Walther P22 Slide Failure W/Pics.....


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Slvr Surfr
November 23, 2007, 09:39 PM
Tonight I went to the range. I've had my Walther for about 2 years now. I bought it used. I have put less than 500rds through it. I primarily use it for a range gun. I like to practice the basic fundamentals with it.
Tonight I was on my 6th magazine when the slide came off the back of the gun and smacked me in the cheek. I couldn't quite figure out what had happened until I noticed the slide on the ground. I then looked at the gun and noticed a small portion of the front of the slide was still on the gun.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/helas_9/P22/015.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/helas_9/P22/016.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/helas_9/P22/020.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/helas_9/P22/021.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/helas_9/P22/022.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/helas_9/P22/023.jpg

Just in case anyone asks, I wasn't shooting any hot .22 ammo. I was a cheapo brick of Winchester .22 range ammo.

I tried a brief search of the Walther, and SW forums to see if anyone else had has had a failure similar to mine with their P22.

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Ragnar Danneskjold
November 23, 2007, 09:43 PM
check rimfirecentral

steak-knife
November 23, 2007, 09:50 PM
:what:YIKES!!! Hope you're okay.

I was actually going to get one of these, but my local dealer talked me out of it because he had more returns on these P22s than any other firearms sold from the shop, mostly because of FTF/FTE problems. He basically said they were made out of pot metal, and I didn't entirely believe him until now, after seeing your catastrophic slide failure.

From what I've read through the threads, the SIG Misquito is also poorly built and problematic.

trueblue1776
November 23, 2007, 10:07 PM
I seen pictures of that type of failure before, it sucks, but it's pretty rare from what I understand.

doc2rn
November 23, 2007, 10:34 PM
Usually with catastrophic failure of this type informing the company will get you a new one on trade in. No one wants to have this known/seen about their product.

Ed Ames
November 23, 2007, 10:37 PM
500rds in 2 years? :what:

I've put 500 rounds through a Ruger MkII or Hi-standard HB in one *day*. OK, that was usually with more than one shooter sharing the gun but still I usually brought a 500+rd carton of .22LR any time I took it shooting and considered myself lucky if I had any left over at the end of the day. $10 well spent. We put at least 10,000 rounds through that MkII and never had a hiccup. It's still going strong by the way and very accurate.

Anyway, I'm not too surprised about the failure (though I still can't get over the 500 rounds). That "big gun" slide is form over function. In order to make a full length slide light enough to cycle on a blowback .22 it must be a light thin metal. That's bad on something that slams around like a slide.

Slvr Surfr
November 23, 2007, 10:42 PM
I am fairly positive that Smith and Wesson will take care of the gun. I got away with a small cut on my cheek, which I am grateful was not worse. I will contact SW on Monday to see what they can do for me. I am a fan of SW products, and this will in no way persuade me from buying anymore of their products. I am not intending by no means to bash Walther/SW in any way, only to see if anyone else has had similar issues.

W.E.G.
November 23, 2007, 10:59 PM
Junk gun.

They ought to just recall them all and be done with it.

nwilliams
November 23, 2007, 11:01 PM
OMG that sucks!

Glad you're not injured sounds like the company owes you a new gun and a sincere apology.

I to have heard of this before, I used own that same model P22, never cared for it and now I'm even more glad I ditched it for something better.

The Lone Haranguer
November 23, 2007, 11:03 PM
Makes me want to run out and buy one. :rolleyes:

trueblue1776
November 23, 2007, 11:35 PM
Junk gun.

They ought to just recall them all and be done with it.

because you've heard of a handful of failures in five years on the web? :rolleyes:

firinginfenton
November 23, 2007, 11:45 PM
I'm happy to read that you are OK. And thank you for taking the time to upload the photos and the report.
I think I'd take the replacement gun and trade it for a Ruger MIII.

W.E.G.
November 23, 2007, 11:46 PM
I'll pass on the zinc model. Thank you very much.

At least companies like Jennings don't masquerade behind the names of (formerly) respected gunmakers like Walther.

jakeswensonmt
November 24, 2007, 01:44 AM
I've been saying for years that zinc guns have to be a bad idea, but this is the first time I've seen pix to backup that opinion!

Thanks and glad you weren't hurt! Send a letter to Walther and tell them that they need to buy you a new Ruger or Buckmark or S&W 41 to make up for your pain.

mrmeval
November 24, 2007, 02:58 AM
The slide is zinc? I thought it was aluminum.

1035 TOG
November 24, 2007, 03:08 AM
Reminds me of the all too common S&W 916A receiver failure.

There's no excuse for this type of failure, IMHO.

Slvr Surfr
November 24, 2007, 04:26 AM
I'm sure if I keep digging I'll find a few more. This guys gun broke in exactly the same place as mine. The only difference is his didn't fly off and smack him in the head!


http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96595

TimboKhan
November 24, 2007, 05:15 AM
Not to pump up my gun over the issues the OP had, but my Ruger MkII has shot a TON of rounds. My dad gave me a case of .22 ammo a couple of years ago, and I shot up half of it (with the help of friends and friends of friends) inside 6 months. It's no all gone, and I bet I have been through another 15 or so bricks of ammo since then.

