Anyone CCW a Hi Power or other full-sized auto?


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LanEvo`
November 24, 2007, 03:02 PM
Hi, guys.

I'm moving to a country where there's a very good chance (approaching 100%) that I'll be able to legally carry within a few months time.

However, there is a very serious limitation in terms of firearms selection. Where I'm going, I will have easy access to certain full-sized autoloaders, especially ones manufactured in Europe.

From what I've seen the P35 Hi Power, CZ-75B, and Glock G17 are the most readily available (though quite expensive!). 1911 pattern firearms, which I'm most familiar with, are basically impossible to get. Besides that, I'm basically limited to 9mm ammo. What's worse, I'm limited to ball ammo since hollowpoints are illegal.

With that in mind, does anyone have experience carrying a full-sized service pistol? I'm leaning towards a Belgian-made Hi Power just because it's the closest thing to a 1911.

I've got a fairly slim build (6'1" and 180 lbs.) and I'll be in business suits or "business casual (i.e., slacks and a dress shirt) most of the time. Just wondering if CCW is even realistic in this scenario! Any P35 aficionados in the house? I'd appreciate any tips or advice you guys can share.

TIA

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Whirlwind06
November 24, 2007, 03:47 PM
Get a good IWB holster and a good belt.
I have carried the HP and I carry a Ruger P89 right now.
Not hard if you are willing too dress for it.

LanEvo`
November 24, 2007, 03:58 PM
I've never handled a Hi Power before. How much thicker is the grip compared to a 1911?

Not hard if you are willing too dress for it.That's part of my question. I'm limited in terms of my wardrobe. As I've described above, I'll be in a professional environment...so photographer's vests, 3" wide gunbelts, etc. wouldn't work ;)

Emre

Prince Yamato
November 24, 2007, 05:17 PM
I'd go for the Glock. It's the least obtrusive and won't show through your clothes. In addition, get an all-black holster. With both items all black, if you are ever accidentally "show" someone may just mistake it for a cellphone or something instead. If you are ALWAYS wearing a sport coat, a small of the back holster may work.

Vitamin G
November 24, 2007, 05:37 PM
While I think the glock is a fine weapon, I'd never own JUST a glock.

I have no experince with the CZ, but if thats the same as the EAA witness, its a great shooter.

Personally i'd pick the BHP. I feel that enjoying the time you spend plinking, is just as important as defense. When I shoot my glocks, I feel like i'm practicing. When i shoot the BHP, I feel like I'm enjoying myself (and getting the benefit of practice at the same time).


Edited to add : Though I've never held one, the "grip reduced" glocks may be just what you're looking for. A glock firearm with a 1911 angled grip. I may just send one of my glocks away, come to think of it.

LanEvo`
November 24, 2007, 05:44 PM
I'd go for the Glock. It's the least obtrusive and won't show through your clothes. Is that right? Glocks always struck me as rather blocky, so I assumed they'd be pretty hard to conceal. In my experience, the width of a handgun is probably the single biggest factor in concealability (one of the reasons I like 1911's fitted with slim grip panels).

Also, as I mentioned in the original post, the only Glock I would be able to get my hands on would be a full-sized G17. My impression is that it would be tricky to conceal under normal business attire.

Emre

RyanM
November 24, 2007, 05:45 PM
I've heard Hi-Powers have real durability problems. Even in 9mm, the lifespan of the gun is about 35,000 rounds, compared to 200,000+ for a Glock or 1911.

See if you can have a 9mm 1911 imported, maybe?

Vitamin G
November 24, 2007, 05:47 PM
I've heard glocks are made of ceramic and don't show up on metal detectors...

mec
November 24, 2007, 05:49 PM
I carry a fully sized 1911 in a Milt spars VMII with the optional clips that allow you to tuck a shirt in over it. It works well as long as the shirt isn't skin tight. It is a bit tedious getting dressed but once the shirt is tucked in, it is not hard to wear the rig all day. These things are made to order and take about 3 months to delivery.
http://www.gunblast.com/images/Cumpston_HidingHeavyweights/kramervert.jpg
Shown with loops rather than tuckable clips

RyanM
November 24, 2007, 05:49 PM
Uh huh. Except the 35,000 figure is from an actual, reliable source, who knows what he's talking about, and works closely with several law enforcement agencies, who've gone through a lot of handguns. Doctor Roberts, on tacforums.

