why do the "experts" like the 870 over the mossberg 500?


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stevereno1
November 23, 2007, 08:53 PM
I have a mossgerg 500, the marines use the 590, so why do all of the civilian "experts" love the 870? Is it better than the 500? if so then why? I don't have a problem with either of them, but I wonder what ya'll think.

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12Bravo20
November 23, 2007, 08:59 PM
I own both and prefer the Mossberg over the Remington. My Mossberg shoulders better and just feels more comfortable to shoot. Plus I like the tang safety of the Mossberg since I shoot left hand. I have put way more shells through my Mossberg.

Heavy Metal Hero
November 23, 2007, 09:03 PM
They are almost the same shotgun. I would go with whatever you like better.

Captain Bligh
November 23, 2007, 09:07 PM
I don't like the tang safety of the Mossberg. Safety on the trigger guard of the 870 makes more sense to me. Seems quicker. Your finger is going in that direction anyway, and can quickly snick off the safety. Involving thumb then finger seems slower. Second thing I don't like about Mossberg is that there is more slop & noise to the fore-end.

If you use a shotgun for any stealthy hunting applications, I find Mossberg a lot nosier.

I'm no expert, didn't sleep in a Holiday Inn Express last night...but I'm just sayin

Ed/Pa
November 23, 2007, 09:11 PM
I think it has someting to do with Steel vs Aluminum.

Ed Ames
November 23, 2007, 09:12 PM
I bought a Mossberg 500A after reading civilian "experts" discussing the merits of each on the 'net. The cost difference was trivial. The arguments for the mossberg feature set vs the 870 were very well thought out. Tang safety, "up" shell lifter, dual extractors, slide release position, etc., etc., etc..

I can't really comment on reliability. Mine hasn't really been fully broken in yet.

sacp81170a
November 23, 2007, 09:18 PM
I use a 590A for my duty shotgun for one simple reason: I shoot lefty. With the tang safety, there's no need to switch the safety around to make it usable. It's dangerous to have 870's in use with the safety switched for left hand use. If another officer picks it up in and emergency, he may think it's on safe when it's not or even worse, off safe when it's on.

There are lots of other reasons like more convenient loading, etc., but the safety issue clinches it for me.

The Deer Hunter
November 23, 2007, 09:20 PM
What makes you think all "civilian professionals" use it? If your basing it strictly on this board, it might just happen to be that more people here prefer the 870.

Dave McCracken
November 23, 2007, 09:27 PM
Steve, the footage from the front shows plenty of 870s find their way to the hot zones, official issue or not.

The 870 is the standard against which all other pumpguns are measured. The 10th million 870 is either made or is about to be made.

That's compared to about 3 million Mossbergs, 2 million Ithacas, 3 million Model 12 Winchesters, ad infinitum.

The reasons include durability. Working life seems to be around 250K rounds. The Mossberg 500 runs maybe 65K. That's no slam to the 500, except for target guns, 65K is several generations of hunting and home protection.

Another reason is reliability. 870s just plain keep on working, even with little or no PM, TLC, or even a hoseoff.

And there's the modular design. No pumpgun is easier to detail strip and deep clean.

Ergonomics play a part. While much is made of the tang safety, the 870 is operable by a 5ft,2 inch tall female with no opposable thumb on one hand and clubbed fingers half as long as normal on the other hand. I know, because I taught her.

I happen to think the 500 is a fine shotgun. I had one, it did all that I asked it to. I prefer the 870,which has been a fine companion since the late 50s.

stevereno1
November 23, 2007, 09:51 PM
Thank you dave, that's the kind of info I'm looking for!

esmith
November 23, 2007, 10:07 PM
They are shotguns. They are both reliable and outside of where the safety is and other miniscule things they do the exact same thing. It depends on how it feels to most people. I personally like the feel of the 870 better as well as how it looks.

nitesite
November 23, 2007, 10:07 PM
First, I'm not an expert.

I cut my teeth on 870s and relied on one every day when I was a rural deputy sheriff in the 1980s. I actually prefer an 870 for its slick action and easier disassembly/cleaning. I have never owned a modern 870 Express, though.

Having said that, the 12-ga I have on hooks inside my master bedroom closet is a Mossberg 590 8+1 with ghost ring sights. It fits me and I shoot it instinctively. The safety position doesn't matter at all as I keep it "cruiser ready" with Federal Vital-Shok buckshot with FliteControl wads that make 00 Buck shoot close to a slug.

I would buy an 870 extended-mag shotgun tomorrow and (after practicing/retraining with it exclusively for a sufficient time) I could switch back to an 870 in a heartbeat. However I have a good reliable GR sighted shotgun that I shoot really well, even with slugs, beyond 50-yards.

I'd be happy with either.

crashalwine
November 23, 2007, 10:26 PM
I'm new here so i'm gonna jump in and put my two cents in. I have several mossbergs from the 500, 695,930 and a 535. I love the all. I started with a mossy and have never had one problem with them. My whole family stands behind them as well as a lot of the guys I hunt with. I definatly prefer them over a 870 , but thats my choice

Z71
November 23, 2007, 10:43 PM
GOSH! I'm going to get lynched! I always considered the Mossberg 500 sort of a second rate shotgun, nowhere near the quality of the 870.

I had owned a Mossberg 500A in the past and it was alright, except the safty was junk, and would occasionaly stick shells in the chamber. My poor opinion of them was the iffy safty mostly, and poor quality control. I have seen brand new Mossberg pumps that were missing parts and assembled wrong right out of the box!

An after school job at an Otasco which sold guns, revealed that the 500 was popular because of price, and some came back quickly with issues. Stupid issues, usually involving the action bars and shell stops being put together wrong, or parts being missing. Other customers loved them. Most of the guy's I knew with the Mossbergs got along fine. But I have repaired two or three myself with broken saftys or non functional saftys.

True, this was a long time back, and Mossberg surely must have improved the safty, and QC issues long since.

I honestly about fell over when I found out the military had adopted the Mossbergs! Never...ever would have thunk it!

I would imagine the "experts" had owned an older Model 500, or knew somebody that did, and arrived at the same conclusion I did, which is that the Mossbergs are OK, but cheaply made.

OK..OK.. Stop boiling the oil! Put the tar and feathers away! I'm firmly convinced Somewhere along the line Mossberg turned a quality control corner and stepped up the quality of the gun. I wouldn't be scared of one now.

An older model 500, would get a safty inspection for sure, and I personaly would not buy an older one again. If you own an older one, would definatly invest in a steel safty button if it has a plastic one, and check the safty for proper function.

Saturnine
November 23, 2007, 10:44 PM
Could the cost have anything to do with the military issuing the mossbergs? The price is negligible to most of us, but when you're buying up thousands of them, the mossberg might be a better deal. They do practically the same thing, at a slightly cheaper cost, and they probably expect to retire them long before their usable lifespan is up.

I prefer my 870, the Mossberg I shot felt like I had a 2x4 held up against my shoulder. I also think it looks a little nicer, but that's irrelevant.

MCgunner
November 23, 2007, 10:47 PM
Probably because the experts aren't left handed and neve tried to load an 870 with heavy winter gloves on.

Crossbolt safeties SUCK for a left handed shooter, just plain SUCK, no other word to describe it. HERE ME, SHOTGUN MAKERS, CROSSBOLT SAFETIES SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Did I tell ya what I think of crossbolt safeties? :D Besides, is there a double barrel out there, either OU or SxS that has a crossbolt safety? Nope, they'fre built for speed. No fumbling with a crossbolt safety, right or left handed. Crossbolt safeties suck. It's cheaper to build a crossbolt safety, no doubt why Remington and others do it. Cheap, cheap, junk. They suck.

I sold my Wingmaster . I've had two Mossbergs. One was a 50s contract "Revelation 310" that was still shooting after I sold it, just wanted a new camo one. I could still be shooting that Revelation, know the guy that owns it, still a good shootin' gun, 50 years old.

Maybe the military wants something without a crossbolt safety. Maybe there are left handed soldiers out there and they need to shoulder the weapon with speed? Maybe the military knows that crossbolt safeties suck?

My 500 has a Winchester load stick in it once in a while. Miffs me off, have to take the barrel off and get it out with my leatherman. It's the ammo, though. I know a lady on another board that has reported the same problem with Winchester Xpert steel loads in her 870. I'm going to switch to Kent Fasteel. I've also, years ago, might have fixed that, had Remingtons hang on the ejection port of both Mossbefrgs I've owned. It was the fact that the loads were too long after firing. Did not have the problem with Federal or Winchester. Haven't used Remington 3" in years now, so it may be fixed. But, I'm still gonna try Kent or just go back to Federal.

BTW, crossbolt safties suck.

The Deer Hunter
November 23, 2007, 10:59 PM
I don't see what this "left hand shooters can't use the cross bolt safety" stuff is all about. I can operate the safety on my 870 fine with one hand(to safe and to fire) without much of a problem. If you are in zone yellow and think you might suffer time wise from switching the safety to fire just keep the darn thing on fire.

Could the cost have anything to do with the military issuing the mossbergs?

It might also have to do with the aluminum receiver. Aluminum doesn't rust, so less rust=less chance of it failing. Although, with a thin coat of oil, my 870 stays rust free.

MCgunner
November 23, 2007, 11:03 PM
I've been surprised enough times by teal low over the grass (I hunt, I don't kill people) and fumbled with that stupid crossbolt safety (they suck) and cost me time, that I hate crossbolt safeties, they suck. I have a crossbolt safety on my Winchester 1400, love the gun, hate the safety, it sucks.

MCgunner
November 23, 2007, 11:08 PM
BTW, you're right, aluminum doesn't rust as bad as steel and I hunt ducks in a salt water environment. The Mossberg also has a very tough camo finish, a salt marsh hunter's dream.

