Is the 45 ACP a straight walled case??


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3 gun
November 23, 2007, 02:00 AM
I figured this would be the better forum for this since the real question is about the 45 acp/super case.

I was looking at the hunting regs for Ohio. They say "handguns with 5-in. minimum length barrel, using straight-walled cartridges .357 caliber or larger." I was thinking of using 45 Super. A 230gr bullet at 1100 fps is more than enough to drop an Ohio deer.

The only question; IS THIS INFO CORRECT? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.45_ACP)

Parent case .30-06 Springfield
Case type Rimless, straight

From what I've been able to find on line so far I would say yes, 45 Super in a 5" S&W625 is a legal combo for Ohio deer. A friend says no, the case is tapered.

So bottom line is the 45 acp/super case straight walled or not?

(And before anyone says anything, No I would not think of using normal 45acp to hunt with even tho it might seem to be legal by Ohio law.)

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Iron Sight
November 23, 2007, 02:27 AM
.45 super is not meant to be fired in a standard .45 handgun. It will possibly overpower/damage a standard .45 handgun.

.45 ACP and the Super version are straight cased cartridges, both cases are the same externally but the Super is a special case built stronger to handle larger more powerful loads.

If that's what you are talking about?

SASS#23149
November 23, 2007, 02:39 AM
Looks like the cartridge was made from shortened pistol rounds,not 30-06.

"In 1988 Dean Grennells designed a new cartridge using shortened versions of the .451 Detonics magnum and called it the .45 Super"

I"m sure it would pass as 'straight walled',but should not be shot in a std. 45acp barrel,and not in some pistols with just a barrel change,as was done when created.

for revolvers,I'd not shoot it in one made for .45acp.

I'd be willing to bet that they're wanting to eliminate bottle-necked ammo like the older 38-40's, etc. that are a bit anemic.
'

jacobhh
November 23, 2007, 05:20 AM
I'd be willing to bet that they're wanting to eliminate bottle-necked ammo like the older 38-40's, etc. that are a bit anemic.

Not being familiar with Ohio law, that's tough for me to read out
of context.

That said, I think it means that if you are using a straight wall case it
must be at least a .357 mag but it's OK to use a smaller caliber that
uses a bottle neck (rifle) case ie. a TC Contender in 30-30.

pinkymingeo
November 23, 2007, 05:27 AM
Yes, 45acp and 45 Super use straight-walled cases. You don't really need 45 Super. The heaviest load I use in my 5" is a max of AA9 in autorim under a 250lwfn at 917fps. It will kill a deer. Guys willing to push into +P territory have no problem getting +950.

jmorris
November 23, 2007, 08:25 AM
No, the 45ACP is not a straight walled case but if not counting the rim the difference from top to bottom is only .003”.
http://www.reloadbench.com/popup/cart/219.htmlhttp://www.reloadbench.com/popup/cart/219.html

SDC
November 23, 2007, 08:57 AM
Basically, yes; the reason they make the brass from .30-06 is because the web is a lot thicker, so it can contain a lot more pressure without blowing out at the ramp.

brickeyee
November 23, 2007, 11:11 AM
We treat the .45 as a straight walled case all the time.
Just like a 9mm, .38/.257 we have carbide sizing dies that make the shell a uniform diameter from mouth to the end of sizing.
There are carbide dies for a few tapered cases (mostly rifle), and these STILL require lubrication because of the very large contact area between the die and case when it is fully inserted.
The carbide in a typical pistol die is a small ring only about 0.1 inches high.

CZ57
November 23, 2007, 08:22 PM
Your 625 is not rated for .45 Super pressures.

.45 ACP, 10mm and .40 S&W are considered "straight-walled" even though there is a slight amount of difference in diameter at the casemouth compared to their caseheads. 9mm, on the other hand is tapered. The reason you have to pay extra for some brands of carbide dies is because the 9mm sizing ring must be machined with a taper. Conversely, .38 SUPER does not differ from casehead to casemouth and can be loaded with .357" bullets. I'd bet the Ohio regs have a kinetic energy minimum also, otherwise, the .38 Special would meet the .357" diameter requirement. The straight wall requirement, most likely, is meant to rule out what the diameter requirement does not, i.e. .357 Sig and 9X25 Dillon, both which would exceed the 500 Ft/Lb minimum some states use. It also rules out .38-40 and .44-40 in revolvers. Since the Winchester M1873 and Colt Peacemaker were both chambered for the latter; Peacemakers and later model Winchester in .38-40. More than a few deer were taken with both, firearms and cartridges.

John Browning used the .30-06 (modified) as the basis for the .45 ACP.

pinkymingeo makes a good point. There are several common powders that will push a .45 ACP 230 gr. bullet above 900 FPS: HS-6, 800-X, Herco, Blue Dot and even Unique provided you have the data. Most likely AA#7 and #9 as well. Two more that you may have a bit more trouble finding data for are V-V 3N37 and N350 unless you have the older handload guides.

Maximum range is the real consideration. While it's not for everyone, Whitetail deer are killed with a properly loaded 9mm. Most experts agree that if it is an effective manstopper, it will work on whitetails.

