parts come in dead from the factory to know anything mass produced has gaps for things to fall through.

jm

[jaydubya]

I said to Mr. Stanton: I am beginning to think you actually do have an S&W 637. In some ammo, especially in light WC range loads -- or super +p loads -- mine keyholes too. The short barrel of a 637 has trouble stabilizing the bullet sometimes. You must experiment with your ammo to get decent results. For self defense, I recommend Remington 158gr. LSWCHP.

Old Fuff said: Not really. I've gone through a lot of older S&W snubbies, that included various models, and none of them keyholed bullets, regardless of the load.

Old Fuff, I think we can both agree that you have not fired my 637.
Jack

[ArchAngelCD]

Back in post #69 I asked you this question and you either didn't see it or ignored it.
In post #73 I asked you why you didn't answer my post just in case you didn't see it. Again no answer so I'll repost the entire thing...
It seems like you spent alot of time worrying about me. Well I am a trapshooter and I spend most of my time on trapshooters.com. On my post I only put acurrate info (that I can prove). I thought maybe some more shooters might be interested in my experiance with S&W. I own and have owned alot of guns of all kinds.
I guess I am probably weird but when I have problems like these, I am finished with that company. I don't know what I am going to do with the gun, I expect it will be easy to trade off since so many people think S&W is so great.
RAS-8533,
Since you are a Trap shooter can you answer a question for me? If you bought a new shotgun, did all the paperwork and took possession of the gun and then found out there was a problem with the it, would the shop owner take it back and give you a new shotgun?
I don't think this is an unreasonable question and I think it's fairly simple. I would really like an answer or are you ignoring this question because it doesn't fit into your argument?

I'll ask again, would the shop owner take back the shotgun and give you a new one?

[RAS-8533]

If the facts were the same I would expect the same.
Ralph

[RAS-8533]

archangel, keep in mind I didn't ask the shop owner to replace it (they did nothing wrong) I ask the manufacture to replace it.
Ralph

[ArchAngelCD]

OK, then in that case would the Manufacturer replace the entire shotgun if there was something wrong with it or do the same as S&W and request seeing the gun to determine whether or not it is repairable? Do you really expect any company to take your word for it that the gun must be replaced? Any company would want to inspect the product for themselves before they can determine how bad the defect or damage is. I'm sorry but I have never heard of a gun company replacing a gun because of a defect that can be repaired.

[Stainz]

I had put over 8k - maybe 10k .45 ACP rounds through my 4" 625-8 from 9/02-6/04 in steel plate challenge, in which competition I really slurped, when I sent it back due to a closing b/c gap. I had dropped the cylinder & yoke several times in my haste, but always found the yoke screw and re-assembled it quickly. They sent a pre-paid label and I had it back in a week looking/feeling new!

I later sent my 629MG back in a body bag, after dissecting it quite rapidly into pieces it was clearly never assembled from. Their first question concerned whether or not I had ever shot homebrew ammo in it... simple to answer, that was all I ever shot in it. They tested said remnants and told me it was not their fault, but they would replace it for a price less than half the dealer's current price. I didn't expect that - and I got a new gun! Of course, a new SN meant it went to my dealer's ffl, where I picked it up. He shocked me and didn't charge me for the #4473 check or transfer. I never expected to get a new revolver to replace it - especially not that cheaply - the destruction, like the uneven wear on the earlier revolver, was clearly my fault. Great customer service.

Of the dozen new S&Ws I've bought since 'discovering' S&W 9/02, over half, including my pocket 642, have the IL - and it has never been a problem here. More will follow - they make great firearms. The MIM parts are far more uniform and stronger, requiring no hand fitting. They still hammer-forge and heat-treat their parts, rather than cast them like Ruger. My S&W collection will grow - with newer models, while my Rugers are being thinned. Aint choice grand?

Give S&W Customer Service a chance to repair/replace your firearm.

Stainz

[20nickels]

S&W 617 returned today. Barrel has been replaced then test fired, range report will follow. To me this is an acceptable fix with reasonable turnaround time. :)
I believe the previous barrel was a result of their new EDM rifling process which I have found very little information on.

[Old Fuff]

Nothing better then having a good knock-down bloody rant and battle with X-Breath... :evil: :D

Anyway I hold to the position that if someone sells a handgun that's represented and advertised to be a weapon, having it work out-of-the-box shouldn't be an issue. In the past this is something that could be taken for granted. Those that inspected the product were required to leave their mark in the form of a letter or number stamped into the gun. If that gun was returned those inspectors' marks were checked out, and someone could expect to be called in for a discussion concerning their future.

This of course is apparently a thing of the past.

It's one reason I buy older guns (or at least I did, but it's getting harder and more expensive to find repair parts). If they came out of the factory with something wrong it's likely been discovered and fixed before I get it. Those that were the property of larger police departments were usually serviced on a regular basis, and those that were owned by "just somebody" may be lightly used or even not used at all.

While I agree that S&W has, and is, doing an excellent job of standing behind what they make, I hate to think what could happen if someone in an emergency situation discovered their new revolver didn't work like expected.

If I'm worried about this, the folks that run S&W should be more so...

Right, X-Breath.... :scrutiny:

[Thaddeus Jones]

Perhaps S&W is getting the "message".

I recently had a conversation with an executive involved in the revolver design side. He told me that they were very aware of the dislike of the internal key lock, and realized it was costing them sales.

I asked if they would be making, or remaking a revolver without the lock, and he said they were looking at that, as well as a different design, where it would not be so intrusive, or visible. I asked him to put it on the hammer like Taurus, then we could just remove the hammers and throw them away :)

He said to stay tuned, as they were determined to sell as much product as they could. I said I'd patiently await my brand new model 66 3" with one piece barrel, and no key lock.:p