In 9mm:

Beretta 92 - 20,000 rounds
BHP - 35,000
SIG - 60,000
Glock - 150,000-200,000+

LanEvo`
November 24, 2007, 05:53 PM
See if you can have a 9mm 1911 imported, maybe?I wish!

The country I'm moving to has laws that strictly control firearms importation. I'm limited to a small handful of legal firearms that I can obtain through normal channels. Of the available handguns, I have a choice between full-sized 9mm duty guns or mouseguns chambered for .22 LR, .32 ACP, and the occasional .380 auto.

As far as the duty guns go, the FN Hi Power, Glock G17, and CZ-75B (plus a Turkish-made clone) are pretty much all I will be able to get my hands on.

Vitamin G
November 24, 2007, 05:53 PM
Wasn't disputing the numbers, I was implying that it would be more helpful to the OP to have cited data, rather than "Someone told me once..."

Sorry for the confusion.


LanEvo: if you're a big fan of the feel of the 1911 style feel, look at the instructions brownell's has for altering the grip angle. Grip angle and lack of real safety are my only 2 glock complaints, and the safety is only superficially minor.

LanEvo`
November 24, 2007, 05:58 PM
Uh huh. Except the 35,000 figure is from an actual, reliable source, who knows what he's talking about, and works closely with several law enforcement agencies, who've gone through a lot of handguns.Realistically, I will be getting nowhere near 35K rounds. Civilians are limited in how much ammo they can procure in a given year...and it's an absurdly low number (on the order of 100 rounds of ammo per year).

Of course, you can buy more ammo through *ahem* "alternate channels" at an exorbitant price. But I'm not going to be burning through boxes and boxes of ammo each week the way I used to do here in the US.

Autolycus
November 24, 2007, 06:15 PM
So why are you so afraid to list the country you are moving to?

LanEvo`
November 24, 2007, 06:20 PM
Sorry. It's Turkey.

It's not that I'm afraid. I just didn't think anyone would care! And I certainly didn't think that anyone here would know anything about Turkish firearms laws: they've been hard enough for me to track down and understand even though I speak the language!

Incidentally, one problem with Glocks is that they're quite expensive in Turkey. A used G17 will run arond $3500 USD. A new one is closer to 5 grand. And my understanding is that the local gunsmiths have very limited experience with Glocks. In contrast, they have been producing CZ clones for years. There are plenty of 'smiths who can work on Browning designs.

I'd hate to get stuck with a high-priced paperweight if I invested in a Glock and something were to go wrong.

macadore
November 24, 2007, 06:29 PM
The CZ RAMI is similar to a 1911 and a little smaller.

http://czusa.net/product_detail.php?id=48

8830
November 24, 2007, 06:43 PM
The Hi-Power or the CZ should work fine with your size and suit and they are both very reliable pistols and the CZ can also go single action. Just find a good holster for the one you choose. I've had good luck with Galco Fletch and Desantis Speed Scabbard or Thumb break Scabbard. IWB holsters never worked well for me so I've always stuck with OWB or shoulder holsters. If you use a shoulder holster just make sure your suit coat is tailored around it to help prevent "printing".

hank327
November 24, 2007, 06:54 PM
The Hi-Power will conceal just fine. The slide is much narrower than the slide of a 1911 and the grip is only a little thicker. I've carried my Hi-Power concealed with no problem with an IWB holster and a 1 1/4" leather gunbelt that I also use as a dress belt. As for durability goes, the Hi-Power is durable enough. The CZ is also an excellent choice though it is a little larger than the Hi-Power.

dogtown tom
November 24, 2007, 07:06 PM
Prince Yamato: I'd go for the Glock. It's the least obtrusive and won't show through your clothes...

WIDTH
The only place where a Hi Power could possibly be wider & fatter than a Glock is the grip. The standard factory wood slabs on BHP's make it all of 35mm wide, whereas factory nylon contour grips and almost all aftermarket wood grips don't exceed 30-32mm. The Glock grip will never be less than 33mm. The Glock grip comes in one basic choice, BHP grips can be had thick or thin, with or without checkering, rubber, aluminum, wood, nylon and with or without thumbrest.