Also, that danged shell elevator gets in the way of reloading on the 870, pinches the end of the glove, ties you up, it sucks, too.

And, crossbolt safeties suck.

I don't see a problem, anyway, with an aluminum receiver. It works just fine on the gun, doesn't carry the stress of firing in any way since the bolt locks into the barrel.

sacp81170a
November 23, 2007, 11:17 PM
MCgunner:

CROSSBOLT SAFETIES SUCK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

C'mon, why don't ya tell us how you really feel? :D

Blue Brick
November 24, 2007, 12:18 AM
Mossberg is

1) Lighter
2) Tang safety (Better for the wife or in a hostile situation), Push to Fire, pull back for Safe
3) Easy to field strip (No tools)
4) Less expensive
5) Better consumer value packages (Combo’s)
6) Drilled and trapped receiver
7) 5+1 magazine capacity (some shotguns only have a 4+1 round magazine)

MarshallDodge
November 24, 2007, 12:25 AM
I am really used to the safety on the Mossbergs.

I started my shotgun life on a used JC Higgins shotgun (lots of issues) and then went and bought one of the Mossberg combo kits with the 26 and 18 inch barrels. It served me well for many years and then I got a Browning Citori so it sat collecting dust as a defense only gun.

I came across a really good deal on a Mossberg 590A1, made the purchase, and a short time later I sold the combo kit. It has been a good gun so far and with about 250 rounds of target loads it has had zero failures.

This year I picked up the Benelli....with a crossbolt safety! I guess I can always re-learn! :D

DAVIDSDIVAD
November 24, 2007, 12:27 AM
The steel vs. Aluminum argument is ridiculous.


The only real problem that could arise out of it would be that the aluminum could buckle.

But, it's a receiver.

on a shotgun.

It's not an arm on a machine.

GigaBuist
November 24, 2007, 01:01 AM
I don't like the tang safety of the Mossberg. Safety on the trigger guard of the 870 makes more sense to me. Seems quicker. Your finger is going in that direction anyway, and can quickly snick off the safety. Involving thumb then finger seems slower.

Interesting. We seem to approach the 870 two entirely different ways.

I don't like the idea of a safety requiring dexterity to unset, and if you're trying to move the safety on the 870 with the trigger/index finger I think there might be a better way.

Try this: Grasp an 870 as you were going to release the slide with your index finger on the slide release. The palm will cover the trigger guard area, and guess what? Your thumb, or in my case the base of the thumb, the dumbest part of your hand, can mash that safety into the fire position. Given that I keep my 870 in Condition 3 this is how I bring it into action.

Or, you could just let your thumb ride down over the tang onto the right side of the shotgun after chambering a round and let it hit the safety. Either way, it works, and it involves "dumb" motor control instead of the fine motor control needed to direct your index finger to the safety button.

birdbustr
November 24, 2007, 01:27 AM
Mossberg's are OK, and I wouldn't be afraid to use one, BUT I wouldn't buy one. For close to the same money I prefer the 870.

Personal preference is a large part of it. In forming my opinion the First impressions of the Mossbergs in the 80's were that they were cheaply made as said before. Later shooting clays I shot a friend of mine's model 500. It worked fine, but no way was I going to trade my 870 for it. Later I used them again in the military. Again, they worked, they were hell to clean, and I wished I could have had an 870.

Mossberg-The only plus is the safety and a few dollars saved. Big deal, the 870 safety will work too.
Remington-Proven track record, easier to clean, Action is smoother/more solid feeling, looks more appealing and is my choice between the two hands down.

Navy joe
November 24, 2007, 08:40 AM
Aluminum doesn't rust, so less rust=less chance of it failing.

Huh? Doesn't rust? As in doesn't produce iron oxide because there is no iron in it? I'll buy that. However it CORRODES like nobody's business. With good surface protection it will be fine, get a corrosive agent, like salt water, inside at uncoated wear areas and see what happens.

Aluminum v. Steel is the issue. As Dave noted the 870 may see 4 times the service life. I can't think of any alloy framed firearm that lasts as long as the steel counterpart.

MCgunner
November 24, 2007, 09:45 AM
Well, my old Revelation is still going. I know, while I owned it, it hunted HARD every season and did doves as well. That's before I got my Winchester. It's something around 50 years old now and still going strong, never needed service in MY hands. So, I guess that's not long enough. 4 times that will get ya 200 years of service. Since I don't plan on living 200 years, the Mossberg's other virtues will win ME over. And, I mean, it's still a good gun. It ain't wore out, yet. Even if it only lasted 25 years, buying a new shotgun every 25 years ain't hard to justify considering how hard they get used firing heavy 3" loads and playing in the salt water.

Ir I wanted a steel receiver, I'd get a Browning, because the BPS has no shell elevator in the way of loading and it don't have that stinkin' crossbolt safety, which sucks. I love the BPS action, too, smooth right out of the box. My Mossberg is well broken in, though, with 20 years of use.

ruger357
November 24, 2007, 10:27 AM
Have owned both, liked the 500 but love the 870. I traded my 500 18 years ago for a 870 and have never looked back.

MCgunner
November 24, 2007, 11:07 AM
I've owned one wingmaster and shot 870s others owned. I've never seen the worshippers of the 870 like seem to be on this board. They have always been considered cheap, but effective pump guns, like the Mossberg, amongst my friends. It's an NEF that shoots more than once. Most of my friends hunt with other brands, Benelli, Browning, Beretta, Franchi, and such. Most are duck hunters/dove hunters, about all there is around here other than quail. Quail hunters prefer twice pipes, as do I for that type of hunting. I've used the 870 and my 500s in the marsh just because they're cheap and effective and you don't really want a nice shotgun in the salt marsh. Replacing a POS 870 or 500 isn't a big deal compared to replacing a Citori or something when it gets too rusty to look at. My camo finished Mossy has held up rather well for 20 years now, though, very tough finish. A couple of my friends love their 835 ultimags, but I don't need no stinkin' 3.5" gun.

All this 870 worship and it wasn't even designed by John Browning.....Amazing....:rolleyes::D

October
November 24, 2007, 12:11 PM
The reasons include durability. Working life seems to be around 250K rounds. The Mossberg 500 runs maybe 65K.
What's the source of this information?

Striker
November 24, 2007, 01:15 PM
This is beginning to sound like a 9mm vs .45 ACP debate.

In addition to what Dave has already mentioned I'll add the following: 870s are available in a wide variety of specific models for most any shotgunning need you might encounter. WM, SP, Express, Tgt TB, Target Skt, TGT SC, HD, Police, Marine, and proabably a half dozen other models that I'm forgetting. (Ever see a dedicated off the rack 500 Trap or Skeet gun? :rolleyes:).

I prefer an 870 over a 500/590, and a Ford over a Chevy too, for whatever that's worth. You ask my opinion and that's what I'll tell you, with no need to apologize. I have broken a 500 (maybe it was a lemon) but I have never broken an 870. But like I said get what you want, because I wont denigrate your choice. But I'll always have a spare 870 to lend out if the need arises. :D

I've never seen the worshippers of the 870 like seem to be on this board. They have always been considered cheap, but effective pump guns.....

Price an 870 Wingmaster Deluxe or TGT TB trap lately?

Quail hunters prefer twice pipes, as do I for that type of hunting....

Depends on where you hunt I guess. Me and most the guys I hunt with, prefer a quick handling pumpgun (870 Special Field or Ithaca Featherweight) for tight holding birds over dogs.

Bottom line though is get what you like and BA/UU/R....

Regolith
November 24, 2007, 04:57 PM
Probably because the experts aren't left handed and neve tried to load an 870 with heavy winter gloves on.

That's funny. I'm left handed, and seem to be able to operate the cross bolt safety just fine. Hell, switching it so that it would "work for a lefty" would screw me up, because I'm so used to using cross bolt safeties on right handed guns.

I don't seem to have any trouble loading it, either. Heavy winter gloves or no.

I handled both the Mossberg 500 and the Remington 870 when I was trying to choose between them for a shotgun. While I do prefer the slide release of the Mossberg 500, that's about the only thing I liked about it over the 870. The 870 was more solid, smoother, and pointed better for me. So that's what I bought.

amprecon
November 24, 2007, 05:03 PM
I have owned my 12 gauge 870 Express longer than any other firearm I have. Almost everything else I've had has been sold, traded, rebought, resold, etc., etc. But I have never had a reason to do that with the 870, it has been the quintessential pump shotgun for me.

My huntin' buddy used the Mossy, I used the 870, he killed things, I killed things, they both worked. He liked his, I liked mine. I didn't want his, he didn't want mine. They are both good shotguns, if it's what you get and you like it, it'll be what you keep.

I went shopping for a shotgun at K-Mart a long time ago, in Virginia Beach as a matter of fact, of the different offerings they had on display, I liked the looks and feel of the 870 and it came home with me, eventually. I had to put it on layaway because the Navy didn't pay enough for me to buy it outright at the time.

Same for my hunting rifle, when I went shopping for one, I picked up the Winchesters, Brownings, Tikkas, Weatherbys (although I couldn't afford those two), Remingtons and Savages. I liked the Remington and it went home with me and all was well in my universe.

throdgrain
November 24, 2007, 05:12 PM
My huntin' buddy used the Mossy, I used the 870, he killed things, I killed things, they both worked. He liked his, I liked mine. I didn't want his, he didn't want mine. They are both good shotguns, if it's what you get and you like it, it'll be what you keep.



Amen :)

RyanM
November 24, 2007, 05:34 PM
However it CORRODES like nobody's business. With good surface protection it will be fine, get a corrosive agent, like salt water, inside at uncoated wear areas and see what happens.

Aluminum corrodes since when? Try putting some salt water in an old pop can. See how many centuries it takes before the can starts leaking. And that's with a paper-thin can. Maybe you're mistaking dried salt deposits for corrosion.