I am not necessarily saying "Buy a Ruger", but I am saying that a break at 500rounds is probably not the norm. Also, for what it's worth, my dad has one of these little Walthers, and he says that a long and dedicated break in period is needed before they really hit their stride. Somewhere around 750 rounds, his little P22 started working like a champ, and it has never looked back.

Slvr Surfr
November 24, 2007, 05:34 AM
Folks, let me clear something up. I have personally only shot under 500rds through this gun. As I said in my first post I bought it used. I don't know how many rounds the original owner put through the gun before me. Either way the gun should not have failed as it did. I have found at least 3 other incidents of p22s failing as mine did. The average round count for the others was above 5K rounds. It appears as though Walther/SW is replacing the slides under warranty as they should. To my knowledge I am the only one that has had a slide actually separate while firing.

I am hoping that they will replace the slide on mine as well.

Here are links to the other slide breakages.

http://nebraskanews.blogspot.com/2007/05/walther-p-22-broken-slide.html

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96595

Soybomb
November 24, 2007, 06:04 PM
My understanding is umarex actually is in charge of the p22 and sell it under the walther brand. Its a shame because it doesn't do the walther brand any favors. That said this seems to happen to many of the cheap 22's out there today. I know I've seen several instances of the sig mosquito doing the same thing.

Mac Attack
November 24, 2007, 09:08 PM
Wow that is amazing that the slide split like it did.

I have owned a P22 for 4 years and have shot thousands of rounds through it. I have had many failures to lock the slide back on an empty magazine but I have not had a single FTF or FTE. Most of my shooting has been with a suppressor on my P22 so I don't know if that helped out or not. I know for certain that at one shoot myself and 3 friends fired 4 bricks of Wally World ammo through my P22 with attached suppressor without a hitch...not one FTF or FTE but a handful of failures to lock back.

I would send your P22 back to S&W and have them take a look at it. Gun's should not fail like that.

AK103K
November 24, 2007, 09:48 PM
I've seen another pic of a P22 that did the same, and I've also seen an early Mosquito with a can mounted(to a non factory threaded barrel) that also came apart in a similar fashion. Its my understanding that the can and the counterweights were mounted as such that the slide impacted them causing stress on the slide and the cracks.

Was your slide hitting the counterweight?

I have both the Mosquito(no can) and the P22(no counterweight), and at this point, well over 5000 rounds through the P22 and close to 4000 rounds through the Mosquito. So far, both guns have been flawless, other than the normal .22 ammo issues all .22's experience. I shoot mostly plain old Winchester Super X too.

makarovnik
November 24, 2007, 10:02 PM
Looks like the hole for mounting the front sight was the culprit. I often wonder about holes in the slide as a possible weak spot. I've seen a few aluminum alloy slides break near the muzzle like that. Hopefully S&W will beef that area up some in the future. Glad you're okay!

strat81
November 24, 2007, 10:31 PM
For the newbies:
This is why you ALWAYS wear eye protection.

Glad no one was seriously hurt.

kermit315
November 25, 2007, 02:32 AM
Seems like that all of these slide breakages that I have seen or heard about seem to occur on the target models. wonder if the front of that slide is hammering on the back of the compensator and causing them to break in the same spot?

glad my wifes hasnt done that, and hope it doesnt. I just have the standard model.

Slvr Surfr
November 25, 2007, 03:20 AM
The weakest portion of the slide is the hole where the front sight mounts. It seems as though the slide banging back and forth causes a lot of stress on that area. The front of the slide is the only portion that is physically held onto the gun. I know this to be true since the back of the slide is what flew off. The break that you see occured while shooting, not something that grew over time. As I've posted others have experienced the exact same issue. The break is occurring in the exact same place.

As for whether the slide was impacting the suppressor, I don't believe so. I haven't noticed any damage on the front of the slide that would say otherwise.

scurtis_34471
November 25, 2007, 10:27 AM
Junk gun.

They ought to just recall them all and be done with it.

I've got over 4000 rounds through mine and there is hardly a sign of wear. Its never been the most accurate thing in the world and it can be finicky about ammo, but its a fun little plinker.

Slvr Surfr
November 25, 2007, 04:14 PM
Folks,

I did look at the portion of the slide that meets against the suppressor. The slide does have marks on it where it appears to have bumped against the suppressor. I think this just lends to the poor design. I may ask SW to provide me with a new 3.5 inch barrel so I can avoid using the suppressor.

FieroCDSP
November 25, 2007, 07:52 PM
I agree that the P22 could have been designed, constructed, and machined better. However, if someone is wanting a 22 pistol that looks and feels like the center-fire pistols, you only have three choices: The Mosquito, the P22, or a conversion kit.

Slvr Surfr
November 25, 2007, 11:51 PM
Folks,

I took a picture of the scratching on the front of the slide and the back of the suppressor. It really doesn't look all that bad but give me your opinions.