Where the HP wins hands down is the width of the slide & frame. There is simply no comparison on "slimness" between a Hi Power and a Glock. The fat, blocky slide gives Glock it's nickname.

Carry IWB and you'll immediately notice the advantage of a Hi Power.

LENGTH
HP is longer by about an 1/2". If carried IWB this is inconsequential.

HEIGHT
Hi Power is shorter by about 1/2".

*************************************

It is quite likely that the Hi Powers you will see in Turkey will be copies made by FEG. (The "original" Hi Power is made by Fabrique Nationale of Belgium. John Browning did some of the early design work hence, "Browning's Hi Power".) The FEG Hi Power copy seems to be pretty durable. Be aware that FEG produces several "variations" of the Hi Power- some are double action, some bear no resemblance to the FN Hi Power, and some do not accept real HP magazines. I believe the HP clone is called the FEG PJK9.

joffe
November 24, 2007, 07:19 PM
Slightly off-topic, but would you mind sharing the Turkish gun laws? It's always interesting to hear about slightly less anti-gun countries in Europe, the laws are rarely laid out in a practical, easy-to-find format.

LanEvo`
November 24, 2007, 07:38 PM
The standard factory wood slabs on BHP's make it all of 35mm wide, whereas factory nylon contour grips and almost all aftermarket wood grips don't exceed 30-32mm. The Glock grip will never be less than 33mm. The Glock grip comes in one basic choice, BHP grips can be had thick or thin, with or without checkering, rubber, aluminum, wood, nylon and with or without thumbrest.

Where the HP wins hands down is the width of the slide & frame. There is simply no comparison on "slimness" between a Hi Power and a Glock.That is very helpful. Thanks! Based on what you and hank327 wrote, it sounds like a P35 with slimmer grips would be about as easy to conceal as a 1911 Government Model with regular grips. Is that so?

HEIGHT
Hi Power is shorter by about 1/2".That also helps. Slide thickness, grip thickness, and grip length seem to be pretty critical when it comes to IWB carry.

It is quite likely that the Hi Powers you will see in Turkey will be copies made by FEG.Honestly, I'm not sure. I "think" I can get genuine FN Hi Powers there. But you may be right. BTW, is there a downside to the Hungarian gun? I imagine the price is probably lower. But I'd definitely be willing to spend more for the FN if I can get it.

Emre

LanEvo`
November 24, 2007, 08:06 PM
Slightly off-topic, but would you mind sharing the Turkish gun laws? It's always interesting to hear about slightly less anti-gun countries in Europe, the laws are rarely laid out in a practical, easy-to-find format.I'm still learning myself. From what I've learned so far, there are two types of licenses: a license to "own" and a license to "carry." The license to own is given to pretty much any citizen who asks for it. It allows you to keep any firearm (including handguns and mag-fed semi-auto rifles) in your home or place of business. It also allows you to purchase ammo, up to a maximum limit per year.

The license to carry is tough to get. There are certain professions that are considered "high risk" (jewelers, bankers, judges, etc.) and they can get carry permits fairly easily (that's how I'm eligible). Like many US states, you need to show some sort of reason beyond "self defense," which means that many law-abiding citizens cannot carry legally. As you'd expect, that means an awful lot of people carry illegally. From what I understand, getting caught carrying without a license isn't exactly the end of the world...though I personally would never test this theory!

There are some quirks. Almost all of these quirks have to do with protecting the Turkish arms industry from foreign competition. First, you are limited in terms of ammo. You can only buy ammo produced within the country. That means finding stuff like .357 mag and .45 acp is practically impossible (let alone anything exotic). Hollowpoints appear to be illegal (but I haven't been able to confirm this yet). The strange thing is that civilians are limited to something like 100 rounds of ammo per year. As I alluded to earlier, there seem to be ways to access more if you are motivated to do so.

As for firearms, again, the government protects the Turkish arms industry. There are Turkish CZ-75 clones made by Sarsilmaz (the same models Armalite is now importing into the US as the "AR-24"), which are very widely available. Kirikkale produces some H&K rifles under license (like the MP5 and H&K 33) as well as a handgun that appears to be based on the Walther PPK. Lots and lots of companies produce shotguns and sporting rifles.