Aluminum oxide sticks to the metal underneath, and protects it from further corrosion. It's also considerably harder than pure aluminum, and protects the metal from scratches. It's like if steel naturally "rusted" into black iron oxide (bluing) rather than red oxide. Anodized aluminum is purposely "corroded" to a greater degree, so that the oxide layer is thicker, mostly for scratch resistance.

Anyway, I like Mossbergs better. Tang safety (I'm right handed, too, but I still hate crossbolts), elevator won't pinch thumb, lighter, action lock lever is easier both to reach and to push, and there's no lock. I will never own a gun with a lock on it, even if it's just a range toy.

Dave McCracken
November 24, 2007, 05:46 PM
October, the 65K estimate was from a couple of the smiths that post here. The 250K is from common knowledge among trapshooters.

Lots of 870s in trap grades are out there. Few have ever worn out, even with six digit round counts. Around 250K, the receivers start cracking around the ejection port.

And again, both of these FINE shotguns have plenty of happy owners.

If all I had was a Mossberg pump, I'd still be well armed....

And MC, back when I did 3 gun, weak hand shotgun COFs saw me hit the thing with my thumb, and some of my times were as good as when I shot from the right side. More practice would have improved it further, IMO.

MCgunner
November 24, 2007, 09:20 PM
Range shooting is one thing, Dave. You're expecting and ready for the shot. You're not ankle deep anchored in mud, gun in the crook of your arm, checking your watch when the bird comes flying in over the grass. Well, you get the idea. Hunting is not the clean environment that games on the range are. Neither is combat, I would imagine.

It may be that I've used the tang safety on my old double until they passed the steel shot laws, then got a Mossberg with a tang safety. I'm just so used to it. But, I really prefer it to the crossbolt on my Winchester which requires cradling the trigger guard in my hand while I reach under and kick the safety off with an index finger. The tang, I can kick it off with the thumb as I shoulder the weapon, much faster and requiring much less fumbling around.

If I see the bird coming and have time to kick that safety off before the bird sets into the deeks, I have time, but sometimes, many times you get surprised.

Yeah, cold wet thumb shoving a round up into that 870 hurts like hell when it pinches. Many times I've yanked my thumb out before the round clicked into the magazine, cussing, and it shot under the shell elevator tying up the gun. I'd have to dig out my pocket knife and work the shell back into the magazine. Do it with heavy gortex/thinsalate gloves on and it pinches the loose end of the glove finger and you have to work it down and get the glove out, irritating. I've found neoprenes work a little better, but not always effective, either. D

Duck hunting is cold and wet. I don't shoot skeet, I couldn't care less about clays, I hunt ducks. These are birds that live in the marsh an the season is in the winter when, even in south Texas, it can get cold. That's what I do with shotguns, I hunt ducks and geese. Okay, doves, I hunt doves, too. The crossbolt safety is less of a pain on doves because if I ain't half asleep, I usually see the little buggers comin'. And, the shell elevator is no big deal because dove hunting is in September and October when it's 90+ degrees down here and my thumb isn't numb from the cold and I'm not wearing gloves.

I may get a BPS someday, but in 20 years I haven't even close to worn out the Mossberg. Figure I may hunt 10-12 days a season, maybe, fire maybe 15 rounds average between geese and ducks. Even if you do a couple of dozen dove hunts with the same gun, how long is it going to last at that rate even though I'm firing 3" magnum heavy steel shot exclusively in the gun? I dove hunt with either my Winchester or one of my side by sides, only use the Mossberg for waterfowl. The Winchester is a gas operated auto and that's nice on my shoulder when I'm burning up rounds on dove. Most shotgunners, hunters anyway, don't see 250K rounds in a lifetime even if they shoot a round of clays now and then. We're not all Olympic trap and skeet champions. Most of us just shoot birds.

Actually, if I replace that 500 for waterfowling, it'll probably be with a Mossberg 935, tang safety, ya know. Crossbolt safeties suck. Did I mention that?

Dave McCracken
November 24, 2007, 09:43 PM
MC, I've been known to have my boots buried in cold swamp up past the tops while I thumbed more shells into divers 870s.

Individual physiognomies differ. I've never gotten the pinch you mention and had been using 870s extensively for more than 20 years before being told they could be jammed with a shell behind the carrier.

And there's still some shells out there I dropped. Neither the safety nor the carrier caused that. I did, through utter clumsiness. Had I a Mossberg, it still would have happened.

As for lasting, I'll wager the usual flagon of mead that most shotguns get less than 5K shells through them. Think about it.

Dove season opens, and the flat of shells you bought still has a couple boxes left when the season closes. Pheasant season sees less than two boxes worth and the same for ducks.

A couple sessions of pasture clays see another 200 shells fired.

A good season, less than 500 rounds used. But that's out of a 1400, a pair of SxS bird guns and less than 50 rounds through your Mossie.

At that rate, your grandkids may find the Mossie getting a little loose....

dstorm1911
November 24, 2007, 11:32 PM
Neither...... Win 1300 Deffenders, the Mossy tang safty becomes a liability if fitted with Enidine Shot shock (mercury recoil buffer collapsable stock tube) and pistol grip and collapsable stock for use with body armor, same problem with the Knox cop stock in either case ya must remove your hand from either the pistol grip or the slide to activate/deac the tang safty no such problem with crossbolt safties........

The thread was in regard to military choice for a scattergun (at least through the references to the Marines choosing it) last I knew the military seldom use their scatterguns for shooting clays or quail or ducks when considering a shotgun so every point made so far regarding these situations would really have absolutely no bearing upon the question posed whatsoever...... if your not setting up the Shotty for use in a combat type scenario then ya would have nothing to contribute regarding ergonomics etc... as it applies to strictly trap/hunting experience only

Now if your discussing actual combat environmental variables, combat ergonomics issues, combat related reliability issues then you would be in line with what the OP requested in way of information......

The one issue I have concern with in regards to an aluminum recievered shotty is the same issue with an aluminum recievered carbine or rifle (and remember I prefer yet another al. recievered scatter gun) The effects of abrasives such as sand inside of the reciever (I live where they torture test military vehicles/weapons Arizona as our sand is the most abrasive available in the USA) it will effect an aluminum reciever faster than it will a steel reciever if neglected creating galling and excessive clearance issues, the military in Afghanistan and Iraq don't spend much time in swamps so reliability or usability would be of little concern there, not much salt water time either so that issue is off the table, they do however spend alot of time in sand....

Cost has little to do with anything purchased by the military afterall look at the main battle rifle we have fielded.... when a super low cost AK variant is actually better suited to the battlefield we are predominantly fighting in these days, yet we are still fielding a MBR that costs 12 times as much as whats needed so I doubt a $5 difference per gun is going to carry much weight however what does carry some weight is the standard requirement for a manually operated AMBIDEXTROUS SAFETY its the very first requirement for all small arms submitted for trials its one of the things that kept Glocks and XDs out of the trials for a sidearm and as the Mossy is the only game in town with a truly Ambidextrous Safety makes it the instant winner , switchable etc.. isn't a concern it has to be universally Ambidextrous as far as durability testing 5,000 rnds without failure is it... well within the limits of the Mossy especially as all the competitors in the pump gun arena are out of the running over a mechanical Ambi safety issue right from the start.. its also WHY if ya go back to the 70s when they first developed the 590 (simply a militerized 500, reinforced reciever, bayo lug, extended magazine otherwise its the same gun) they were approached by the military in the first place because of their Ambi safety being the only one on the market

tdultima
November 25, 2007, 12:11 AM
All advantages are subjective.

Mossberg 500 advantages:

1. The "only" pump action shotgun ever to pass all U.S. Military MilSpec-3443E standards. The Remington 870 was not submitted to the military for the trials.

2. Tang safety.

3. Dual extractors.

4. "Anti-jam" elevator.

5. Simple fixed ejector.

6. Aluminum receiver is lighter and doesn't rust.

7. Low price.

Remington 870

1. Steel receiver is stronger.

2. Quality is higher with Wingmaster/Police (You get what you pay for).

pete f
November 25, 2007, 01:33 AM
my problem with 500's are the attachment points of the action bars to the little ring that the forearm is attached to.

They fail, more than you realize, but they fail, if you get one with a good rivet job or spot weld, they last a long time, but I have seen many fail.

I have never seen a moderately clean 870 fail. I have seen some come in with so much gunk in them that the ejector finally breaks, but thats an easy rivet job and the guns back working in a day. If you keep the area behind the ejector clean, it will last darn near for ever. I have seen 870's at the half million mark, as well as a few 1100's that old, and after you see that, you go OK, they got the design right.

Mossbergs just feel clunky and cheap in my hands.

sm
November 25, 2007, 01:53 AM
Not an expert.

First off there were no Mossbergs around when I was coming up.

I grew up with Winchesters and Ithacas. Remington came much later around my neck of the woods.
My buds in 'Nam used Ithaca 37, Win 97 and Model 12s.

My serious home and competition guns, I/we removed safeties on purpose on many , and we ran hot ranges and 3 Rules of Gun Safety were adhered to.

Now I personally prefer the safety location on a Win over a Rem.
This is what I grew up with, top tang were for double guns like SxS, O/U, and Dangerous Big Game Rifles.

Lots of safeties removed on Shotguns that broke open, we competed and hunted like this...again 3 Rules of gun safety...
First damn thing we always did/do was take care of automatic safety on break open guns...

Mossberg: only damn Mossberg I recall growing up, was a pistol.

870s are fine, then again I have no problem with a Win SX1 , or Beretta 303, gas gun ...

...or a Youth Single Shot 20 ga, which is what I do keep handy with slugs...