There are a number of threads by Stephen A. Camp in which he's used the 9 X 19mm to take deer (on smaller Texas whitetails). Keeping his shots to a logical maximum distance was the key. The same would apply for a +P .45 ACP except that range could probably be stretched 10 yards or so, although I wouldn't feel real comfortable past 30-35.;)

rcmodel
November 23, 2007, 08:26 PM
Your 625 is not rated for .45 Super pressures.+1 on that!
Don't even consider it!

http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j219/rcmodel/KTOG/1224.gif
rcmodel

Clark
November 24, 2007, 01:17 AM
For $100. Clark Custom Guns reams out the chambers on 25s and 625s to 460 Rowland length, and recommends 40,000 cup [ 43,000+ psi loads].

The 45 Super is 28,000 cup.


The SAAMI drawing of the 45acp case has ~.003" of taper and the 45acp chamber has ~ .005" of taper.

Meanwhile I have built a 45 acp Mauser rifle with no taper, and very tight brass diameter to chamber diameter fit. It does not conform to SAAMI, but is made to be within .001" of the size that brass spring back to when it comes out of a Lee Carbide sizing die.


The 45acp case WAS based on the 30-06 case, which was based on the 8x57, which was based on the 7.65x55 case.
But ~100 years later, cross section a 30-06 case and a 45acp case, and you will see the case head designs have diverged. The 45acp case is thinner and lighter in the case head area.


CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
I have been getting more than 45 Super power with less pressure in an S&W 25-2 with 230 gr Montana Gold FMJ, 24 gr H110, 1.4" OAL, 45 auto rim brass, and Lee Factory crimp. The trick is to use the extra length of the cylinder. When not constrained to the length of a magazine, the ammo can be loaded with a longer OAL, and get more power at less pressure.

BigJakeJ1s
November 24, 2007, 11:13 PM
Sounds to me like Ohio does not want folks using 357 sig or 400 corbon for some reason.

Andy

R.W.Dale
November 24, 2007, 11:18 PM
http://stevespages.com/jpg/cd45acp.jpg


photo courtesy of http://stevespages.com/page8d.htm

as you can see 45acp is clearly NOT a straight walled case

Clark
November 25, 2007, 01:37 AM
Background:
This is from "Handloading" by Davis and the NRA 1981, page 301.
SAAMI chamber is .4796 to .4836" at rear and .474 to .478" at mouth.
SAAMI ammo is .470 to .476" at rear and .469 to .473" at mouth
SAAMI chamber and SAAMI ammo have, then, .001 to .0136" clearance

IMHO
This is a sloppy cartridge and a sloppy chamber as registered with SAAMI.
It could have no taper or reverse taper and meet the sloppy SAAMI drawing.
Carbide dies make for more of a straight wall than a taper.

Test data:
I find that 45acp brass will come out of a Lee Carbide .467" sizing die and spring back to .469".
I made a chamber with a .469" straight fluted reamer, and a 45acp throater READ NO TAPER.
I load the 230 gr FMJ at 1.275" and resize the loaded ammo in the same die.
This compresses the part of the bullet in the case to keep the cartridge at .469" dia.
I have shot a 4" 20 shot group rapid fire at 100 meters with this chambering in a 26" Shilen bull barrel.


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=67852&d=1195974199

3 gun
November 25, 2007, 06:54 AM
Thanks for the info guys. I was pretty sure the acp/super case was straight walled for the meaning here in Ohio. The 45super load I have was sold as being safe for modern revolvers and autos(with a spring change). I've sighted in out to 50yrds with the load and had no pressure or grouping problems.

Seems in Ohio they wanted to keep anyone from using Contenders in rifle calibers, hence the straight walled case and .357 dia wording of the law. No tapered or bottlenecked cases. A Contender in 30-30 or even 45-70 would not be legal to use in Ohio. Sadly as the law is written 38spl would be allowable. :fire:

I have read all of the DNR web site and downloaded the pdf handbook and no where have I found any other requirements as to equipment or calibers. I even looked up ORC and found nothing more. (Hope I have not missed anything :uhoh:) As long as you have a bullet DIA of at least .357, a barrel of 5 inches or more and are not using a tapered/bottlenecked case you are good to go. Ohio does not have a power standard. You can not use a laser sight but optics are ok.

As a side note you ARE now allowed to carry your CCW pistol with you while hunting in Ohio. :)

FieroCDSP
November 25, 2007, 07:09 AM
I've been through the regs many times as a license dealer. In Ohio we have no minimum power factor on chamberings, unless it's very deeply embedded into the legal code and they found no reason to print it the past five years or more.

OP, you may want to contact your county Wildlife Officer to verify that you're going to be legal with 45ACP, and maybe get it in writing from them. When it comes down to it, they (or the ones in the county you're hunting in) are the ones that will haul you in for using it. You might be cleared, but only after legal battles and a lot of money. Ohio DNR likes handing out fines.

I agree that it meets the requirements, but I'm reasonably certain the laws were written to avoid someone killing a lot of trees with a semi-auto spray. Revolvers are the idea they visualized, hence the 357/38 minimum. Again, check on it with the DNR, so there's no confusion.
Also ask if the loaded ammo count (like the 3 round shotgun limit) applies.

jmorris
November 26, 2007, 10:19 AM
Seems in Ohio they wanted to keep anyone from using Contenders in rifle calibers, hence the straight walled case and .357 dia wording of the law. No tapered or bottlenecked cases. A Contender in 30-30 or even 45-70 would not be legal to use in Ohio.

Has me thinking about a contender chambered in .357 maximum or the less exotic 44mag.

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