Imported handguns can be found, but prices are ridiculous and most are used. A modern H&K or Glock will run over $3000 in most cases. A lot of this seems to be driven by the "Hollywood appeal" of owning a plastic gun. S&W revolvers change hands at very high prices, and .38 spl and .357 mag ammo is scarce. But people snap them up when they hit the market. European Hi Powers and CZ-75B's turn up fairly regularly and are priced well below what a plastic fantastic would go for.

Maximum1
November 24, 2007, 08:52 PM
It sounds like you're saying one can't carry concealed a sub-compact semi-auto? How strange...They'll allow you to carry but don't want it too concealable?

LanEvo`
November 24, 2007, 09:17 PM
It sounds like you're saying one can't carry concealed a sub-compact semi-auto? How strange...They'll allow you to carry but don't want it too concealable?No, not at all. Part of the problem is that I'm trying to translate Turkish words into English...and maybe doing a poor job of it! If you get a "license to carry a weapon" (Silah Taşıma Ruhsatı), then it must be concealed. The laws are similar to "CCW" laws in the USA.

It's tough to get a carry license, so many people choose to carry illegally. As always, some citizens will choose to ignore illogical laws that restrict their fundamental civil liberties.

As for the sub-compact autos, they are available...but not in "proper" calibers. If you want a 9mm (the only reasonable S.D. caliber you can easily get your hands on), then you're pretty much forced to carry a full-sized duty gun. The main reason for this appears to be the fact that the Turkish handgun industry primarily deals with military and police contracts, so duty guns are their bread and butter. Since the Turkish government tends to protect Turkish industry by giving them monopolies, that means you don't have easy access to imports, which are generally better suited for concealed carry than handguns manufactured in the home market.

Overall, carry licenses are tough to get. I imagine the market for self-defense oriented pistols is rather small compared to the military/police markets. That's probably why the Turkish small arms manufacturers don't bother spending time and money on compact autos.

dogtown tom
November 24, 2007, 09:31 PM
Another fine handgun to consider is the Beretta/Stoeger Cougar. Originally produced in Italy, Beretta discontinued them under their name and now has them manufactured by Stoeger (who is owned by Beretta) in Turkey.

makarovnik
November 24, 2007, 09:38 PM
Oh yeah! Especially in the wintertime.

fishingjld
November 25, 2007, 03:02 AM
yeah i carry a p35 feg clone. i am 5'10" and pretty big guy. i use a clip draw and stick it behind my left hip since i am a lefty. if i were a smaller guy in your case i would go with an iwb holster and since you will be in suits it should be VERY easy to conceal. good luck

jd

A.ENGIN IDEMEN
November 25, 2007, 03:41 AM
LanEvo,

In a few months Stoeger will give MKEK some amount of .40SW Cougars, and the ammo offered for the pistol will be 180 gr American Eagle FMJ.
The NIB Stoeger Cougar sells approximately 1500 USD. You may get 200 rounds of ammo for each pistol with you. But if you want to make extensive amount of practice, you may shoot as much as you want at the range of MKEK, where the pistols are being sold. There are also private ranges in different provinces, but all of them are closed ranges since the open ones are not allowed.

The NIB pistol prices are in USD; HKP2K 3600, HK USPc 3500, P226/228 4000, HK P7M13 3800, P229R Two-Tone, P220 3500, P225 3400, Walther P99 3500, P99c 3500, SteyrM9A1 3000, SteyrS9A1 3000, HS2000/XD 1700, BHP Practical 3200.
Glocks are not being imported by the government facility, so they can only be bought from private importers, but you can not buy a G19 under 4500 USD.
You may consider domesticly manufactured Sarsılmaz pistols. They have various amount of compact models. The prices will not exceed 1500 USD.
So, there is no need to get ripped off, you may get a .40SW Cougar, 9mm XD or a compact Sarsılmaz, and get your job done with a reasonable cost. If you insist on a BHP since you are accustomed to the manual of arms of a single action pistol, you can get a second hand MKIII for about 2000-2500 USD. It is one the most widely used pistols in our country, spares and accessories are easy to get.