I run a gun stock, I do not want any accessories, just how raised, what you do.

wideym
November 25, 2007, 07:02 AM
I was amazed when my unit was depolying to Iraq that the supply sgt went to Walmart with a GSA credit card and purchaced several Mossberg 500As for us. They worked well, expeceally with the abuse they get from urban military ops. I've had a few 500As in my life, they were cheap and well made, but the guys I got them from usually wanted to trade up to 870s.

My uncle gave me a 500A that was given to him, it had been left out doors for a few months, had the barrel sawn off to 18 3/4 inches(luckily), was missing the buttstock, and the forearm was broken. My cousin had a spare set of stocks and forearms(no cost) and Woody at Bullseye leveled the barrel, added a front sight bead, and re-blued the barrel, magazine tube and barrel screw for $40.00. Today is shoots like a dream.

While the same cousin's 870, he had new since age 10, ejector broke and had to be sent to Remington for repair. The repair was free but he had to pay for the shipping and the dealer.

Personally I see very little differece between the two. Each is pretty reliable and inexpensive, which is all that counts.

1911 guy
November 25, 2007, 09:00 AM
I prefer Mossberg. They're a bit lighter, load easier, can be easily unloaded without cycling every round, the safety is positioned for right or left hand use and they point better for me.

ronto
November 25, 2007, 10:23 AM
In addition to all the advantages of the 500 already mentioned, the 870 front site is pressed in and inorder to change it you have to drill and tap a new hole...not to mention the PIA of getting the factory site out.
The 500...just unscrew the old one and screw in the new one.
I don't care about brand names and you can make any shotgun "fit". I base my decisions on practical useage and can see no real advantages of the 870 over the 500.

Creature
November 25, 2007, 10:31 AM
Had both, sold the 870. Kept the 590. Mossberg, IMHO is slightly better engineered of the two. Should have kept the Rem though as a backup.

MCgunner
November 25, 2007, 10:54 AM
Original post.

I have a mossgerg 500, the marines use the 590, so why do all of the civilian "experts" love the 870? Is it better than the 500? if so then why? I don't have a problem with either of them, but I wonder what ya'll think.

Response



The thread was in regard to military choice for a scattergun (at least through the references to the Marines choosing it) last I knew the military seldom use their scatterguns for shooting clays or quail or ducks when considering a shotgun so every point made so far regarding these situations would really have absolutely no bearing upon the question posed whatsoever...... if your not setting up the Shotty for use in a combat type scenario then ya would have nothing to contribute regarding ergonomics etc... as it applies to strictly trap/hunting experience only

So, um, he says he has a 500 and the marines use the 590 and he wants to know why CIVILIAN "experts" like the 870. Where, sir, do you take it that this question is about military use of the Mossberg "shottie". Do you think the second amendment is about the rights of the National Guard, too, just because it says "A well regulated Militia"? And, do the marines really use a pistol grip stock? :barf: And, does the military refer to the shotgun as a "shottie"?

"This is my rifle,
this is my gun,
this is for fighting,
this is for fun"

CajunBass
November 25, 2007, 11:08 AM
I bought a Sears/Mossberg back in '75 or '76, mostly because it was cheap.
$99.00 with two barrels. I think the 870 was about twice that back then, but can't say for sure. Of course back then there was no such thing as an 870 Express, just the top of the line model. I've never been disapointed with it. I haven't put thousands of rounds through it, but I used it mostly for deer hunting with buckshot, (never fired the slug barrel to this day) and it did it's job. It's killed ever deer I ever shot at with it, along with a few squirrels, and even a few doves. It's never malfunctioned or had anything at all go wrong with it.

I like the top tang safety, especially at first because I was coming off using a double barrel with a tang safety, but never had any problems with the crossbolt safety on a few Remington 1100's I've owned over the years, or more recently on my Ruger 10/22, or another Sears 200 (Winchester) pump gun I've got. The safety is where the safety is. I'm not left handed, but my Uncle is, and he never had any trouble with the safety on his 1100's or at least I never heard him say anything about it.

I'm no expert, but I like the Mossberg. I suspect I'd like an 870 too if I ever feel the need for one. I'd like to have one in 20 ga.. But another Mossberg would do too.

Big Az Al
November 25, 2007, 12:08 PM
The first shotgun I bought for myself is a Browning A5, as was the last.

Using almost forty years experience working one firearms, I lean towards the 870, now to make people scream, if it were in production today(maybe it is was or could be) a close second behind the 870 would be tied up with the Moss.500 and the Ithaca 37.

As a smith, I see slightly more moss 500's in for repair then 870's, 37's a somewhere in between.

The ussual Moss 500 repair will be safety related, with some version of the top tang safety breakage being the #1 repair, although the end of the trigger that works on the safety is another common repair. With the slide arm I see more mossberg slide arm repairs then for the 870 but it is a small number and the Moss repair is easier.

As for repair parts Mossberg and Reminton, are readily available, and there are few variations to be awere of.

Someone mentioned the Win 1200/1300 series, you don't quite have to know the day it was made to get correct parts, but it would help! There are many variations on just the ejector, at least two variations of bolt, and I have seen some of the strangest(at least compared to the rem and moss) breakages of parts and assemblies in the winchester series then in my top 3 combined!

Avenger29
November 25, 2007, 12:51 PM
I own an 870, and have run a Maverick 88 (the cheaper version of the 500)

I prefer the 870. While the Maverick with the standard stock didn't feel too bad, I did get to handle a 500 "Homeland Defense" model. It had the extended mag, cheap collapsible stock, optics rail, and some kind of muzzle brake or flash supressor. One of my dealers had two in.

That 500 just felt like a light toy. My 870 feels like a real weapon. I much prefer my 870- it just feels more solid and has less wobble.

If I was going to get a Mossberg, I'd definitley get a 590 variant.

They are both good shotguns, and I'd love to see a design that brought together the best features of both:

1) The safety and action release of the 500/590
2) The shell elevator of the 500/590
3) The steel reciever of the 870
4) The modularity of the 870
5) The "solidness" of the 870
6) The barrel attachment of the 870- I don't like the way the 500 barrel
attaches.
7) The twin extractors of the 500
8) The fixed ejector of the 500
9) And of course, the low price of the 500, with the 870 Police quality...

MCgunner
November 25, 2007, 01:10 PM
They are both good shotguns, and I'd love to see a design that brought together the best features of both:

Hmm, BPS, tang safety, retracted shell elevator for easy loading, steel receiver, smooth as butta, don't remember the slide release position on it. Definitely, if I were going to spend the money on a "high grade" 870, I'd go Browning. Of course, I'd get a camo gun.

jad0110
November 25, 2007, 03:08 PM
This and other Mossie 500 vs Remington 870 threads remind me of the S&W 686 vs Ruger GP100 debates over in the Revolver forum. The lock vs no-lock debate even comes up from time-to-time. I guess that's why a few THR members state they would buy either a new Mossie or used Remington (pre-lock).

I've spoken to enough owners of both makes that I've concluded that either will work fine, just pick what fits best. The S&W 686 worked better for me, so I chose it. The GP100 is still an excellent gun. Like the GP100 vs 686, the 870 may last a bit longer shooting "atomic" loads, but I don't plan on shooting massive amounts of that stuff through my revolvers or shotties. At this point, I'm leaning towards a Mossberg 590 for HD. The control layout and the ergonomics just fit me better than the 870, though I can certainly see why people like their 870s so much. I did however pinch myself years ago loading an 870 once (a wingmaster, I believe), so that did influence my decision a bit too.

True, this was a long time back, and Mossberg surely must have improved the safty, and QC issues long since.

From everthing I have seen, that appears to be the case. As a side note, the range I frequent rents an old Mossberg 88 Maverick. I asked the owner about it and he guessed it has at least 100k rounds through it with nary a glitch. This is just one example, but thought I'd share it.

I was surprised that the Maverick had a crossbolt safety; I thought all Mossberg pumps had a tang safety. BTW, I am with MCGunner on crossbolt safeties ;) .

Fred Fuller
November 25, 2007, 03:08 PM
Number one thing, I'm no expert. An expert is a has-been drip under pressure, or somebody with a briefcase who's over a hundred miles from home. :D

Number two thing, you can shoot whatever you want. No skin off my sitter whatever you shoot, brand or type. Your money, your choice- good luck with it.

Pumpguns? I got pumpguns. Mossbergs, Browning, Stevens, Ithaca, Winchester, Remington. I've been shooting pumpguns for almost 40 years now. I LIKE pumpguns. They are an almost uniquely American phenomenon. They are looked down on by bespoke best gun toting titled aristocracy in Europe as "shooting machines." And I like that. Plenty of plain ol' blue collar Americans with pumpguns get a lot more enjoyment out of their time afield than any collection of Eurotrash bluebloods.

It just happens that I am convinced the Remington 870 is the pinnacle of American pumpgun design. I have messed about with most of the offerings on the market, and the 870 tops everything so far in my book. Dave McC ran through a pretty good catalogue of the reasons in his post, no need for me to duplicate them here.

The 870 has a few more age spots and wrinkles than anything else on the market right now as far as pumpguns go. Oh, I know the Chinese are making copies of the old 1897 thumb-buster. That doesn't count, any more than that they are making a knockoff of the 870 (or the Ithaca 37 for that matter). The 870 design has been in production by Remington since early 1950. If it was newly introduced today, the design would still be revolutionary.

The Mossberg 500 hit production in 1961. It's a workmanlike design and has its own set of good features. No one who owns one has anything to complain about. Still, IMHO it just isn't the gun the 870 is.

The main thing for me is that the 870 is so much easier to maintain. It field strips simply and gives easy access to anything likely to need attention. Jumble up the magazine spring on a Mossberg 500, and you have to take off the magazine tube to get to it (a design flaw corrected with the mil-spec 590 series, I might add).