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/helas_9/P22/PB250365.jpg

http://i42.photobucket.com/albums/e341/helas_9/P22/PB250368.jpg

AK103K
November 26, 2007, 09:18 AM
It looks like the slide was impacting the brake. From the other examples I've seen and the discussions that went along with them, it would be my guess that that was the cause.

I'm curious, since I dont have the longer barreled gun, how does the brake attach? Does it lock in place at a predetermined fixed position, or do you just slip it on the barrel and set screw it?

BAT1
November 26, 2007, 10:33 AM
I was going to get one, but not now. They look cool, but that's it. I heard that the ears wear the slide out too, causing it to launch. I sure wish SA or Kimber would make a .22 1911. They would capture the market.

Slvr Surfr
November 26, 2007, 10:59 AM
There is a small set screw that sits on top of the muzzle brake that screws down onto a predetermined spot on the barrel. That predetermined spot has a small divit drilled so that it marks where the set screw comes down onto it. The rest is held on by two bolts on the underside.

mikec
November 26, 2007, 11:46 AM
I'll pass on the zinc model. Thank you very much.


Recently I saw a picture of a SIG with a cracked slide and I also read about a BHP with a crack.

AK103K
November 26, 2007, 12:13 PM
A lot of things fail. If you shoot enough, sooner or later your going to encounter one.

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7d700b3127ccebc120128193e00000036100CYuWbdo5bsU

http://im1.shutterfly.com/procserv/47b7d700b3127ccebc121c95d82500000036100CYuWbdo5bsU

Geno
November 26, 2007, 12:25 PM
Wow! Just wow! You had to drop your jaw when you saw that chunk fall off of the slide.

Doc2005

AK103K
November 26, 2007, 12:53 PM
That 1911 wasnt mine, the MAC was. I also had an M1 go grenade. If pistols coming apart makes you nervous, try a rifle or things running real fast. :)

Bill B.
November 26, 2007, 06:07 PM
Personally even if they sent me a new replacement Walther P22 I would get rid of it ASAP. I sure would not take a chance on it happening again. I know alloy's and plastic have come a long way but I still prefer steel in most handguns.

MDW GUNS
November 26, 2007, 06:16 PM
I am sure, Walther will replace this firearm as well as Springfield will replace this 1911!
Both are good companies with good products!

Slvr Surfr
November 27, 2007, 08:31 PM
I called Smith and Wesson Monday. They are sending me a shipping label to send the gun back. I am guessing it should get here tomorrow or Thursday. I'll keep you guys updated with the progress.

Atarian
November 27, 2007, 10:42 PM
just my 2c but i love my p22 - had problems initially with the cheap lead nose winchester ammo, but switched to cci stingers and have probably 2500 rounds thru the gun with no problems. in fact, sportsmans warehouse had them on sale for $220 over thanksgiving so i bought two more. they claim that they can't keep the p22, certain springfields, ppk's, and some glocks in stock.

I was going to get one, but not now. They look cool, but that's it. I heard that the ears wear the slide out too, causing it to launch. I sure wish SA or Kimber would make a .22 1911. They would capture the market.

the only .22 cal 1911 i can remember was in boot camp. what a pos. then again i'm sure they were shot to hell. as far as kimber, i'm not paying a grand for a .22 1911. or any .22. but that's just me.

Chem Geek
November 27, 2007, 11:11 PM
I wonder how many have actually had the slide fail in this fashion (or any others)? Maybe 6? I've only see 3 or 4 reported on the interwebs.

Personally, I enjoy mine. Eats pretty much everything (550 for $9.96 is wonderful on a college budget), and doesn't give me trouble. I have around 6k rounds through it now. Maybe more. Then again I have the 3.4" model, maybe that's the secret? :)

MDW GUNS
November 28, 2007, 06:27 AM
I had a S&W 4006 20 years ago or when ever they first came out, which had a crack right along the fireing pin.
S&W replaced the whole gun!

deltacharlie
November 28, 2007, 07:25 AM
I called Smith and Wesson Monday. They are sending me a shipping label to send the gun back. I am guessing it should get here tomorrow or Thursday. I'll keep you guys updated with the progress.Please do report back what they do for you (replace or whatever) and about how long it takes to complete, am interested to read how S&W handles this.

MDW GUNS
November 28, 2007, 08:37 AM
Unless they send it back to Germany, a replacement slide would not have the proof marks and not the serial number.
I would not accept anything less then a new gun!

atblis
November 28, 2007, 09:05 AM
Wow, the cast zinc junk gun broke. :eek:

My friends did the exact same thing to him. I thought it was a total piece of crap before that, but now I know for sure.


A lot of things fail. If you shoot enough, sooner or later your going to encounter one.
Yes, it is just much much more likely to happen if you're shooting a P22.

TexasRifleman
November 28, 2007, 09:11 AM
For the newbies:
This is why you ALWAYS wear eye protection.