On the other hand, I am sure that it will not be easy for you get a carry permit unless you come with a diplomatic mission, maybe impossible.
As a private citizen, I rearrenge all the paper work for my permits in every five years. All the paper work is arrenged seperately for each firearm you want to hold. After the security investigation, I must get a health report assigned by five different specialists, ophtalmologist,oto-rhino-larengeologist, neurologist, psychiatrist, and finally and internist. For example, someone with colorblindness can not get any permission concerning firearms.
The tax must be paid for a carry permit is approximately 1500 USD for five years. If you want to take a carry permit for two different pistols, then you have to pay 3000 USD tax. The amount of tax must be paid for each firearm to hold it in your home is 500 USD for five years. In every five years, all the paper work is done from the beginning and additional taxes are being paid for the next following five years.
A shooter who does not have a carry permit must get a permit from his/her local police agency every time he/she goes to a range or a gunsmith. Even if you have a carry permit for one of your pistols, again you have to get a permission for the pistols which does not have a carry permit.
If you are caught with a pistol with just a '' have it in your property'' permit, it is taken as an illegal weapon, you take a considerable amount of money punishment instead of a postponed prison punishment, with loosing all your rights concerning firearms, and your weapon is taken under goverment property.

When you come to Turkey, you may send a message to me, and I will be glad to help you about any kind of concerns you will have.Did I mentioned I live in People's Republic of Turkey:(?
Regards.

Will Fennell
November 25, 2007, 08:40 AM
Nothing like good intel from someone "one the ground".....

I regularly carry a custom FN HP, and find that it is as easy, or easier to conceal comfortably than my Commander sized 1911's. the more I shoot my HP's the more I like/trust/carry them. With good sites, good trigger, and good thumb safety, they are EASY to shoot well. The only thing a 1911 shooter has to get used to is that the trigger re-set is quite a bit longer.

If I were in your shoes, and with the info provided, I would purchase in advance a GOOD IWB and matching dress belt[and mag pouch] for a HP, a set of SPEGAL grips for a HP[nothing I've found matches them for slimness and good feel], or alternately a set of Crimson Trace BHP grips. You might not have these choices in Turkey.

Also consider, a Cylinder and Slide "No Bite" drop in Hammer Sear set and thumb safety that you could have fitted to your HP once you get to Turkey. Ditto a good set of Sites like Hienie's[my favorite] or Novaks.

On thing about current production MKIII's and FN HP's, they WORK, right out of the box, and are generally quite accurate. A great website for HP's is Stephen Camps "Highpowers and Handguns".....don't have the exact website at my fingertips, but google is your friend.

The Lone Haranguer
November 25, 2007, 09:21 AM
I carry a fully sized 1911 in a Milt sparks VMII with the optional clips that allow you to tuck a shirt in over it.
I think something like this might be your best option for the times when you are not wearing your suit coat. And don't be afraid to get more than one holster.

These things are made to order and take about 3 months to delivery.
When did you get yours? I ordered a Watch Six a couple of weeks ago and Marty said a five- to six-month wait. ;)

Back to the actual topic. I've lugged around a steel Commander-sized 1911 and do not find the sheer weight bothersome. The secret is a good gun belt. A Wilderness five-stitch is not going to work for you in your social situation. But all the holster makers also make leather dress gun belts. A dress belt not made to carry guns is not going to be stiff enough to support the weight of a gun. I am very fond of my own from Jim Speidel, the Beltman. (http://thebeltman.net) I suggest a 1 1/2-inch tapered to 1 1/4" at the front, and/or a straight 1 1/4" for when your coat is off. (Again, don't be afraid to get more than one belt.) The Beltman also offers seven holes 3/4 inch apart instead of the usual 5 x 1" for more "fine tuning."

As far as your gun choices, the BHP and CZ are going to be slimmer than the "Block." ;) The Glock 19, if you can get it over there, is much smaller than the 17 but still holds 15 rounds.

BHPshooter
November 25, 2007, 10:42 AM
Yep, I carry a BHP all day, every day. Mine is lightly customized (mag disconnect gone, tritium Novaks), and I plan to have it hard-chromed by Tripp's.

Personal preference is a big thing. The Hi Power, to me, is the perfect handgun. Nothing fits me as well as it does.

Were I in your position, I would get my hands on each of them and choose whichever felt better to you.

Good luck,
Wes

LanEvo`
November 25, 2007, 12:29 PM
Hello, Engin.