Neighbor's kid came by on the way home yesterday afternoon. He'd been up the road potting doves in a newly-planted wheatfield, and complained that his gun was stiff and hard to pump. Well, he'd gotten the 20 ga. youth model 500 for Christmas a couple of years ago. I don't think it had seen a drop of lube since.

Handiest thing I had was a little fliptop bottle of SLIP 2000, so I dripped a few drops on the bolt races and action bars and racked the gun a few times and gave it back. He pronounced himself satisfied but wondered if he should take it apart for a good cleaning. I advised him against it, since the left shell stop almost invariably falls out when the trigger group is removed. I didn't want him wondering what went where when he got back to reassembly.

A working gun should be tough, reliable, easy to clean and maintain. That's the very definition of an 870 IMHO. That's why I like 'em better than any other design out there. About the only thing you can do to take down an 870 for the count is to crunch the magazine tube- then it needs factory level attention for the fix (which is why us oldpharts keep telling noobs to use clamps on their magazine extensions.) Almost everything else is a relatively simple fix.

870s are the Energizer Bunny of pumpguns. They wear IN, they don't wear out. Most American law enforcement agencies buy 870s when they need shotguns. They are easy to clean, easy to fix on the rare occasions when they break, easy to shape-shift to fit whatever task they need to perform (from breaching to birds to grizzly bears to burglars). They're my favorite, pure and simple.

Hope that helps,

dd

MCgunner
November 25, 2007, 03:29 PM
Actually, my grandpa's version of the "all American shotgun" was the Parker and especially the LC Smith. He used to talk a lot about LC Smith shotguns and the one he had. He had a Wingmaster 20 gauge at the time. But, if you go back before the war, WW2, in America, the side by side was the king of the sporting guns. And, I can pull the barrels off my side by sides in a few seconds. I never took a receiver apart, though, don't really wanna do that. I have an old Sarasqueta Spanish built 12 I bought new in 1971. It's been through hell and back from about 1971 to 81 shooting 3" goose loads and banging around in boats and I've never had a problem with it, though it's beat up looking now, sadly, because it was a fine looking gun when it was new.

So, my vote for easy to clean is my side by sides. One of 'em's a Remington.......Spartan, okay, maybe that don't count. It's definitely a working man's gun, though, not something English aristocracy would be interested in, ROFLMAO!!!!!

This thread has been quite enjoyable. Folks might think I'm serious, but I really just prefer the Mossberg and enjoy the argument. 870s have been around forever and they shoot fine if you prefer 'em. I really don't want one. In pump guns, I would enjoy a BPS and an Ithaca featherweight, okay it's got that dreaded crossbolt safety, but I have a spot in my heart for one someday. I'd want a 16 gauge just like my uncle's I used to borrow.

Zach S
November 25, 2007, 04:07 PM
I think its the fact that an 870 is pretty much an 870. I think there are some differences in the police 870s though.

You can buy an 870 at wal mart, and get anything you need out of brownells to make it the ubertactical wet dream of any mall ninja. The only thing you have to worry about is bbl finish and caliber. Mossberg has four different mag tubes for their 12 guage guns, and they all use different bbls.

Remington's use of one mag tube (or two, if the police models are different) for the 870 makes it cheaper to make parts to fit it, therefore the 870 has more aftermarket support, therefore its more popular to buy. I couldnt count how many time's I've seen mossberg lose a sale to remington because you can add capacity to the 870, so I think that aftermarket support has a direct effect on it.

Its the same with cars. The most popular cars at your dragstrip are either imports, since their aftermarket exploded after the fast and the furious came out, and of course Mustangs and F body GMs, since these were the first affordable cars that got fast during the 80s when Detriot was learning how to make horsepower with the emissions requirements that they didnt have 20 years before.

And to add to page one, I also hate crossbolt safeties. If I was right handed, that might no be the case. Since I'm wrong handed, I prefer my mossberg, mainly due to its tang mounted safety.

Regolith
November 25, 2007, 10:29 PM
I guess that's why a few THR members state they would buy either a new Mossie or used Remington (pre-lock).

Remington stopped installing the J-Lock safeties about a year ago. :D

Now, if only S&W would take the hint....

jad0110
November 25, 2007, 10:40 PM
Remington stopped installing the J-Lock safeties about a year ago.

Now, if only S&W would take the hint....

Ah, I do recall that now ... thanks for the gentle slap upside the noggin. Wasn't like that was the dealbreaker for me, I just prefer the feel of the Mossie.

Yeah, I too wish Smith would pick up on that little hint.

McGunner,

I too have enjoyed reading this thread. Very informative, and I'm glad it has stayed polite and civil.

vindicator5
November 26, 2007, 12:41 AM
I am a memeber of an US Army repair team (SARET-R Small Arms Readiness Evaluation Team - Repair) I have encountered hundreds of Mossberg 500 shotguns that have been used in combat and they are holding up with excellent colors, There are very few (codeouts) weapons that can't be repaired. the most common failures are non authorized parts (1) bead sight broken(2) and the safety missing the detent ball (3) barrels damaged from being shot too close to hinges or locks (4) (barrels get split muzzle or bulged barrel from this.) While I would agree that other brands of shotguns look far superior in construction, I would say that most have not been submitted to blowing locks and hinges off of doors. most of these 500's show very poor operator maintenance and still function properly completely filled with Iraqi sand. (be it all not very easily)

I bought a Mossberg 500c for my kids many years ago and it held up to numerous abusive encounters during hunting, when the boys were hunting.

For the price the Army can't beat them they come with a pistol grip, non vent rib barrel, sling, cleaning kit (wich very few soldiers use in my opinion) and other accesories included in the box. for as far as repair goes it actually cost more to repair one than to throw it away and replace it. The Army pays around 150.00 for each weapon with the accessories

I still love my 1100 and 870 Remingtons but I will also be using my mossberg 500 for many years to come.

Robert E. Boulanger
BTW most soldiers seem to worry more about loosing a Mossberg 500 than their M4 or M16A2 which are more easy to get ahold of. and some of these are obviously wal-mart (civilian versions) from their serial numbers. (Army contract purchased 500's have US before the serial number civilian purchased don't.

FireArmFan
November 26, 2007, 01:50 AM
I own the 500 and I've shot the 870. Both are nice shotguns and the only reason I like the 500 more is because I am left handed. The fact that my dad has a mossberg somewhat influenced my choice for a shotgun too i suppose.

chieftain
November 26, 2007, 02:43 AM
I have never seen a moderately clean 870 fail.

Interestingly enough I have seen a couple fail in combat and several while hunting back in the 60's. The 870 used to have the ability to "double Shuck" shells. In fact at one time Remington split the lifter so the shooter could use his knife blade to get the extra shell out. At the time they considered that as a model improvement. I didn't.

While hunting your weapon jamming is a PIA, in combat it was deadly. The good news is there weren't many Remington 870's in Vietnam. I personally never used a shotgun, but some around me did. They would trade out the Remington as soon as possible. Get a Savage, Winchester, Ithaca (my favorite of the time), Stevens, and some earlier model Remingtons too. I don't ever remember seeing a Mossberg 500 over there either. I liked the solid brass shells we used over there too.

The safety switch on the Mossy is a problem. I use a 590 now and replaced my safety switch with the less than $10.00 solid steel one sold by Brownell's right after getting the gun. That was a bunch of years ago. Prior to that I would just use one of my side by sides.

I have heard that Remington has finally made the 870 safe for combat. I don't know when they finally fixed them, but I presume they have.

Remington's are pretty and they feel good, but I have always considered reliability as the singularly most important aspect of any fighting firearm. For play or sport, it doesn't really matter. Besides I prefer side by sides for sport.

I don't march to the guns anymore. But I stick with my old reliable 590 and doubles. The 590 ain't fancy it only goes bang everytime the trigger is pulled.

Go figure.

Fred

stevereno1
November 26, 2007, 07:10 PM
I love my 500. it is clear that they are both fine weapons. I am going to get an 870 soon. I also plan on testing the so -called greatness of the ar platform, with a S&W mp. happy hunting!

351 WINCHESTER
November 26, 2007, 09:53 PM
I have a mossberg 500 which is just fine. It was free so what the heck.

If I were to buy a new shotgun I'd opt for the 870. I just wish it had the mossberg safety - located where it should be.

ReadyontheRight
November 26, 2007, 10:11 PM
I lean toward the 870 over the 500 because I have seen used Mossbergs at gun shows that had a broken safety. I have heard it's an easy fix, but I have never seen a broken 870.

As far as the safety location goes, I do not TRUST a safety, so I never use it. On any gun.

If I am in a situation where I don't think I can maintain trigger discipline, I simply take the round out of the chamber. It's pretty simple to reload a pump gun.

ReadyontheRight
November 26, 2007, 10:30 PM
They are both good shotguns, and I'd love to see a design that brought together the best features of both:

Hmm, BPS, tang safety, retracted shell elevator for easy loading, steel receiver, smooth as butta, don't remember the slide release position on it.

It's difficult to find aftermarket parts for the BPS. The slide release is on the back of the trigger gaurd, but it is like the Winchester 1300, not like the Mossberg. It doesn't stick down far enough, so you HAVE to use your thumb. With the Mossberg, you can reach under with your trigger finger OR use your thumb.

Oh - and the BPS is made O.U.S. 870 and 500 are and always have been made in the USA.:)

vindicator5
November 27, 2007, 01:02 AM
chieftain, I would have to agree with you on the 500's safety, my 500 suffered the safety malfunction, that is so very common to the mossbergs, and numerous 500's I have repaired have also been afflicted with the safety detent ball escaping from the weapon and rendering the safety near useless.
The army safety has a metal slider but the parts of the safety are exactly the same (the civilian purchased 500's have the plastic slider and the team always converts them to the metal slider), Mainly I think the use of the thin metal plate with the detent holes that is under the slider may be the culprit once the slider screw becomes loosened and helps the detent ball to get moved out of place and freed to the the world it gets lost into LOL.