And a reminder for the oldies. THAT is surely the lesson of this, and I'm glad no one was hurt.

atblis
November 28, 2007, 09:18 AM
Looks like the hole for mounting the front sight was the culprit. I often wonder about holes in the slide as a possible weak spot. I've seen a few aluminum alloy slides break near the muzzle like that. Hopefully S&W will beef that area up some in the future. Glad you're okay!
I've seen two others that failed further back from that sight hole. Trying to dig the pictures up. I used to have them posted, but needed the webspace for something else. It is a Zinc alloy. Aluminum would be an upgrade.

I agree that the P22 could have been designed, constructed, and machined better. However, if someone is wanting a 22 pistol that looks and feels like the center-fire pistols, you only have three choices: The Mosquito, the P22, or a conversion kit.
You missed the best of the bunch. The CZ Kadet. All steel, very accurate. It has exactly the same dimensions and heft as a regular 75B. None of this mickey mouse zinc and plastic stuff.

jonboynumba1
November 28, 2007, 09:28 AM
I've had less than stellar performance from the walther P22's I've played with roll pins walking out where you couldn't engage thye safety (great design) barrels loosening up (really great design:uhoh:) Sights issues. I generally don't mess with them at the shop anymore...they aren't exactly flying off the shelf. S&W has dissapointed me in the service dept to many times to want anything they have anything to do with. They have some good products (revolvers mostly) but they are just such grabasstical pieces of whale doo-doo to deal with (along with sig...who should just generally be ashamed of themselves) that I generally choose not to sell any of their stuff (outside revolvers...2 of which I had to send back recently for cosmetic issues that should have been caught at the factory...an airweight that was obviously dropped and dinged up....and a 686 that looked like a used gun...not polished out worth a flip with chatter-marks on the frame (that should have been at the least polished out) 686's aint cheap either...you ought to get what you've always gotten in the past when you bought one. There I've vented....ahhhh I feel better ;)

bobaloo
November 28, 2007, 01:29 PM
Just wanted to add that I had exactly the same failure on mine last weekend. It had maybe 2K rounds of Federal bulk through it.

Guess I need to contact the manufacturer also, but I bought a Buckmark that's SO much nicer that I'd just sell the P22 anyway.

MDW GUNS
November 28, 2007, 01:37 PM
The CZ Kadet. All steel, very accurate.
Correct.
http://www.mdwguns.com/alter_stand/CZ75SD22.jpg

HisSoldier
November 28, 2007, 07:28 PM
Is that a fact that the slide is aluminum? I always figured that with plastic guns at least the slide was steel. Can't count on anyone using steel except for the barrel I guess.

I guess I didn't read to the end, no kidding, ZINC! Why would anyone knowingly buy a zinc gun?

Ed Ames
November 28, 2007, 08:17 PM
I'd be amazed if it was zinc. I'd bet money it isn't zinc.

Here's the problem: The designer wanted a blowback .22 where the whole slide moves. Blowback actions balance the weight of the breach block (the whole slide in this case) and the rearward force of the chamber pressure on the case (driving the case out and therefore the breach block back). Since .22 rimfire provides a fixed amount of rearward force the mass of the breach block must be pretty standard as well. You don't have a lot of wiggle room.

If you weighed that slide (or the parts of the slide) and weighed the breach block on a Ruger .22 pistol, a browning .22 pistol, a .22 semi-auto rifle, and so on, you'd find that they were all about the same weight.

So if you want it to be physically bigger, what do you do? Two choices: Thinner material, or less dense material.

If you wanted to make that slide out of steel it would need to be tin-can thin. You wouldn't be able to work the slide without denting it. Making the slide out of aluminum allows them to make the part thicker and therefore more rigid because aluminum is less dense. In fact the aluminum slide's metal can be 2-3 times as thick for the same weight. Thicker means you can squeeze it without crushing, you can bang it around without denting as often, etcetera.

How about zinc? Well, zinc weighs almost as much as steel but it isn't nearly as strong. Bad deal... if that was OK they would've just made the slide out of steel.

The problem is that even aluminum is too dense for the size gun they want to make. If they made the slide smaller (a partial slide, e.g. with an open top that shows the barrel) they could make it more solid (even in aluminum). If they had gone to a bolt in the back like most .22s use they could have made it from steel. As it is, they went for style.

atblis
November 28, 2007, 08:49 PM
I'd be amazed if it was zinc. I'd bet money it isn't zinc.

People have called S&W and asked. S&W said it was a Zinc alloy. So unless their CS people are misinformed (not unusual actually), it appears to be Zinc alloyed with something. Don't let the Walther name fool you. It is not made by Walther.

Here's something else for you to ponder. The P22 is actually based off of a PAK pistol that is intended for the European market. Basically, it is a blank firing pistol that's been converted to 22 rimfire. Ever wonder why the barrel has a rifling insert? I haven't been able to figure out which one came first, but I suspect the PAK pistol did.

Umarex makes the 9mm PAK pistol, and by all appearances the P22 as well. They are nearly identical.