Thanks so much for the incredibly helpful info! I can see that I was off the mark regarding a whole lot of stuff. I've been having quite a hard time identifying the relevant laws. Your post helped to clear up some of my misconceptions

The NIB pistol prices are in USD; HKP2K 3600, HK USPc 3500, P226/228 4000, HK P7M13 3800, P229R Two-Tone, P220 3500, P225 3400, Walther P99 3500, P99c 3500, SteyrM9A1 3000, SteyrS9A1 3000, HS2000/XD 1700, BHP Practical 3200.That's good to know. If the H&K P7M8 is readily available and cost is similar to a Hi Power, then that is definitely an option to consider.

You may consider domesticly manufactured Sarsılmaz pistols. They have various amount of compact models. The prices will not exceed 1500 USD.I have handled the Sarsilmaz Kilinc. I was quite impressed. Quality seemed slightly better than the CZ-75B, which is a firearm I quite like.

On the other hand, I am sure that it will not be easy for you get a carry permit unless you come with a diplomatic mission, maybe impossible.I've been told that I have a reasonable shot at getting a permit by someone who seems to know what he's talking about. But you never know until you put the application together.

A shooter who does not have a carry permit must get a permit from his/her local police agency every time he/she goes to a range or a gunsmith.I'm hoping there are pistol ranges in the Istanbul area that rent pistols in that case. Travelling to Ankara to use the MKEK facility seems a bit impractical ;)

When you come to Turkey, you may send a message to me, and I will be glad to help you about any kind of concerns you will have.Did I mentioned I live in People's Republic of Turkey?Thatnk you very much. I certainly will do so. I'll be moving to Istanbul in mid December.

A.ENGIN IDEMEN
November 25, 2007, 01:28 PM
Sorry for the double post.
Best.

A.ENGIN IDEMEN
November 25, 2007, 02:28 PM
Evo,
If you will stay in İstanbul, your NIB choices will be limited with the Stoeger and Sarsılmaz. If you would like to get a foreign design NIB, you will have to make at least a one day journey to Ankara. I do not advice you to try to get a second hand or LNIB / NIB pistol in İstanbul, since the dealers are asking incredible amounts of money, you must add at least the half of the prices I gave you. Also the ammo and pistol rental prices in private ranges are incredibly high in İstanbul.I do not want a guest to be robbed by opportunity hunters.

As for the HKP7, only the M13 model is available.

Sarsılmaz Kılınš is a full size service model. Hanšer is a compact version with lighter frame options, shorter slide and 13 rounds capacity. If you are familiar with the EAA Tanfoglios or Baby Eagle pistols, all the technical details are almost exactly the same other than the external appearance.Additionally they all have a frame mounted safety with condition one option which you like I suppose.

If you decide on a BHP, I will advice you to take the words of Will Fennell. You can only get Pachmayr or Hogue aftermarket grips in our country. They are pretty bulky for CCW practice. Buttler Creek grips used to be imported when they used to be Uncle Mike's, but they are not available now. So I advice you to bring a set of Navidrex or Spegel delrins with you.

If you are not satisfied with the out of the box trigger pull of the BHP, bring with you a Wilson Combat spring set which contains a 26 lbs mainspring and 18 lbs recoil spring. The magazine safety is easy to remove and will not give you any law legislations. A no-bite C&S hammer is not a must, but if you are concerned about this issue, it will be hard to find a T series hammer in İstanbul, so take a spare hammer with you. All these modifications can be made by yourself easyly.

Do not try to bring a set of CT laser grips, they are illegal, may be held at customs. All kinds of tactical adds are illegal to civilians, including flash lights. You may bring a set of drop in Meprolights or Trijicon night sights with you. Novak's or Heine will be hard to install.

If you do want a Kydex or a similar kind of holster, only Fobus is available in our country and they are at least 45- 50 USD. And the ones for the BHP are not so much usefull. But, quality leather holsters are much more cheaper than US.
Again when you depart, inform me. I live in a province near to Ankara, but sometimes I travel to İstanbul . I will be glad to have an overseas quest fallen out of a forum.
Regards

BHPshooter
November 26, 2007, 03:00 PM
Wow, and I thought BHPs were expensive here. :eek:

Wes :uhoh:

LanEvo`
November 26, 2007, 03:46 PM
Wow, and I thought BHPs were expensive here. :eek:Taxes are a big killer in places like Turkey. You should see the price of buying an imported car! You can easily pay as much as the price of the car itself just in taxes and duties. And fuel is in the $4-5 per gallon range.