The one way screw I think also helps in this as most people tend to ignore tightening it, I tend to lock tight this screw when repairing the 500's for the Army as dead safeties on a combat weapon make me very nervous and our soldiers have enough to worry about without having a safety become erratic un-necessarrily. Unfortunately I see very few 590's. I think price and availability may have something to with that.
Robert

rantingredneck
November 27, 2007, 01:38 AM
I have and shoot both. If I ever fell on hard times and had to sell shotguns off to eat the first to go would be the Mossy's (2), followed by the 870's (3). The Remington 31 would never leave my hands though......

wideym
November 27, 2007, 04:35 AM
Does Mossberg still make a 590 with a bayonet lug? I had one back in 97' or 98', but a guy in my unit offered me $500 for it and I couldn't resist(only paid $250).

03Shadowbob
November 27, 2007, 09:21 AM
I had both shotguns (500 and the 870). To me the biggest difference was the fit and finish is better on my 870 than the 500. I sold the 500. When I rack the slide on the 870 it just feels more solid compared to the 500. Other than than, the 500 is a fine shottie.

Zach S
November 27, 2007, 10:43 AM
Does Mossberg still make a 590 with a bayonet lug? I had one back in 97' or 98', but a guy in my unit offered me $500 for it and I couldn't resist(only paid $250).
Yes. Mine was about $350, maybe $375 OTD NIB (had him order it for me). I then proceeded to grind the lug off so I could mount a surefire fore end.

MCgunner
November 27, 2007, 04:40 PM
I lean toward the 870 over the 500 because I have seen used Mossbergs at gun shows that had a broken safety. I have heard it's an easy fix, but I have never seen a broken 870.

As far as the safety location goes, I do not TRUST a safety, so I never use it. On any gun.

If I am in a situation where I don't think I can maintain trigger discipline, I simply take the round out of the chamber. It's pretty simple to reload a pump gun.

All fine and good when it's sitting in your bedroom, but for hunting, you need a safety. Deer hunting, you REALLY need a safety. What do ya think a deer is going to do when you rack the slide? :D Not everyone kills people with a shotgun. I do keep one in the bedroom for home defense, and it is fully loaded with the tang safety on safe. Be slow to load a coach gun if I left it empty.

I never had a problem with the safety on my two 500s. I suppose if you dropped it on the safety , it might break. It could fail, I reckon. If it does, I'll fix it. If I have a problem with the detent ball, I'll just hold it forward while I draw a bead on senior pato, then fix it when I get home.

ReadyontheRight
November 27, 2007, 05:28 PM
All fine and good when it's sitting in your bedroom, but for hunting, you need a safety. Deer hunting, you REALLY need a safety. What do ya think a deer is going to do when you rack the slide?

I do not use a safety when hunting either. If I am still hunting, standing in a deer stand or sitting on the ground hunting for deer, I have a round in the chamber and my finger off the trigger. If I am climbing, walking in thick brush, coming into camp or if I come upon someone in the woods, I take the round out of the chamber.

I see no need for an "in between" because I do not believe that any safety is truly safe, so why trust it for anything? There is a big exception here with pistols like a 1911 where the robust thumb safety is integral to carrying safely.

To each his own, but I just wanted to point out why the issue of the safety location between the 870 and 500 does not matter to me.

SoonerSP101
November 27, 2007, 05:34 PM
I bought my Mossberg 500 from Wal Mart the day I turned 18. I turned 40 two months ago in September-07. LOVE IT!!! SIMPLY LOVE IT!!!

MCgunner
November 27, 2007, 06:47 PM
My uncle's (married my aunt) brother was climbing through a fence and didn't put the gun though first and the trigger caught a twig. They found him 3 days later with a hole in his back and exit out his chest. Yeah, he didn't put the gun though the fence first, should have unloaded it, and should have had the safety on. You can't be too safe.

I use a safety, I keep my finger off the trigger, AND I am trigger aware. You cannot be too safe with a firearm, there is no such thing as too safe. The safety is just part of the redundancy of safe gun use IMHO.

I'm afraid I wouldn't wanna be in a duck blind with someone that didn't use a safety, either.

1man
November 27, 2007, 09:28 PM
My personal experience with both push me toward the 870 over any Mossberg.

I used the Mossberg when I was in the Corp(before the War, got out Dec. 2001);
1. Fleet Marine Force Infantry - mainly used for Humanitarian Aid Missions(less-than-lethal purposes for crowd control) and sometimes door breaching.
2. SOTG Direct Action Platoon - mainly used for door breaching.

When I was in the FMF, my junior Marines had a hard time reassembling the Mossberg after cleaning it(setting the bars back in place to get the bolt assembly in). Most of the time, I had to put it back together for them. Especially for them, the Remington would have been easier to field strip and clean. The Mossberg works. For me, I love then Remington better. My buddy had a Mossberg fail on him. I just witnessed a 870 have problems locking up(after round went off, hard to rack a fresh round), he's a gunsmith and never seen that happen before. He said he was going to swap barrels to see if it is something out-of-spec in the chamber area 1st.ANY GUN CAN FAIL!

davekno
November 28, 2007, 11:59 AM
all this discussion about the mossberg, is anyone out thetre interesdin buying a mossberg stainless steel 12 ga with 20' barrel and bothe the shoulder stock and the pistol grip. Fired about three times to test. . I had it on my boat for protection but no longer have a booat.

rantingredneck
November 28, 2007, 05:14 PM
List it over in the for sale section and I'm sure you'll get some hits.

evan price
November 29, 2007, 04:34 AM
I prefer the Mossberg over the Remington, but I like my Winchester 1200 Police better than my Mossberg. I prefer the Maverick 88 cross-bolt safety over the 500''s tang safety. It's the same as the Winchester.

MCgunner
November 29, 2007, 09:47 AM
is anyone out thetre interesdin buying a mossberg stainless steel 12 ga with 20' barrel

Wowsers, with a barrel that long, that baby has to reach out there, uh? :D

j/k

Navy joe
February 19, 2008, 02:34 AM
I had said in response to a poster saying the aluminum reciever was superior because it would not rust:
"Huh? Doesn't rust? As in doesn't produce iron oxide because there is no iron in it? I'll buy that. However it CORRODES like nobody's business. With good surface protection it will be fine, get a corrosive agent, like salt water, inside at uncoated wear areas and see what happens. "


November 24th, 2007, 05:34 PM #35
RyanM

Aluminum corrodes since when? Try putting some salt water in an old pop can. See how many centuries it takes before the can starts leaking. And that's with a paper-thin can. Maybe you're mistaking dried salt deposits for corrosion.

Aluminum oxide sticks to the metal underneath, and protects it from further corrosion. It's also considerably harder than pure aluminum, and protects the metal from scratches. It's like if steel naturally "rusted" into black iron oxide (bluing) rather than red oxide. Anodized aluminum is purposely "corroded" to a greater degree, so that the oxide layer is thicker, mostly for scratch resistance.



Old thread, but I had to say. Don't know where you've been but I've been fixing aluminum helicopters, some with boat hulls. They corrode. Big time.

What will happen with an alloy shotgun and corrosion is one of two things. The oxide layer will eventually form and wear steel parts or you will get an electrolyte(blood, sweat, salt water, pee, beer, etc) in the internals and it will do its part to establish a galvanic cell between the aluminum reciever and the steel bits inside it. Lubes and oils displace electrolytes and prevent this. A surface treatment such as anodizing can prevent this. Wherever moving parts are in the action the surface treatment will be gone. Not saying an Al shotgun will turn to grayish-white dust in your hands, just that they are not magically impervious to corrosion as was originally suggested.

Far more likely to have the Al reciever just plain wear out from use than corrode to death. There is not an aluminum gun on the market that will last as long as a steel counterpart.

The more I read back in this thread the more I like my Ithaca 37. :D

foghornl
February 19, 2008, 08:31 AM
Kinda like the Chevy/Ford/Dodge/9MM/.40/.45 debates, eh?

I prefer the Mossberg/Maverick..."Fits" me better outta-the-box. However, if the Rem/Win/Ithaca fits you better, there you are.

Ash
February 19, 2008, 09:24 AM
Aluminum does corrode. However, the Mossberg receiver holds up to water much better than the 870.

My first pump action was an 870 and it killed many ducks and a few geese. I liked it just fine. I then picked up a Western Field branded Mossberg 500 (gasp, a single action bar model!). It was chambered for 3" shells. I shouldered it, worked the safety while raising it up to the shoulder, did all sorts of drills with it and realized I preferred the 500 to the 870. The safety works just the same way as my Savage 333, the stock fits me, and the action is smooth.

I bought the 870 because of the steel receiver. But the receiver developed rust in a few patches, which irritated me because I do keep them oiled. The barrel did not develop any rust. It worked just fine for me, but after trying out the Mossberg, I was hooked. Both of my Mossy's are Western Field versions, one is a single bar, the other a double bar. The single bar is now older than 30 years and it still runs great.

I used to dismiss the safety argument, but for me at least, the Mossy safety is easier to use when rising up on ducks.

Ash

BruceRDucer
February 19, 2008, 10:01 AM
Both pumpguns looked good to me.

I was considering both at purchase time.

The fact that the Marine Corps (Semper Fidelis!) used the Mossberg Pump suggested that at least the Mossberg would be okay. I was willing to consider that the Remington 870 could be a gun of fine quality also.


The Mossberg's "plus" features for me were:

Dual Extractor, the refined Shell Lifter, Aluminum Receiver for lightness, the Tang Safety.