Atarian
November 28, 2007, 09:21 PM
well whatever it is, a magnet does not stick to it, so there's not a whole lot of iron in there. even more off topic, are we forgetting the walther p38 in .22 cal? (the complete pistol - not the 9mm to .22 conversion kit). very nice .22.

http://p.38d.home.att.net/22lr/index.htm

Ed Ames
November 28, 2007, 09:28 PM
I just did some research... and yeah, I would've lost that bet. Appears to be molded (MIM) "zinc alloy".

On the other hand... Aluminum-zinc is a viable alloy (and less dense than pure zinc) with acceptable properties for MIM... and as I understand it a problem with cracking.

Zinc, huh? I'd say this gun is an example of VERY BAD engineering.

Funderb
November 28, 2007, 09:31 PM
zinc wouldn't break like that (perfect fracture line).
My bet is aluminum. It just wears out if thers is an impurity in it, and splits like wood around it.
Zinc has a tendency to splinter, stretch, or shatter before fracturing into clean peices.


sorry that had to happen to you, man.

Caimlas
November 28, 2007, 09:57 PM
Wow, that's a pretty serious defect! Glad you're OK; .22 might not be all that hot, but I have no doubt that it can injure seriously if it hits you in the right place.



I was actually going to get one of these, but my local dealer talked me out of it because he had more returns on these P22s than any other firearms sold from the shop, mostly because of FTF/FTE problems. He basically said they were made out of pot metal, and I didn't entirely believe him until now, after seeing your catastrophic slide failure.


Junk gun.

They ought to just recall them all and be done with it.

Those assessments aren't exactly fair. The P22 is a very, very common gun (particularly considering how long it's been out), and very few problems have been reported. Stuff like this happens to the best guns, and you'd be hard pressed to find a pistol for ~$300 and expect perfection - though for $300 the P22 comes pretty damn close.

I've had my P22 for about two years now, and I'd figure I and my wife have put approximately 200 rounds through it per week (sometimes not at all, sometimes 500+)- for a total around, I'd guess, 17,000-23,000 rounds (wow, more than I'd thought). That is a hell of a lot of shooting for a little .22. It is indeed starting to wear on contact points, though it is still mechanically sound.

That's not half bad for a $300-and-change .22 pistol made from aluminum!

Yes, it has some FTF/FTE, but no more than any other .22 semi-automatic I've seen - cheap .22 ammo is typically under-powered and crap. It's not a HD or CCW, so that's not such a concern - it's a range plinker. With $12/400 Remington "Game Loads" I can get through 'em all with only a handful of failures, most of which with the ammo/primers. I just avoid crap ammo (CCI Blazer comes to mind). And it still runs pretty damn well when dirty.

Glad Walther is honoring the repair/replacement on that piece.

atblis
November 28, 2007, 10:35 PM
I would wager that it is a Zinc Al alloy such as ZA27.

Sgt.Dusk
November 29, 2007, 12:24 AM
I was about to buy p22 a while ago just because it was cheaper than
cz122 sport. I'm glad I bought the CZ anyway. It is not solid steel like that kadet
shown above (1st reply, page 3)but still a nice piece. ...and its slide is not some toy alloy.

evan price
November 29, 2007, 01:51 AM
I have well over 6k rounds through my P22 with nothing wrong with it so far. I haven't even cleaned it in 1000 rounds.

Wow, somebody's gun somewhere broke so all of 'em are junk. Real intelligent. By that logic nobody would be driving any car or truck.

Sgt.Dusk
November 29, 2007, 02:03 AM
Wow, somebody's gun somewhere broke so all of 'em are junk. Real intelligent. By that logic nobody would be driving any car or truck

Good point

atblis
November 29, 2007, 09:33 AM
Wow, somebody's gun somewhere broke so all of 'em are junk. Real intelligent. By that logic nobody would be driving any car or truck.

Ordinarily, I'd agree with you. The problem is, that the "somebody's" is plural. This is not an isolated incident.
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=96595

I've yet to shoot a P22 that was reliable or remotely accurate. Then to top it off, they seem to be sporadically coming apart in people's faces, which includes my friends P22, which was the one I've shot the most.

So let's review
Atrocious accuracy (unless you get lucky or have low standards)
Feed and ejection problems common (unless you use expensive ammo)
Numerous other small problems and wear issues
and then to top it off
A slide that stands a much higher chance of coming apart in your face.

It's a shoddily constructed, poorly designed pistol. If you can't see that on your own, I don't know what else to tell you. Blinded by the "cuteness" I suppose.

As to why some people seem to get decent ones and others not so decent. It's a manufactured item, obviously intended to be made as cheaply as possible, even at the expense of functionality. You do not use zinc to make a slide because you care if the gun works. There is no reconciling that. One person gets lucky, the other person not so lucky but hopefully still has both their eyes, and remembers not to buy junk pot metal guns anymore.