OTOH, taxes on stuff like alcohol and tobacco is pretty mild. And income taxes are much lower than what we pay around here.

HorseSoldier
November 26, 2007, 04:56 PM
From the price side of things, the domestic CZ clones sound like a winning idea.

I've carried a High Power with an IWB holster with no real problem, so the mechanics should not be an issue. Sounds like the price will be, though.

Bones11b
November 26, 2007, 06:16 PM
I can't speak for the BHP having never handled one. I have carried both Glocks and CZ 75's though. The CZ wins my vote hands down. It conceals easier on my body type (tall and slim), though I don't have the exact dimmensions for comparison. I fed my CZ plenty of 9mm from plenty of different ammo manufacturers and lots and it never failed to fire and or feed properly. Also under extreme circumstances the CZ can be used as a hammer of sorts, don't even ask :rolleyes:

GaryArkansas
November 26, 2007, 07:19 PM
If you're in Turkey - get a Sarsilmaz - they're great guns (CZ Clones), made in an ISO 9001 factory on CNC machines.

LanEvo`
November 26, 2007, 07:34 PM
Yeah, those Sarsilmaz pistols start to look pretty good when you factor in price!

I've had a CZ-97B (.45 ACP) for 9-10 years now. It's been dead reliable and supremely accurate. So, I'm definitely a CZ fan. I just figured the Hi Power would be slimmer, therefore easier to conceal.

dogngun
November 27, 2007, 10:05 AM
BHP.
Easy to conceal, reliable accurate shooter, parts,mags, etc readily available.
Many armies carried the BHP for a long time, there is no reason to think it will be less durable or reliable for you.

I carried one for several years, then a full size S&W Model 59, now a full size 1911, along with several 4" revolvers. If you want to carry it, there is always a way.

Suggest you try to handle as many of your choices as you can...what I like may not suit you.
For example, IMO, Glocks suck.

mark

Trebor
November 27, 2007, 03:09 PM
You should definitely invest in a good quality "dress" gun belt while you are in the states. There are many options out there while you are in the U.S. so take the time to find something that looks good with your wardrobe, yet is designed to carry a gun. Check out the options offered by the custom holster makers and also sources such as "the Beltman."

If it were me, I'd also get two high-quality leather IWB holsters while I was still in the U.S. I'd get one for a Browning High Power and the other for the CZ-75. Those seem to be your two most likely options and that way you're set for either gun. Just sell the spare holster that you don't need once you are in Turkey. I'm sure you could make enough on that to cover the cost of both holsters.

Actually, what you should probably do is bring a variety of carry options with you. A couple holsters, a good quality belly band, maybe a large Smart Carry. Get them in the U.S. while they are easy to get and you'll have more options for when you are in Turkey. You never know exactly what's going to work until you try and it's going to be harder and more expensive to get that stuff in Turkey then in the states.

I like the Milt Sparks Versa Max II for carrying larger guns. If you can wear any sort of suit coat or jacket it will hide the larger guns well. I'd get one for the CZ and a second one for the HP. While you can fit the HP gun in the CZ holster, the fit isn't as good, and it's better to have the exact holster made for that model. Spring for a single set of the kydex clips that you can use with either holster and you are set.

The only problem is the Milt Sparks VM 2 is always backordered. I think a company called Lightning Arms or somesuch can get some if you are willing to pay a little more. I've had good luck posting "WTB" ads in various gun forums and shaking loose some near new VM 2's in the past, so you could try that as well.

rellascout
November 27, 2007, 03:14 PM
I carry a BHP all the time.

http://members.cox.net/rsegal1/wildbhp2.gif

No issues. I personally do not like IWB. I have had Milt Sparks VMIIs, kramer etc.... and I just cannot do it.

Currently my BHP rides in a Rafters OWB like this:

http://raftersgunleather.com/HOLTSERS/6-22/s11%200%20BS%20w%20BlkA.JPG

You need a good sturdy belt. Not a dress belt IMHO but a double reinforced one made for carrying a gun. Like one from this guy.

http://www.thebeltman.net/

markh
December 8, 2007, 03:22 PM
I carried a P-35 for a while with absolutely no problems. I am about 5'10" 170lbs. No one ever knew.