[You'd think that in a gun forum like this, some Senior Member might address the issue of the CROSSBOLT SAFETY versus TANG SAFETY with some clear comments, rather than all this wishy-washy "mellow-speak" but I guess political correctness counts for something!"
:neener::neener::neener::neener::neener::neener:]

The Remington 870 and Mossberg 500 look like adequate guns to me. I did learn one new thing that might be relevent. I take the experienced shooters at their word that the Remington is easier to strip and clean. That might have swayed me toward a Remington 870 had I known. I bought the AGI DVD on Disassembly/Assembly etc.

But I'm happy with the Mossberg, and should be into reloading soon. This forum is really the best on educating us about good gear.

**********************************************


[Don't nobody ever call me stoopud. I am ...."otherly-gifted" ] :neener::neener::neener::neener::neener::neener:

Eagle1899
February 19, 2008, 08:11 PM
Given the choice, 870 all the way.

plexreticle
February 19, 2008, 08:12 PM
Many of the so called experts get paid for their opinions.

TCB in TN
February 19, 2008, 10:22 PM
I have owned both, hunted and shot with both and I don't have a real problem with either of them. Now that said I have a Mossy 500 loaded with 00 buck for home protection, but were I to have an 870 I wouldn't feel to upset about it either.

BTW I ain't likely to be shootin 65K rounds through my shotty, much less 250K or the like. I just want my shotty to be reliable under my type of normal usage, IOW sit loaded and waiting until I have time to run a box of shells through it for prac, or sit loaded waiting until TSHTF and I need it! Both do that well enough for me.

asknight
February 19, 2008, 11:18 PM
Just remember that the Marines have the 590 because Mossberg was the low bidder... :neener:

BruceRDucer
February 19, 2008, 11:31 PM
"Just remember that the Marines have the 590 because Mossberg was the low bidder..."--asknight

Oh yeah? Just remember THIS:

Marines get the job done. SEMPER FIDELIS Gear aint all that big a deal. It's the will to overcome the limitations of the gear, anyday.

JShirley
February 19, 2008, 11:31 PM
I prefer the Mossberg safety. I have a Ghost-Ring Cyl bore, Parked. The only mod I've made was swapping out the incredibly long factory synthetic stock for an Outers Cadet. I put some Moly lube on the action bars, and pumped a couple of hundred times.

Fits me perfectly, now. I've seen Mossbergs used in my infantry company, and I've seen them used in ODA (SF) camp, along with other SGs.

At the same time, I agree that the 870 usually seems to have less rattle. Also, the used 870 I bought for Byron's birthday a few years ago was probably the smoothest slide-action I've ever felt. :)

John

Ceemack
February 20, 2008, 01:32 AM
[You'd think that in a gun forum like this, some Senior Member might address the issue of the CROSSBOLT SAFETY versus TANG SAFETY with some clear comments, rather than all this wishy-washy "mellow-speak" but I guess political correctness counts for something!"
I'm not a "senior" member, but having spent plenty of time with both guns I'll address it. The tang safety on the 500 is slightly easier to use than the crossbolt safety on the 870. But the safety is of only marginal importance on a shotgun; personally, I never use them. The most important control on the gun is the slide release. I have always found the slide release on the 500 to be in an extremely awkward location. The 870's slide release is much faster and easier to manipulate.

The other thing to remember about the safeties is that the one on the 870 tends to stay attached to the gun, while the one on the 500 has a distressing habit of flying off. Replacing the safety button or some of its parts (like the little tiny detent ball) is probably the most common repair on a 500. It's only held in place by a screw, and when that screw works loose you can kiss the safety button goodbye. It takes five parts to replace that safety if everything comes off the gun (actually, the detent spring will most likely stay put, so you probably won't have to buy more than four).

If you've got a 500, be sure to tighten that screw periodically.

As for dual extractors, it's a good thing it's got two of them. That way, when one breaks (as they are wont to do), you've still got one good one. The problem is, the design doesn't work that well with only one extractor. In my experience the 870, with only one extractor (like the 1911, Mauser 98, etc., etc.) suffers far fewer extraction problems than the 500 does. The one extractor on the 870 is just designed better than the two on the 500.

If you've got a 500, keep the chamber nice and clean. They can be prone to pitting, and if that happens keep a cleaning rod handy to punch out the empty shells that won't extract. You'll also want to stay away from the Winchester bulk packs from Wal-Mart, because they tend to stick in the chamber and the 500 will really struggle with them (they're sticky in 870s, too, but I've never had to punch one out of an 870). The Remington and Federal bulk packs are OK.

Ash
February 20, 2008, 07:02 AM
Hmm,

Not to start a flame war, but I think the tendencies you mention are not. The seem more like pretty big exaggerations. I have never, ever encountered Mossberg's with pitted chambers, and that includes the ratty ones you encounter at the pawn shop. I have also never had my safety screws become loose. Indeed, I just checked them both because of this thread and they are both still tight. I have never messed with them. I have also never had a problem with extraction. Again, if this were a problem I would encounter a bunch of said ratty Mossy's at the pawnshop with broken extractors, but I haven't.

I will agree that the plastic safety switch is much maligned, for good reason. I have one with a metal and one with a plastic. The plastic had not broken, but I have seen them broken. One should not have to plan to replace a part like that. The good thing is that replacement metal switches are cheap. They should not be needed, though.

However, the slide release on the Mossberg is generally considered easier to operate than the Remington. I can do it with the shotgun on my shoulder without any problem, one handed, with my trigger hand. It may merely be personal preference, I admit, but the three pretty universal draws for the Mossberg are the safety location, the slide release location, and the shell-lifter design.

As to not using a safety on a shotgun, no offense, but I would never want you in my duck blind or walking in the field with me if you refuse to use one. I'd rather not have BB or T shot blasted into my ear, or have my foot or leg shot off during a rabbit or quail hunt. I mean that with no insult, but on our hunts, the safety is used. If you won't use one, you don't hunt with us.

Ash

Marshall
February 20, 2008, 07:38 AM
I have an 870 but if you walk into pawn shops and look at the shotgun racks, you'll see used Mossbergs that have been shot quite a bit, in pretty darn good condition. They're not the prettiest but they seem to be workhorses.

jack the toad
February 20, 2008, 08:28 AM
In my limited experience, Mossys are ok and have some features that make sense; ie, the tang safety is the same for leftys and righties. Although being right-handed, I prefer the cross bolt safety.
I also own a Beneli Nova that I like but I still prefer the 870.

Dave McCracken
February 20, 2008, 09:01 AM
RE Crossbolt vs tang safeties....

First,I've never EVER run across an 870 with a broken safety. Some 500 Mossbergs do have the plastic button bust.With metal buttons so widely available, this is but an annoyance.

As for ambidexterity,pushing the crossbolt off with the thumb when operating sinistrally (LH) and on with the left index finger can be mastered in 10 minutes of use by all but the most clumsy.

Third, I find the slide release on the Mossie harder to find,but I've not had 50 years of frequent practice with that system. The Remington release is quite easy to find, hard to activate accidentally, and as reliable as the rest of the weapon.

Finally, both weapons are good. Try them out, get the one that FEELS best....

41magsnub
February 20, 2008, 09:31 AM
Besides.. southpaws are abominations before nature and should not be pandered to, instead forced to learn to shoot right handed like the normal folk!


/ducks, runs, giggles

Dave McCracken
February 20, 2008, 09:33 AM
41, you've been hanging out with sm, huh?....

chieftain
February 20, 2008, 12:47 PM
Just remember that the Marines have the 590 because Mossberg was the low bidder

Errrr... not exactly.

Actually the Mossy 590 won a shoot off, which included the Remington 870. Simply put the Mossy didn't break, the Remington did. IIRC it was 3000 rounds. It is that fact thingy that keeps getting in some peoples way.

Of course in an earlier post in this thread I reported my combat experiences with the 870 in Vietnam in the 60's. No body wanted them. Now they are supposedly fixed or better. My 590 doesn't require a replacement yet, so the point is moot, for me. With that said, the night sights on my 590 do need to be replaced. they are about 17 years old.

The other thing to remember about the safeties is that the one on the 870 tends to stay attached to the gun, while the one on the 500 has a distressing habit of flying off. Replacing the safety button or some of its parts (like the little tiny detent ball) is probably the most common repair on a 500. It's only held in place by a screw, and when that screw works loose you can kiss the safety button goodbye. It takes five parts to replace that safety if everything comes off the gun (actually, the detent spring will most likely stay put, so you probably won't have to buy more than four).

I don't know about the rest of you guy's, but I bought the steel safety right after getting the 590, locktited' the heck out of it, and have never had a lick of problems. Where I learned my weapons maintenance we called it PREVENTIVE MAINTENANCE.

But frankly I do that with all my fighting weapons. Every weapon has a weak spot. If you know about it, and a fix is available, what kind of person doesn't fix it before it fails?

DUH!

For the record, the shot gun next to my bed is a "coach" gun. Legally Short, double barrels and a couple of "dog ears". It is real reliable.

Go figure.

Fred

contender
February 21, 2008, 02:23 PM
Well, I'm a lefty and have had some experience with remington and mossberg in the hunting fields and in police work.

The position of the safety to me is just personal likes or dislikes. As a lefty, I have had no trouble with the location of the safety on the 870. A man trains and gets accustomed to dealing with what he has on hand. If this was such a big deal in the location of a operational part of the gun, then left handers would avoid most semi-auto pistols like the plague as far as decockers on the sig line and slide releases on the majority of the rest as they were designed for the right hand man.

And right handed single action revolver shooters would be up the creek as far as the position of the loading gate.

So I ain't buying into the left hand right hand thing.