HisSoldier
November 29, 2007, 11:45 AM
I'm sorry if it offends anyone, but I'm a purist materials snob. I have no appreciation of plastic or aluminum in a gun. In my opinion the use of plastic, aluminum and other non steel materials in handguns ( Other than the grip panels) points to one thing. The manufacturer wants to compete and make a profit, and the buyers are not discriminating enough to know the difference. Thirty five years ago only absolute junk guns were made using zinc. Now people buy them not even knowing what they are paying for. Heck, I didn't know! Looked like a real gun to me when I saw one yesterday. I knew the frame was plasticrud, but almost all the modern guns are. I wouldn't buy one, but I didn't have a clue the slide was zinc! People, please, lets start a reformation. Demand steel framed guns, with steel slides. If we don't vote against trash materials with our wallets the manufacturers will get more and more brazen in producing and selling junk!

FieroCDSP
November 29, 2007, 12:00 PM
HisSoldier...I have trouble understanding your extreme hatred for ploymer guns. Though everyone is entitled to their opinion and to buy what they want, to declare "anything but steel is crap" is extremely narrow-minded. I hope to be here the day you come across a polymer gun that trips your trigger so I can post this link as a reminder. :D

There's a gun for everyone out there. If someone wants to buy the P22, despite the seemingly low quality, that's their issue. Obviously they sell quite well, or they wouldn't be produced still. Also, there aren't that many slide breakages or something would have been done, by the maker or the demand of the people who bought them.

As was posted earlier, the breakage seems to happen due to impacting with the compensator on the 5" models. Okay, design issue, Smith is dealing with the guy, as they have the others, and is no doubt working to fix the manufacturing problem. Rather than recall all of the guns for a problem that isn't life-threatening (no injuries reported, and they would be), they are fixing them as they come up. It's the most cost effective way of doing things.

Seriously, comparing a P22 to a Jennings is overly exagerating the problems associated with the gun. After the first 500 rounds (break in), my P22 works better dirty than it does clean. No recent stove-pipes or fail to feeds. Perhaps I should turn it in for a broken one so I can complain as much as the nay-sayers expect me to?

TimboKhan
November 29, 2007, 12:11 PM
Demand steel framed guns, with steel slides. If we don't vote against trash materials with our wallets the manufacturers will get more and more brazen in producing and selling junk!


Your about 20 years to late with that rallying cry. People have been voting with their wallets on this issue for a long, long time now, and polymer framed guns are winning pretty handily.

HisSoldier
November 29, 2007, 02:03 PM
If you buy zinc guns you deserve what you get.

Ed Ames
November 29, 2007, 02:37 PM
Aluminum, polymer, and even zink are fine so long as the design is right. The problem here isn't the material per se, but the combination of material and style. Use exactly the same materials in a gun that is designed to *function* correctly and hang the apearance instead of designed to look like a "real" gun (with full size slide) and you are in good shape.

Look at that CZ Kadet... they tried to make it look like a centerfire pistol but drew the line at function. They compromised the appearance to make it work better. As a result it looks kinda goofy because the moving part is just the small bolt and the "slide" is fixed... but it'll last hundreds of thousands of rounds because they designed for function first. The P22, OTOH, looks like a centerfire pistol. The whole slide moves. Nice... except for reality.

Funderb
November 29, 2007, 02:45 PM
I think that the kadet looks really cool like that.
And the funstionality is great.
I'd buy one if I had $400 laying around.

ZeSpectre
November 29, 2007, 03:28 PM
Hate to say it but I had the same thing in the same place (fortunately mine didn't separate and go flying anyplace) at right around 600 rounds. Walther replaced it with a completely new gun which had it's own set of FTF issues so I sold that one and I've been done with that particular model since. Too bad, loved the way it looked and felt in my hand.

outofbattery
November 29, 2007, 04:24 PM
I'm sorry if it offends anyone, but I'm a purist materials snob.

Me too.I refuse to even ride in a car without chrome steel bumpers and wouldn't drink from a plastic cup if I was dying of thirst :)

KBintheSLC
November 29, 2007, 04:36 PM
I would have gone to the ER for an exam/documentation then proceeded to contact my attorney and file suit. This is downright lousy. Walther used to be an excellent German gun maker. Throughout the decades and multiple ownership transfers, their products have gone to the dumps. I bought a brand new PPK/S early this year that was very unreliable and poorly machined internally. I really don't know how S&W can put their name on such trash. On top of that, these are not cheap price wise. I would expect it out of a $200 gun from China. Not a US made $300-500 piece.

My advice, document any injuries you incurred (maybe visit your doctor). Save your images of the failure, and save some ammo from the batch you were using. Take all of this to your attorney and file suit. That may be the only thing that will get S&W to stop selling the garbage Walther suite or at least improve their QC.

Sorry about the rant but this really pisses me off. :(

HisSoldier
November 29, 2007, 05:14 PM
"I'm sorry if it offends anyone, but I'm a purist materials snob."

"Me too.I refuse to even ride in a car without chrome steel bumpers and wouldn't drink from a plastic cup if I was dying of thirst"

Actually I don't think of guns the same way I do cars. If the key turns the engine on and I get where I want to go that's fine.

Guns though, that's different. To me a gun is an heirloom, like artwork or fine silverware. I don't buy a gun the same way I buy even a micrometer. I've tried to think of it that way, just another tool, but with guns it just doesn't work for me. A car is a tool for me. A gun is much more.