LegalAlien
December 8, 2007, 04:36 PM
Trying to find the Thread . . but somewhere here in THR recently there was a thread started by the marketing guy for some new Turkish firearm . .even had some Youtube videos with full auto pistols . .ifI find it I will link it here for you :)

Foundit - here it is
http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=320322

Pilot
December 8, 2007, 04:42 PM
I CCW a BHP on occassion. Its very slim and conceals well. Mine has been 100% reliable and is my most accurate centerfire handgun.

bobaloo
December 8, 2007, 09:21 PM
My everyday carry is a Belgian Hipower in .40. The reason, I shoot it better than any other gun I've ever tried. I've got about 20,000 rounds through mine and it's like new, can't imagine ever wearing it out, but most of them are cast bullets and they're easy on the barrel.

I see someone else mentioned it, but I'm also going to say if you go with the Hipower get a set of the Navidrex thin grips. They're not pretty, but they're incredibly function. Thin and your hands will love them. I got rid of my pretty cocobolo grips for these plain black ones, it hurt, but they work so much better.

Even the .40 Hipower is relatively slim and easy to carry, just get a good wide, thick belt to support the weight and you won't notice it.

bigmike45
December 8, 2007, 09:25 PM
9mm Browning Hi Power in a Tucker HF1
http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f43/mike_seale/HPTUCKERF.jpg

SCmarksman
December 9, 2007, 12:25 AM
Interesting discussion. Just my two cent's worth....

A couple of years ago, I had the "pleasure" of trying out copies of the BHP and PPK made by FEG. Both had serious feeding problems. The PPK, in particular, jammed really, really badly. I didn't think I'd be able to resolve it without resorting to tools. I'd stay away from anything made by FEG unless I had no other choice.

Josh Aston
December 9, 2007, 01:07 AM
Get your suits sized slightly big, not so much that it looks tacky, just enough to make it look comfortable, and any of the pistols you mentioned will disappear.

Bartholomew Roberts
December 9, 2007, 07:07 PM
I regularly carry a Browning Hi-Power, including in business attire. I'm also about the same size as you (a little heavier). I also carry a Glock 26 on occasion.

IMO, the only practical way to carry in business attire is IWB, either in a tuckable holster or a belly band of some sort. The Glocks aren't great for this because they are too blocky/fat and you can spot them by the bulge in the beltline even with a cover garment.

The CZ75 and Browning Hi-Power are both better from the bulk perspective because the rounded, lugged slide lockup lets the slide be a little slimmer and keeps the beltline bulge at a minimum. The downside is as all steel pistols, they are a little heavier and may sag in a belly band.

I use the same Milt Sparks Versa-Max II holster that somebody mentioned earlier in the thread for carrying the Hi-Power. It works very well if you can wear an untucked shirt, sweater or a suit jacket. It also works as a tuckable holster, although you need about a 1.5" belt to conceal the kydex clips and the tuckable clips are less comfortable. It also requires more effort to put your shirt on over it; but you can get used to it. You might also want to bring a shirt just for practicing since the clips can be hard on your shirts if you practice a draw under time stress.

I'd go with the CZ75 or BHP in a VMII for what you are describing. The other option is a belly band that can handle a full-size pistol; but those have some compromises as well.

bratch
December 9, 2007, 10:14 PM
The BHP is by far the easiest full size for me to carry. This is for one reason, the grip is shorter. My only printing problems come from the grip. I have to carry a CCO 1911 for this reason.

jon_in_wv
January 21, 2008, 10:01 AM
A couple of years ago, I had the "pleasure" of trying out copies of the BHP and PPK made by FEG. Both had serious feeding problems. The PPK, in particular, jammed really, really badly. I didn't think I'd be able to resolve it without resorting to tools. I'd stay away from anything made by FEG unless I had no other choice.

FEG made several type of guns based on the HP design. The PJK-9HP is a faithful copy and is equal in quality to nearly any other HP made. I have one that has been 100% reliable since day one. It shoots 4 inch groups at fifty yards quite easily. The FEGs have a decent following and a pretty good reputation. I wouldn't let one testimony condemn the lot.

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