Mossbergs--a bargin as far as price. The safety as issued is the weak point and should be replaced with a metal one---that will cure 99% of the gripes I have encountered with the mossberg. Most officers also are like gorilla bagage handlers. The mossberg receiver will get scratched all to heck and back but thats cosmetics. The wood on the mossberg was apple crate and not good quality compared to the remington---but everyone seems to be going to plastic stocks nowadays so that may no be an issue.
Never seen a broken extractor on a mossberg but I have seen ejectors missing from becoming unscrewed.

Seen remington 870's with very rough chambers right out of the box and had to be polished. Only broken parts replaced on the 870's i've seen where the extractor---and then the guns were abused in the hunting fields for years and never properly taken care of. Seems the 870 is smoother but I have had more feed problems with the 870 than the mossberg.

Either will do for hunting or defense. Given a choice, I'd rather have an older model ithaca. Not for any paticular technical advantage----just because is enough.

Ceemack
February 21, 2008, 02:47 PM
Actually, it doesn't matter whether the safety button is metal or plastic...either way, they're still just held in place with a screw. The one I just replaced was metal.

Loctite is not a bad idea, but the geniuses at Mossberg have decided to make the screw a one-way screw--you can drive it in, but once it's tightened down it's mighty hard to back it out again. Makes it a little tough to put it in once to test the fit and function, then back it out and apply the Loctite.

I've never had to polish a chamber on an 870--never seen one, even an Express, that didn't have a mirror-bright bore and chamber. I have had to polish a chamber on a 500. This was a used gun, but the bore was smooth enough and the rest of the parts in good enough shape that neglect is not a likely explanation. The grotesque tool marks on some of the internal parts indicate the manufacture may not have been all that careful.

I've never worked on a 590, so I don't know much of an improvement it might be over the basic 500 design.

As for safeties while hunting...I would use one in those conditions, and not find the tang safety substantially more convenient than a crossbolt (a crossbolt safety is slow to apply, but quick to take off). A tang safety is easier for lefties, or shooters with short fingers. I suffer from neither condition.

But I wouldn't want to hunt with anybody who relied on a safety to keep him safe.

In my experience, seeing recent-manufacture 870s and 500s shooting side by side, the 500 is more prone to malfunction, more prone to breakage, and generally not built as well as the 870. If you really feel like you need to buy a 500, be aware of its weaknesses and stay on top of them.

Ash
February 21, 2008, 02:59 PM
I would be very nervous hunting with a guy who doesn't use a safety. Any man who sits in a duck blind with a shotgun not placed on safe is not safe to hunt with. Or, do you keep your shotgun unloaded until the ducks fly in?

Ash

Cosmoline
February 21, 2008, 03:04 PM
I love the Mossy 500. The 870 is OK, but the safety is absurd for anyone who has to go cocked and locked. A wee switch you can't even see. The tang safety is far superior. For bear country I'd never want an 870.

Also, I've found the Mossy 500 to be amazingly tough. I remember after one particularly active salmon fishing season I cleaned it out and found about two cups of silty sand in the action from its repeated dunkings in rivers and creeks. It still functioned fine.

As far as life expectancy, I can't comment. The Remington may well be better suited for shooting clay targets and such. For me the shotgun's sole purpose is to deliver an enormous slug of lead very quickly. Whether it will last 100k rounds shooting for fun is totally irrelevant.

while the one on the 500 has a distressing habit of flying off.

Really? I had one breakage from landing on rocks, but the safety still functioned even then and it was a very easy fix. I've never seen a Mossberg safety "fly off," and I've pumped the most powerful 12 ga. slugs made through it over and over again. The recoil from the high end Brenneke magnums is intense, and if the thing was going to fall apart it would have.

If they could make an 870 in stainless with a tang safety and a slugster barrel I might go with one. Otherwise I'll stick to the humble Mossy Swede.

sm
February 21, 2008, 03:44 PM
Gun Fit.

Just me, still gun fit is something that needs to be considered.

There is a difference in a civilian being able to choose one, and being Issued a shotgun.
Police, Military, Correction Officers, Armored Guards for instance are going to be issued a shotgun, be trained in its MOA, maintenance and protocol.

These guns are NOT going to have some safeties flipped where a left handed person pushes one way and other guns are left as factory right handed safeties.

Training is going to mean if you are left handed, you will run the issued gun as it was issued.
It does not matter if top tang, forward on trigger guard, back of trigger guard, or "suicide" safety - inside the trigger guard.

It does not matter if you like a certain gun, or safety postition, you will train and have to pass qualifications with that issued shotgun.
Even that PGO issued to Armored Car Guards.

Expert??

Who cares??

Just because the Military Issues Playtex bras and Hanes Sports Bras and Panties does not mean I am going to run out and buy a a dozen of these.

I know damn well just because I wear Fruit of The Loom briefs, John Shirley's gal is not going to show up wearing these if I were to assist her in shooting skeet too.

Silly?

Hellno.

Shotguns are dangerous tools, and with any tool, especially a dangerous tool, one would be wise to get what fits them, as a civilian and get what fits them, and get quality instruction and continue quality practice.

Issued by a Dept, one is wise to pay attention, follow protocol, know that MOA and qualify and maintain qualifications "at least" and on their own, be the the best they can with whatever issued, even if they personally hate the damn thing.

Re: Safety is between the ears.
Anything can and will break, and Mr. Murphy prefers to do this, at the worst possible time.

I and mine removed safeties on purpose on shotguns we competed with.
Serious shooting and we removed as much "anything" that might fail.

This was legal and allowed. We NEVER had an accident, never!
WE that knew each other used the same guns to hunt with, ducks, doves, quail.

NDs IME/IMO were just that Negligent.
Name a gun, platform, and safety position and one has ND-ed.

Mossberg, top tang, crossing a fence...it was not unloaded first.
Rem 1100, jumping a ditch, it was not unloaded before jumping.
Bennelli Eagle ND-ed shooting skeet, nervous first time shooter.
Kreighoff, Perazzi , these also had fingers in trigger guards, when shutting a trap house door, or picking up a soda can that blew off a bench onto field.


Money Gun is a nickname for a 870 28ga. It has around 300,000 rds through it.
It has extra barrels, parts and all including trigger groups.
Most of its rounds have been fired with the trigger group, without a safety.

We shared this gun for serious pump gun events, and doubles.
We have felled ducks, doves, and quail with this same gun too, without a safety.
Me and my kind that shared this gun.

We had a 1300s in all 4 gauges too, and again in 28 ga for serious pump gun events, the trigger group used had safety removed.

-
Point being, it does not matter what anyone else uses.
It does matter what fits each person, and how they are trained and competent in the use of shotgun.

John Shirley is damn good at what he does. He Prefers a Mossberg with top tang and reduced recoil slugs.

Lee Lapin is damn good, he prefers 870s.
His wife, is damn good and it would blow your minds as to her training and she trained using Mossbergs.

Dave, 870s

Okie and 311s in 20 ga

Body Guard I know, Ranger, Ithaca 37 is what he used in 'Nam and preferred for his BodyGuard and his personal home, travel gun, hunting shotgun.

Are these experts? They will say "No".
What they are, is one with the gun they have chosen. This is the key.

I guarantee you tell John Shirley, Lee Lapin, his wife, or Dave, or Okie - "Here is a Ithaca 37 in 20 gauge and this what you have to know" - and they will become one with that gun in short order.


Focus on the target- not the equipment - Will Fennell

Software - not Hardware.

Fred Fuller
February 21, 2008, 08:26 PM
Errrr... not exactly.

Actually the Mossy 590 won a shoot off, which included the Remington 870. Simply put the Mossy didn't break, the Remington did. IIRC it was 3000 rounds. It is that fact thingy that keeps getting in some peoples way.

Umm... Chieftan?

I think maybe a little more homework might be in order here...

http://www.tacticalshotgun.ca/content_nonsub/shotguns/compare_870_590.html

snip///Mossberg 500s and 590s are typically marketed as the "one pump action shotgun...heavy duty enough to pass...Mil-Spec 3443E, a brutal and unforgiving torture test with 3,000 rounds of full power 12 gauge buckshot". Referring to the US Armed Services shotgun selection trials that eventually lead to the adaptation of the Mossberg 590A1 by the armed forces in 1987, from what we here at tacticalworks.ca remember this claim is misleading to say the least. It is true that the mossberg was the only shotgun to pass the endurance trials, but what they neglect to tell you is that Remington didn't even bother to enter a gun into the trials.///snip

It's been a while since that contract deal anyway- it was 1979, according to a handy copy of Small Arms of the World (12th Ed., 1983, p. 179). There's been another contract competition since then- and it was awarded to Benelli, for a semiauto design.

lpl/nc

Caipirinha
February 21, 2008, 09:06 PM
I have a 590 and a 870. Both are good guns but if I could only keep one, it'd be the 590. I prefer the overall feel and ergonomics of it.

Regolith
February 21, 2008, 09:11 PM
A wee switch you can't even see.

I think I'm sensing a bit of...what's that word? Ah yes, hyperbole.

Seriously guys, its not that freaking hard to use a crossbolt safety. And if you have to look for the damn thing, you haven't used your gun enough. I can switch the thing off by feel, and usually during the same motion that I raise my gun, AND(!) I'm a left hander. If I can do it, surely the rest of you can too. :scrutiny:

makarovnik
February 21, 2008, 09:20 PM
Does the 870 have a steel receiver compared to a Mossberg'saluminum receiver? My Mossberg kicks pretty hard.

Regolith
February 21, 2008, 09:33 PM
Does the 870 have a steel receiver compared to a Mossberg'saluminum receiver?

Yes, the Remington's receiver is steel. Great for strength, but it makes the gun a lot heavier than the Mossy. The lighter weight is one of the things going in the Mossy's favor. Though the heavier weight of the 870 likely dampens recoil better.

Brian Dale
February 22, 2008, 08:20 AM
I like the fit of my 870. I've handled 37s that felt good to me, too.

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