Atarian
November 29, 2007, 09:38 PM
I see we have gone from a bashing of the P22 to a bashing of Walther in general. Let's see - Walther P38 - most advanced pistol of ww2; used with great success in tens of dozens of countries since, even today. Walther OSP .22 cal - used by too many Olympic winners to count. Replaced by Walther SSP - same results. Walther P4, P5, P88, P99, all highly rated, excellent 9mm pistols. Maybe we can get this thread back on track to the P22 'problem'. Oh, screw it. Let's get some lawyers involved! That's the American way.

HisSoldier
November 29, 2007, 10:28 PM
Well, as I said, I like my Walther PPK/S. If people want to buy plastic guns and aluminum guns and guns made of zinc it's their fault we have so many of them. If they want zinc guns who am I to enlighten them about what quality used to mean. Well, I'm someone who was here when zinc meant garbage, that's who.

Atarian
November 30, 2007, 12:29 AM
hissoldier - i agree with you - sort of. i would prefer a pistol made of all steel. maybe that's why i focus my collecting on ww2 firearms. i have some modern all-steel arms that have never failed me - s&w 586-1, 586-3, 686, springfield 1911a1, pp, etc. but i also appreciate the s&w model 59 (aluminum frame) and the walther p99 (polymer frame). those have never failed to work perfectly, either. i also have a p22 that functions perfectly. *in my opionion* it is the design that matters most. i don't think that anyone here would recommend a raven/jennings/bryco/jimenez pistol even though they are all-steel.

times change, for better or worse. i loved my '72 galaxie 500 (all steel - trust me!). but my '02 sentra does the job just as well, with a lot more plastic.

outerlimit
November 30, 2007, 02:48 AM
I was interested in them a few years ago when they first came out, but shortly after I found out they have a zinc slide, noway!!!

I stand by my decision..

AK103K
November 30, 2007, 05:34 AM
If they were as bad as the doom sayers all say, they would not be around.

If you based your decision on them, you missed out on a fun little gun. Your loss.

I own one, its an early one too. I also own a Mosquito. I have a couple of friends that own one or both of them. So far, none of us have encountered all these problems that we were supposed to. I'm not saying some people havent had issues, every maker has issues. I quit buying Springfield, Kimber, and Glock due to theirs. I may be in the minority with my experiences with them, but at least I have repetitive personal experience with them to help make my decision.

If you look back through most of the posts on these two guns, you will notice a trend. Most of those who own them seem to like them, and most of the negative complaints are repetitive ones, from a few vocal posters who seem to have a real problem with them and make it well known every chance they get.

If your interested in one, buy it. If it breaks, you can come here and bash it. If it doesnt, you might have some fun. I'm betting on the fun part, and hey, at least it aint a Springfield.....now theres a real POS! Yea boy, did you know.......:neener:

outerlimit
November 30, 2007, 08:45 PM
If they were as bad as the doom sayers all say, they would not be around.

Strange logic. But okay! ;)

I refuse to buy a gun made with zinc. Hi-Points with their zinc slides work as well. Well people say they do.. not the ones I've seen.. but anyways, getting back on track, if people will buy it, they will sell it. I'm just sorry to see Walther as it currently is today.

atblis
November 30, 2007, 09:51 PM
It's not really applicable to all Walthers. The P99 by all accounts is worthy of the Walther name.

Okiecruffler
December 1, 2007, 02:16 AM
Had a pistol do that to me once, but it was $65 Davis 380 after about 1000 rds and I wasn't terribly surprised.
The first 22 pistol we bought my wife was a P22. She wanted it because it looked cool. Reliablity wasn't terrible with the right ammo, but accuracy was mediocre at best. She finally got tired of it not performing the way our other rimfires did and traded it for a buckmark. Not as cool looking, but she's much happier.

Slvr Surfr
December 6, 2007, 03:24 PM
Folks,

SW just called me and left a message that my pistola was "repaired". I spoke to their smith that called and he told me that they believe these breakages are due to weak recoil spring allowing the slide to get battered when fired. It sounds like an excuse to me. I would be under the impression that the slide would take more of a beating if the spring was newer and was slamming the slide into battery with extra power. The way he made it sound I would have thought that he was talking about a 10mm round going off.

I asked if I had any options with this gun, since I told him that I felt that I could not trust this weapon since it had in fact broken apart and caused me "injury" albeit minor. I won't tempt fate again. He told me that he understood my hesitation and that only customer service would only be able to do anything further. He stated that he would have to send the gun off to them for any further resolution. I asked that he do that, and that they call me.

We'll see how round 2 goes. I don't feel that I can trust that gun anymore. I told the gunsmith that and he attempted to comfort me by telling me how many guns he has had self destruct on him. I could only reply by telling him that this is the only gun out of about 40 Ive owned that has failed in this manner. I'm not looking for any special kind of treatment. I was thinking that SW could keep the gun, and send me a voucher for the value of the gun. That would allow me to buy any other SW product. I'd still be out of pocket, and I would still be buying another SW product.
I don't think thats a bad request. Do you guys think that is unrealistic ????

atblis
December 6, 2007, 05:18 PM
For a while there they were also recommending shooting stingers or minimags out of them just to get them to function. Hmmm. :rolleyes:

Nightwing
December 6, 2007, 05:22 PM
I had one! Could never get the damn sites aligned. Finally sold it after sending it back to Smith & Wesson and having the barrel and the slide replaced twice!!!
Had a bad experience. Sad.... it seemed like it would be a ton of fun!

MDW GUNS
December 6, 2007, 05:34 PM
that my pistola was "repaired".

Ask CS if they just put a new slide on it.
If so, insist that it has the serial number on it and the German proof shoot markings.
If they asked why that is important to you, tell them you want to take the gun with you to Germany and can't fire it in Germany unless it has the proof markings!
E-mail me if you need more infos!

KevininPa
December 6, 2007, 06:37 PM
That's why I bought a Firestorm FS-22. Steel slide.

AK103K
December 6, 2007, 07:53 PM
I was thinking that SW could keep the gun, and send me a voucher for the value of the gun. That would allow me to buy any other SW product. I'd still be out of pocket, and I would still be buying another SW product.

I dont think they will have a problem with that. I had a problem with two S&W 940's when they first came out. Both failed within the first 200 rounds. I took the first replacement, and told them I did not want a 940 back the second time and to send me a replacement in .38, which they did.

For a while there they were also recommending shooting stingers or minimags out of them just to get them to function. Hmmm.
As far as I know, unless something has changed, both the Walther and SIG recommend Stingers or their equivalent for both pistols. This seems to be a big deal to some, but it is what the factory recommends for best results. They do give you two springs, so you can use ammo of different power levels, and so far, with both of my pistols, they work with pretty much anything I put in them using the spring that was installed when I bought them.

One thing I've seen more than a few times in comments is, the people complaining didnt have a clue there was another spring in the box, let alone ever tried it to see if it would solve their problems. So because people cant follow directions or recommendations from the factory, and then have problems, thats the guns fault. :rolleyes:

Nightwing
December 10, 2007, 01:22 PM
Welcome to Smith&wesson. Our weapons break from average use, and our company folds in the face of lawsuits from anti-gun groups! GO AMERICA.

Seriously though... I had a P22. send it to S&W twice. Both times they replaced the slide AND the barrel! Never could get it aligned. Gunsmith couldn't get it aligned closer than 2 clicks off to the right and 3 down at 20 feet!
Really hated that gun. It seemed like suck a good gun for shooting on a budget....but it was just no good.

Clipper
December 10, 2007, 02:23 PM
My wife's Phoenix HP.22 might be a POS, but it's an accurate, reliable POS (and only $190.00 with 2 barrels, case, cleaning kit and 2 mags)...Kinda glad she passed on the P-22!

Ragnar Danneskjold
December 10, 2007, 04:47 PM
One thing I've seen more than a few times in comments is, the people complaining didnt have a clue there was another spring in the box, let alone ever tried it to see if it would solve their problems. So because people cant follow directions or recommendations from the factory, and then have problems, thats the guns fault.

A second spring that comes with the P22? Not mine. Mine just had the one spring that was already in the gun.

hksw
December 10, 2007, 08:51 PM
One thing I've seen more than a few times in comments is, the people complaining didnt have a clue there was another spring in the box, let alone ever tried it to see if it would solve their problems. So because people cant follow directions or recommendations from the factory, and then have problems, thats the guns fault.

I also own both. Got my P22 some time in the early '00s about a year after it came out. After fixing the problem with the firing pin stop hitting the small hump on top of the frame, it has worked fine ever since. Mine, however, never came with a second spring. Nor have I ever read of anyone discussing their P22 here and on RFC about installing a different factory supplied spring into their gun. Since the gun never came with a second spring, I feel I can attribute the problem to the gun, that is, the problem is, "the guns fault". Could you post a photo of the second spring for yours? I've never seen one before.

massglockman
December 10, 2007, 08:56 PM
i hope u werent injured but holy craqp that sucks i hope it dont run in the family i got a p99 hope i have no problems

atblis
December 10, 2007, 09:03 PM
I believe it is the Mosquito that comes with two springs and as far as I can tell most people were aware of them.

For a while there both SIG and S&W were recommending stingers/minimags to get their S.P.O.C.s to work and it did seem to help.

AK103K
December 11, 2007, 05:15 AM
I'll have to dig out the box. I'll get a pic as soon as I find it.

PPGMD
December 11, 2007, 10:25 AM
I bought a brand new PPK/S early this year that was very unreliable and poorly machined internally. I really don't know how S&W can put their name on such trash.

Not only does Smith put their name on it, they make it in their factory.

Anyways my local range has a P-22 in it's rental case, it sees tens of thousands of rounds a year (cheap CCI Blazer), and it's rarely cleaned. My Walther P-22 has a few thousand rounds through it, mostly Federal Bulk Pack.

Sure it requires Minimags when you are breaking it in, but after the first couple hundred rounds it should function fine with cheap ammo. And the breakages seem very rare compared to the number of them out there.

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